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Israel-Hamas war thread


Brisketexan

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So the position of Brisket, Wildcat and others is that it is more likely than not that someone high up the chain of command, as a military decision/strategy, decided to intentionally pre-clear a path for a Jose Andres aid convoy with the goal of luring them in to then take them out on the basis that it would likely result in a reduction of future aid in furtherance of the goal of complete genocide of the Palestinian people.  And that with that any potential backlash from the West was either miscalculated or deemed an acceptable consequence.   

If that's where you guys are at, we'll just agree to disagree.

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I'll add this quote from a Senior US counterterrorism official per the WSJ article linked above sums up what I think the most likely explanation is.  I.e., Gross Negligence

“The team either ignored their own protocols or, over the course of the war, prewar protocols had been dropped nearly entirely,” said the former official, referring to the military’s rules of engagement that define how and when force can be used.

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7 minutes ago, Skipper said:

So the position of Brisket, Wildcat and others is that it is more likely than not that someone high up the chain of command, as a military decision/strategy, decided to intentionally pre-clear a path for a Jose Andres aid convoy with the goal of luring them in to then take them out on the basis that it would likely result in a reduction of future aid in furtherance of the goal of complete genocide of the Palestinian people.  And that with that any potential backlash from the West was either miscalculated or deemed an acceptable consequence.   

If that's where you guys are at, we'll just agree to disagree.

I don't think it's "luring" as you frame it. I believe that WCK worked with the IDF in mutually good faith, but it's not uncommon for splinter groups in a military to force the hand of their government and the international community through atrocity. It happened a WHOLE lot in the run up to WWII. 

I can completely see a hot headed boots on the ground commander that sees his mission as his part of a prophecy calling down wrath upon anyone he sees as his enemy. And people providing aid to your enemies tend to get treated like enemies. 

The brushfire war in Gaza is burning hotter and more out of control. Things like the WCK attack will only continue to happen with increasing regularity for as long as the IDF keeps pouring gas into the brushfire

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just for the record, with respect to surveillance AND command & control at street level, the top 2 on the planet are England and Israel

the US is #1 overall at the strategic global level for intel gathering, but for acquiring and processing the type of intel that was actioned in yesterday's strikes, Israel is a clear #1 over England who only matured this capability 3 years after the Good Friday agreement, i.e. as a result of 9/11, so they've never really had to use it domestically

the person who gave the order to fire, 3 times, was looking at an infrared image with millimeter detail on 5 or 6 screens, with angles from multiple directions

israel has better visuals at night when they can deploy sensory platforms at very low altitudes

so, i wonder at whose suggestion this operation was scheduled for the middle of the night?

 

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5 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I don't think it's "luring" as you frame it. I believe that WCK worked with the IDF in mutually good faith, but it's not uncommon for splinter groups in a military to force the hand of their government and the international community through atrocity. It happened a WHOLE lot in the run up to WWII. 

I can completely see a hot headed boots on the ground commander that sees his mission as his part of a prophecy calling down wrath upon anyone he sees as his enemy. And people providing aid to your enemies tend to get treated like enemies. 

The brushfire war in Gaza is burning hotter and more out of control. Things like the WCK attack will only continue to happen with increasing regularity for as long as the IDF keeps pouring gas into the brushfire

I could definitely buy a rogue military actor or faction doing this intentionally.  I don't know if I would say that is more likely than gross negligence but it also would not surprise me if that were determined to be the case.  

 

But that isn't what some are arguing that drew my reaction.  Brisket stated, declaratively, Israel is "purposefully pursuing a campaign of genocide, and the attack on WCK was knowing and intentional, in furtherance of that goal."

I read that as implying proper chain of command. 

