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Racism and the Greek System (South & Texas)


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20 hours ago, Satchel said:

This wasn’t all that long ago. Sec! Sec! Sec!

University Of Alabama Student Government Votes To Leave All-White Sororities Alone. The University of Alabama student senate killed a resolution supporting racial integrationof fraternities and sororities on campus — a failure the legislation's author partly blamed on a secret society called the Machine.Mar 26, 2014

 

 

Oof.  Send this to every bama football player.  Lol no don’t.  No really don’t 

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39 minutes ago, Hanrahan said:

I met Ricky Williams at a frat party when we were both true freshman.  dude's calves were as big as my head.

Ricky used to show up at more than a few of our fraternity parties his first year or two on campus. Cool guy.

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21 hours ago, ztejas said:

At Texas? 

My point with Texas is that basketball and football players don't really have time to be in a fraternity. 

 

21 hours ago, Satchel said:

Aren’t there quite a few white football players who are in frats at Texas?

When I was involved in UT Greek life in the early 90's athletes absolutely could've been in fraternities if they wanted. They didn't have to do all the shit the rest of their fellow pledges would've had to do and then once active, could be around as much or as little as they wanted. Shea Morenz pledged KA in Fall 92, IIRC.

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2 hours ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

You've gotta remember most of the black sororities and fraternities predate organizations like the NAACP. So while these organizations served many of the same functions for students as white fraternal organizations they took on the additional roles of being organizing hubs for early Civil rights era activities.  And then again by their very nature of being organizations encompassing the black bourgeoisie they took on other roles beyond just being a place for kids to join while they were in school so they tend to still have roles beyond college life (although many may argue their importance has diminished substantially). 

Just from a cursory glance (reading a few "notable alumni wikipages" of divine 9), if you are a black college student with aspirations to be a player in the American economy-- seems like being in a black fraternity is a pre-req. I think being in a fraternity might have been like that for white people once upon a time, whereas now it's more of a social/lifestyle choice versus a power incubator.

Also a distinction I see is sorority girls usually stay close to a handful of close friends but participation dies off almost immediately after graduation. In fact, by the time you are a senior, few people care to whoop it up with a bunch of 18-20 year olds at the house anyways and you've kind of began transitioning to thinking about life post-college.

That's why junior leagues in the big city are such a thing. It's like sorority 2.0. but sounds like the black sororities maintain their bonds/relationships longer.

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When I was involved in UT Greek life in the early 90's athletes absolutely could've been in fraternities if they wanted. They didn't have to do all the shit the rest of their fellow pledges would've had to do and then once active, could be around as much or as little as they wanted. Shea Morenz pledged KA in Fall 92, IIRC.

Yeah, no frat is turning down a football player at Texas.

Fraternities and sororities are not going to integrate in our lifetimes, sure as fuck not in the south.
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56 minutes ago, C-Man said:

Ricky used to show up at more than a few of our fraternity parties his first year or two on campus. Cool guy.

I seem to remember we were part of the same house of upstanding young gentlemen, a few years apart.

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1 hour ago, C-Man said:

Ricky used to show up at more than a few of our fraternity parties his first year or two on campus. Cool guy.

Did he stand in the corner and not really talk to anyone like he did when came to a few of our parties?  Dude ran for 200 yds and 3 tds and seemed a little embarrassed when someone told him he played a great game.  Was not shocked when he started talking openly his social anxiety issues.

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23 hours ago, Satchel said:

Aren’t there quite a few white football players who are in frats at Texas?

Yes, and, at least historically, they are exempted from a lot of the hazing type BS. Some, though, are pretty gung ho and participate to the extent possible.

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30 minutes ago, Hanrahan said:

I seem to remember we were part of the same house of upstanding young gentlemen, a few years apart.

We probably figured that out somewhere along the way but I can't always remember who is who around here!

 

21 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Did he stand in the corner and not really talk to anyone like he did when came to a few of our parties?  Dude ran for 200 yds and 3 tds and seemed a little embarrassed when someone told him he played a great game.  Was not shocked when he started talking openly his social anxiety issues.

Yeah, as I recall he wasn't exactly the life of the party but a nice guy nonetheless. He seemed to always show up with a couple of white chicks.

