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Summer riots/protests damage & tactics documentation thread (no politics, please)

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4 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

I am simply trying to get you to say what you are thinking, so that I can know what it is. Can we start with the thumb - why do officers place their thumb in the same spot on every car in every traffic stop?

In case they are abducted/incapacitated, there's physical evidence on the car.

Does it actually happen regularly? No. But they are scared of it.

I have no idea what point Baba is trying to make, and he probably doesn't either.

And honestly it sounds like a stupid urban legend that wouldn't work well.

Edited by bad_teammate

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1 minute ago, Celery Man said:

I am simply trying to get you to say what you are thinking, so that I can know what it is. Can we start with the thumb - why do officers place their thumb in the same spot on every car in every traffic stop?

To create a physical record of their presence on the car for identification purposes in the event they are killed.  Think about that for a second.  Dozens of stops a day, hundreds a week, thousands a month.  Each with the level of apprehension that I need a physical identification marker in the event of any technological malfunctions that I was here in case I die.  

The point is most officers are under a tremendous amount of stress, and traffic stops are among the worst in terms of apprehension.  Felons with warrants.  Contraband.  Fugitives.  Hostages.  All this factors in.  You want to replace these officers with unarmed social workers?  For many soccer-moms scared to get a ticket, sure.  For gang members, felons, and the rest, this is a recipe for an unmitigated disaster.  It's not a secret traffic stops and domestic violence calls are THE MOST dangerous calls LE's have to make....and you want to send in social workers into a scenario you know nothing about?  Utter insanity....

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1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

It's not a secret traffic stops and domestic violence calls are THE MOST dangerous calls LE's have to make....and you want to send in social workers into a scenario you know nothing about?  Utter insanity....

Completely unarmed, unaccompanied women make social service calls all the damned time, often in the middle of the night.

Do you know any CPS workers?

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1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

To create a physical record of their presence on the car for identification purposes in the event they are killed.  Think about that for a second.  Dozens of stops a day, hundreds a week, thousands a month.  Each with the level of apprehension that I need a physical identification marker in the event of any technological malfunctions that I was here in case I die.  

The point is most officers are under a tremendous amount of stress, and traffic stops are among the worst in terms of apprehension.  Felons with warrants.  Contraband.  Fugitives.  Hostages.  All this factors in.  You want to replace these officers with unarmed social workers?  For many soccer-moms scared to get a ticket, sure.  For gang members, felons, and the rest, this is a recipe for an unmitigated disaster.  It's not a secret traffic stops and domestic violence calls are THE MOST dangerous calls LE's have to make....and you want to send in social workers into a scenario you know nothing about?  Utter insanity....

Wait - are you under the impression that even the most ardent "defund the police" people are arguing that social workers should be performing traffic stops?

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2 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

Wait - are you under the impression that even the most ardent "defund the police" people are arguing that social workers should be performing traffic stops?

It's been stated repeatedly 

Quote

Every patrol is 1 white shirt with 1 gray shirt. Both have radios ready to call in the gun guys.

Who do you think performs traffic stops?  Patrol officers.  

Edited by BabaYaga

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1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

Completely unarmed, unaccompanied women make social service calls all the damned time, often in the middle of the night.

Do you know any CPS workers?

JFC, those are planned calls.  Not 911 distress calls.  

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5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Completely unarmed, unaccompanied women make social service calls all the damned time, often in the middle of the night.

Do you know any CPS workers?

This.  Add just social workers in general, who go out to potentially dangerous homes all the time.

And also....know any ER nurses? Violent, beligerent and dangerous patients are an "every single night" sort of thing for many of them.

Some jobs carry an element of danger.  I'll note that when it comes to cops, the most dangerous part of their job is when they are driving TO the call, not once they are already there.  If they can't handle the element of danger without erring on the side of abusing citizens, then cool -- get another job.

I want everyone to come out ok.  But if the police think that the way to do that is to have a hair trigger and go apeshit on people for not sufficiently respecting their authoritah, fuck 'em.  They aren't fit for the job.

If a Marine on patrol in Afghanistan freaks out because a villager isn't listening to his instructions, and starts beating on him, he gets a court-martial, and fast.  And his fellow Marine's are actually better at reporting the event than brother cops are.  We hold our military to a higher standard than we hold our cops to.  And the military is LITERALLY IN A COMBAT ZONE.  That's fucked up.

