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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Jatrain said:

God is perfect?
 

The God who commanded genocide?  Who allowed the rape of virgins?  Who explicitly prescribed slavery?  Who killed children over a bet?

 

That God?

Yes. 

God (and even Jesus despite the hippie-fiction of him in the West) is violent. And perfect.

There is a time to kill, as the old proverb goes.

Edited by Vegas64
Posted
8 hours ago, gsoda3 said:

There was a point in every Christian's life where they hadn't yet submitted their life to Jesus. 

Nah.  For most, there isn’t some God given epiphany where Christians (or any other religion) are touched and come to their faith.  Most Christians are Christian because of where they are born.  Most Muslims are Muslim because of where they are born.  Most Hindu are Hindu because of where they are born.  Rinse and repeat. 

The rate of conversion is consistent across religions.  That would be true if one was God favored over others. 
 

 

Posted
6 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

Yes. 

God (and even Jesus despite the hippie-fiction of him in the West) is violent. And perfect.

There is a time to kill, as the old proverb goes.

And we know God is perfect, how?  Because, in collection of stories written by a bunch of goat herders a couple thousand of years ago, they claim him to be?  If a person did the things attributed to God you’d call him a monster, rightly so.

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Posted
20 minutes ago, Jatrain said:

And we know God is perfect, how?  Because, in collection of stories written by a bunch of goat herders a couple thousand of years ago, they claim him to be?  If a person did the things attributed to God you’d call him a monster, rightly so.

It’s what I believe because I’ve experienced it. If you haven’t, that’s okay too.

Your post reminded me of a famous quote

I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.

Posted
On 4/24/2025 at 8:46 PM, gsoda3 said:

 

Other than repentance after acknowledging the work of Christ on the cross and His resurrection there is nothing you can do to be a Christian.  Your works will reflect whether your faith is genuine.  The Pharisees tried to work their faith out solely through works and Jesus condemned them to hell. 

Considering Season 3 GIF by Portlandia

Posted
On 4/24/2025 at 3:31 PM, Brisketexan said:

Bozo said this once (and I attribute it to him, because it's damned good): when asked if he's a Christian, the right answer is "no, but I'm trying to be."

To call on a point of reference that most of us will recognize, I think often of the last bit of Saving Private Ryan, as the old Ryan, remembering the sacrifice and loss that were necessary to get him to his old age, asks his family "tell me I've lived a good life."

The way I see it, there are two types of people in this world: 1) those who ask that sort of question at the end of their life (and are never satisfied with the answer, because they know there's always something more/better that they could have done) and 2) those who really don't even give a fuck about that question.  I have told my wife more than once that one of the things that keeps me up at night is the knowledge that I've fallen short: I haven't done enough to help, I haven't been as kind as I could be, I haven't done as much good as I could have.  The answer of "you've done plenty" is unsatisfying, as you're acutely aware that you could have done more . . . and if you could have done more, then that means you haven't done enough.  Intellectually, I know that's not true.  Spiritually....well, spiritually speaking, I'm not very intellectual.  I'm a simple man.  If I gave someone my shoes, my question after the fact is "wait, why the fuck didn't I give him my socks, too?"

And by the way, I am NOT posting this to make a point that I'm some good person - quite the opposite.  I fall short more epically and profoundly than I could ever be comfortable with.  I'm not shit.  And even though I say "but I'm trying to be" with respect to being a Christian . . . am I really?  Am I really trying?  Or am I another selfish lazy piece of shit?  Signs point to the POS option.

Maya Angelou told of an encounter she had with one of her bright young students who proudly proclaimed to her that she was Christian. Angelou responded rather quizzically, already???

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Posted
4 hours ago, Jatrain said:

Nah.  For most, there isn’t some God given epiphany where Christians (or any other religion) are touched and come to their faith.  Most Christians are Christian because of where they are born.  Most Muslims are Muslim because of where they are born.  Most Hindu are Hindu because of where they are born.  Rinse and repeat. 

The rate of conversion is consistent across religions.  That would be true if one was God favored over others. 
 

