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Rick Barnes thread

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

There will always be fans who hate the coach, unless that coach has a record like Eddie Reese. Most of those fans are just unknowledgeable.

For knowledgeable fans, the issue with Barnes wasn’t that they thought he sucked all along, it’s that he slowly started mysteriously underperforming for several years. For a long time he was elevating the Texas program to a level it had never achieved before and most knowledgeable fans appreciated that and understood that.

However, once it we became clear why he mysteriously started to underperform for several years, the administration had no other choice but to part ways with him, and you can’t blame fans for stating - correctly, that he had become a bad coach. He had become bad due to his condition.

The fact that he’s now recovered and back to coaching at an elite level again isn’t an argument that fans shouldn’t have called him out. They should have. His behavior is what caused the problems in the first place.

you also must not remember shaggy. a)90%+ of our fans from that board were neither knowledgeable nor reasonable, and b)i'm not calling out those who were. i just linked two different threads and cited i don't know how many specific quotes that were not at all in line with what you're describing. the overwhelming majority of shaggy hoops fans shared the sentiment that Barnes was a piece of shit coach who couldn't coach offense and whom Tennessee was stupid for hiring, all of which is factually wrong. and while i appreciate yours and ST's post, your responses aren't germane to the points i'm making. 

Edited by shadow_operative

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1 hour ago, shadow_operative said:

you also must not remember shaggy. a)90%+ of our fans from that board were neither knowledgeable nor reasonable, and b)i'm not calling out those who were. i just linked two different threads and cited i don't know how many specific quotes that were not at all in line with what you're describing. the overwhelming majority of shaggy hoops fans shared the sentiment that Barnes was a piece of shit coach who couldn't coach offense and whom Tennessee was stupid for hiring, all of which is factually wrong. and while i appreciate yours and ST's post, your responses aren't germane to the points i'm making. 

So you want the 90% of fans who don't really understand basketball to acknowledge he was a great coach, when in the last several years of his tenure at Texas he was a bad coach - by his own admission, by the way.

The guy was a train wreck in his personal life the last several years before he got fired. He did suck during that time. There is zero debate about that. And if you don't agree, you need to take it up with Barnes himself who admitted that his condition made him a bad coach during that time period.  At that point in time, any fan arguing that he sucked and saying Tennessee was stupid for hiring him wasn't wrong based upon the situation. Had fans known the real situation with him, they may not have judged him so harshly and given him the benefit of the doubt about getting his personal life back together. But they didn't.

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15 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

uhhhh......do you really not remember? i mean the general consensus was that he's an asshole, a terrible coach, the worst tourney coach ever, and a guy who gets less out of great talent than anybody else would. i mean seriously, the vitriol and hatred and just straight up biased and incorrect assessments of him as a man and a coach were as prevalent around here (and TOS) as one of my interminable seven-paragraph posts. it's hard to remember Texas fans being more wrong about anything.

our fans crushed Rick Barnes for being "too hard" on his players. now we've had five years of the opposite of that, while Rick is killing it at Tennessee where his players/recruits love how demanding he is, and yet it still hasn't sunk in for most of our fans that they were wrong. not sure what else needs to happen for our fans to see it. 

well technically not the worst EVER. but you gotta scroll a long fucking way (keep scrolling). Great coach when it comes to getting in the tourney. Fucking brutal record when he gets there. The sample size is too large to ignore. I don't hate Barnes. I actually root for him at Tenn. But I still think canning his ass was the correct move. Hiring Shaka was not. 

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/jim-boeheim-is-the-new-king-of-march-madness/

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Blotto said:
well technically not the worst EVER. but you gotta scroll a long fucking way (keep scrolling). Great coach when it comes to getting in the tourney. Fucking brutal record when he gets there. The sample size is too large to ignore. I don't hate Barnes. I actually root for him at Tenn. But I still think canning his ass was the correct move. Hiring Shaka was not. 
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/jim-boeheim-is-the-new-king-of-march-madness/


that's an old article which was talked about a ton on TOS, and the consensus was/is that the list was BS, and that the formula used unfairly punished successful coaches who've been coaching a long time/making the tourney year after year. that list had Shaka Smart 400 places ahead of Barnes, which is obviously laughable.