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2 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

the person who gave the order to fire, 3 times, was looking at an infrared image with millimeter detail on 5 or 6 screens, with angles from multiple directions

the WCK logo on the roof confused them, obvious Hamas tagging.

image.png.82344c491280c1fcbc92a24f672ab378.png

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bibby was smiling too much when he gave his daily mea culpa yesterday

if the chain of command was "improper" he should have come off as pissed off

he is a great actor, he can carry water for whatever is needed, and yesterday he was apologizing with a smile on his face

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One thing brought up about Israel's command and control is how tight it was maintained. Rise and Kill First is a book about this and a good read.

So this order came from above. Don't think it was a rogue shooter unless the IDF's controls have collapsed.

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32 minutes ago, Skipper said:

So the position of Brisket, Wildcat and others is that it is more likely than not that someone high up the chain of command, as a military decision/strategy, decided to intentionally pre-clear a path for a Jose Andres aid convoy with the goal of luring them in to then take them out on the basis that it would likely result in a reduction of future aid in furtherance of the goal of complete genocide of the Palestinian people.  And that with that any potential backlash from the West was either miscalculated or deemed an acceptable consequence.   

If that's where you guys are at, we'll just agree to disagree.

i don't think it's where "anyone is at" but conversely occam's razor: this is trending towards the simplest explanation

this isn't the gulf war with infrared green-screen nightvision from 20 miles away

the level of technology that israel has makes "excuses" implausible explanations

the bibby batphone doesn't just "go down for 3 minutes"

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6 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

One thing brought up about Israel's command and control is how tight it was maintained. Rise and Kill First is a book about this and a good read.

So this order came from above. Don't think it was a rogue shooter unless the IDF's controls have collapsed.

haven't read it but don't need to - it's why i have other unpopular opinions about israel despite my belief this war was justified - until they crossed a line yesterday

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1 minute ago, Hagbard Celine said:

haven't read it but don't need to - it's why i have other unpopular opinions about israel despite my belief this war was justified - until they crossed a line yesterday

They crossed that line months ago. They just have been getting bolder.

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Just now, Hagbard Celine said:

haven't read it but don't need to - it's why i have other unpopular opinions about israel despite my belief this war was justified - until they crossed a line yesterday

They crossed the line for me a long time ago. I expected some hits, but thought would be their Special Forces and Mossad. Not 155 artillery. BTW, those don't work great on tunnels. We learned that in Afghanistan, Vietnam and Iraq. Hell we learned that in WW2 with strategic bombing, creating cities leveled and adding hiding and ambush places.

It is a good book. Long read, but worth it.

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Seems crazy to me to think that rules, competency and morals are to be followed in a war, especially now that we can kill people in a way where the operator is more detached than they if they were playing a video game.

I imagine that there is a small percentage of the heroes in Arlington Cemetery that were killed accidentally by fellow Americans. And in the same wars, innocent civilians are killed at a higher rate.

I'm very much a pacifist but also a realist when it comes to how war operates. What is occurring in Gaza has been occurring for centuries or thousands of years.

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Just now, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Seems crazy to me to think that rules, competency and morals are to be followed in a war, especially now that we can kill people in a way where the operator is more detached than they if they were playing a video game.

I imagine that there is a small percentage of the heroes in Arlington Cemetery that were killed accidentally by fellow Americans. And in the same wars, innocent civilians are killed at a higher rate.

I'm very much a pacifist but also a realist when it comes to how war operates. What is occurring in Gaza has been occurring for centuries or thousands of years.

Agree, but I still have hope we can get better as a race. I mean kill the leaders, and yes civilians are at risk, but this? Full blockade? What does that accomplish other than punishing the civilians? This is doubly true is Israel is to be believed that Hamas has all the food and medicine it needs hidden somewhere.

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We need to talk about the munitions, too.  Per Bellingcat and all the photos, there is lots of evidence pointing to an inert or low-yield missile. Which is what you use for precision strikes normally on high-value targets. That suggests a lot of coordination and planning for this. 
 
Sorry, Israel has to have a better explanation than “our bad.”  So far they haven’t got one.  If you fuck up and triple tap WCK and make sure they are all dead you need to say who the fuck you THOUGHT you were after. 
 