 

 

The very first "Christians" were born Jewish and preached Jesus to the peril of their physical lives.

The next generation of Christians, one degree removed from Christ Himself, were born worshippers of Zeus, Jupiter, an Unknown God, and multitudes of tribal gods and goddesses.  This generation converted in the face of overwhelming persecution and continued in the faith, somehow winning converts. 

In the past 50 years, China is the country with the largest number of Christian converts - the overwhelming majority of them coming from a Buddhist family.  

Since 2000, Iran is in the top three countries (if not number one) of new Christian converts despite it being illegal to convert Muslims or to own a Bible at the pain of death.  

 

 

Posted

If someone is trying to get out of a spiritual rut, I would first ask them why do they want to get out of it? Maybe that is where you are meant to be.

perhaps the problem is the idea that one must be spiritual or religious. And instead of worrying about or trying to fix it, continue as-is. If someone is meant to be on a spiritual path, they will find themselves there without forcing it.

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Posted

The dark night of the soul is not an inherently Christian thing, it’s really just being human. Christians may question those times because their faith should allow them to rise above or questioning their faith seems unthinkable but it happens. For others it’s just the trials of life. I just turned 50. 40-42 were great. 43-44 were injury filled and 45-47 were the pandemic. 48-49 were filled with post pandemic malaise and an actual long covid nightmare. Dark night of the soul? Try dark as fuck decade of the soul. There were maybe 3 good years in that decade. Some may look to their faith and God for blame or for meaning or for answers others may look elsewhere or ascribe no meaning at all but the concept of being tried to the brink by life is as old as any religion there ever was.

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Posted
8 minutes ago, troph said:

The dark night of the soul is not an inherently Christian thing, it’s really just being human. Christians may question those times because their faith should allow them to rise above or questioning their faith seems unthinkable but it happens. For others it’s just the trials of life. I just turned 50. 40-42 were great. 43-44 were injury filled and 45-47 were the pandemic. 48-49 were filled with post pandemic malaise and an actual long covid nightmare. Dark night of the soul? Try dark as fuck decade of the soul. There were maybe 3 good years in that decade. Some may look to their faith and God for blame or for meaning or for answers others may look elsewhere or ascribe no meaning at all but the concept of being tried to the brink by life is as old as any religion there ever was.

I hear ya. It’s true, however that many Christian interpret their wilderness wanderings in much the same way John of the Cross describes the experience, Mother Teresa’s inner darkness and a “painful” longing for God, which ran contrary to her public witness, lasted for 50 years. Interestingly, she did not describe it as a crisis of faith, but as a period of heightened faith and a divine gift that allowed her to empathize the spiritually and materially poor.

Posted

I don’t doubt the importance of such difficult times in a person of faith’s life. I guess it’s a function of where do you look in those times or what do they mean to you. The last decade crescendo’d on me to a massive existential crisis with all the questions and relentless lack of answers. I guess it happens to the best of us. I do not discount the meaning or experience of the Christian I just mean to say it’s not exclusively a religious or faith thing. 

Posted
2 hours ago, Clintonaldo said:

Yeah but staying diligent and to quote from another thread I am working the steps on it. 

Try some Daoism and Buddhism. Siddhartha Gautama tackled the whole existential crisis thing way better and different than the Jesus nonsense. More applicable to your life as it deals directly with the suffering we all face daily. Lao Tzu attacked the issue in a very practical way. 

Maybe you just need a change of scenery as it were. Learning about other beliefs helped me deal with the negatives of indoctrination easier. We're all humans dealing with the same shit existence. 

Posted (edited)

Two things that this thread makes me think of:

More acutely @ClintonaldoHappiness in This Life: A Passionate Meditation on Earthly Existence

Quote

For Pope Francis, the appreciation of our everyday lives is a spiritual undertaking. Joy is a divine attribute, and creating joy around us an essential part of faith. Every homily and speech in this book delivers, in warm, engaging language accessible to believers and nonbelievers alike, a key lesson, instructing readers on finding love and happiness in a chaotic world.

