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Vic Mackey

30 For 30 On Michael Jordan: The Last Dance

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Not invested in this debate or even this thread, but wanted to commend this post for being one of the douche-iest messages ever set before a trusting public. Like, there's just so much fake macho here, it had me laughing for a few minutes. Well done, sir, and rep paid.

Ha, Lost my cool and stooped to his level.

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3 hours ago, Stunns38 said:


Got it, understood. I’m a huge Jordan fan being from Chicago but I’m honest enough to know that we most likely wouldn’t have 8-Peated even if MJ never retired the first time...a

Looking forward to this series.

I've always said there was no way the Bulls were going to 4-peat.  That 93 title was a grind, and that team was exhausted.  With the 92 Olympics, Scottie and Jordan had basically played 21 months of basketball without  a break

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You new here?


I guess so. Are you Kermit Washington or something? So I should know you hate the rockets?

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17 minutes ago, Wade said:

I've always said there was no way the Bulls were going to 4-peat.  That 93 title was a grind, and that team was exhausted.  With the 92 Olympics, Scottie and Jordan had basically played 21 months of basketball without  a break

Man, I don't know. Like I said, the '94 team won 55 games w/o Mike and pushed the Knicks to the brink. Hard to imagine a scenario where they don't win it all with MJ. '95 would have been the iffy one.

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Man, I don't know. Like I said, the '94 team won 55 games w/o Mike and pushed the Knicks to the brink. Hard to imagine a scenario where they don't win it all with MJ. '95 would have been the iffy one.

And that Pippen dunk over Ewing...play of the year.

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1 hour ago, Radical Larry said:

My next fantasy basketball team is going to be named "Bulls Traveling Cocaine Circus".

 

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51 minutes ago, Wade said:

I've always said there was no way the Bulls were going to 4-peat.  That 93 title was a grind, and that team was exhausted.  With the 92 Olympics, Scottie and Jordan had basically played 21 months of basketball without  a break

You explain why 93 was a grind Yet they still won. 94 wasn’t going to have that grind or exhaustion. 

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You explain why 93 was a grind Yet they still won. 94 wasn’t going to have that grind or exhaustion. 

Explain why not in 94. Not arguing just want your reasoning.

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This is all sorts of fucking awesome.  They capture the essence of everything.  My wife knows nothing about any of this but she already hates the Jerry's.

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

You explain why 93 was a grind Yet they still won. 94 wasn’t going to have that grind or exhaustion. 

'93 was the first time of their run that they didn't have HCA in the Finals.  They didn't even have Eastern Conference Finals HCA.  Their regular season win total was a ten game drop off from the previous year.  They won that title of grit and fumes.

I was a huge fan back then and lived in Illinois where I could watch any Bulls game.  It's hard to repeat, and I don't think anyone has three-peated since the Bulls.  It's hard to quantify, but just seeing them play almost every game for three years, one could tell that run was done.

Edited by Wade

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3 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

This is all sorts of fucking awesome.  They capture the essence of everything.  My wife knows nothing about any of this but she already hates the Jerry's.

Imagine fucking things up so bad that, despite being the GM for 6 NBA titles and winning 2 execute of the year awards, you'll always be remembered as the dumbass that broke up the Bulls.

It's been widely reported that MJ didn't want to retire after '98. But no Pippen, no Phil, and a looming NBA lockout forced his decision.

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11 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

This is all sorts of fucking awesome.  They capture the essence of everything.  My wife knows nothing about any of this but she already hates the Jerry's.

My nephew used to deliver beer to bars in Chicago.  One time won a lunch with Jerry Reinsdorf.  Took his ten year old kid who was excited as hell.  Said the guy was a supreme prick, didn't engage at all, and spent the entire lunch watching the TV screen over the bar, and giving one word answers and/or grunts to questions.  That came through in his interview on this show

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Kermit said:

Now he's rusty. Look, I get the need to prop up certain heroes but I can't figure out this obsession with Lebron and Jordan where it's never their fault when they lose and always their greatness when they win. He came back, played well in fact, and lost. You think that Jordan would've come back at all if he wasn't up to his usual standards? He knew how good he was, and what shape he needed to be in to succeed. He lost. It happens to the best of them. They retooled the next season and had one for the ages. 

Don't think this is the argument you want to make after an 18 month retirement.  When people retire, they usually mentally and physically aren't continuing to grind.  

