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SmokeyBear1861

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For further perspective, this is the West Bank over Central Texas.

WestBankoverAustin.thumb.JPG.6dd48273867e7985a0f8e2c63de799dd.JPG

 

The Palestinian Authority is only in control of the beige areas (3+ million population), which is, of course, always subject to IDF operations. The blue zones are reserved for either the Israeli military or Israeli settlers. Again, just posting these for perspective.

image.thumb.png.01df70ce1490629547d3914b7d8bc070.png

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33 minutes ago, bolverk said:

But I also ask you to apply that same level of empathy to the 2+ million Palestinian civilians living in the Gaza Strip, who I'm sure right now feel like they're facing quite an existential crisis knowing that there's nowhere for them to retreat to. 

I would like to.  To me, Hamas is as much an enemy of the Palestinian people as Hamas is an enemy of the Israelis, while Iran is using the Palestinian people (through Hamas) to try and keep Israel off balance. But as you or somebody else said, the extremists in Israel and among the Palestinians are preventing the Israelis and Palestinians from coming together against the common enemy. 

In some ways, the Palestinians suffer from the same issues that North Korean civilians do - they’ve got decades of their leadership completely fucking them over so that they could get rich and push their personal agendas, whether it was Arafat or later Abbas and Hamas, and over multiple generations that mindset becomes very damaging.

 Israel cannot allow Hamas to exist going forward, and Hamas is going to do everything they can to blend in with the Palestinian civilian population, so this doesn’t end well or quickly, and it won’t end unless the Palestinians help end it.

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11 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

I would like to.  To me, Hamas is as much an enemy of the Palestinian people as Hamas is an enemy of the Israelis, while Iran is using the Palestinian people (through Hamas) to try and keep Israel off balance. But as you or somebody else said, the extremists in Israel and among the Palestinians are preventing the Israelis and Palestinians from coming together against the common enemy. 

In some ways, the Palestinians suffer from the same issues that North Korean civilians do - they’ve got decades of their leadership completely fucking them over so that they could get rich and push their personal agendas, whether it was Arafat or later Abbas and Hamas, and over multiple generations that mindset becomes very damaging.

 Israel cannot allow Hamas to exist going forward, and Hamas is going to do everything they can to blend in with the Palestinian civilian population, so this doesn’t end well or quickly, and it won’t end unless the Palestinians help end it.

Yeah I don't think there's any disagreement here. Everyone has to change. The extremists govern both sides.

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You're getting tiresome if you're addressing what I wrote. In fact, you can't break out of the mindset that I decry. 
I described a disposition where one wants to believe that a fight is between good guys and bad guys. You inferring that I mean to say there are no bad actors on the anti-Israel side is absurd. I've made it clear on this page that the acts of Hamas were unspeakably horrific. If Israel caught those guys and skinned them alive, I wouldn't raise an eyebrow.
I'll make my position even clearer: I don't know what the solution is in this conflict. It's complicated and inherent issues such as described by Brisket above may indeed make it impossible to solve through negotiation. I don't know. 
I don't want the US to have any hand in the slaughter going on in GAZA. Even speaking in terms of being "friends" with Israel or any other nation is a silly notion cooked up for the morons watching at home. We have been allies. Our obligations are lined out by agreements and treaties. If those pieces of paper and that relationship no longer serve the interests of the US, then they must be altered.
Our name is tarnished by supporting the corrupt and bloodthirsty Israeli government's slaughter of innocent Palestinians. We should only be offering humanitarian aid. We should never have rolled a carrier up off the coast and stood in that way with Israel.
[mention=593]Brisketexan[/mention] I appreciate the tone and intelligence of your post about genocide. I think I've described my position for the most part, so maybe we come to foundational point of our disagreement. 
I will only add that in your description of the two nations, consider the the relative capabilities of carrying out genocide. Israel is an actual nation state with a relatively huge military capablility. Cutting that capability lose to do whatever it may is akin to the US firing nukes after 9/11. Bye, Afghanistan. We can use tactical nukes instead of Hellfire missiles fired from drones. 
I wouldn't support that level of retaliation. I would be shocked if you would support such a thing. That's what I see going on in Gaza.

The fact that Hamas has so few actual card-carrying members (25,000) in such a large population (2 million Palestinians in Gaza) speaks volumes about their lack of popularity and more about Iran’s reach and how the Palestinians felt about Israel in 2007/2008   Of course, there are plenty of Palestinians that love the idea of Hamas, but don’t want the baggage associated with it - we saw them show themselves on October 7th.
The Palestinians are going to have to decide how much pain they can tolerate in allowing Hamas to remain in power - whether folks agree or disagree with Israel and their actions after Oct. 7th, Hamas is exactly who they have always been, and it was inevitable that they on their own, or with Iran’s prodding, were going to do something big if given the chance.

