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36 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

then and "evangelical" school for four years after that. Our name was the Rebels. Our fight song was "Dixie." We had Confederate flag decals on our football helmets. And we prayed a lot.

Sounds like my high school except I attended public school.

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The Bible thumpers have been trying to rebuild this country since 1980 and the intelligent people are letting them do it. The fact that their proxies are terrible people (Pence, Cruz, the orange orangutan) doesn’t wake the stupid fuckers up, but somehow the rational folks are the danger.

we’re actively attacking science and rational thought - I don’t have kids, so you dipshits can die in a fire.

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One should view religion like flat-earth theory. I guess it’s okay to believe it, but you shouldn’t plan your actual life around it.

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4 hours ago, XR4ticlone said:

No...I wanted to toss him right to the end of the convention.  Was pissed when it didn't happen.  Wanted to beat John Kasich's ass for staying in...ensuring Cruz had no shot.  

I do like him in a lot of regards.  I love how he's standing up to the left's insanity.  He's exposed the MSM more effectively than anyone before him...he's also exposing a lot of corruption in DC.  It's pretty clear now the FBI & DOJ were jokes...endless leaking to the press to drive their agenda.  Clearly they were spying on US citizens & had bias in their investigations.  

It's good that we finally have a President pushing for US interests.  We've given away the farm for far too long.  We borrow money from China to give away...think about that.  

I'm a Christian.  I'm also a sinner...like everyone else.   I'm saved through the forgiveness of Jesus Christ...and that alone.  I'm also an American.  I think people have freedom to make their own choices...and also to suffer the consequences.  As a Christian, I believe that homosexuality is sin.  As an American I believe it's their choice. 

And as much as the left seems to think that there is this Christian theology...I don't see it.  And if I'm going to withhold voting or support because the President isn't morally pure...then I've just surrendered the country.  I don't think that's a valid choice...and I won't be bullied into it by leftists.      

You’d vote for Satan if he was an R.  Sad!

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"Without capital punishment, we wouldn't have a savior crucified for our sins..."
(real thing that an evangelical minister said to me when I asked that same question)


Wow.gif

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Interspersed between the spurts of typical CR nonsense, some really good posts in this thread. 

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On 5/11/2018 at 2:35 AM, Mole said:

I guess I roughly fall under the term if we're talking theology. I didn't vote for trump and consider his election a great moral failing by our country. He's morally unfit for office, corrupt, and generally a disaster. I also greatly dislike the politicization of the church. As bad as it's been for the country, it's much worse for the church. The anti-faith zealots should be rooting for a slow burn of politicized religion; not so much that we turn into the Taliban but enough that we're too busy marginalizing ourselves seeking worldly power to actually be the church.

That said, the mental games you have to play to get from evangelicals largely supported trump to evangelicals are white supremists is pretty substantial. But hey, we all need a good enemy and it's easier if our enemies are somehow less than us.

Politicized religion isn't remotely limited to Christianity.

 

Wake the fuck up.  Dogma runs the show in your house too.  You just call it something else.

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8 hours ago, Bullneck said:

It should be.  Does it make sense to push religion on others instead of just shutting the fuck up?

Faulty presumption. Despite the name, the vast majority do not push anything on anyone. I certainly don’t. 

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8 hours ago, XR4ticlone said:

No...I wanted to toss him right to the end of the convention.  Was pissed when it didn't happen.  Wanted to beat John Kasich's ass for staying in...ensuring Cruz had no shot.  

I do like him in a lot of regards.  I love how he's standing up to the left's insanity.  He's exposed the MSM more effectively than anyone before him...he's also exposing a lot of corruption in DC.  It's pretty clear now the FBI & DOJ were jokes...endless leaking to the press to drive their agenda.  Clearly they were spying on US citizens & had bias in their investigations.  

It's good that we finally have a President pushing for US interests.  We've given away the farm for far too long.  We borrow money from China to give away...think about that.  

I'm a Christian.  I'm also a sinner...like everyone else.   I'm saved through the forgiveness of Jesus Christ...and that alone.  I'm also an American.  I think people have freedom to make their own choices...and also to suffer the consequences.  As a Christian, I believe that homosexuality is sin.  As an American I believe it's their choice. 

And as much as the left seems to think that there is this Christian theology...I don't see it.  And if I'm going to withhold voting or support because the President isn't morally pure...then I've just surrendered the country.  I don't think that's a valid choice...and I won't be bullied into it by leftists.      

Are you even paying attention?

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I was an evangelical, still have strong Christian leanings but realize it’s a tricky deal being LGBTQ .... and I think living a Christian life without hypocrisy is damn hard. So I dialed it all the way back to the parable of the good Samaritan. The Pharisees were shocked to find out the really bad dude was the good guy because despite his heritage and label as the bad dude he inconvenienced himself with his time, money and plans to go out of the way to meet the practical needs of another human. Jesus then said that was just about it — love god and love your neighbor like that bad dude did.