Nobody knows what would have happened.  Nobody saw him being the best in the game so soon, nobody saw Pippen being as great as he would become and nobody saw them winning 3 straight.  Minus Jordan, the Bulls lost 2 more regular season games than the prior championship year and Pippen took Chicago to the Eastern Conference semis and extended the series to seven which is exactly how many it took the Rockets to beat the Knicks--who the hell knows what would have happened with Jordan.  Then Grant left the Bulls for the Orlando Magic  

The Rockets won twice--which was bad ass, and then got swept by the Sonics the following year, denying them a three-peat. Meanwhile, Michael playsa full season, and goes on to win three more championships, just like nobody predicted.  That's the facts--anything else is speculation.  That's what I love about it--whatever anybody speculates is as valid as it is invalid.  But anybody that bet against Jordan lost and they sure as hell lost a lot if they bet against him in his prime.  

Edited by Mdhorn

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'93 was the first time of their run that they didn't have HCA in the Finals.  They didn't even have Eastern Conference Finals HCA.  Their regular season win total was a ten game drop off from the previous year.  They won that title of grit and fumes.
I was a huge fan back then and lived in Illinois where I could watch any Bulls game.  It's hard to repeat, and I don't think anyone has three-peated since the Bulls.  It's hard to quantify, but just seeing them play almost every game for three years, one could tell that run was done.
Lakers had a 3-pear with Shaq and Kobe. Should have won a couple more.

Kobe was close to another 3-peat in the Gasol years and win 2 of 3 Finals.

Golden State just won 3 in 4 years and should have won 4 in a row were it not for Draymond's suspension.

The Heat won 2 in a row and almost won a 3rd. LeBron played in like 8 Finals I'm a row.

The Spurs won 3 titles in 5 years.

Bottom line, once you get a dominant team it isn't really that uncommon to win a bunch of titles. We will definitely see it again.

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But three straight--18 month layoff--three more is as dominant as we've seen since the Celtics of yore.  One of the big differences and probably why we'll see it again is that the big players all want to play together and form their own Dream Teams.  But the bar now to beat is to win three and repeat or win four.  That's a pretty high bar.  

I hated Chicagos GM but Jerry did a great job when he was there--however, it happened.  In a game of huge egos, he managed to fit the right pieces together for just long enough and then tried to get ahead of the inevitable and exploded the whole damn thing.   

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9 hours ago, Kermit said:

Now he's rusty. Look, I get the need to prop up certain heroes but I can't figure out this obsession with Lebron and Jordan where it's never their fault when they lose and always their greatness when they win. He came back, played well in fact, and lost. You think that Jordan would've come back at all if he wasn't up to his usual standards? He knew how good he was, and what shape he needed to be in to succeed. He lost. It happens to the best of them. They retooled the next season and had one for the ages. 

But was it really Jordan's "fault" that Chicago lost in '95 to Orlando?  He averaged 31.5/6.5/4.5 and shot 48% in that series, which was better than his regular season stats that year.  Pippen, Kukoc and Armstrong each saw their scoring averages and shooting percentages dip in the Orlando series compared to their regular season averages.  It was probably a foregone conclusion that their scoring averages would decrease given that Jordan had returned and was exerting himself in the playoffs, but they didn't hit shots when they needed to.  

My only point is that when assessing blame for Chicago's loss that year, he's not even close to being the top culprit.  Jordan did get his  pocket picked by Nick Anderson late in the Game 1 loss, but the bigger problems in that series for the Bulls were that the Magic were just too balanced, Kukoc's shot basically disappeared, and Chicago didn't deal well with the size and strength of Shaq and Horace Grant in the frontcourt.   

  

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4 hours ago, PilotsError said:

JFC.  Was the documentary, or the first episode, any good?

Yes, the first two episodes were badass.   

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Game MVP in 2 playoff  losses in Boston and Larry Legend left saying, "Holee fock..."

The next episode has to be about MJ's resiliency and getting absolutely beat the fuck up by Detroit, right?

 

 

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The music for this thing was off the charts. LL Cool J “I’m Bad” playing over the Celtics game highlights was insanely cool.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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Also, is the Ainge-MJ golf story not just a premonition of things to come for MJ racking up gambling losses and Ainge having the chops to become a GM?