I don’t think we will get one.  This one fucking stinks and it sure as shit seems like they want Gazans going hungry and all the aid workers out so they have a free-fire zone. 

This.

Here’s the problem. Israel is saying “whoops it was a mistake.” The problem is…I don’t believe them. I believe that they are lying.

“It was an accident. I was cleaning my gun and it went off…three times.” I don’t believe stupid lies. And you shouldn’t either.
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2 hours ago, Skipper said:

That's a stretch.  I know you are prone to emotional posting lately

On 10/28/2023 at 1:49 PM, Skipper said:

If you are pro "cease fire" you are supporting Hamas.  Full stop.   

Hot damn I love keeping receipts

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i understand why the idf has to keep going, in to the last corner of the last cave, including areas they haven't been in yet

but like jules for brad, i had been trying REAL HARD to have tolerance for how they are going about it, and my tolerance broke yesterday

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1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

Hot damn I love keeping receipts

A post from 10/28?  Really? Wasn't that around the time of start of the Israeli invasion?  At some point Israel crossed a line but it certainly wasn't in October by my view.   But we're venturing out of current news territory bringing up old posts so I'll leave it at that.

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21 minutes ago, Skipper said:

A post from 10/28?  Really? Wasn't that around the time of start of the Israeli invasion?  At some point Israel crossed a line but it certainly wasn't in October by my view.   But we're venturing out of current news territory bringing up old posts so I'll leave it at that.

I'm just messing with you. Emotions were high from everyone in that month.

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56 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

i understand why the idf has to keep going, in to the last corner of the last cave, including areas they haven't been in yet

but like jules for brad, i had been trying REAL HARD to have tolerance for how they are going about it, and my tolerance broke yesterday

This.

Israel has a right to defend itself.

Israel had and has the right to go after Hamas as a military force to destroy it, and to take all reasonable measures to free the hostages.

In any military action of any consequence, there will be collateral damage and deaths.  The level of carelessness can vary, and culpability along with it, but even the best-conducted modern military operation will lead to some civilian casualties.  It is a price of war (and a really good reason to fucking avoid starting an armed conflict).

Nobody -- not Israel, or anyone else -- has the right to commit genocide.

The statements of multiple senior Israeli officials, including several directly connected to high-level military decision making, express plainly genocidal goals (drive all Gazans out of Gaza.  That is flat-out genocide).

The purposeful actions of the IDF have furthered not just the goals of "going after Hamas," but also the goals of "drive all Gazans from Gaza."  When you tie the plain statements made by Israeli leadership (Brisket rule: when people tell you what they are, and what they intend to do, FUCKING BELIEVE THEM) with the actions of the IDF, culminating in THREE strikes against WCK vehicles that were identifiable and indeed pre-cleared to travel....fuck that shit.  Israel gets no more benefit of the doubt.

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2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:


This.

Here’s the problem. Israel is saying “whoops it was a mistake.” The problem is…I don’t believe them. I believe that they are lying.

“It was an accident. I was cleaning my gun and it went off…three times.” I don’t believe stupid lies. And you shouldn’t either.

In this post, you state the following:

Quote

It is indisputable that Israel is purposefully targeting civilians and civilian resources/structures.  Numerous high-ranking Israeli officials have said so, plainly. 

You are, to be kind, experiencing hallucinations. Israel said no such thing.

If Israel is targeting civilians, I will advocate for the US to withdraw its support and for a war crimes tribunal to be established, similar to Nuremburg. As we did with Milosevic and his ilk, and we should do to Putin and his cronies and his whole fucking country, they should be tried and executed for war crimes.

The issue is, Israel doesn't target civilians. You stated they "plainly" confessed to the crime. No they didn't. The end. It's not worth discussing.

 It's no different than you stating that Israel has made a strategic decision to starve them out. But they are working with Egypt, the US, and many NGO to bring tens of thousands of tons of food into Gaza. Your argument make no sense. If they do that, I will condemn them. But they are not doing that.

