Critical Race Theory policy in hiring at UT

[Nice Guy Eddie 13388]

8 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

So, just to be clear you are ok with little elementary aged children being segregated into oppressor and oppressed categories?  You are ok with little children being told to chose from a matrix their privilege's? 

What about the lawsuit in LV where a black mother of a son who is so light most think him white, and thus must attend and state in their mandatory course that required students to reveal their race, gender, sexual orientation and disabilities and then determine if privilege or oppression is attached to those identities.  Just to be clear, you are 100% cool with all this?

No one has produced evidence this is occurring outside of what their brother-in-law's best friend said is occurring in another state.

[wildcat09 29146]

2 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

anti-racism is like anti-facism

The very freaking thing they are against. 

Oh my god, you think this is clever. You poor thing.

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Because that is not how these examples are being framed.  Certainly not my brothers who son has sever learning disabilities and god damn well isn't privileged at all other than he was born into a 2 parent household  and is being told he's an "oppressor"

And if a teacher is telling a grade student that they are an "oppressor", then yeah, fucked up. The framing of this is based on anecdotal evidence and not anything substantive to have a fit about. You are choosing to latch onto absurd hearsay rather than reality. 

[Captainant 27250]

Just now, BabaYaga said:

There are dozens of other examples all across the country stating the same thing.  But by all means, keep up the good work.  

yes, all the examples you cited previously, which were written by a right wing think tank, and cited his own personal blog as the authoritative source of information.

We covered this two pages ago. Get with the program babs.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

Oh my god, you think this is clever. You poor thing.

And you think I give a single shit about the drivel you post.

[BabaYaga 15190]

4 minutes ago, CDAK said:

I'm not insisting that there are "CRT professors." I really don't care. "Professor," "doctor," "cosseted butterfly," whatever term you want to use is fine. This is tangential.

I thought CRT was prevalent in DEI initiatives, at least at my company. You say, "that's impossible, by definition DEI initiatives cannot be based on CRT." I think you're drawing too fine (and blurry) a distinction. But, I'll use "antiracism" in lieu of CRT going forward when discussing the basis for certain DEI initiatives if that's allowed by the professors.

 

It's the same excuse for failed communism - the old "no true Scotsman" defense that what is being taught/implemented isn't "real" XYZ.......

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

2 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

And you think I give a single shit about the drivel you post.

I mean, you do respond

[Macklemore 2905]

16 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

And no one is saying that. What they are saying is, "hey kids, yall have a great life and your parents have given you what you need and more to succeed in life. Now, let me tell you about the others in this world and how your experience doesn't necessarily relate to 99% of the current human experience. And if you are white, nothing wrong with that, but you may want to know that your experience will more than likely be better than anyone elses."

Why does that scare you? How does that take from you? Your mindset perpetuates the issues because you would rather build a bubble around yourself and your children rather than accept the obvious and work to address it. And now they will grow up oblivious to the issues because they only got a small controlled view of the world, skewed thru your fear. 

The America that I was taught to love is one where we strive for equal opportunity for everyone. Have we failed to do so for most of the existence this country. Absolutely.  That is why I have stated that systemic racism is historical fact and effects of something like redlining is still felt to this day. Also in an earlier post, I said that I would support reparations in the form of downpayment assistance/subsidies to families who suffered as a result of it. That is "legacy" systemic racism - that does not exist today. For example, I don't believe a black person that goes to UT for undergrad and law school is going to be discriminated against in law firm recruiting because of their color of skin. There is discrimination when hiring summer associates which applies to everyone - grades. There is a very angry, hateful edge to this shit and I hate how it is seemingly designed to create tribalism and resentment when we are living in an age when racist attitudes are unacceptable to the vast, overwhelming majority of people. Where do Asians fit in this oppressor/oppressed matrix. How about Jews - persecuted for millennia and now they are an oppressor. It is a construct that addresses a white boogeyman overlord pulling the strings when the fact is that this country is more diverse than it ever has been with successful people of every color and religion.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Macklemore

[wildcat09 29146]

Just now, Johnny Sack said:

And you think I give a single shit about the drivel you post.

