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25 runs is the most since that 30-3 Rangers-Orioles game.

 

So position players pitching has legitimately gotten out of hand this season, and I'll bet Manfred's next project is putting a mercy rule into MLB.

And he'll have more support for this from the clubs than he has for banning shifts.  

(FTR, he has zero support for banning shifts, because he hasn't even bothered to speak to the MLBPA about it.)

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disclaimer- yes, my team got screwed tonight (imo anyway), but for the r cord i've felt this way since long before tonight.

technology ruined the game tonight. Addison Russell hit an RBI triple in the 9th to make it a 1-run game with no outs. Except that upon review there was a 0.2 second period of time where he technically had no part of his body on the bag while the tag was still applied, and upon review he was called out. Now instead of being down one with a runner on third and no outs, the bases are empty with one out. That's bullshit.

1)He hit a triple

2)He beat the throw, period.

3)You could never ever ever have seen that he came off the bag with the naked eye

4)For more han 100 years that was was a straight up triple

 

we need to do something about this. it isn't as if his entire body slid over the bag and into fair territory, he slid in, beat the throw, and was called safe. using replay to get someone out on a technicality like this is not what replay was designed for. we need to come up with a way to rectify this. for me, once you beat the tag and slide in, you're safe.

https://es.pn/2M7NH1t

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3 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Or players could learn how to slide and maintain contact with the base. 

insert jlaw gif here. the guy was hauling ass at top speed when he slid into this little 15 x 15 bag that isn't designed for a fully grown professional athlete to stay on top of at such speeds. there's absolutely nothing that russell or anyone else in his situation could do here. have you even seen the play? you literally can't tell with the naked eye that he ever came off the bag.

if y'all think beau was passionate about the astros hypocrisy then keep arguing with me about this and get a first hand look at an argument getting cranked up to 11. there is only one correct side to this argument, and it damn sure isn't "learn how to slide hurr durr."

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Derka, I don't like that situation at all either, but...

1.  Replay on the whole is a great thing, and you can't write a rule that excuses something like that and only that.  

2.  Never make the 1st or 3rd out at third base.  

Edited by Beau Vine
(And I'm now OK with everyone on the Astros except Luhnow. And Osuna.)
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Actually that is indeed the correct side of the argument. Part of being safe is being able to stay on the base. That's pretty much the most important part of it in fact.

Russell could have easily stayed in contact with the bag if he had slid directly into the center of it. He instead chose to slide at the outside of the bag with one hand at full speed to avoid the tag. If you have to do that to avoid the tag then you are trading a certain amount of probability of being straight up tagged out for a certain amount of probability that you will overslide the bag. He made that choice and he was out because of it.

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6 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

 

2.  Never make the 1st or 3rd out at third base.  

this is exactly what i said when i read the headline "russell's aggression on the base paths costs Cubs in the 9th." then i saw the video. he beat the throw. he beat the tag. you *literally* cannot tell that any of his body was off the bag without multiple angles of slow mo replay. it's absurd.

and you don't have to change the replay rules, you need to change what constitutes safe/out. make the bag bigger, make the play end as soon as the slide beats the tag, whatever. just don't tell me that a guy who beats the throw and tag is actually out when that exact play has rightly been called safe for more than 100 years.

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5 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

 

and you don't have to change the replay rules, you need to change what constitutes safe/out. make the bag bigger, make the play end as soon as the slide beats the tag, whatever. 

You want to make it like 1st base, where you can overrun it as long as you don't try to advance to the next base?

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5 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

You want to make it like 1st base, where you can overrun it as long as you don't try to advance to the next base?

i said slide, not run. there's a difference in running over and beyond the bag and sliding in, and having your body naturally bounce off the bag for literally a fraction of a second, unseeable by the naked eye. he did not overslide or run past the bag, he slid in safe and then *supposedly* lost contact with the bag for a fraction of a second. that's not the same thing.