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7 minutes ago, C-Man said:

We probably figured that out somewhere along the way but I can't always remember who is who around here!

 

Yeah, as I recall he wasn't exactly the life of the party but a nice guy nonetheless. He seemed to always show up with a couple of white chicks.


well, phi phi kappa casual.

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14 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

I was an individual. I never saw the need to pay for friends, connections, or old tests. I could still go to frat parties and get laid. Jesus, if I was ever in a frat, I wouldn’t admit it today. 

hahaha.  so so cool.  and yeah i'm sure the ladies were lined up and throwing themselves at you to hear your super lame excruciatingly detailed over analyzed takes on the Grateful Dead and everything else.  i bet the actives at all the parties you went to were like 'oh man he's here!! i was hoping he'd come!!!  i wish he'd join we wouldn't even make him be a pledge first...straight to full active!!!!!!'  

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1 hour ago, gmr548 said:


Yeah, no frat is turning down a football player at Texas.

Fraternities and sororities are not going to integrate in our lifetimes, sure as fuck not in the south.

But they have at schools like UH. The SAEs there look like Houston. Black, Hispanic, Asian, White...I doubt they get along with any chapter in a 500-mile radius, but that's the way it is there. 

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Posted (edited)

Before I moved to Austin, I was cool enough to get a bid from the best house at this other college---Kappa Epsilon Gamma.  My big brother was a guy named Steve Sanders. 

And Sanders let me know what a big deal it was to be a first generation guy to get a bid there, it was mostly legacies.  And I realized in learning from him...they weren't so much racist, but with just so few bids to go out to so many great candidates...there just wasn't room for pledges of color because of all the legacy spots.  I think maybe that's part of what goes on at UT still.  Steve ended up getting in a bunch of trouble for a hazing incident that happened after I left, plus I banged his girlfriend Kelly Taylor.  Epic memories from that place with my bros.  Only problem was I got kicked off the Condor school newspaper for partying too hard.  Ah well.  

Edited by Lobo
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23 hours ago, Pancho said:

There is a lot of interesting research surrounding fraternities and sororities and Whiteness.  A lot of them are qualitative, which is my wheelhouse. You can find a few of them for free on Google Scholar.  Some of the research basically is White frat members believing while they may make a "little racist joke" here or there, they don't consider themselves racist.  (Like with some White people, they only believe themselves to be racist if they openly use the word nigger or if they advocate for the rise of slavery of Blacks.  But because they don't do that, they don't think they are racist.)  And to their credit, there are some in the focus groups of the research who believe their White frats could benefit from more diverse memebers. 

A lot of research I read in my doctoral program centered around fraternities and sororities enhancing "brotherhood and sisterhood" so that is one influence as to why they may not appeal to someone of a different race.  That doesn't mean they don't want someone of a different race and wouldn't be accepting, but their experiences with someone of a different race doesn't scream "you're my brother/sister" like someone else who is also White and wealthy/semi-wealthy.  This is what BT was saying with the bourgeois.  I don't know that I'd connect the bourgeois to Black fraternities and sororities and instead argue their connection centers around similarities in racial experiences as well as economic status. (The anti-bourgeois)

I actually think an all-White Greeek frat would be more open to accepting a Black member than an all-White Greek sorority, and I'm surprised I'm making that assertion honestly considering what we know about communication styles between men and women. I just don't think I would ever see a Black Chi-O, but I also don't know that I would see a White AKA.  I feel like I've seen White guys in Black frats before, but not at UT.  I know I've definitely seen White guys in Black frats at HBCUs, but that's a totally different story. 

Sasha Obama was being considered by the Chi O’s at Michigan because her friend from Sidwell Friends pledged Chi O. Not sure if she ended up pledging anything to date. The pressure on her to pledge AKA is/was pretty intense for a lot of reasons. Her mom and the VPOTUS are AKAs.

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4 minutes ago, Satchel said:

Sasha Obama was being considered by the Chi O’s at Michigan because her friend from Sidwell Friends pledged Chi O. Not sure if she ended up pledging anything to date. The pressure on her to pledge AKA is/was pretty intense for a lot of reasons. Her mom and the VPOTUS are AKAs.