The truth is that Barnes is a mediocre-average tourney coach whose teams virtually always play to their seed. in 20+ tourney appearances he's had a major upset, what, once? To characterize him as a "brutal" tourney coach is simply way off the mark. He's a screen cap from one of the threads about this on TOS:

720ba9fe8374b5e1434192a17f922200.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited by shadow_operative

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

So you want the 90% of fans who don't really understand basketball to acknowledge he was a great coach, when in the last several years of his tenure at Texas he was a bad coach - by his own admission, by the way.

The guy was a train wreck in his personal life the last several years before he got fired. He did suck during that time. There is zero debate about that. And if you don't agree, you need to take it up with Barnes himself who admitted that his condition made him a bad coach during that time period.  At that point in time, any fan arguing that he sucked and saying Tennessee was stupid for hiring him wasn't wrong based upon the situation. Had fans known the real situation with him, they may not have judged him so harshly and given him the benefit of the doubt about getting his personal life back together. But they didn't.

you keep posting words at me without ever addressing what i'm actually saying. stop doing that. i've posted the receipts; the point i'm making is crystal clear. either address what i've actually said, or stop replying. jesus.

Edited by shadow_operative

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10 hours ago, Blotto said:

well technically not the worst EVER. but you gotta scroll a long fucking way (keep scrolling). Great coach when it comes to getting in the tourney. Fucking brutal record when he gets there. The sample size is too large to ignore. I don't hate Barnes. I actually root for him at Tenn. But I still think canning his ass was the correct move. Hiring Shaka was not. 

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/jim-boeheim-is-the-new-king-of-march-madness/

/lockthread

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

that's an old article which was talked about a ton on TOS, and the consensus was/is that the list was BS, and that the formula used unfairly punished successful coaches who've been coaching a long time/making the tourney year after year. that list had Shaka Smart 400 places ahead of Barnes, which is obviously laughable.

I ain't buying it. He finished fucking last out of 559 coaches. But fine, to humor you lets compare Barnes to the other coaches you associate him with. If I drop that list into Excel, total the  # of tournament games coached,  and then eliminate everybody that has coached in less than 20 NCAA tournament games, it arguably looks worse for Barnes. There are now 51 coaches, so it eliminates about 90% of the riff-raff. Barnes is obviously still in last place, but what you notice is that only 13 of the remaining coaches have a win total worse than their expected win total. Reducing the data set to peers that have coached in at least 20 tournament games makes Barnes' performance (-4.1 wins) to average (+1.8 wins) noticeably worse, which just reinforces the point that Barnes is a historically shitty tournament coach.

Most coaches that have coached in a lot of tourney games apparently  manage to exceed expectation occasionally and get hot. But not Barnes. Lets consider his best run in 2003. He got a little lucky and played teams seeded lower than would be expected (16,9,5,7,3) vs (16,8,4,2,1), but you can only play the teams that make it, so I don't hold that against him.  Oh hey, look at that....Boeheim wins it all as a #3 seed and Izzo makes the Elite 8 as a #7 seed, both significantly exceeding seeding expectations. How can that be? Who knows, it must be sorcery because Barnes hasn't ever figured out how to do that in 24 trips to the tournament.

image.thumb.png.00e07fb326232ff5d9a6dce026157e49.png

Fucking lulz at #12. 

Edited by Blotto

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37 minutes ago, SwanderedTalent said:

I question the value of a methodology that says there were 46 better tournament coaches than Bob Knight.

Yeah, Knight gets screwed here because he is old as dirt and this data set starts in 1985, which eliminates the majority of his success (2 national championships, 1 final 4, and 2 elite eight runs). For the portion of his career that is captured here, you have 19 tournaments with one great run (87 championship) but 9 first round exits and 3 second round exits. The back half of his career was not nearly as successful as the first half. If the dataset used games from 1970 on, he would be much, much higher.

As Barnes started coaching in 87-88, the entirety of his career vs his peers is represented in this data.

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8 hours ago, Blotto said:

 For the portion of his career that is captured here, you have 19 tournaments with one great run (87 championship) but 9 first round exits and 3 second round exits. The back half of his career was not nearly as successful as the first half.

Thread plot twist:

Bobby Knight is overrated!

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