Edited by Brisketexan

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5 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

Wait - are you under the impression that even the most ardent "defund the police" people are arguing that social workers should be performing traffic stops?

Haha please stop, my sides hurt.

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2 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

Wait - are you under the impression that even the most ardent "defund the police" people are arguing that social workers should be performing traffic stops?

Absolutely! Why not?

<50 cops are killed per year in felonious acts (meaning someone tried to kill them on purpose). There are ~20M traffic stops per year.

The most dangerous thing about a traffic stop is being in traffic.

3 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

JFC, those are planned calls.  Not 911 distress calls.  

Yes, and how many officers are killed every year by wife-abusers who just got the cops called on them?

*cue Jeopardy music*

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2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

To create a physical record of their presence on the car for identification purposes in the event they are killed.  Think about that for a second.  Dozens of stops a day, hundreds a week, thousands a month.  Each with the level of apprehension that I need a physical identification marker in the event of any technological malfunctions that I was here in case I die.  

The point is most officers are under a tremendous amount of stress, and traffic stops are among the worst in terms of apprehension.  Felons with warrants.  Contraband.  Fugitives.  Hostages.  All this factors in.  You want to replace these officers with unarmed social workers?  For many soccer-moms scared to get a ticket, sure.  For gang members, felons, and the rest, this is a recipe for an unmitigated disaster.  It's not a secret traffic stops and domestic violence calls are THE MOST dangerous calls LE's have to make....and you want to send in social workers into a scenario you know nothing about?  Utter insanity....

Thus far in this thread of the conversation, I haven't offered any opinion or made any arguments at all, except for meta arguments about putting thoughts into words.

I am not surprised at the thumb thing. I certainly believe that police are frequently scared for their lives, and I imagine that is even worse now. I think that sometimes it is warranted, often it is not. I don't have a firm stance on how we *should* do policing, and that includes not having a hard line opinion on if cops executing traffic stops should have guns, or what type of cops those cops would be if we did change the composition of our police departments. I do think that right now, it is fairly broken, and I think that the argument that we could get better outcomes by not having a gun toting tribal tatted one size fits all band aid for all social problems makes a ton of sense. I also don't think that the actual danger of policing is in line with the level of fear that cops have as a baseline, but you would be correct to assess that that is more based on statistics than my own experiences in ride alongs.

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1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

Absolutely! Why not?

<50 cops are killed per year in felonious acts (meaning someone tried to kill them on purpose). There are ~20M traffic stops per year.

The most dangerous thing about a traffic stop is being in traffic.

Yes, and how many officers are killed every year by wife-abusers who just got the cops called on them?

*cue Jeopardy music*

And....we're done here......

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20,000,000 traffic stops per year

probably 20 cops killed by people on purpose during traffic stops per year

Literally one in a million.

 

I HAVE TO GET HOME TO MY FAMILY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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1 minute ago, Celery Man said:

I also don't think that the actual danger of policing is in line with the level of fear that cops have as a baseline, but you would be correct to assess that that is more based on statistics than my own experiences in ride alongs.

You could make the exact same argument for police shootings of civilians.  

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1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

20,000,000 traffic stops per year

probably 20 cops killed by people on purpose during traffic stops per year

Literally one in a million.

 

I HAVE TO GET HOME TO MY FAMILY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

300 million LE interactions each year

14 unarmed people shot 

Literally less than one in a million

Keep going?

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2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

You could make the exact same argument for police shootings of civilians.  

If a civilian has an interaction with a cop, fears for his life, and shoots the cop, are you cool with the civilian being placed on administrative leave and then the taxpayers cut the PD a check?

Edited by Celery Man

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1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

You could make the exact same argument for police shootings of civilians.  

Yes, you could, so what does it tell you that the vast vast vast vast vast majority of non-police citizens (cops are civilians, too) don't carry guns and act like their every step is towards a violent death?

lol

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Just now, Celery Man said:

If a civilian shoots has an interaction with a cop, fears for his life, and shoots the cop, are you cool with the civilian being placed on administrative leave and then the taxpayers cut the PD a check?

I already said to gut the unions and contracts protecting bad cops and eliminate their ability to precinct hop

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1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

Yes, you could, so what does it tell you that the vast vast vast vast vast majority of non-police citizens (cops are civilians, too) don't carry guns and act like their every step is towards a violent death?

lol

Literally less than a million....

lol

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Just now, Celery Man said:

That would be a decent start.