It’s also Sasha Obama.  I’m sure she would be accepted to any sorority at Michigan. 

My wondering is has there been someone like Keisha Ja’Nae from Yates or Souf Oak Cliff high schools in Chi-O anywhere?  And that’s not me trying to make a point rather my research brain is just genuinely curious.  Because if there is/was, I’d strongly considering writing a journal article on that and seeing if I can get it published.  (But I’d need like 6-8 of those participants.)

And I have 0 interest in ever writing or publishing again. 

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6 hours ago, RDCanecutter said:

It doesn't appear to be all that rare or new-- back in the 80s a white friend of a friend was doing a college newspaper story on the Divine Nine, I guess he hit it off with the guys, and they asked him if he wanted to join. We were all like "You can DO that?"-- we weren't interested in frats in general, but that would have been cooler.

We were naive, but I still run into people who don't realize that you don't have to be Black to go to an HBCU.

Dude, before Bruce Jenner cut his cock off, he starred in a movie about it: "Grambling's White Tiger".

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But they have at schools like UH. The SAEs there look like Houston. Black, Hispanic, Asian, White...I doubt they get along with any chapter in a 500-mile radius, but that's the way it is there. 

Fair, but UH isn’t really what I meant. Its legacy is a commuter school (and still is to a decent degree) and doesn’t have that entrenched Greek culture of a place like Texas, let alone SMU or Ole Miss or whatever. So I should’ve said southern flagship/legacy publics and private schools.

Edit: I also wouldn’t consider most Texas public schools old school southern to the same degree as the Deep South states. UT is southern adjacent for sure, but it’s not LSU. SMU/Baylor, sure.
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Recent UH SAE pledge class:
DWvYrDhUQAAF_pF+(1).jpg?format=2500w
 
 

Also this pic is way whiter than Houston, FYI. And it appears to be a co ed group? That’s just not the kind of entrenched southern frat chapter I was talking about. On me for not being clear.
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11 minutes ago, gmr548 said:


Also this pic is way whiter than Houston, FYI. And it appears to be a co ed group? That’s just not the kind of entrenched southern frat chapter I was talking about. On me for not being clear.

Don't know about that...looks about 7 of those dudes are Anglo whites, and I assume those chicks are little sisters or whatever. 

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21 minutes ago, gmr548 said:




Edit: I also wouldn’t consider most Texas public schools old school southern to the same degree as the Deep South states. UT is southern adjacent for sure, but it’s not LSU. SMU/Baylor, sure.

Aw man, come on. As Texans we'd like to believe that, but we share a state with aggy. And I moved in Greek circles at Ole Miss and LSU back in the day and it was not in any way foreign to the old-school frats at UT in 1989. I really wish we could get over this idea that we are not hard-wired with Deep South thinking in ways we don't even know because we are. I guess now I need to head over to the CRT thread. 

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18 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Aw man, come on. As Texans we'd like to believe that, but we share a state with aggy. And I moved in Greek circles at Ole Miss and LSU back in the day and it was not in any way foreign to the old-school frats at UT in 1989. I really wish we could get over this idea that we are not hard-wired with Deep South thinking in ways we don't even know because we are. I guess now I need to head over to the CRT thread. 

Yeah Ole Miss, Alabama etc were viewed as the apotheosis of fraternity culture when I was in 10 years ago. Doubt that’s changed. 

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8 minutes ago, We’reTexas said:

Yeah Ole Miss, Alabama etc were viewed as the apotheosis of fraternity culture when I was in 10 years ago. Doubt that’s changed. 

Shit during Hell Night -- not Hell Week, but right near the end --  one of the songs was set in Alabama. As a long time observer of how folk music is transmitted, it would be safe to assume that the elders of my frat back in the day might well have hailed from Alabama.

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On 6/17/2021 at 11:49 AM, Brisketexan said:

Also, I remember watching the Alpha Phi Alphas practice their step show routine in the common area at Jester, and it was badass as hell.  Definitely made me want to hang with those guys.

Ques the best .  Two of my best friends from high school were Que Dogs and I may have spent more time at their parties than my own fraternity's parties.  Because their parties were fucking lit.