That just seemed odd as fuck for those 2 to be golfing together.

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2 hours ago, Iceman said:

Game MVP in 2 playoff  losses in Boston and Larry Legend left saying, "Holee fock..."

The next episode has to be about MJ's resiliency and getting absolutely beat the fuck up by Detroit, right?

 

 

Episode 3 is the Rodman focused episode 

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1 hour ago, wutang75 said:

The music for this thing was off the charts. LL Cool J “I’m Bad” playing over the Celtics game highlights was insanely cool.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Yeah, the music was absolutely sick.  Perfect execution 

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Great 2 hour trip down memory lane. Looking forward to the rest of the Doc. 

That extra second hang Jordan had at the top of his jump is still amazing to see again.

I understand in today's social media world everyone has to shit on everything but I will never understand why people have to turn shit into a competition of Lebron vs. Jordan. Just enjoy seeing greatness first hand in a different era of basketball. 

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Loved it, can't wait for the rest. Anyone else annoyed at the editing? It's like they had all these awesome story lines, decided to chop them all up, and randomly order them in the episodes. 

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11 hours ago, Stunns38 said:


Explain why not in 94. Not arguing just want your reasoning.

As he said, a big part of the season they were running on fumes in 1992-93 was because Jordan and Pippen had no time off between the 91-92 season and the 92-93 season due to the Olympics.  They would have a normal off season before the 93-94 season so I don't see why they would be exhausted the same way.

You get pretty much the same team that had just won 3 straight, give them a full off season rest and add Toni Kukoc.

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14 hours ago, Rockethorn1978 said:

If they had kept that team together after 98 they would have won in 99 and probably not lost till the 2000 lakers won. 

Jordan retired to avoid losing to the Spurs

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As he said, a big part of the season they were running on fumes in 1992-93 was because Jordan and Pippen had no time off between the 91-92 season and the 92-93 season due to the Olympics.  They would have a normal off season before the 93-94 season so I don't see why they would be exhausted the same way.
You get pretty much the same team that had just won 3 straight, give them a full off season rest and add Toni Kukoc.

So, why wouldn’t 4 straight years of grueling playoffs plus the Olympics fatigue the Bulls despite the off season of rest? Plus Kukoc had to adjust to the NBA in 94 and we lost Horace. What we did in 94 without MJ really shows how great Pippen and Phil Jackson were.

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Shitting on Jerry Krause to his face regularly was pretty funny.

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1 hour ago, CBT said:

Loved it, can't wait for the rest. Anyone else annoyed at the editing? It's like they had all these awesome story lines, decided to chop them all up, and randomly order them in the episodes. 

 

It was annoying but a way for them to cover basically everything and everyone related to that season, give history on where the players came from, their journey to ending up on that Bulls team, and how it all came together. 

I hated it at first but understand why they are doing it. 

Next episode being the Rodman/Pistons episode should be great. 

Saw this on Twitter holy shit you would never see a roster like this in today's NBA-

EWAk8ssXgAA9au0?format=png&name=900x900

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, Michael Knight said:

At this point just spitting on his grave

I'm talking about 23 years ago. Jordan gave no fucks. 

Edited by Deej

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2 minutes ago, Deej said:

Shitting on Jerry Krause to his face regularly was pretty funny.

What a dumb, dick you have to be to do what he did. The owner letting him do it was the second dumbest, dick move.  What they did to Scottie was total BS, but he signed the contract.

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Posted (edited)

It was an asshole move, but Jordan was known to be a pretty big asshole. It was just amazing to watch it happen, and that nobody bothered to ever step in. Jordan could do whatever he wanted. I wonder how that would go over today, with everything making it on the the internet instantaneously. I knew there was no love lost, but how brazenly Jordan went after him was crazy. Somebody would capture that on their phone now and post it. 

Edited by Deej

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8 minutes ago, Deej said:

It was an asshole move, but Jordan was known to be a pretty big asshole. It was just amazing to watch it happen, and that nobody bothered to ever step in. Jordan could do whatever he wanted. I wonder how that would go over today, with everything making it on the the internet instantaneously. I knew there was no love lost, but how brazenly Jordan went after him was crazy. Somebody would capture that on their phone now and post it. 

Today he'd be outed within 30 seconds of a smart phone capturing him playing craps the night before a game.  