Edited by Goo Punch
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Oh come on, this is a bang-bang play (which he shouldn't have risked) and his right arm clearly came off the bag:

https://www.mlb.com/video/polanco-harrison-nab-russell/c-2332504283?tid=63817564

 

There are a lot more objectionable plays than this -- plays where the guy is on top of the base, but bounces above it while the tag is on.  

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What you are saying is that you think they blew this call.

Ok.

Calls are blown.

And I generally agree with you here. In this specific spot. On those angles in don’t think they should have overturned.

But you’re putting the whole thing on trial for one maybe blown call?

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10 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Oh come on, this is a bang-bang play (which he shouldn't have risked) and his right arm clearly came off the bag:

https://www.mlb.com/video/polanco-harrison-nab-russell/c-2332504283?tid=63817564

 

There are a lot more objectionable plays than this -- plays where the guy is on top of the base, but bounces above it while the tag is on.  

It was not a bang-bang play. He beat the throw by a mile. Second, I never argued that his right arm didn't come off the bag, I argued that none of the replays definitively showed that no part of his body was touching the bag while the tag was applied, which is a fact. This is not a case of someone oversliding a bag, this is case of a guy beating the throw and tag by a good margin and then being called out on a speculative, *not definitve* replay. It's bullshit.

Edited by Goo Punch
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4 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

It was not a bang-bang play. He beat the throw by a mile. Second, I never argued that his right didn't come off the bag, I argued that none of the replays definitively showed that no part of his body was touching the bag while the tag was applied, which is a fact.

Okie dokie!

1.  You're not seeing everything the replay guys see.


2.  Capture.jpg
He's not on the base here.  


3.  Even if they don't have a clear angle, they can synch up multiple camera angles to see that Freese has the tag on him here while he's off the base.

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3 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Okie dokie!

1.  You're not seeing everything the replay guys see.


2.  Capture.jpg
He's not on the base here.  


3.  Even if they don't have a clear angle, they can synch up multiple camera angles to see that Freese has the tag on him here while he's off the base.

"He's not on the base here."

You can't definitively say that! It looks to me like is left is on the base, and part of his abdomen could be as well.

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Roles reversed, would you have said anything if the Cubs won because of this assistance? 

I get that it goes against history, but today's game isn't yesterday's game. Why is it such a bad thing that the game's winner can be determined in a more objective way? 

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4 minutes ago, ERhine said:

So he came off the bag and you’re going to post forty-three times about it because replay called him out?

You show me a replay that definitively shows he was tagged while he was off the base and I'll stop arguing. I'll still think the use of replay here is goddamn stupid, but I won't argue that by the letter of the law he was out. Produce that footage and you got it.

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5 minutes ago, SurlyBDR said:

Roles reversed, would you have said anything if the Cubs won because of this assistance? 

I get that it goes against history, but today's game isn't yesterday's game. Why is it such a bad thing that the game's winner can be determined in a more objective way? 

I've hated this rule since well before tonight. again, this has been ruled safe for more than 100 years, and there is no definitive evidence that he was even out. And my record of speaking out against my own teams in these scenarios speaks for itself. Ive been hated on here more than anyone for going against my own teams in situations like this. I have no problem being objective.

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So do you agree when theres a fair/foul call down the outfield line that gets reviewed and overturns a call because of fractions of an inch determined by the same replay system?

I get not liking the replays because history, but we're simply not going to change it as fans. The game has evolved, whether we like it or not. 

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8 minutes ago, clapclapclap said:

Holographic bases.  You're safe as long as you're breaking the plane.

10"x6" pole sticking out of the ground that you have to hold on to as you slide past 

Edited by SurlyBDR
Just dont land on top of it
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1 hour ago, Beau Vine said:

25 runs is the most since that 30-3 Rangers-Orioles game.

 

So position players pitching has legitimately gotten out of hand this season, and I'll bet Manfred's next project is putting a mercy rule into MLB.

And he'll have more support for this from the clubs than he has for banning shifts.  