It seems we have reasonable consensus that the 1) Israel has a right (even an obligation) to respond to Hamas and Oct 7 with force, but not 2) to wage indiscriminate war against the Palestinians in Gaza. The challenge, as always, is what path 1) looks like without it crossing over into path 2). I think most of us agree that Israel’s path thus far is well into the path 2) realm.
It would be quite helpful if Israel devoted significant energy to the message (and consistent action) of “we are at war with Hamas, NOT with the Palestinian people.” But they really can’t say that, and not just because their actions aren’t consistent with it….its also because in the mind of their government and a significant chunk of their population, Israel IS at war against all Palestinians. Thus, my observation on how once you reach a certain percentage of genocidal fucksticks, you become a genocidal fuckstick country.
Nothing that has happened since Oct 7 makes future acts of genocide less likely. They obviously make them more likely. At this point, even if Israel does succeed in eliminating the organization and leadership known as Hamas, within 5-10 years, they will be facing “Hamas 2, genocidal boogaloo.”
There’s no hope in the region. None. Zero. It is a land of death and blood, and will be until the heat death of the universe.
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13 hours ago, bolverk said:

For further perspective, this is the West Bank over Central Texas.

WestBankoverAustin.thumb.JPG.6dd48273867e7985a0f8e2c63de799dd.JPG

 

The Palestinian Authority is only in control of the beige areas (3+ million population), which is, of course, always subject to IDF operations. The blue zones are reserved for either the Israeli military or Israeli settlers. Again, just posting these for perspective.

image.thumb.png.01df70ce1490629547d3914b7d8bc070.png

 

How many checkpoints would one have to go through to get from San Marcos to Georgetown?

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How many checkpoints would one have to go through to get from San Marcos to Georgetown?

Oh, if you think it’s so easy to run a gauntlet that starts with drunk bobcat sorority girls, has to navigate through a passel of other Tx State students driving up 35 to get debauched downtown, through I-35 downtown traffic, then the clusterfuck that is the upper/lower deck split, ending in encounters with racist Wilco law enforcement, HAVE AT IT, TOUGH GUY.
You’d never make it past the sorority girls.
Nor should you.
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17 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


Oh, if you think it’s so easy to run a gauntlet that starts with drunk bobcat sorority girls, has to navigate through a passel of other Tx State students driving up 35 to get debauched downtown, through I-35 downtown traffic, then the clusterfuck that is the upper/lower deck split, ending in encounters with racist Wilco law enforcement, HAVE AT IT, TOUGH GUY.
You’d never make it past the sorority girls.
Nor should you.

Well that wasn't exactly the type of ritualized and systematic dehumanization I was thinking of, but point made. 

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8 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

It seems we have reasonable consensus that the 1) Israel has a right (even an obligation) to respond to Hamas and Oct 7 with force, but not 2) to wage indiscriminate war against the Palestinians in Gaza. The challenge, as always, is what path 1) looks like without it crossing over into path 2). I think most of us agree that Israel’s path thus far is well into the path 2) realm.

8 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

It would be quite helpful if Israel devoted significant energy to the message (and consistent action) of “we are at war with Hamas, NOT with the Palestinian people.” But they really can’t say that, and not just because their actions aren’t consistent with it….its also because in the mind of their government and a significant chunk of their population, Israel IS at war against all Palestinians. Thus, my observation on how once you reach a certain percentage of genocidal fucksticks, you become a genocidal fuckstick country.

Agreed with everything you’ve said, but I’d toss in that even if Israel came up with a perfect message about only being at war with Hamas and not the Palestinians, does it matter since Hamas does everything they can to blend back in with the Palestinians after they attack/fight?  They stockpile weapons and ammo in schools and hospitals and not big warehouses marked “Hamas”.  Their fighters can quickly shed their gear and blend right in and look like a Palestinian male.

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Hamas fired off 20 or so rockets from the Gaza Strip into Israeli areas, included Tel Aviv.  Many intercepted, no deaths or injuries.

Meanwhile

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-december-31-2023/

Quote

Israel plans to permanently replace all Palestinian laborers with foreign workers, in a major, ambitious initiative aimed at ridding the country of a perceived security threat, the Kan public broadcaster reports.

Thousands of construction and agriculture workers from the West Bank have been barred from entering Israel for work since Hamas’s mass invasion and onslaught of October 7. Hamas reportedly gathered some of its intelligence for the attack from Gazans who had permits to work in Israel.

To prevent a potential repeat in the West Bank, Kan says the government does not intend to allow the Palestinian workers back after the ongoing war.

The reported plan by the finance, interior and labor ministries would see Israel bring in 25,500 workers from Sri Lanka, 20,000 from China, 17,000 from India, 13,000 from Thailand and 6,000 from Moldova. In some cases, this will require signing new deals with countries involved, and diplomatic work is being done to advance these deals, the report says.

Additionally, the government intends to incentivize Israelis to work in construction and agriculture, as well promoting technologies that could cut the number of employees needed in these fields.

 

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Is Israel’s endgame in this coming into focus?

(Israeli Finance Minister) Smotrich then suggested that the removal of around 90 percent of Gaza's residents would help achieve his goal. "If there are 100,000 or 200,000 Arabs in Gaza and not two million, the whole discourse about the day after will be different," he said…..