There are literally teenagers fighting for their lives, I absolutely get that they shoot first and pick up the pieces later. No soldier is a philosopher king, possessed of perfect knowledge and able to execute the morally perfect tactical maneuver. It's not a movie or a video game.

I am going to donate $500 to WCK, they deserve it.

LOL you just repeated you hallucinatory claim. Do you have a link to their confession?

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1 minute ago, Harrison Stafford said:

Between Hamas and the IDF, the Palestinian people don’t have a prayer.

And maybe they never did.

The Palestinian/Israeli conflict was always headed for genocide, I guess.  Everyone loses, because your choices are 1) end up being the party genocided, or 2) end up being the party that becomes a global pariah because you committed genocide.

Enough people on each side wanted and insisted on a final battle of extermination of their enemies.  They got what they wanted.  It's fucking stupid and evil, but they got what they wanted.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And maybe they never did.

The Palestinian/Israeli conflict was always headed for genocide, I guess.  Everyone loses, because your choices are 1) end up being the party genocided, or 2) end up being the party that becomes a global pariah because you committed genocide.

Enough people on each side wanted and insisted on a final battle of extermination of their enemies.  They got what they wanted.  It's fucking stupid and evil, but they got what they wanted.

When your population doubles in 20 years, it's hard to understand a claim of genocide. 

As for you statement that all of Israel want them gone, of course. So do I. So should you. The only actual solution to the problem is to put physical distance between the two groups. Meaning, Israel need to be outside of Hamas missile range.  A desire for peace does not equal genocide.

Get back to me when Israel shuts down food shipments and you will have my 100% support.

Edited by Thetexashammer
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if vlad wasn't busy fucking his cousins this would be done and dusted and an UN occupation force would already be on the ground

as it stands we can't do deals right now so benny has a free hand that hamas didn't game out

everyone should donate a jackson to WCK - if there are any dependents left behind they should never want for need

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9 minutes ago, Harrison Stafford said:

Between Hamas and the IDF, the Palestinian people don’t have a prayer.

okay - you bring up my big beef - where the fuck is the rest of the arab world on this?

it's like they are more than happy to have palestine be israel's proxy punching bag so they don't have to get their hands dirty

if syria and the sauds wanted helsinki and a 2-state hamas would have never got to 2007

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4 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

In this post, you state the following:

You are, to be kind, experiencing hallucinations. Israel said no such thing.

If Israel is targeting civilians, I will advocate for the US to withdraw its support and for a war crimes tribunal to be established, similar to Nuremburg. As we did with Milosevic and his ilk, and we should do to Putin and his cronies and his whole fucking country, they should be tried and executed for war crimes.

The issue is, Israel doesn't target civilians. You stated they "plainly" confessed to the crime. No they didn't. The end. It's not worth discussing.

 It's no different than you stating that Israel has made a strategic decision to starve them out. But they are working with Egypt, the US, and many NGO to bring tens of thousands of tons of food into Gaza. Your argument make no sense. If they do that, I will condemn them. But they are not doing that.

There are literally teenagers fighting for their lives, I absolutely get that they shoot first and pick up the pieces later. No soldier is a philosopher king, possessed of perfect knowledge and able to execute the morally perfect tactical maneuver. It's not a movie or a video game.

I am going to donate $500 to WCK, they deserve it.

LOL you just repeated you hallucinatory claim. Do you have a link to their confession?

I gotta be real man, and I’ve supported Israel’s right to defend itself aggressively- they haven’t been working very fucking hard to let aid in.  It’s been pulling teeth to get them to do anything. 
 

The take from the administration is correct, if you break a place you own it and if they aren’t going to do relief work as you invaded then at a bare minimum you need to dedicate IDF forces to protect aid workers.  When we’ve gone in heavy it’s always been with a plan to secure civilian essentials.