If antifa are fascist, why are they lacking in so many characteristics endemic to fascism? Where's the appeal to tradition and rejection of modernism? Where's the contempt for the weak? Where's the machismo? Where's the fear of an invader? Where's the desire for a social rebirth? Where's the ultranationalist sentiment? Where's the leader?

For those of you hoping to learn something, this is why critical thinking is important. Because Johnny boy said something extremely stupid and he lacks the critical thinking skills that would help him understand why it is stupid.

[BabaYaga 15190]

Just now, Captainant said:

yes, all the examples you cited previously, which were written by a right wing think tank, and cited his own personal blog as the authoritative source of information.

We covered this two pages ago. Get with the program babs.

Literally just posted a lawsuit in Vegas about a black mother with an extremely light skinned son who is mistaken for being white and thus forced to label their privilege's, oppression, etc.  Except he's not white, and yet is being singled out as such.  All for the color of his skin....

Again, you see these example popping up all over.  

Or does this not count?

 

[Captainant 27250]

2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Literally just posted a lawsuit in Vegas about a black mother with an extremely light skinned son who is mistaken for being white and thus forced to label their privilege's, oppression, etc.  Except he's not white, and yet is being singled out as such.  All for the color of his skin....

Again, you see these example popping up all over.  

Or does this not count?

So you're citing a charter school, which people apply to and CHOOSE to attend. I thought you and yours like school choice? Shouldn't that parents recourse be to move their child to a different school since they aren't compelled to attend that one?

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

1 minute ago, Macklemore said:

The America that I was taught to love is one where we strive for equal opportunity for everyone. Have we failed to do so for most of the existence this country. Absolutely.  That is why I have stated that systemic racism is historical fact and effects of something like redlining is still felt to this day. Also in an earlier post, I said that I would support reparations in the form of downpayment assistance/subsidies to families who suffered as a result of it. That is "legacy" systemic racism - that does not exist today. For example, I don't believe a black person that goes to UT for undergrad and law school is going to be discriminated against in law firm recruiting because of their color of skin. There is discrimination when hiring summer associates which applies to everyone - grades. There is a very angry, hateful edge to this shit and I hate how it is seemingly designed to create tribalism and resentment when racist attitudes are unacceptable to the vast, overwhelming majority of people. Where do Asians fit in this oppressor/oppressed matrix. How about Jews - persecuted for millennia and now they are an oppressor. It is construct that addresses a white boogeyman overlord pulling the strings when the fact is that this country is more diverse than it ever has been with successful people of every color and religion.

Because we still have systems (especially in justice) that knowingly or unknowingly tilt towards impacting certain races and incomes vastly different than rich white folks.

The drug war was an example I brought up earlier. Fair intent to get drugs off the streets but what happened was a whole generation of black males got incarcerated for minor crimes leading to a generation of black kids without fathers. You had different penalties for those who had cocaine rather than crack. White guys getting busted with pot had their hands slapped while black people with pot got max penalties (this is from personal experience). 

This doesnt necessarily stem from some nefarious body making racist laws (it might), but it is something we need to accept and address and look to see if other parts of our lives have these imbalances. 

[BabaYaga 15190]

2 minutes ago, Captainant said:

So you're citing a charter school, which people apply to and CHOOSE to attend. I thought you and yours like school choice? Shouldn't that parents recourse be to move their child to a different school since they aren't compelled to attend that one?

[washparkhorn 9931]

Something doesn't quite add up. Prestigious private schools firmly ask families with disruptive parents to find other schools for their children. Period. 

The school, as described, sounds hard-up for money, lowered its standards, and the chickens have come home to roost, if the self-reporting is accurate (which I question).

Good schools prepare kids for the real world, not 1950's America.

[wildcat09 29146]

The idea that racism is gone because a black law school graduate can get a job is just 

[Dahobbs 17407]

21 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

It's the same excuse for failed communism - the old "no true Scotsman" defense that what is being taught/implemented isn't "real" XYZ.......

Cite the sections of the Washington law that you have a problem with and why. Let's talk substance, not insinuation. 

[Brisketexan 104226]

19 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

And no one is saying that. What they are saying is, "hey kids, yall have a great life and your parents have given you what you need and more to succeed in life. Now, let me tell you about the others in this world and how your experience doesn't necessarily relate to 99% of the current human experience. And if you are white, nothing wrong with that, but you may want to know that your experience will more than likely be better than anyone elses."