BTW, I don't carry a gun with me in case I get stopped by a cop.

Neither do I or know anyone that does.  My guess is you will be carrying much more as more and more communities see a rise in crime as we are seeing in MN, NY, CA, Portland, Etc.  

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1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

I already said to gut the unions and contracts protecting bad cops and eliminate their ability to precinct hop

Well, you are pointing out "legitimate fear," presumably as an excuse/justification/explanation for violent police action.

I've noted this before -- the police need to be REAL careful about how they establish the standard for "I was reasonably in fear for my life and safety" by a TRAINED COP,  because they're working on setting that bar so damned low that any citizen, who has NOT received the "years of training and experience as a law enforcement officer" (that's literally the statement on damned near every police report), is "reasonably in fear for his life and safety" when he is approached by an aggressive, armed person.....who happens to be a cop with his hand on his firearm.

Anyone can pull a gun on anyone, anywhere, any time.  Shit, you can just be shopping at Wal-Mart and a dude hunting mexicans can come strolling in.  The fact that anyone, at any time, can present a threat, should not justify treating everyone, all the time, as a deadly threat, and putting the burden of proof on them in every interaction to convince you NOT to use force against them.  That's bassackwards.

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Just now, Brisketexan said:

"reasonably in fear for his life and safety"

What is this?  The fourth fucking time?  Gut the provisional contracts and mechanisms that protect and facilitate bad actors.  

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1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

Neither do I or know anyone that does.  My guess is you will be carrying much more as more and more communities see a rise in crime as we are seeing in MN, NY, CA, Portland, Etc.  

I don't foresee a future where I'm too scared to go into Minneapolis or Portland without a gat.

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Just now, Celery Man said:

 

I don't foresee a future where I'm too scared to go into Minneapolis or Portland without a gat.

You misrepresent the majority of CHL carriers.  My impression is intentionally.  Every carrier I know and have trained with (hundreds) view their carry item and a shield, not a sword.  Nor is it situational.  

But you do you.

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3 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

What is this?  The fourth fucking time?  Gut the provisional contracts and mechanisms that protect and facilitate bad actors.  

Not going to acknowledge the entire underlying culture of PDs?  Just going to assume that approach was born when modern union contract terms on officer discipline came around?  Cool.  That will be super-effective.

You can change the contract terms all you want -- when every fellow officer lies about the event, so it turns out not to BE an event worthy of discipline, none of that shit matters.

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1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

You misrepresent the majority of CHL carriers.  My impression is intentionally.  Every carrier I know and have trained with (hundreds) view their carry item and a shield, not a sword.  Nor is it situational.  

But you do you.

I think you were saying that, because of a rise in crime, I will begin to carry a gun with me frequently. I don't think that that is likely to happen.

 

Let me take a step back. I think that what you are saying is, you think that police need guns. Do you think that police need guns all of the time? Or a different question - do you think that there are any things that we have police doing now where it would be better if we had someone different than police doing that thing?

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2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Not going to acknowledge the entire underlying culture of PDs?  Just going to assume that approach was born when modern union contract terms on officer discipline came around?  Cool.  That will be super-effective.

You can change the contract terms all you want -- when every fellow officer lies about the event, so it turns out not to BE an event worthy of discipline, none of that shit matters.

There is no magic wand of culture change?  Across thousands of precincts and hundreds of thousands of officers in a staggering number of different locales.  I'm addressing a tangible items that can and will immediately facilitate real change.  You're just pissing up your own leg and complaining about how wet you are.  

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7 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

There is no magic wand of culture change?  Across thousands of precincts and hundreds of thousands of officers in a staggering number of different locales.  I'm addressing a tangible items that can and will immediately facilitate real change.  You're just pissing up your own leg and complaining about how wet you are.  

No.....I'm not.  I'm doing what a smart problem-solver should do: look for root causes.

The root cause of lawless, overbearing PDs is a public that demands and rewards that behavior.  The root cause is US.  We can change contracts, we can have training, all that....but if the majority of Americans is going to insist on tough cops who don't take any shit from anyone and are tough on crime, and demand that platform from their elected officials (and that still seems to be the case), we aren't going to fix shit.  The culture will stay the same, the cops will still cover for each other, and no discipline will change.

The HARD work is getting Americans to change their minds, over time.  The needle is moving....but not much, and the pushback is INCREDIBLY strong.