 

So that’s me, I do suck at it often but I try my best.

 

Now to where I left ... a truly fundamentalist evangelical set of churches - lots of heady discussions and emotional pleas and belief in an almost zionistic ideal. Comparisons to the kings of the Old Testament and the Nation of Israel of old. American leaders become torchbearers for God or not. Fallible leaders who don’t profess evangelical values are considered like the kings of old that were bad those that took Israel captive. Those kings, I mean American leaders that profess Christian values and do things like roll back LGBTQ equality or appoint anti abortion justices are seen as fallible but malleable to God’s voice. Pence and Trumps pandering - and choosing pence was the greatest move of pandering - do it for these politically active Christian zionists. They see past the sexual failings of trump unlike Clinton because trump will appoint certain justices and agree the gays and trannies are a scourge. So trump is like the king who wasn’t that great but God used him for good anyway. By praying for fallible leaders we get to see how god can use anyone for his sovereign plans. makes me wanna puke.

 

Taxes and other non religious issues get wrapped up in it too which is odd to me. As though rugged independence and reliance on self and not government is a Christian value

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Rex Kramer said:

Faulty presumption. Despite the name, the vast majority do not push anything on anyone. I certainly don’t. 

Maybe you don’t in your daily interactions, but you damn sure do in your ballot choices.  

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6 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

Maybe you don’t in your daily interactions, but you damn sure do in your ballot choices.  

Nope. 

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Republicans claiming the exclusive moral high ground is the most infuriating. Especially when you look at the poor, healthcare disadvantaged and the disabled and the narratives R’s use to justify fucking them over.

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5 hours ago, Ted Lange said:

You’d vote for Satan if he was an R.  Sad!

I doubt it'll ever be a problem....Satan's a die hard leftist.  

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3 minutes ago, troph said:

Republicans claiming the exclusive moral high ground is the most infuriating. Especially when you look at the poor, healthcare disadvantaged and the disabled and the narratives R’s use to justify fucking them over.

Making people victims and dependents isn't helping them.  

Also, I don't give points for 'helping' people with OPM.  Don't tell me how generous you are with OPM....tell me how generous you are with YOUR money. 

The idea that states fixes any problems...it doesn't.  Obamacare didn't help poor people get HC...they got forced insurance coverage that wasn't usable due to massive deductibles or no doctors willing to take their coverage.  Giving drug addicts places to do drugs isn't helping them.  

People want to feel useful...paying them to sit home and watch tv isn't helping them.  Enabling their drug & alcohol abuse isn't helping them.  Enabling them to abandon their kids and responsibilities isn't helping them. 

It doesn't work with poor people...it doesn't work with rich people's kids.  It just doesn't work.  

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17 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Jesus was a communist.

I don’t believe he ever advocated using government force as a means of achieving it.  

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1 minute ago, XR4ticlone said:

Making people victims and dependents isn't helping them.  

Also, I don't give points for 'helping' people with OPM.  Don't tell me how generous you are with OPM....tell me how generous you are with YOUR money. 

The idea that states fixes any problems...it doesn't.  Obamacare didn't help poor people get HC...they got forced insurance coverage that wasn't usable due to massive deductibles or no doctors willing to take their coverage.  Giving drug addicts places to do drugs isn't helping them.  

People want to feel useful...paying them to sit home and watch tv isn't helping them.  Enabling their drug & alcohol abuse isn't helping them.  Enabling them to abandon their kids and responsibilities isn't helping them. 

It doesn't work with poor people...it doesn't work with rich people's kids.  It just doesn't work.  

What do you suggest?

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17 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Jesus was a communist.

Hardly...

That you cannot differentiate between freely giving vs forced confiscation...probably explains your broken world view. 

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Just now, Johnny Sack said:

I don’t believe he ever advocated using government force as a means of achieving it.  

Render unto Caesar . . . 

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1 minute ago, XR4ticlone said:

Hardly...

That you cannot differentiate between freely giving vs forced confiscation...probably explains your broken world view. 

Total commie, bro.

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Making people victims and dependents isn't helping them.  
Also, I don't give points for 'helping' people with OPM.  Don't tell me how generous you are with OPM....tell me how generous you are with YOUR money. 
The idea that states fixes any problems...it doesn't.  Obamacare didn't help poor people get HC...they got forced insurance coverage that wasn't usable due to massive deductibles or no doctors willing to take their coverage.  Giving drug addicts places to do drugs isn't helping them.  
People want to feel useful...paying them to sit home and watch tv isn't helping them.  Enabling their drug & alcohol abuse isn't helping them.  Enabling them to abandon their kids and responsibilities isn't helping them. 
It doesn't work with poor people...it doesn't work with rich people's kids.  It just doesn't work.  