Why does that scare you? How does that take from you? Your mindset perpetuates the issues because you would rather build a bubble around yourself and your children rather than accept the obvious and work to address it. And now they will grow up oblivious to the issues because they only got a small controlled view of the world, skewed thru your fear. 

Bolded for importance.

11 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

There are dozens of other examples all across the country stating the same thing.  But by all means, keep up the good work.  

And there are tens of thousands of examples of good and powerful common sense lessons for school kids of all ages to recognize historical systemic issues, and recognize the places, privileges, and disadvantages that people -- including themselves -- may fall into due to no fault or excellence of their own.  Those don't grab headlines or the outrage of partisan think tanks, though.

We can find dozens of examples of stupid/poorly thought out language and techniques in schools that try to address the bigger picture of race.  For example, I think most of us here think that the use of the term "oppressor and oppressed" as applied to school-age kids is not helpful.

We can also find dozens of examples of racist conduct, happening in real-time, among school kids right now, today.  Kids who tell their classmates they blame them for COVID because they are chinese, kids calling other kids wetbacks and saying that they'll call border patrol on them, all that shit.  It happens.  In fact, it's been INCREASING in frequency in recent years, after a long trend of declining.

I don't want kids called oppressor or oppressed.  I also don't want them to be racist shitbags, or to allow racist shitbaggery.  An honest evaluation and reckoning of our country's history on race, where that's left us today, and the kind of things we should think about doing in light of those facts, is exactly what I want an educated, critical-thinking society to do.  Which means that the discussion belongs in the place where we should learn to do those things: school.  And those concepts fall squarely in the bullseye of the broad concept of "critical race theory," so using a broad brush and creating an outsized boogeyman is not only pointless, it's counterproductive.  Our society has been deeply emotionally invested in the approach of never admitting that we did anything wrong.  And if we did, that was a long time ago, so get over it, things are all good now.  It's a lie, it's stupid, and it condemns us to stay in the same rut we've been in.

We fucked over black people.  We enslaved them.  We lynched them.  We enacted whole sets of laws to fuck them once they were freed.  We turned dogs and water hoses on them.  We redlined their neighborhoods.  We denied them access to government programs to help people move up, when white people got full access.  Etc. etc. ad infinitum.  We need to acknowledge ALL of those things.  And then acknowledge the reality that the effects of 400 years of fuckery just might not be erased just yet.  And then.....have a thoughtful conversation about how we, as a collective group called "Americans," can work to remedy some of that.  It baffles me why this is so fucking hard.  But apparently, it's not just hard -- it's a threat to all of Western Civilization to even talk about it.

[Catdaddyhorn 3438]

10 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Because we still have systems (especially in justice) that knowingly or unknowingly tilt towards impacting certain races and incomes vastly different than rich white folks.

The drug war was an example I brought up earlier. Fair intent to get drugs off the streets but what happened was a whole generation of black males got incarcerated for minor crimes leading to a generation of black kids without fathers. You had different penalties for those who had cocaine rather than crack. White guys getting busted with pot had their hands slapped while black people with pot got max penalties (this is from personal experience). 

This doesnt necessarily stem from some nefarious body making racist laws (it might), but it is something we need to accept and address and look to see if other parts of our lives have these imbalances. 

Richard Nixon, Lee Atwater, and recorded history disagree with this assumption.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

23 minutes ago, Macklemore said:

There is a very angry, hateful edge to this shit and I hate how it is seemingly designed to create tribalism and resentment when we are living in an age when racist attitudes are unacceptable to the vast, overwhelming majority of people. 

who did you vote for in '16 and '20?

[NWBuck 8536]

Problem solved, folks.. 

Texas Passes Law Allowing Students To Lasso Teachers Who Promote Critical Race Theory, Drive Them Out Of Town

 

 

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

11 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Richard Nixon, Lee Atwater, and recorded history disagree with this assumption.

Oh, I know what reality is. I just didn't want to turn off the snowflakes who think there are no nefarious laws developed for a specific reason. 

[wildcat09 29146]

16 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Bolded for importance.

And there are tens of thousands of examples of good and powerful common sense lessons for school kids of all ages to recognize historical systemic issues, and recognize the places, privileges, and disadvantages that people -- including themselves -- may fall into due to no fault or excellence of their own.  Those don't grab headlines or the outrage of partisan think tanks, though.