Back before I got old and fat I could bust out to Atomic Dog with the best of them.  Now I want to go out and buy a pair of camo shorts, boots and a can of gold spray paint.

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1 hour ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

Ques the best .  Two of my best friends from high school were Que Dogs and I may have spent more time at their parties than my own fraternity's parties.  Because their parties were fucking lit.

Back before I got old and fat I could bust out to Atomic Dog with the best of them.  Now I want to go out and buy a pair of camo shorts, boots and a can of gold spray paint.

You can't just TALK about Atomic Dog.

 

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1 hour ago, We’reTexas said:

Yeah Ole Miss, Alabama etc were viewed as the apotheosis of fraternity culture when I was in 10 years ago. Doubt that’s changed. 

My high school group of friends infiltrated some guys into Alabama frats and we'd go drink their beer. I guess they weren't as super-duper snobby as they could have been, because there we were, drinking their beer, but I couldn't crack the code. When I'd smooth up next to some of the brothers to see what they were talking about, it always seemed to involve their dad's business. I guess I could have said "Well my dad was a biker the last time I saw him when I was 15," but why bother. So I'd just go drink some more beer.

Then recently digging through a time-capsule of my Dad's high school stuff, I found a (high school) frat bracelet, I think he was president of, he was dating the Governor's daughter, the two of them were even mentioned in the Montgomery Advertiser social pages, and basically, dude was running the scene.

Life do take some turns.

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2 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Aw man, come on. As Texans we'd like to believe that, but we share a state with aggy. And I moved in Greek circles at Ole Miss and LSU back in the day and it was not in any way foreign to the old-school frats at UT in 1989. I really wish we could get over this idea that we are not hard-wired with Deep South thinking in ways we don't even know because we are. I guess now I need to head over to the CRT thread. 

Yeah, the "romance" with Old South frats I think has to do with the general state of affairs in the Old South:  poverty.  Relative rich kids from wealthy-ish families "run shit" like frats at those schools, and later on in life, to the great awe of the po folks surrounding them.

Well, the general level of wealth and privilege in Texas far exceeds that in Mississippi or Alabama, so even the "proletarian" kids are well off and can do entitlement with the best of them.  Then there are the scions of oil, and oil banking, and oil real estate in Texas.  The money may not be quite as old as Tripp Pinckney's at USCe, but it is probably much, much bigger, and more freely spent.  A lot of that southern old money is more old than money.

However, the increasing trend of student quality and diversity since the 80s or so has changed that dynamic in ways that are just maybe trickling into the Old South schools and frats.

But in the post-war era, Texas did frats as "well" as anyone in the country.  A mid-tier frat at Texas could be transplanted to almost any school in the country and be top tier.

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18 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Just from a cursory glance (reading a few "notable alumni wikipages" of divine 9), if you are a black college student with aspirations to be a player in the American economy-- seems like being in a black fraternity is a pre-req. I think being in a fraternity might have been like that for white people once upon a time, whereas now it's more of a social/lifestyle choice versus a power incubator.

Also a distinction I see is sorority girls usually stay close to a handful of close friends but participation dies off almost immediately after graduation. In fact, by the time you are a senior, few people care to whoop it up with a bunch of 18-20 year olds at the house anyways and you've kind of began transitioning to thinking about life post-college.

That's why junior leagues in the big city are such a thing. It's like sorority 2.0. but sounds like the black sororities maintain their bonds/relationships longer.

yep. Watch Stomp the Yard.  

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15 hours ago, Gil Bang said:

Dude, before Bruce Jenner cut his cock off, he starred in a movie about it: "Grambling's White Tiger".

A friend of my eldest daughter from middle school recently began (publicly) transitioning. This wonderful 17 year old, who had a loving, supportive family, with mom and dad together 20+ years and 2 college age brothers, who attended an inclusive magnet high school and had many supportive friends, shot herself last month. Her father came home and found her. Her mother won’t go back to the house.  In the very best of situations these people have an extremely difficult existence.

I would like to say a lot more but I’ll just say please stop with comments like this

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13 hours ago, lmao said:

I'm not black but being in an all-white fraternity of spoiled Brads & Todds from the burbs would be a living hell.