Edited by Brisketexan

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57 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Completely unarmed, unaccompanied women make social service calls all the damned time, often in the middle of the night.

Do you know any CPS workers?

CPS doesn't do that.  They call local police to do a wellness check.  They aren't even present when the police pull kids out of school.

Edited by JBJ

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49 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

 

I don't foresee a future where I'm too scared to go into Minneapolis or Portland without a gat.

Right now with all the boards and spray paint on the buildings, and smoke in the air from the fires. You could ride around with a gat mad max style, and everyone would understand.

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20 minutes ago, JBJ said:

CPS doesn't do that.  They call local police to do a wellness check.  They aren't even present when the police pull kids out of school.

ab2926a4-d9ce-4bcb-abc1-04c2bb541db9_tex

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46 minutes ago, JBJ said:

CPS doesn't do that.  They call local police to do a wellness check.  They aren't even present when the police pull kids out of school.

It depends on what kind of check or call you're talking about, I guess. But let's say theoretically I know someone very well who actually does the exact thing I'm talking about as her job, including recently driving at 10:30PM to some strangers' house all by herself because a kid was brought into a hospital in something that looked like pill-chasing scheme. Hospital calls her office, she goes and checks on it without so much as pepper spray in her purse. And hundreds of similar cases over decades of service.

Are there cases where they call cops in? Absolutely. But CPS workers will absolutely, 100%, go unattended into a situation they don't really know much about, and I'm pretty sure they don't press their thumb onto the door sill every time before they knock.

Again, ~50 cops per year die due to felonious acts. That's really the main point here. We don't live in an active warzone or in a thriller where razor-wielding gangs are roving the streets murdering people.

That's 50 too many. 0 cops should die. I don't want any of them to get hurt or die, but we need to tone down the hysteria.

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3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Again, ~50 cops per year die due to felonious acts. That's really the main point here. We don't live in an active warzone or in a thriller where razor-wielding gangs are roving the streets murdering people.

Is 50 more than 14?  

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2 hours ago, Serak The Preparer said:

Wait - are you under the impression that even the most ardent "defund the police" people are arguing that social workers should be performing traffic stops?

https://defundthepolice.org/alternatives-to-police-services/

Quote

Why is a service that is meant to provide safety and security engaging in “gotcha” surprise tactics and targeting Black people. Why can’t our streets and traffic be managed and directed by civilian services instead of armed officers in uniforms?

 

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Is 50 more than 14?  

What I love is the false narrative that the only benchmark of abusive, lawless cops is “how many people they shot to death who were completely unarmed.”

Those are just the most egregious of circumstances. What about the beatings/assaults, the false arrests, the casual and habitual lying on reports and under oath? You know, all the bad shit that low enforcers for that makes them lawbreakers instead? And again, never mind the wall of blue that stands behind them to protect and continue such misconduct.

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Just now, Brisketexan said:


What I love is the false narrative that the only benchmark of abusive, lawless cops is “how many people they shot to death who were completely unarmed.”

Those are just the most egregious of circumstances. What about the beatings/assaults, the false arrests, the casual and habitual lying on reports and under oath? You know, all the bad shit that low enforcers for that makes them lawbreakers instead? And again, never mind the wall of blue that stands behind them to protect and continue such misconduct.

Even more than the false narrative that a few dozen dead cops is not that big a deal?  You mean like that?  You do get my point, right or is your soap-box getting too tall?

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17 minutes ago, huge said:

Yes, but not ridiculously so.

2000 police are assaulted with firearms. 

1000 by knives or cutting instruments. 

10000 by other instruments (bricks, bats, wtc).

45,000 by "personal weapons" meaning hands, feet, teeth, etc.  <-- this one i take with a gigantic grain of salt, given how they can easily inflate the numbers.

 

but 3000 by guns + knives aint a joke.

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Just now, 52-80 said:

2000 police are assaulted with firearms. 

1000 by knives or cutting instruments. 

10000 by other instruments (bricks, bats, wtc).

45,000 by "personal weapons" meaning hands, feet, teeth, etc.  <-- this one i take with a gigantic grain of salt, given how they can easily inflate the numbers.

 

but 3000 by guns + knives aint a joke.

So then we can get into how often non-sworn citizens are attacked and beaten either by other unsworns or by LEOs... and on and on and 'round we go.

An officer's job is more dangerous than many other professions.
It's less dangerous than many others.