He's an asshole for damn sure, but Krause just thinking he could re load/re build is about as stupid a thought as I've heard in sports.  Jordans comment that the Cubs had been rebuilding for 50 years was gold.

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Jerry Reinsdorf trying to distance himself from the implosion is pretty comical.  Breaking up the Bulls was about money/ego, not trying to get a head start on the future.  Reinsdorf wasn't going to pay MJ/Pipp/Phil $60M to come back with the lockout looming.  He and Krause were lock-step.

Even in the documentary he can't help himself: "You never would have heard of Phil Jackson without Jerry Krause."

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Well, he’s may not have been wrong about that part. Would PJ have gone in to become one of the best coaches ever had Krause not given him the opportunity? Krause and Reinsdorf we’re stupid for not paying whatever they had to in order to keep the train rolling as long as possible, but Krause was pretty good at building a team around MJ that could compete every year.

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1 minute ago, Hate said:

Well, he’s may not have been wrong about that part. Would PJ have gone in to become one of the best coaches ever had Krause not given him the opportunity? Krause and Reinsdorf we’re stupid for not paying whatever they had to in order to keep the train rolling as long as possible, but Krause was pretty good at building a team around MJ that could compete every year.

True, true, which makes what he did all the more perplexing.  Jordan was the one piece you could not replace. He had to know MJ was gone once he removed the other pieces.  Ego, and little man syndrome.

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Just now, Hate said:

Well, he’s may not have been wrong about that part. Would PJ have gone in to become one of the best coaches ever had Krause not given him the opportunity? 

Saying, "We gave Phil Jackson the opportunity to coach the best player in the sport, and he's considered among the coaching greats largely because of that" is quite different than saying, "You wouldn't have even heard of him without us."

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I get where Reisndorf is coming from on the Pippen contract but that went to extremes.  Pippen ended up being the second best player in the league and at that point, do the right thing.  Jordan could have also held out unless Pippen got paid more.

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2 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

I get where Reisndorf is coming from on the Pippen contract but that went to extremes.  Pippen ended up being the second best player in the league and at that point, do the right thing.  Jordan could have also held out unless Pippen got paid more.

Reinsdorf saying yeah Scotty shouldn't have signed that long contract, like he was looking out for him was just comedy gold. He was laughing all the way to the bank for several years.

Yep MJ should have held out, why didn't he ?  Cause he was MJ.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

I get where Reisndorf is coming from on the Pippen contract but that went to extremes.  Pippen ended up being the second best player in the league and at that point, do the right thing.  Jordan could have also held out unless Pippen got paid more.

It was a different time.  I honestly have no issue with the "You signed the contract, honor it" mentality back then.  They weren't going to renegotiate before it ended, even Scottie knew that.  What irked Scottie is that it was blatantly clear that they had no desire to discuss his next contract in good faith, they almost certainly weren't going to bring him back, and they were looking to trade him while defending their 5th title, so they wouldn't lose him for nothing.

 

Jordan was grossly underpaid his entire career until they gave him massive "Thank you" salaries in his final two years.  Pipp was never going to get that.

Edited by aggie08

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There's a reason the Bulls were a cluster fuck before and after Jordan and it's cheep shit like the Jerry's pulled.

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16 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

I get where Reisndorf is coming from on the Pippen contract but that went to extremes.  Pippen ended up being the second best player in the league and at that point, do the right thing.  Jordan could have also held out unless Pippen got paid more.

That is an incredible premise.  Has a player in any sport ever held out for his bro?  I cannot think of one.

It probably would have been effective as hell.

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Can’t wait for the Rodman/pistons episode because I’m from michigan 40 mins out side of detroit and lived 20 mins from the palace. I loved through those years and I em was very young but remember some of it. I had all the bad boys posters shirts merch ect. Rodman’s style of play is how I got minutes in high school ball. Can’t freaking wait. This is so good

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Iceman said:

That is an incredible premise.  Has a player in any sport ever held out for his bro?  I cannot think of one.

It probably would have been effective as hell.

Chris Sale chopped up some jerseys because some people finally told Adam LaRoche to leave his fucking kid at home. That's about closest I can think of. What a tool. 

 

edit: Probably more germane, I suppose you could say something along the lines of LeBron having Cleveland over a barrel got guys like JR and Tristan contracts that probably outsized their worth. But he never formally held out

Edited by TommyGufano

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