 

and then the sorority sisters show up and they want to get back at their daddy !

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Hook’em might not be the appropriate reaction, but it’s a sad hook’em on Sawbonz’ post.

 

I think in the past twenty-thirty years Texas has drifted from “southern” quite a bit, or at least has some while our SEC neighbors maybe have leaned in? I dunno. The big frat story I remember from my time was the kid who died of alcohol poisoning and dudes had drawn all over him with sharpies. But I think he was Asian and that might not have been a Greek frat? Either way, the racist Mexican shit (cinco de mayo parties) is not/was not surprising while hearing about some racist black shit (cotton in the yard? was that here?) was a big “WTF??”. Maybe UT has drifted generally while frats have not as much.

I was talking about frats/sororities with my wife the other night, in the context of having an infant girl. For some reason I could see a world where I paid for her to pledge where I don’t think I’d do that for a son. Not sure the exact distinction in my head. Either way, it helped me land on… one of the most important things about leaving home and growing up is befriending people who are different than me and different than the typical people I grew up with in the burbs. Pledge or not I would not want my kid to go off to school just to not expand their horizons socially. Also why it is good for “elite” schools to take steps to bring in diversity. Not having it makes it a worse school. Academically and socially. As a new resident of North Carolina I’ll be interested to see what happens at UNC with the professor denied tenure by the conservative donors and politicians who found her to be uppity or whatever. Feels like home.

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I wouldn't put up much of an argument here as I don't have inside knowledge of greek life. UT as a whole is certainly less old south than, say, Ole Miss. I suppose I just made the assumption that you could say the same about the greek sector, but what you're saying certainly doesn't surprise me.

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8 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

Hook’em might not be the appropriate reaction, but it’s a sad hook’em on Sawbonz’ post.

 

I think in the past twenty-thirty years Texas has drifted from “southern” quite a bit, or at least has some while our SEC neighbors maybe have leaned in? I dunno. The big frat story I remember from my time was the kid who died of alcohol poisoning and dudes had drawn all over him with sharpies. But I think he was Asian and that might not have been a Greek frat? Either way, the racist Mexican shit (cinco de mayo parties) is not/was not surprising while hearing about some racist black shit (cotton in the yard? was that here?) was a big “WTF??”. Maybe UT has drifted generally while frats have not as much.

He was Asian, and it was an Asian frat (I think we were in school at the same time). The cotton thing was KA and perhaps apocryphal, it was before our time. But really the biggest event of our time was the SAE pledge who fell off a balcony in towers. That impacted the university’s scrutiny on the Greek system for years. 

The southern frat thing is kind of a scene. It’s hard to explain. Basically just kids trying too hard to be the southern version of preppy. But as for the racism (which I found to be endemic), I think it’s best viewed as an expression of elitism and immature kids beginning to understand the significance of their socioeconomic backgrounds. 

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46 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

Hook’em might not be the appropriate reaction, but it’s a sad hook’em on Sawbonz’ post.

 

I think in the past twenty-thirty years Texas has drifted from “southern” quite a bit, or at least has some while our SEC neighbors maybe have leaned in? I dunno. The big frat story I remember from my time was the kid who died of alcohol poisoning and dudes had drawn all over him with sharpies. But I think he was Asian and that might not have been a Greek frat? Either way, the racist Mexican shit (cinco de mayo parties) is not/was not surprising while hearing about some racist black shit (cotton in the yard? was that here?) was a big “WTF??”. Maybe UT has drifted generally while frats have not as much.

I was talking about frats/sororities with my wife the other night, in the context of having an infant girl. For some reason I could see a world where I paid for her to pledge where I don’t think I’d do that for a son. Not sure the exact distinction in my head. Either way, it helped me land on… one of the most important things about leaving home and growing up is befriending people who are different than me and different than the typical people I grew up with in the burbs. Pledge or not I would not want my kid to go off to school just to not expand their horizons socially. Also why it is good for “elite” schools to take steps to bring in diversity. Not having it makes it a worse school. Academically and socially. As a new resident of North Carolina I’ll be interested to see what happens at UNC with the professor denied tenure by the conservative donors and politicians who found her to be uppity or whatever. Feels like home.