(FTR, he has zero support for banning shifts, because he hasn't even bothered to speak to the MLBPA about it.)

No shit, a mercy rule makes a hell of a lot more sense than his bullshit extra innings proposals.  

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1 hour ago, Huckleberry said:

Actually that is indeed the correct side of the argument. Part of being safe is being able to stay on the base. That's pretty much the most important part of it in fact.

Russell could have easily stayed in contact with the bag if he had slid directly into the center of it. He instead chose to slide at the outside of the bag with one hand at full speed to avoid the tag. If you have to do that to avoid the tag then you are trading a certain amount of probability of being straight up tagged out for a certain amount of probability that you will overslide the bag. He made that choice and he was out because of it.

This sums it up for me.  Some writers I really like take Derka's position but I just don't agree at all.  One of the most fundamental rules of the game is that you're safe when you're touching a base but you can be tagged out when you're not.  If you can't come into the base under control so that you are able to stay on then you didn't beat the play to begin with.

 

And for the record, I would completely remove replay if it were up to me.

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In a less important part of that play, I think Russell should be credited with a triple. He reached third safely but was then out on the basepaths after reaching it. Same as if he'd tried to go home and been tagged out halfway there.

One last thing to mention is the claim that it couldn't be seen with the naked eye. The fact that Freese immediately told his dugout to appeal disproves that. He knew Russell came off the bag and he was either certain or pretty sure he had the tag applied at the time.

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I think Russell most likely came off the bag (although the replays aren’t super conclusive). But as much as it pains me, I agree with Derka that it shouldn’t be an out. I would change the rule to say that once a player touches the base, he need only stay above the plane of the base in order to remain safe.

And yeah, even if out, that should be a triple, because he was safe before he was out.

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17 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Come on, huck, part of being "safe" includes maintaining your position on the base.  You basically said that in your first post.

So it's not the same thing as touching the base and then getting thrown out heading home.

If a guy overruns a base by a single step and is tagged trying to get back to it he's credited with that base, is he not?

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I kinda like Adam Jones:

Quote

Jones could have been part of the fire sale, too. But he decided not to waive his trade veto and instead will remain with the club for two months — at least until he becomes a free agent at season’s end. He made a personal decision to not uproot his family and isn’t apologizing for it.

“When players walked out years ago and walked the picket lines and stuff, they did that for reasons like this. I earned this, and it’s my decision. I don’t have to explain it to nobody. It’s my decision. Thank you,” Jones said. “Here’s the thing about society, they always think they know what’s best for the next person. If someone wants to pay all my bills, trust me they can tell me what to do. Until then, shut the hell up.”

 

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1 hour ago, Huckleberry said:

If a guy overruns a base by a single step and is tagged trying to get back to it he's credited with that base, is he not?

(c) When the batter attempts to make a two-base hit or a three-base
hit by sliding, he must hold the last base to which he advances.
If a batter-runner overslides and is tagged out before getting
back to the base safely, he shall be credited with only as many
bases as he attained safely. If a batter-runner overslides second
base and is tagged out, the official scorer shall credited him
with a one-base hit; if the batter-runner overslides third base and
is tagged out, the official scorer shall credit him with a two-base
hit.
Rule 9.06(c) Comment: If the batter-runner overruns second or
third base and is tagged out trying to return, the official scorer
shall credit the batter-runner with the last base he touched. If a
batter-runner runs past second base after reaching that base on
his feet, attempts to return and is tagged out, the official scorer
shall credit the batter with a two-base hit.

Edited by Beau Vine
Here's the rule.
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I did actually know that rule based on an argument a long time ago, I'm saying that rule seems strange to me. I can somewhat see the logic in that a slide basically declares I am only trying to reach this base and advance no further but I don't like rules that differentiate between methods unless there's an extremely persuasive reason for it. If a lazy guy runs to the bag and oversteps it but didn't really intend to advance he gets credit for that base.

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