Along the way, Pope Francis discusses the sanctity of women’s rights, talks about how the love of sports can bring out our best qualities, and explains why fighting discrimination is the essence of loving thy neighbor. He shares personal stories and anecdotes from his life, provides comforting messages of hope, and discusses the ways flawed families can make you a better person. The core ideas of Francis’s papacy—mercy, support for marginalized people, and diplomacy—shine through.

Strongly recommended. And for those who reject Christianity coming from from a protestant fundamentalist background, this offers a very practical and easy to read understanding of how most non-fundamentalists see Christianity and the role of Christians in ther world. 

More generally - on religion:

If you have time to read this thread this is also worth an hour

 

Edited by Bozo_Casanova
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Posted (edited)

An interesting sideline for those of a spiritual bent, Christian or otherwise, is to pick up a copy of Alcoholics Anonymous, or Narcotics Anonymous.

The 12 steps are a practical guide to living an intentional, spiritual life.  The AA big book is kind of interesting because it was written between the Depression and WWII, so reflects that era in a way that's amusing.  The NA book is substantially more modern.

A minor challenge to see how you could extract alcohol or drugs and make it a program for general self-improvement.

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol everything — that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

 

Edited by TwiceHorn
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Posted

I'm rereading this thread and it's really good. I also realize I made the same recommendation about Pope Francis and Alan Watts, but that was before JD Vance killed the pope and after he killed Watts (maybe) so it hits different. 
 

Posted

I agree with Troph; ruts are a normal parts of the human condition and of life. It stands to reason that will happen in your spiritual life as well.

I think the main thing to remember is the long game. I had it described to me once as "Faith and obedience is a long walk in the same direction." Sometimes you are making a brisk pace in a bee-line in that direction and other times you are stumbling to the left and right barely making any forward progress. 

All that matters is, like Paul said, that at the end of you life you've run the race and didn't quit.

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Two things that this thread makes me think of:

More acutely @ClintonaldoHappiness in This Life: A Passionate Meditation on Earthly Existence

Strongly recommended. And for those who reject Christianity coming from from a protestant fundamentalist background, this offers a very practical and easy to read understanding of how most non-fundamentalists see Christianity and the role of Christians in ther world. 

More generally - on religion:

If you have time to read this thread this is also worth an hour

 

I will take a look at these. I’ve vehemently trashed evangelicalism, it was bad then when I was one and it’s atrocious now, crusades, slavery, KKK time periods may be the only periods of time when a branch of Christianity was worse. It’s absolutely that awful right now. 

I have not trashed the more traditional, liturgical and more progressive christian philosophies. I’ve taken a more deist approach. Additionally, what I think doesn’t matter, what is the truth will remain the truth and I know I am not immortal and that is fine. I have a deep reverence and respect for the Earth and believe I am a part of it not above it. I believe the earth is a reflection of the divine and if I am not respectful and in reverence to the physical world I am denigrating the truth. If I face my creator free from my earthly body one day so be it, but I do not require it to acknowledge my subservient position on the Earth. How I treat people is part and parcel with the respect the physical world demands. It’s less about a belief in a personal relationship and transactional sanctification and more about deep reverence and acknowledgment that I am temporal and subordinate to laws (be kind, be respectful) the violation of which are an anathema to “god”. While I have not forsaken any past transactional moments I may have had, I have steered clear of continuing a path of personal faith possibly in reaction to my past, my unique circumstances and my family of origin. I must believe in perfect mercy and justice if I am to believe in any form of a perfect god in which case I am prepared to meet this mysterious, ethereal and gender non-conforming deity (read your bible folks) with reverence, awe and respect.
 

so when I have my dark nights, I do not have a personal faith to lean on, I only have the understanding that we all go through these times, making my obligation to respect the Earth and to be kind to all of its inhabitants that much more resolute. 
 

that’s pretty much all I got. 