Before my time, but I thought the cotton in the yard thing was here.  Also, apparently one frat wanted to hire all black "help" to reflect the old days.  

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1 hour ago, tx 3 putt said:

 

and then the sorority sisters show up and they want to get back at their daddy !

And then their bf's find out they cheated w/a black man & say it's rape.

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1 hour ago, closetohumping said:

Before my time, but I thought the cotton in the yard thing was here.  Also, apparently one frat wanted to hire all black "help" to reflect the old days.  

That was generally the case anyway, whether or not there was nostalgic racist intent behind it or not. i ended up hanging out with our porter about as much as anyone else during my last semester. When I had money, I'd buy him booze, when he had it, he'd hit me back. At that very moment I was reading in some sociology class about the culture of reciprocity in the Black community and thinking, wow, this shit is real. He was a helluva nice guy for a dude with two teardrop face tats.

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1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

the bill burr bit on SNL that made the white women mad lol

Yup, I witnessed that very scenario play out in college. 

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4 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

the bill burr bit on SNL that made the white women mad lol

I don't understand how he didn't get 100% universal appreciation and love for this:

Let's talk white women—you're amazing. Amazing, your accomplishments over the last few years. I gotta tell you, the way white women somehow hijacked the woke movement, generals around the world should be analyzing this.

Just to refresh your memory: The woke movement was supposed to be about people of color—not getting opportunities, the at-bats that they deserve—finally making that happen. And it was about that, for about eight seconds. And then somehow, white women swung their Gucci-booted feet over the fence of oppression and stuck themselves at the front of the line. I don't know how they did it.

I've never heard so much complaining in my life from white women. "I'm hurt, with my SUV and my heated seats. You have no idea what it's like to be me." Trashing white guys. The nerve. Where's the camera? The nerve of you white women. Listen, I don't want to speak ill of my b***hes here, OK? I don't. But let's go back in history here, OK? You guys stood by us toxic white males through centuries of our crimes against humanity. You rolled around in the blood money. And, occasionally, when you wanted to sneak off and hook up with a Black dude, if you got caught, you said it wasn't consensual. Yeah, that's what you did! That's what you did! So why don't you shut up, sit down next to me and take your talking-to? 

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On 6/18/2021 at 3:09 PM, DonkeyCigars said:

Just from a cursory glance (reading a few "notable alumni wikipages" of divine 9), if you are a black college student with aspirations to be a player in the American economy-- seems like being in a black fraternity is a pre-req. I think being in a fraternity might have been like that for white people once upon a time, whereas now it's more of a social/lifestyle choice versus a power incubator.

Also a distinction I see is sorority girls usually stay close to a handful of close friends but participation dies off almost immediately after graduation. In fact, by the time you are a senior, few people care to whoop it up with a bunch of 18-20 year olds at the house anyways and you've kind of began transitioning to thinking about life post-college.

That's why junior leagues in the big city are such a thing. It's like sorority 2.0. but sounds like the black sororities maintain their bonds/relationships longer.

Much of what you write is accurate. It’s one reason large numbers of black college grads pledge in graduate chapters that are established in cities all over the country. There is an allure to being perceived as part of black life that serves the community. 

FYI, the CEO of Henry C Beck pledged A Phi A at UTA and the top guy at the Air Force pledged Alpha at Texas Tech.

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On 6/18/2021 at 9:36 PM, RDCanecutter said:

You can't just TALK about Atomic Dog.

 

I did not know this existed, and now my mind is blown.   RD doing RD things, always bringing knowledge to the youngsters here. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Satchel said:

Much of what you write is accurate. It’s one reason large numbers of black college grads pledge in graduate chapters that are established in cities all over the country. There is an allure to being perceived as part of black life that serves the community. 

FYI, the CEO of Henry C Beck pledged A Phi A at UTA and the top guy at the Air Force pledged Alpha at Texas Tech.

That makes sense, as does Donkey's post.  In the early days of colleges, it was a combination of power elites and some intellectuals without money, not quite what it has become today, at least for white people.  The elites were already living lives of leisure so the smart poor guys coopted them into fraternities for access.

The black college experience is probably similar to that today, in terms of black power elites and more regular folks.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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