We can find dozens of examples of stupid/poorly thought out language and techniques in schools that try to address the bigger picture of race.  For example, I think most of us here think that the use of the term "oppressor and oppressed" as applied to school-age kids is not helpful.

We can also find dozens of examples of racist conduct, happening in real-time, among school kids right now, today.  Kids who tell their classmates they blame them for COVID because they are chinese, kids calling other kids wetbacks and saying that they'll call border patrol on them, all that shit.  It happens.  In fact, it's been INCREASING in frequency in recent years, after a long trend of declining.

I don't want kids called oppressor or oppressed.  I also don't want them to be racist shitbags, or to allow racist shitbaggery.  An honest evaluation and reckoning of our country's history on race, where that's left us today, and the kind of things we should think about doing in light of those facts, is exactly what I want an educated, critical-thinking society to do.  Which means that the discussion belongs in the place where we should learn to do those things: school.  And those concepts fall squarely in the bullseye of the broad concept of "critical race theory," so using a broad brush and creating an outsized boogeyman is not only pointless, it's counterproductive.  Our society has been deeply emotionally invested in the approach of never admitting that we did anything wrong.  And if we did, that was a long time ago, so get over it, things are all good now.  It's a lie, it's stupid, and it condemns us to stay in the same rut we've been in.

We fucked over black people.  We enslaved them.  We lynched them.  We enacted whole sets of laws to fuck them once they were freed.  We turned dogs and water hoses on them.  We redlined their neighborhoods.  We denied them access to government programs to help people move up, when white people got full access.  Etc. etc. ad infinitum.  We need to acknowledge ALL of those things.  And then acknowledge the reality that the effects of 400 years of fuckery just might not be erased just yet.  And then.....have a thoughtful conversation about how we, as a collective group called "Americans," can work to remedy some of that.  It baffles me why this is so fucking hard.  But apparently, it's not just hard -- it's a threat to all of Western Civilization to even talk about it.

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it."

[BabaYaga 15190]

11 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And there are tens of thousands of examples of good and powerful common sense lessons for school kids of all ages to recognize historical systemic issues, and recognize the places, privileges, and disadvantages that people -- including themselves -- may fall into due to no fault or excellence of their own.  Those don't grab headlines or the outrage of partisan think tanks, though.

Funny how you had a different perspective when we brought up this very line of reasoning for LE's.....but I digress.

 

12 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

We can find dozens of examples of stupid/poorly thought out language and techniques in schools that try to address the bigger picture of race.  For example, I think most of us here think that the use of the term "oppressor and oppressed" as applied to school-age kids is not helpful.

And yet it's happening

 

12 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

We can also find dozens of examples of racist conduct, happening in real-time, among school kids right now, today.  Kids who tell their classmates they blame them for COVID because they are chinese, 

Covid, yes, as it's a singular event.  

 

14 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I don't want kids called oppressor or oppressed.  I also don't want them to be racist shitbags, or to allow racist shitbaggery

Good, then we agree that CRT has to - as this is one of THE central tenets of the theory and it's roots in power dynamics

 

15 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

An honest evaluation and reckoning of our country's history on race, where that's left us today, and the kind of things we should think about doing in light of those facts, is exactly what I want an educated, critical-thinking society to do

Now you're getting into the straw.  To conflate a disregard for the tactics of CRT as a dismissal of wanting to improve race relations is disingenuous.  CRT isn't about a solution.  It's about power dynamics.  It assigns oppressor, blame and victimhood status to people solely based on their race.  As stated earlier, it it has a resonance of Marxist ideology as each see the world in terms of power dynamics and unjust institutional structures.  

[BabaYaga 15190]

3 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it."

Leave all the recent "woke" soft-science PhD's alone

[Brisketexan 104226]

7 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Funny how you had a different perspective when we brought up this very line of reasoning for LE's.....but I digress.

 

And yet it's happening

 

Covid, yes, as it's a singular event.  