Edited by troph
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Posted

I rarely post, but this thread has really caught my interest with the sincerity but diverse opinions or beliefs. Troph made an interesting statement…your soul really is just being human.  In discussions like this one thing rarely mentioned is the soul. Really the belief in soul as defining who you really are separates physical man from spiritual man. Richard Rohr (Catholic Franciscan Priest) discusses  this better. “When we move to the level of soul, the externals are not as defining; roles, titles, costumes, age, and race are no longer the most important questions. Soul recognizes soul, and a mentor presents their own soul unapologetically: “I am what I am, warts and all. I’ve got some faults, but I know I’ve got some gifts too.”  
You don’t have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, troph said:

I will take a look at these. I’ve vehemently trashed evangelicalism, it was bad then when I was one and it’s atrocious now

One of the reasons I recommend that book to former evangelicals in particular is that I think it gives them a more authentic understanding of Christ’s gospel for what it actually is, which seems to help disentangle “Christianity” from the trauma they experienced. 

But I always recommend some Alan Watts along side it, because it’s important for you to understand that atheism or other forms of explicit  rejection are also a form of evangelism, as Watts jokes in the video above that the atheist proclaims “there is no God and I am his prophet.”  

So it’s not a question of “going back” to God or Christianity or whatever, but seeing and accepting the reality that there is no meaningful distinction between without and within, and thus realizing that alienation is a fiction.

Tat tvam asi. Thou art that. 
It’s true across time and people and teachings. The true religion is the religion of no religion, where things are one. That’s the promise, or heaven, or enlightenment, or nirvana, or whatever you want to call it. Whether we look to Revelation where it says that Heaven and Earth give way to a new Jerusalem, or in Buddhism where the there is no longer any temple or any gong, because the temple has become the whole world and the gong is all around. 

Edited by Bozo_Casanova
Posted
On 4/20/2025 at 7:11 PM, Clintonaldo said:

I put this here because it feels right. 
 

I go to church. I give back to the needy with my time and money yet I am not feeling it in church. We did Easter service yesterday because today would be packed but the whole time it felt like a Rolling Stones concert and it all felt so forced. I’ve never been one to raise hands and pray over people but I am one to actually help people. I just feel weird sometimes when almost everyone but me is singing and praising but I am just standing there. I wish I could get into it more but I just don’t feel ( that ).  I do give my church credit in that they do not get into politics so it isn’t that. I can say I’ve never felt closer to Christ than with a charity I do that helps special needs people run triathlons and half marathons. 

I just really wondered during the laser show yesterday am I the oddball or am I real ? Is this your 40’s??

The Lord is incredibly generous and wise. He has given His children what they most need, and in great abundance. He has given us an entire world full of people to care about and for, emotionally, spiritually and materially. 

Posted
5 minutes ago, statsman said:

The Lord is incredibly generous and wise. He has given His children what they most need, and in great abundance. He has given us an entire world full of people to care about and for, emotionally, spiritually and materially. 

You are exactly right. I have my health , my son is healthy, and my wife only hates me half the time.  I have everything I’ve ever wanted but yearning for more. 
 

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Posted
30 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

One of the reasons I recommend that book to former evangelicals in particular is that I think it gives them a more authentic understanding of Christ’s gospel for what it actually is, which seems to help disentangle “Christianity” from the trauma they experienced. 

But I always recommend some Alan Watts along side it, because it’s important for you to understand that atheism or other forms of explicit  rejection are also a form of evangelism, as Watts jokes in the video above that the atheist proclaims “there is no God and I am his prophet.”  

So it’s not a question of “going back” to God or Christianity or whatever, but seeing and accepting the reality that there is no meaningful distinction between without and within, and thus realizing that alienation is a fiction.

Tat tvam asi. Thou art that. 
It’s true across time and people and teachings. The true religion is the religion of no religion, where things are one. That’s the promise, or heaven, or enlightenment, or nirvana, or whatever you want to call it. Whether we look to Revelation where it says that Heaven and Earth give way to a new Jerusalem, or in Buddhism where the there is no longer any temple or any gong, because the temple has become the whole world and the gong is all around. 

I'm not an athiest and not an evangelical about anything except possibly what I believe is an obligation to revere and respect the Earth and all of its inhabitants. it's in the moments where I do that successfully where I find the most peace and harmony.