There are some situations in which we need good guys with guns. Those situations are few, rare, and sometimes created by the good guys with the guns.

Unless the situation is one that will likely need a gun, a gun shouldn't be present.

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7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


What I love is the false narrative that the only benchmark of abusive, lawless cops is “how many people they shot to death who were completely unarmed.”

Those are just the most egregious of circumstances. What about the beatings/assaults, the false arrests, the casual and habitual lying on reports and under oath? You know, all the bad shit that low enforcers for that makes them lawbreakers instead? And again, never mind the wall of blue that stands behind them to protect and continue such misconduct.

Yeah, the lying on reports/under oath is probably even more serious than the unnecessary murders.  Because it effects so many thousands of years of life each and every year in this country.  Thousands of people are robbed of decades of their free lives because of wanton lying by police from the point of arrest to the point of appeal.  

I was going into a whole thing about how many state police forces are involved in wholesale drug trafficking, but It's for another thread.  Plus I like being alive.

Edited by Lobo

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4 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Even more than the false narrative that a few dozen dead cops is not that big a deal?  You mean like that?  You do get my point, right or is your soap-box getting too tall?

Also how many were legal good shoots.

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2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

This.  Add just social workers in general, who go out to potentially dangerous homes all the time.

And also....know any ER nurses? Violent, beligerent and dangerous patients are an "every single night" sort of thing for many of them.

you really gonna convince us with a straight face that the violence dynamics in the duties of a social worker or ER nurse is the same as being called to literally stop crime?

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Even more than the false narrative that a few dozen dead cops is not that big a deal?  You mean like that?  You do get my point, right or is your soap-box getting too tall?

We can care about those without abandoning the rule of law. Cops and their apologists seem to think we can’t. That’s a problem.

I don’t want any cops killed. But no matter how many are killed, that doesn’t justify 1) extrajudicial killings, 2) illegal beatings/assaults, 3) casually and habitually lying under oath, or 4) choosing to protect a brother officer from consequences instead of upholding and enforcing the law. It really is that simple. The job is dangerous - more than some, less than others. But if cops belief that level of danger means that items 1-4 above are okay, those cops are a danger to society.

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you really gonna convince us with a straight face that the violence dynamics in the duties of a social worker or ER nurse is the same as being called to literally stop crime?

It may be worse. The nurse really didn’t sign up for dealing with violent belligerents, but she has to...with no body armor, no gun.

Shit, in fact, when you look at all risks of death/serious bodily injury (particularly this year), it’s much more dangerous to be a nurse. But you really don’t see them refusing to do their jobs because of the risk. You don’t see them putting the public second, and themselves first, because of the risk.

I know we love the myth of cops showing up to stop the armed robbery and saving the day in a heroic gunfight, but that’s exceedingly rare. They make movies about that stuff for a reason. Those movies are mostly bullshit.

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2 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

To create a physical record of their presence on the car for identification purposes in the event they are killed.  Think about that for a second.  Dozens of stops a day, hundreds a week, thousands a month.  Each with the level of apprehension that I need a physical identification marker in the event of any technological malfunctions that I was here in case I die.  

The point is most officers are under a tremendous amount of stress, and traffic stops are among the worst in terms of apprehension.  Felons with warrants.  Contraband.  Fugitives.  Hostages.  All this factors in.  You want to replace these officers with unarmed social workers?  For many soccer-moms scared to get a ticket, sure.  For gang members, felons, and the rest, this is a recipe for an unmitigated disaster.  It's not a secret traffic stops and domestic violence calls are THE MOST dangerous calls LE's have to make....and you want to send in social workers into a scenario you know nothing about?  Utter insanity....

For domestic violence calls, then yes, a properly-trained LEO with a weapon should respond.

 

But for traffic stops, why are they so dangerous? I'd argue it's because we've overly broadened the primary function of a traffic stop beyond basic enforcement of the traffic code to the point where officers think they have carte blanche investigative powers. If the primary job function of traffic patrol is code enforcement,  deescalate the situation by having the equivalent of parking attendants making the traffic stops and issuing the tickets. Basically, take away their guns. If you remove firearms from these sort of benign interactions, there's almost no chance these boogeymen you reference are going to start blasting when they get pulled over. If they speed off take the license plate number and properly trained police officers can choose to try to apprehend the suspect at a later date. I can see this getting more complicated re: DUIs. But I'm sure we can find a better solution.

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