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1 minute ago, Thetexashammer said:

Do you have a link to their confession?

Israeli finance minister:

Quote
The comments underscore fears in much of the Arab world that Israel wants to drive Palestinians out of land where they want to build a future state, repeating the mass dispossession of Palestinians when Israel was created in 1948.
"I welcome the initiative of the voluntary emigration of Gaza Arabs to countries around the world," Smotrich said in a statement. "This is the right humanitarian solution for the residents of Gaza and the entire region after 75 years of refugees, poverty and danger."
He said an area as small as the Gaza Strip without natural resources could not survive alone, and added: "The State of Israel will no longer be able to accept the existence of an independent entity in Gaza".

Official intelligence ministry proposal:

Quote

Israel acknowledged Monday that one of its ministries drafted a wartime proposal to transfer the Gaza Strip’s 2.3 million people to Egypt’s Sinai peninsula, drawing condemnation from the Palestinians and worsening tensions with Cairo.

Israeli troops on the ground in Gaza:

Quote

The Israeli soldiers stand rifles in hand, arm over shoulder, speaking to the camera. Behind them is the shell of a Gazan building.

“We are here adding light after the black sabbath that the people of Israel had,” one of the men says in the video, circulating on Telegram. “We are occupying, deporting, and settling. Occupying, deporting, and settling. Did you hear that Bibi? Occupying, deporting, and settling.”

National Security minister proposing his "solution" to the Gaza problem (side note: Jesus tapdancing Christ, the ironic word choice alone - I presume he means a "final solution" to the problem):

Quote

“We must promote a solution to encourage the emigration of the residents of Gaza,” far-right National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir said on January 1.

It is a plainly stated goal to remove Gazans from Gaza.  Driving an entire people out of their home is bullseye-genocide.

Enough.  Israel has abused the latitude that they had and deserved.  They have decided to become the monster.  Enough.

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3 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I gotta be real man, and I’ve supported Israel’s right to defend itself aggressively- they haven’t been working very fucking hard to let aid in.  It’s been pulling teeth to get them to do anything. 
 

The take from the administration is correct, if you break a place you own it and if they aren’t going to do relief work as you invaded then at a bare minimum you need to dedicate IDF forces to protect aid workers.  When we’ve gone in heavy it’s always been with a plan to secure civilian essentials.

I have almost zero situational awareness of what's happening on the ground. I welcome more information on all of that. To be fair, it's a war zone, it's a little tense.

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4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Israeli finance minister:

Official intelligence ministry proposal:

Israeli troops on the ground in Gaza:

National Security minister proposing his "solution" to the Gaza problem (side note: Jesus tapdancing Christ, the ironic word choice alone - I presume he means a "final solution" to the problem):

It is a plainly stated goal to remove Gazans from Gaza.  Driving an entire people out of their home is bullseye-genocide.

Enough.  Israel has abused the latitude that they had and deserved.  They have decided to become the monster.  Enough.

Again, the permanent solution is to remove the Palestinians to outside of missile range of the Israelis. We all want that, even you I hope.

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8 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

As for you statement that all of Israel want them gone, of course. So do I. So should you. The only actual solution to the problem is to put physical distance between the two groups. Meaning, Israel need to be outside of Hamas missile range.  A desire for peace does not equal genocide.

Actually, the solution you just proposed - driving the ENTIRE population out of Gaza - is literally textbook genocide.  Drive out Hamas?   No.  Drive out EVERYONE.  That's the stated Israeli goal.  Which is a confession of genocide.

Quote

Get back to me when Israel shuts down food shipments and you will have my 100% support.

They just.  Fucking.  Did.  They did it by blowing up three separate vehicles of the most recognized, most impeccable food distribution NGO on this planet.  Israel imposed the policy by killing WCK workers as a warning.  It fucking worked.  The ships full of food?  They all turned back.  That's EXACTLY how you shut down food shipments.  It's the guaranteed, time-honored way to shut down aid: kill the aid workers.