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Posted
43 minutes ago, troph said:

I'm not an athiest and not an evangelical about anything except possibly what I believe is an obligation to revere and respect the Earth and all of its inhabitants. it's in the moments where I do that successfully where I find the most peace and harmony.

Absolutely. But you were an evangelical at one point, and I’m assuming it left you with things that you are still processing. 

Posted
1 hour ago, YChang said:

Ever think about learning/exploring other faiths for fun?

it's funny bc I went to a catholic hs and one of our theology classes early on was focused on learning about other religions. it was a jesuit school, so it makes sense from a yearning for learning perspective, but it did surprise teenage me that we were studying other religions and comparing them to ours. might have actually been the starting point of my doubt in my faith, now that I think about it

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Posted
1 hour ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Absolutely. But you were an evangelical at one point, and I’m assuming it left you with things that you are still processing. 

I've come a long way. I'm 100% ok with masturbation now.

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Posted
1 hour ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Absolutely. But you were an evangelical at one point, and I’m assuming it left you with things that you are still processing. 

Internalized Islamophobia is the first thing that comes to mind.

Posted
On 4/24/2025 at 3:04 PM, Brisketexan said:

Needed to be in bold and large type.

JC gave very simple laws.  But as an attorney, reading what "Christianity" has done to that reminds me of what happens to good laws when well-funded special interest lobbies get ahold of them.  The law ends up reading like this:

A) It's against the law to poison people.

B) Exceptions to the prohibition in section A) are as follows:

  1) does not apply to poisoners named "Steve"

  2) does not apply if you really don't like the person you're poisoning

.....

  947) does not apply to Bob Smith, of 123 Pecan Street, because he stroked me a big fat campaign check

 

The rule is "love."  The exceptions to, and/or counter-textual definitions of what it means to "love," have swallowed the rule to the point that it's damned near the LAST thing "Christians" will do.

 

The word of Brisket. Thanks be to God!

Posted
3 hours ago, ruitxn said:

I rarely post, but this thread has really caught my interest with the sincerity but diverse opinions or beliefs. Troph made an interesting statement…your soul really is just being human.  In discussions like this one thing rarely mentioned is the soul. Really the belief in soul as defining who you really are separates physical man from spiritual man. Richard Rohr (Catholic Franciscan Priest) discusses  this better. “When we move to the level of soul, the externals are not as defining; roles, titles, costumes, age, and race are no longer the most important questions. Soul recognizes soul, and a mentor presents their own soul unapologetically: “I am what I am, warts and all. I’ve got some faults, but I know I’ve got some gifts too.”  
You don’t have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body.

 

Father Rohr is awesome. His take on religions, including his own is refreshing.

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Posted

my wife and I pick shows to watch based on mood (funny, serious, etc) and we have been working our way through Supernatural. we're later-comers as neither of us watched the show when it was on, but I was aware of it and its following. now I get it (especially if you're attracted to the two main characters). that show's take on god(s) and religion and the lore and theology surrounding religion, but namely Christianity, is really interesting to me. I'm a visual learner and absorb a lot of information through visual imagery and it's kinda wild how seeing physical manifestations of things you only imagined previously actually closes a lot of mental loops. it's a good show for a lot of reasons, but I think it's portrayal of supernatural forces is quite excellent, even if a bit hokey at times.

Posted
59 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Internalized Islamophobia is the first thing that comes to mind.

That’s no doubt real but my money is on sexual confusion and internalized guilt related to abuse of various kinds. 

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Posted
On 4/25/2025 at 7:15 PM, Jatrain said:

God is perfect?
 

The God who commanded genocide?  Who allowed the rape of virgins?  Who explicitly prescribed slavery?  Who killed children over a bet?

 

That God?

The topic regarding the God of the O.T. vs the N.T. comes up a lot and it's rare that anyone discusses the historical evolution of God.

One reason that the early O.T. God seems so violent is probably because Yahweh originated as a Semitic storm god of war prior to the advent of Judaism. Similar to Thor and Zues. 

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