Neither does starving out public education. You know, the foundation for self sufficiency and success. But that’s a core GOP value, too.

Sorry. I moved in GOP circles for the past 30 years. I’ve met governors, Senators, etc. Not only does the party not get to claim any moral or theological high ground...it actually revels and delights in cruelty and suffering. I’ve seen it live, and in action.

You’re lying to yourself. And nobody believes it but you.

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1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:


Neither does starving out public education. You know, the foundation for self sufficiency and success. But that’s a core GOP value, too.

Sorry. I moved in GOP circles for the past 30 years. I’ve met governors, Senators, etc. Not only does the party not get to claim any moral or theological high ground...it actually revels and delights in cruelty and suffering. I’ve seen it live, and in action.

You’re lying to yourself. And nobody believes it but you.

Yep. It's the schadenfreude party.

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Regarding commie Jesus, broadly speaking, the American church is more American than church. There's giving, but (with some exceptions) I don't think it would be described as koinonia. You might be able to argue the early church as something approximating communism, but there are some important distinctions: they were local in their thinking; they were centered around a spiritual transformation (koinonia was the result of the transformation rather than the goal); they took constant encouragement and failed often (see the Epistles). If Brisket wants to start a commune in his home, I'll bring all of my the cheese fries and beef sticks, but don't be surprised if people start sleeping with their stepmoms. There's biblical precedent. 

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Just now, David Dennison said:

What do you suggest?

Putting people to work...giving them a feeling of accomplishment.  

Quit telling everyone their a victim...make people responsible for their actions. 

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34 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Render unto Caesar . . . 

Yeah. He wasn’t advocating government force.  He wasn’t political at all.  

Pretty sure he’d be against butchering unborn children.  “Let the little children come to me.”

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1 minute ago, XR4ticlone said:

Putting people to work...giving them a feeling of accomplishment.  

Quit telling everyone their a victim...make people responsible for their actions. 

No vote harvesting in that. You can shear a sheep many times. 

Edited by Johnny Sack

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37 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


Neither does starving out public education. You know, the foundation for self sufficiency and success. But that’s a core GOP value, too.

Sorry. I moved in GOP circles for the past 30 years. I’ve met governors, Senators, etc. Not only does the party not get to claim any moral or theological high ground...it actually revels and delights in cruelty and suffering. I’ve seen it live, and in action.

You’re lying to yourself. And nobody believes it but you.

Your party is complicit in butchering 60 million souls. 

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And your party is stringing you along based on the promise of stopping abortion.

Narrator - it won’t.

while doing this, they are doing everything Brisket says and actively making life harder for (at least) 60 million ACTUAL souls. You are delusional, which is nicer than “a fucking moron”.

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35 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


Neither does starving out public education. You know, the foundation for self sufficiency and success. But that’s a core GOP value, too.

Sorry. I moved in GOP circles for the past 30 years. I’ve met governors, Senators, etc. Not only does the party not get to claim any moral or theological high ground...it actually revels and delights in cruelty and suffering. I’ve seen it live, and in action.

You’re lying to yourself. And nobody believes it but you.

Well we can't all care as much as liberals.  

tenor.gif?itemid=7431308

There's only so much OPM to spend. 

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18 hours ago, Mole said:

An acquaintance from high school joined the army right out of school and spent quite a bit of time in Iraq. In high school, he was an evangelical Christian.  After his deployments, he turned into an atheist. The interesting thing is that while his conclusions were drastically different, he still maintained his same fundamentalist thought process. If you can't see the same fundamentalist thinking in declaring a majority of evangelicals evil because Trump (who admittedly is terrible), that's your problem. Just because the enemy (who has been declared "evil") is different, doesn't mean the thinking is any different than the most obnoxious Baptist preacher. You have your enemies based on shallow understanding and a fundamentalist ideology, they have theirs. I fail to see much of a difference.

Sincerely, 

Some Dickeater

I don't think evangelicals are evil next straw man please.

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34 minutes ago, XR4ticlone said:

Putting people to work...giving them a feeling of accomplishment.  

Quit telling everyone their a victim...make people responsible for their actions. 

What's the plan?

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15 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I don't think evangelicals are evil next straw man please.

Wildcat called them "pieces of shit" and evil. When I likened this to the Baptist preacher creating an enemy, you referred to me as "some dickeater ruining the discussion." Strawman, right.

Edited by Mole

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1 hour ago, XR4ticlone said:

Hardly...

That you cannot differentiate between freely giving vs forced confiscation...probably explains your broken world view. 

Worship me as your personal Savior, and live your life according to my will, or face eternal damnation in Hell. 

Where’s the difference again?

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1 hour ago, Johnny Sack said:

Let the little children come to me.”