Yet you still support Israel's actions.

A country and people can be wronged, and can be justified in responding.....yet can ALSO respond in a way that is an independent wrong.  If I cheat you out of your delivery of widgets, you are wronged, and you are justified in taking action (sue me for breach of contract).  You are NOT justified in responding by slaughtering my entire family, including members who have nothing to do with my business, burning our house down, and claiming a desire to drive us out of Texas altogether.

Israel was wronged.  It could and should respond and defend itself.

It cannot commit genocide. 

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1 minute ago, Thetexashammer said:

Again, the permanent solution is to remove the Palestinians to outside of missile range of the Israelis. We all want that, even you I hope.

AKA, "Ethnic cleansing."  Cleanse Gaza of Palestinians.

Jesus Fucking Christ on a goddamned popsicle stick, credit to you for having the guts to openly advocate ethnic cleansing.  At least we can't claim that you were trying to hide your evil.

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3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Actually, the solution you just proposed - driving the ENTIRE population out of Gaza - is literally textbook genocide.  Drive out Hamas?   No.  Drive out EVERYONE.  That's the stated Israeli goal.  Which is a confession of genocide.

They just.  Fucking.  Did.  They did it by blowing up three separate vehicles of the most recognized, most impeccable food distribution NGO on this planet.  Israel imposed the policy by killing WCK workers as a warning.  It fucking worked.  The ships full of food?  They all turned back.  That's EXACTLY how you shut down food shipments.  It's the guaranteed, time-honored way to shut down aid: kill the aid workers.

Yet you still support Israel's actions.

A country and people can be wronged, and can be justified in responding.....yet can ALSO respond in a way that is an independent wrong.  If I cheat you out of your delivery of widgets, you are wronged, and you are justified in taking action (sue me for breach of contract).  You are NOT justified in responding by slaughtering my entire family, including members who have nothing to do with my business, burning our house down, and claiming a desire to drive us out of Texas altogether.

Israel was wronged.  It could and should respond and defend itself.

It cannot commit genocide. 

image.png.5604275b86e11915373939486d6e18df.png

I can live with a "genocide" that doesn't involve killing anyone. In fact, it involves a whole lot less killing and war. Peace, you even might call it. But you hate that LOL.

The palestinians are human beings. They need to move to a place where they can be citizens and get on with their lives. Being dominated by Hamas, living in Gaza, it offers them nothing.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

image.png.5604275b86e11915373939486d6e18df.png

I can live with a "genocide" that doesn't involve killing anyone. In fact, it involves a whole lot less killing and war. Peace, you even might call it. But you hate that LOL.

The palestinians are human beings. They need to move to a place where they can be citizens and get on with their lives. Being dominated by Hamas, living in Gaza, it offers them nothing.

Ethnic.

Cleansing.

And to top it all off, ethnic cleansing accomplished by destroying most every place they could live, and starving them out.

Quote

The official United Nations definition of ethnic cleansing is "rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group."

......

Ethnic cleansing in the broad sense—the forcible deportation of a population—is defined as a crime against humanity under the statutes of both the International Criminal Court (ICC) and the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY).

If Hamas was doing the same to Israelis, you'd be shrieking from the highest mountaintops about crimes against humanity.  

And for your stupid-ass solution....."being dominated by Hamas." If that is the case for Gazans, and is their destiny....how would that be any different if they were shoved into the Sinai (oh, and maybe ask the sovereign state of Egypt whether it's cool with letting Israel functionally seize Egyptian land to create a pseudo-Palestinian state).  For fuck's sake, man....this is fucking sick shit.

Edited by Brisketexan
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Posted (edited)

Israel’s problem isn’t solved by pushing Palestinians away. They are Iran’s proxies. Hamas has missiles because Iran supplies them (and to Hezbollah). 
 
Since we’re talking about Senitics here, can I ask about semantics? If driving a people away is “genocide”, can we then say that Germany (and most of Europe, and the Arab world of the mid 20th century) were successful in their genocide? Since they drove almost all of the Jews away?