 

Good, then we agree that CRT has to - as this is one of THE central tenets of the theory and it's roots in power dynamics

 

Now you're getting into the straw.  To conflate a disregard for the tactics of CRT as a dismissal of wanting to improve race relations is disingenuous.  CRT isn't about a solution.  It's about power dynamics.  It assigns oppressor, blame and victimhood status to people solely based on their race.  As stated earlier, it it has a resonance of Marxist ideology as each see the world in terms of power dynamics and unjust institutional structures.  

Boy.....you didn't understand a single damned thing I posted.

Oh well, I tried.  Off to the weekend.

[synoptic 138]

I prefer no moral values preaching nor worldview installement in public schools.  They should be secular.  Teach grammar, math, science, etc.  There is no need to have any worldview challenging to learn the basic subjects taught in k-12.  Enfore rules (e.g. no cheating, plagarism, etc) and kids can infer what is needed for primary education.    

Edited May 21, 2021 by synoptic

[Johnny Sack 8397]

22 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Richard Nixon, Lee Atwater, and recorded history disagree with this assumption.

And plenty of the Congressional Black Caucus along with black ministers were some of the biggest supporters of enhanced penalties and lengthy sentences for heroin in the 60s and 70s and crack cocaine in the 80s and 90s.  It was destroying their communities.

Black support for the drug war didn't just grow in New York. At the federal level, members of the newly-formed Congressional Black Caucus met with President Richard Nixon, urging him to ramp up the drug war as fast as possible. But the drug epidemic was especially bad in New York, and especially in black neighborhoods.

"The silent black majority of Harlem and New York City felt constantly accosted by drug addicts, by pushers, by crime," said Michael Javen Fortner, a political scientist and historian from Rutgers University who recently wrote on the issue.

https://www.wnyc.org/story/312823-black-leaders-once-championed-strict-drug-laws-they-now-seek-dismantle/

When President Ronald Reagan signed the Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1986 into law — the law that punished crack cocaine dealers far more harshly than powder cocaine dealers — Harlem's Rep. Charlie Rangel stood right behind Reagan. Crack dealers, many of whom were black, got harsher sentences than those who dealt powder cocaine, many of whom were white. And Congressional Black Caucus members pushed Reagan to create the Office of National Drug Control Policy.

Then came the massive 1994 Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act, which included longer sentences for first-time offenders. An influential group of black pastors wrote to the Congressional Black Caucus, "While we do not agree with every provision in the crime bill, we do believe and emphatically support the bill's goal to save our communities, and most importantly, our children."

https://www.investors.com/politics/columnists/drug-laws-racism-democrats-support/

 

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2016/02/why-many-black-politicians-backed-the-1994-crime-bill-championed-by-the-clintons.html

 

The war on drugs is a giant mess. And should have ended 20 years ago or more when it was obvious it was a loser.  But a whole lot of people share the blame for it.

[wildcat09 29146]

2 minutes ago, synoptic said:

I prefer no moral values preaching nor worldview installement in public schools.  They should be secular.  Teach grammar, math, science, etc.  There is no need to have any worldview challenging to learn the basic subjects taught in k-12.  Enfore rules (e.g. no cheating, plagarism, etc) and kids can infer what is needed.    

So just don't teach social studies at all?

I literally cannot imagine a quicker way to train humanity to exterminate itself. 

[Captainant 27250]

2 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

And plenty of the Congressional Black Caucus along with black ministers were some of the biggest supporters of enhanced penalties and lengthy sentences for heroin in the 60s and 70s and crack cocaine in the 80s and 90s.  It was destroying their communities.

Black support for the drug war didn't just grow in New York. At the federal level, members of the newly-formed Congressional Black Caucus met with President Richard Nixon, urging him to ramp up the drug war as fast as possible. But the drug epidemic was especially bad in New York, and especially in black neighborhoods.

"The silent black majority of Harlem and New York City felt constantly accosted by drug addicts, by pushers, by crime," said Michael Javen Fortner, a political scientist and historian from Rutgers University who recently wrote on the issue.

https://www.wnyc.org/story/312823-black-leaders-once-championed-strict-drug-laws-they-now-seek-dismantle/

When President Ronald Reagan signed the Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1986 into law — the law that punished crack cocaine dealers far more harshly than powder cocaine dealers — Harlem's Rep. Charlie Rangel stood right behind Reagan. Crack dealers, many of whom were black, got harsher sentences than those who dealt powder cocaine, many of whom were white. And Congressional Black Caucus members pushed Reagan to create the Office of National Drug Control Policy.