I'll take, Things Pedophiles say for $1,000, Alex.

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I'm sure XR4ticlone LOVES OPM when it comes to his pet projects like bombing brown people half way across the world.  When it comes to things that actually advance the interests of this country like education and health care, he quickly hides his bible under his pillow to hide the fact that Jesus advocated paying your taxes.

 

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1 hour ago, Johnny Sack said:

Your party is complicit in butchering 60 million souls.

20% of pregnancies end in miscarriage, so your guy is doing an even a better job at butchering souls than Pro-choicers.

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1 hour ago, VRHorn said:

And your party is stringing you along based on the promise of stopping abortion.

Narrator - it won’t.

 

This is an important point. There's much more power in the wedge of abortion than in actually doing something about it. We're roughly in the same place regarding abortion as we were 40 years ago. At a certain point, it makes sense to ask if pro-life politicians are actually interested in doing something. What makes me even more cynical about the pro-life political movement, is the history of it. Prior to Roe vs. Wade,  "the embryo is not fully human — it is an undeveloped person" was a mainstream evangelical position. When the mainstream position changed, it changed fast and we're left with very little memory of it.

Spoiler
Quote

By the mid-1980s, the evangelical right was so successful with this strategy that the popular evangelical community would no longer tolerate any alternative position. Hence, the outrage over a book titled Brave New People published by InterVarsity Press in 1984. In addition to discussing a number of new biotechnologies, including genetic engineering and in vitro fertilization, the author, an evangelical professor living in New Zealand, also devoted a chapter to abortion. His position was similar to that of most evangelicals 15 years prior. Although he did not believe the fetus was a full-fledged person from conception, he did believe that because it was a potential person, it should be treated with respect. Abortion was only permissible to protect the health and well-being of the mother, to preclude a severely deformed child, and in a few other hard cases, such as rape and incest.

Although this would have been an unremarkable book in 1970, the popular evangelical community was outraged. Evangelical magazines and popular leaders across the country decried the book and its author, and evangelicals picketed outside the publisher’s office and urged booksellers to boycott the publisher. One writer called it a “monstrous book.” … The popular response to the book — despite its endorsements from Carl F.H. Henry, the first editor of Christianity Today, and Lew Smedes, an evangelical professor of ethics at Fuller Theological Seminary — was so overwhelmingly hostile that the book became the first ever withdrawn by InterVarsity Press over the course of nearly half a century in business.

The book was republished a year later by Eerdmans Press. In a preface, the author noted, “The heresy of which I appear to be guilty is that I cannot state categorically that human/personal life commences at day one of gestation. This, it seems, is being made a basic affirmation of evangelicalism, from which there can be no deviation. … No longer is it sufficient to hold classic evangelical affirmations on the nature of biblical revelation, the person and work of Christ, or justification by faith alone. In order to be labeled an evangelical, it is now essential to hold a particular view of the status of the embryo and fetus.”

 

 

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1 hour ago, Mole said:

Wildcat called them "pieces of shit" and evil. When I likened this to the Baptist preacher creating an enemy, you referred to me as "some dickeater ruining the discussion." Strawman, right.

I didn’t call all of em evil pieces of shit, just roughly 70% of white evangelicals.

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20 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

One of Cardinal Timothy Dolan's go to jokes is about the "nuns" being the fastest growing demographic. Of course he clarifies that he meant "nones". 

People grow up in a moral relativist culture and in a culture  that embodies hedonism, which everyone embraces to one extent or another. The end product is that many people are afraid to make moral judgments, both because you need a strong theological grounding (which they lack) and because it will make other people uncomfortable and make you personally unpopular.

The internal contradiction is that these people are looking for meaning in life and can only find it if they indeed do conclude that there is "one right way". You have to reject the idea of there being "many ways". 

Anyway there is no shortage of asshole christians (I am one) but very few of those who are reprehensible are catholic. And it's the evangelical's lack of a centralized authority that has led to their arrogance and lack of faith. The institutional church has value, warts and all. The alternative is worse.

America magazine asked the pope "Who are you?" His response was "I am a sinner". 

Catholicism isn't just one right way, it is "the way". And that scares moral relativsits, but it shouldn't. Of course Bishop Robert Barron says it far better than I can. Or if you're move of a populist, you can read about Bono's take on the same subject. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankviola/bono-on-jesus/

 

I've been a long time admirer of Bishop Barron because of the cogency with which he articulates his faith..But I have to take issue with your assertion about there being no reprehensible Catholics littering the religious landscape. They're everywhere, and they include cradle Catholics, "cracker Catholics" and what a priest friend derisively calls Calvinist Catholics.  Every hateful voice on FOX is Catholic. Add to that group people like Steve Bannon, Pruitt, Kellyane and others like them, it's clear to see that many of them don't give a flip about Catholic social teaching.

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