Edited by statsman
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3 minutes ago, statsman said:

can we then say that Germany (and most of Europe) were successful in their genocide? Since they drove almost all of the Jews away?

Ummmmm....yeah.  They were pretty damned successful in their ethnic cleansing: they killed 6 million jews, and made it so inhospitable that even after the war, remaining jews wanted to GTFO.  That's why....and follow me here....campaigns intended to drive out a people, using all manner of techniques but definitely including brutal violence, are fucking criminal.

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35 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

I have almost zero situational awareness of what's happening on the ground. I welcome more information on all of that. To be fair, it's a war zone, it's a little tense.

Well, at the very basic level, we have video and photographic evidence along with verbal confirmation that IDF targeted three WCK vehicles and killed seven aid workers within the last 36 hours. Subsequently, vessels containing many thousands of tons of food relief turned around and returned to their origin due to Israel’s inability to safely allow the flow of relief into Gaza. Let’s just start there.

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47 minutes ago, statsman said:

Israel’s problem isn’t solved by pushing Palestinians away. They are Iran’s proxies. Hamas has missiles because Iran supplies them (and to Hezbollah). 
 
Since we’re talking about Senitics here, can I ask about semantics? If driving a people away is “genocide”, can we then say that Germany (and most of Europe, and the Arab world of the mid 20th century) were successful in their genocide? Since they drove almost all of the Jews away?

Absolutely. Who would deny this besides groypers on the internet?

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54 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Ummmmm....yeah.  They were pretty damned successful in their ethnic cleansing: they killed 6 million jews, and made it so inhospitable that even after the war, remaining jews wanted to GTFO.  That's why....and follow me here....campaigns intended to drive out a people, using all manner of techniques but definitely including brutal violence, are fucking criminal.

Ok. I’ve just seen it, all my life, described as “attempted genocide” of the Jews. 

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17 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

okay - you bring up my big beef - where the fuck is the rest of the arab world on this?

it's like they are more than happy to have palestine be israel's proxy punching bag so they don't have to get their hands dirty

if syria and the sauds wanted helsinki and a 2-state hamas would have never got to 2007

I could give a long-winded answer involving power, money, social/religious views, etc. in the Arab world, but will make it brief.  The powers that be are indifferent to the Palestinian cause.  In fact, some Middle East regimes have treated their people almost as badly as Israel has treated the Palestinians. Many have spoken for Palestinian rights only because that has given them a semblance of legitimacy in the eyes of their people, but few are ready or capable of walking their talk.  Those with the means to influence events do not mean what they say, and a few who mean what they say, lack the means to follow through.
 

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31 minutes ago, Harrison Stafford said:

I could give a long-winded answer involving power, money, social/religious views, etc. in the Arab world, but will make it brief.  The powers that be are indifferent to the Palestinian cause.  In fact, some Middle East regimes have treated their people almost as badly as Israel has treated the Palestinians. Many have spoken for Palestinian rights only because that has given them a semblance of legitimacy in the eyes of their people, but few are ready or capable of walking their talk.  Those with the means to influence events do not mean what they say, and a few who mean what they say, lack the means to follow through.
 

Fuck it, I will elaborate. There are a few things. 1- It is easier for a Haitian to get US citizenship than a Palestinian in any Gulf State. They will always remember Black September and how the PLO supported Saddam in Kuwait. 2- Though educated, they are not given the professional jobs they deserve. 3- They are seen as a tool for internal controls. If the people in the Gulf are pissed at Israel then they are not pissed internally. 4- They keep pressure from the international world, allowing for the Arab states to position themselves. 5- They are seen as siding with Iran. 6- They allow the leadership to operate, but give very little care about the average person. 7- They don't have $$$$ to go to professional soccer games, except for the leaders, and there are not a lot of them.

Happy to add to this, just don't want to get into CR areas.

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