Then came the massive 1994 Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act, which included longer sentences for first-time offenders. An influential group of black pastors wrote to the Congressional Black Caucus, "While we do not agree with every provision in the crime bill, we do believe and emphatically support the bill's goal to save our communities, and most importantly, our children."

https://www.investors.com/politics/columnists/drug-laws-racism-democrats-support/

 

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2016/02/why-many-black-politicians-backed-the-1994-crime-bill-championed-by-the-clintons.html

 

The war on drugs is a giant mess. And should have ended 20 years ago or more when it was obvious it was a loser.  But a whole lot of people share the blame for it.

Ah here we are at "both sides". Very good

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

2 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

And plenty of the Congressional Black Caucus along with black ministers were some of the biggest supporters of enhanced penalties and lengthy sentences for heroin in the 60s and 70s and crack cocaine in the 80s and 90s.  It was destroying their communities.

Black support for the drug war didn't just grow in New York. At the federal level, members of the newly-formed Congressional Black Caucus met with President Richard Nixon, urging him to ramp up the drug war as fast as possible. But the drug epidemic was especially bad in New York, and especially in black neighborhoods.

"The silent black majority of Harlem and New York City felt constantly accosted by drug addicts, by pushers, by crime," said Michael Javen Fortner, a political scientist and historian from Rutgers University who recently wrote on the issue.

https://www.wnyc.org/story/312823-black-leaders-once-championed-strict-drug-laws-they-now-seek-dismantle/

When President Ronald Reagan signed the Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1986 into law — the law that punished crack cocaine dealers far more harshly than powder cocaine dealers — Harlem's Rep. Charlie Rangel stood right behind Reagan. Crack dealers, many of whom were black, got harsher sentences than those who dealt powder cocaine, many of whom were white. And Congressional Black Caucus members pushed Reagan to create the Office of National Drug Control Policy.

Then came the massive 1994 Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act, which included longer sentences for first-time offenders. An influential group of black pastors wrote to the Congressional Black Caucus, "While we do not agree with every provision in the crime bill, we do believe and emphatically support the bill's goal to save our communities, and most importantly, our children."

https://www.investors.com/politics/columnists/drug-laws-racism-democrats-support/

 

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2016/02/why-many-black-politicians-backed-the-1994-crime-bill-championed-by-the-clintons.html

 

The war on drugs is a giant mess. And should have ended 20 years ago or more when it was obvious it was a loser.  But a whole lot of people share the blame for it.

Cool. So should we accept that it was a failure and try to fix the mess? Or should we recoil into our safespace and say, "I'll hand you a little bit of money to make things square. Now stop bitching about your situation."

[Johnny Sack 8397]

2 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Ah here we are at "both sides". Very good

Well it was both sides you dumb bastard.  You think Ronald Reagan was passing laws by himself in 1986?  You think Bill Clinton is a republican?  Or the CBC?  Or black ministers who supported strict drug laws for heroin and crack that was turning their neighborhoods into a zombie apocolypse?

 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

2 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Cool. So should we accept that it was a failure and try to fix the mess? Or should we recoil into our safespace and say, "I'll hand you a little bit of money to make things square. Now stop bitching about your situation."

Damnit I said in the post you quoted it is a failure and should have been done away with decades ago. No one wants the war on drugs to end more than me.  I would legalize them all.  And spend a fraction of the money it costs treating addicts.  

[synoptic 138]

10 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

So just don't teach social studies at all?

I literally cannot imagine a quicker way to train humanity to exterminate itself. 

I didn't say that.  But public school social studies is probably not what is keeping humanity from exterminating itself. 

If we want to start preaching moral values in schools and turn them into chapel minus the metaphysics, then we have the problem of who gets to decide what morals to teach and how.  Maybe instead just teach them the basic academics taught in primary education for centuries.  People don't need the state to install moral values.  

Edited May 21, 2021 by synoptic

[wildcat09 29146]

Just now, synoptic said:

I didn't say that.  But public school social stidues is probably not what is keeping humanity from exterminating itself. 

If we want to start preaching moral values in schools and turn them into chapel minus the metaphysics, then we have the problem of who gets to decide what morals to teach and how.  Maybe instead just teach them the basic academics taught in primary education for centuries.  People don't need the state to install moral values.  

Morals have been taught to students in primary schools as long as they've existed. Schools today are actually better than they've ever been at explaining ethical and religious ideas and traditions without preaching them than they've ever been in the history of this country. 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

6 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Ah here we are at "both sides". Very good

i mean, it was both sides. wasn't that a fairly bipartisan effort spanning a couple of decades?

[synoptic 138]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

Morals have been taught to students in primary schools as long as they've existed. Schools today are actually better than they've ever been at explaining ethical and religious ideas and traditions without preaching them than they've ever been in the history of this country. 

You have a scale to measure the quality of ethical and religious teaching in primary schools?  Sounds like nonsense.

 

[wildcat09 29146]

Just now, synoptic said:

You have a scale to measure the quality of ethical and religious teaching in primary schools?  Sounds like nonsense.

 

It's not quantifiable obviously, but for most of American history schools just preached Christian morality. Now they typically teach about other religions and belief systems as well and explain some of the basic ideas they hold. I'm sure some teachers are better at teaching and not preaching than others, but it's almost certainly much better than it was in say, 1950.

[Captainant 27250]

2 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

i mean, it was both sides. wasn't that a fairly bipartisan effort spanning a couple of decades?

It was, and it was from the dems chasing the votes they lost after passing the civil and voting rights acts. And likewise, the folks who were instrumental to the passage of the 90s crime bill have since said they made a mistake and have been working to fix it. 

And their efforts to address those past misdeeds is why this thread exists. It upsets the folks who enjoy the disparity in treatment at the hands of cops and the law writ large, and would rather nobody reflect critically on it. 

[Dahobbs 17407]

13 minutes ago, synoptic said:

I didn't say that.  But public school social studies is probably not what is keeping humanity from exterminating itself. 

If we want to start preaching moral values in schools and turn them into chapel minus the metaphysics, then we have the problem of who gets to decide what morals to teach and how.  Maybe instead just teach them the basic academics taught in primary education for centuries.  People don't need the state to install moral values.  

What classes and concepts should be removed from schooling in your view? Be specific, because it is very difficult to tell what you are suggesting. Are classes on philosophy and ethics inappropriate? Cultural studies? What about critical thinking? Does a lesson plan on empathy get cut as well? In terms of morality, can schools still reprimand a student for bullying? For cheating? These concepts have been taught for literally thousands of years in schools throughout the world.  I don't see how you divorce these concepts from education and still have anything resembling school. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Dahobbs

[wildcat09 29146]

Also, an educational system that trained humans to build AI and nuclear weapons but taught them no history would absolutely lead to the extermination of the human race. You shouldn't have to think about it for more than 30 seconds to understand why.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

 

5 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

What classes and concepts should be removed from schooling in your view? Be specific, because it is very difficult to tell what you are suggesting. Are classes on philosophy and ethics inappropriate? Cultural studies? What about critical thinking? Does a lesson plan on empathy get cut as well? In terms of morality, can schools still reprimand a student for bullying? For cheating? These concepts have been taught for literally thousands of years in schools throughout the world.  I don't see how you divorce these concepts from education and still have anything resembling school. 

I feel very strongly that CRT is a destructive theory that creates division through flawed ideology.  I believe it also harms the people it purports to help by promoting a victim mentality, which is not healthy nor does it engender opportunities for growth and learning. We should aim for unity, inclusion, forgiveness and respect, not ideas that promote racial division in our children.

[washparkhorn 9931]

1 minute ago, Johnny Sack said:

promoting a victim mentality

Well, we agree that is an important element of the equation - especially the backlash.

[Captainant 27250]

5 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

I feel very strongly that CRT is a destructive theory that creates division through flawed ideology.  I believe it also harms the people it purports to help by promoting a victim mentality, which is not healthy nor does it engender opportunities for growth and learning. We should aim for unity, inclusion, forgiveness and respect, not ideas that promote racial division in our children.

If all you've ever known is privilege, then equality feels like oppression. 

But it is funny how you are so concerned about preventing a victim mentality when it seems to be the primary language of you and babs and PGLaggy. 

[Dahobbs 17407]

4 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

 

I feel very strongly that CRT is a destructive theory that creates division through flawed ideology.  I believe it also harms the people it purports to help by promoting a victim mentality, which is not healthy nor does it engender opportunities for growth and learning. We should aim for unity, inclusion, forgiveness and respect, not ideas that promote racial division in our children.

I feel very strongly that you don't have an understanding of what CRT actually is. First, I would call it a framework for approaching a problem, not an ideology. Second, there are multiple versions of this framework utilized by different people. Like @TwiceHorn, I have no doubt that certain people have utilized ideas shared by variations of CRT to arrive at destructive conclusions or approaches to racial relationships. But I also think many of the central ideas of CRT provide valuable insight in understanding history and its long lasting effects on racial dynamics. CRT itself isn't taught as a course to students in primary school, and no evidence of that has been shown. At most we've you've provided some examples of lessons that may be loosely associated with some of the ideas found in CRT. Some of those lessons sound poorly thought out and unlikely to be beneficial to students. But, really you could say that about any particular lesson on any subject. 

[jimmyjazz 45428]

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

But as for your friend's son, he's not going to live his life without someone calling him a spic, doubt his American-ness, question his loyalty to his country, etc.  Because all of that shit happens right now to people who look like him/have last names like his.

My wife had two kids from her previous marriage.  She is of classic western European heritage -- a bit of French, a bit of German, a lot of English, what have you.  Her ex is from Bangladesh.  100% pure Bengal.

They had two kids (my stepkids).  My stepdaughter more or less looks Bengal, maybe a bit lighter skinned.  My stepson looks Mexican.  A handsome Mexican, but Mexican.  He gets all the associated shit, but is a smart, chill dude and it rolls off his back.

Your looks dictate how people relate to you, right out of the gate.  I'm sure the Sack is empathetic.

[Mole 4318]

34 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

So just don't teach social studies at all?

I literally cannot imagine a quicker way to train humanity to exterminate itself. 

English class is now just reading television instruction manuals.  No literature allowed. No writing allowed either, except for maybe instruction manuals.

Art class is mixing colors and nothing else. Certainly no looking at or making art.

Music? I guess you could study the harmonic series, otherwise you’re out of luck. Certainly no music making or listening allowed.

History? Nope. Not even memorizing a list of dates.

The idea of not exposing students to a worldview or moral instruction isn’t possible. Seeking to return to an older, “3 Rs” approach is more just stating a preference for teaching a preapproved worldview/morality.

[Hank Scorpio 17704]

Has anyone pointed out yet that the minorities are the real racists? 

[jimmyjazz 45428]

3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I don't agree with labeling people oppressors/oppressed at the primary school level.

You might not agree with it, but it should at least be acknowledged that minorities are having that conversation at that age.  If those who tend to be oppressed are learning the lesson early on, maybe those who tend to oppress need to learn the same lesson at the same age, regardless of how icky it is.

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

 

25 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Damnit I said in the post you quoted it is a failure and should have been done away with decades ago. No one wants the war on drugs to end more than me.  I would legalize them all.  And spend a fraction of the money it costs treating addicts.  

You and others here continue to say there have been and are issues, but instead of wanting to actually fix it, you just want to flippantly solve it in a half assed way by throwing money at it. As a lifelong Longhorn fan, I know that that is rarely a cure to the issue. This takes everyone in the society realizing they are all part of the same community, and that community is sick. Sick because of traditions and laws that were made by those in your closed community. When powerful rich white men make laws (which is what has happened since America became America), those structures tend to lean towards benefiting those who make the laws. And when the community sees a black man kneeling in protest of injustices, did you say "I know there injustices in his community and I applaud his bravery in making sure our society addresses it"? No, you said stand up for the flag and play ball. That little thing over and over and over, throughout all facets of life is what needs to be addressed and it takes both the individual and the institutions to fix. But instead, you advocate pushing your kids into christian right-leaning schools, and by doing so, you are ensuring that these issues remain because all they see is what you see......which is an incomplete picture. 

[Neonmoon 38127]

Johnny Sack arguing against CRT

Johnny Sack in other thread 

Quote

The black community needs to start facing serious scrutiny from the media for the violence it disproportionately inflicts on society. This little boy’s death is no less significant than any of the violent felons the black community has martyred over the last few years and he deserves at least the same recognition

Same as it ever was