Smotrich's comments are the latest in a growing list of troubling remarks by Israeli lawmakers to seemingly support expelling Gazans en masse out of the Strip in order to ensure Israel's security after the war.

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16 hours ago, Jatrain said:

Is Israel’s endgame in this coming into focus?

(Israeli Finance Minister) Smotrich then suggested that the removal of around 90 percent of Gaza's residents would help achieve his goal. "If there are 100,000 or 200,000 Arabs in Gaza and not two million, the whole discourse about the day after will be different," he said…..

Smotrich's comments are the latest in a growing list of troubling remarks by Israeli lawmakers to seemingly support expelling Gazans en masse out of the Strip in order to ensure Israel's security after the war.

Towards the end of S.C Gwynne’s mesmerizing "Empire of the Summer Moon," Quanah Parker explains to a friend named Miller how “the white man had pushed the Indian off the land.” Quanah, a Comanche warrior who had surrendered to the U.S. government in 1875, directs Miller to sit on a cottonwood log. "Quanah sat down close to him and said 'Move over.' Miller moved. Parker moved with him, and again sat down close to him. ‘Move over,’ he repeated. This continued until Miller had fallen off the log. 'Like that,' said Quanah."

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The Israeli Supreme Court turned down the recent effort to weaken the judicial system, which was the subject of all the protests prior to the war. This is a victory for Israeli democracy and a rejection of Israel's far-right.

Good analysis about the decision and how this plays into a lot of the culture war stuff, along with the actual hot war, going on over there:

Spoiler

The Twin Fronts in the Battle Over Israel’s Identity
Monday’s court ruling joined the war in Gaza in a widening crisis over what kind of state Israel will be.

The decision by the Israeli Supreme Court to reject legislative control over the judiciary ends for now the languishing effort by the far-right government of Benjamin Netanyahu to diminish the courts, which had already sparked nine months of protests that only ended when Hamas attacked Israel on Oct. 7.

The protests had deeply divided Israel, but the subsequent war united it, with even pilots and reservists who had vowed to ignore military exercises immediately showing up to fight before they were called.

If the court’s decision on Monday ripped off this wartime poultice, displaying anew the cultural war at the heart of Israeli politics, Mr. Netanyahu and his government responded by appealing again to wartime unity to try to downplay their loss. It was another version of Mr. Netanyahu’s argument against just about every critic of his performance and his policies — that these are all subjects to be discussed “after the war.”

And the ruling of the court, however important, is expected to have little or no impact on the conduct of the war itself.

“I don’t think the ruling will change anything,” said Amit Segal, a political columnist for the Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth who reported a leak of the ruling and is considered close to Mr. Netanyahu. Even before the war, he said, “Netanyahu did not have enough artillery, so to speak, to overwhelm the opponents.” So it helps him that this ruling has arrived during war, Mr. Segal said, because “he can justify a lack of reaction, and after the war he will have more pressing matters,” like his own political survival.

But the court and the war are connected in a way, because they are both crucial to Israel’s future and future identity. Israel regards the war as existential — the best way to restore its reputation in the region as ineradicable and as a beacon of security for Jews worldwide. The court decision goes to the heart of the debate over whether Israel will remain a thriving democracy, which is vital to its special relationship with the West.

Seen narrowly, the court has ruled that the judiciary must be able to provide a check on the ability of a simple majority in Israel’s Parliament, the Knesset, to change the country’s fundamental laws and to alter the democratic character of the state. It left open the possibility of fundamental legal changes by a special vote with a larger majority.

Mr. Netanyahu and his allies have argued that the courts have too much power over legislation by elected lawmakers, are too liberal and are chosen undemocratically.

The court ruling was seen by critics of Mr. Netanyahu, whose own trial on corruption charges is ongoing, as having saved the nature of a balanced democracy in a country with no constitution and no upper house. Some, like the former attorney general and former Supreme Court judge Menachem Mazuz, called it “the most important ruling since the foundation of the state.”

Until now, Mr. Mazuz said in a telephone interview, “the Knesset had the feeling that they could do whatever they wanted, determine that there are two suns during the day and four at night.” But the court had ruled “that there are limitations on the Knesset’s authority, that it is impossible to harm the democratic or Jewish character of the state, that there are limitations.” That, he said, could allow a different and improved agreement down the road “between the legal and political systems.”

But the ruling also “plays into existing issues of cultural war in Israel,” said Bernard Avishai, an Israeli-American analyst in Jerusalem. “Increasingly there is a divide between people who think the war is winnable and — like Netanyahu — that Israel’s sole objective is to get stronger and more intimidating, and those who think that the war is not really winnable in those terms, that we need some kind of diplomatic vista, that we can’t continue to alienate the rest of the world, the region and the United States, where we get our weapons,” he said.

The court ruling “has made more vivid this growing tension between those who want a plausible diplomatic solution and those who want to go back to the status quo before the war, who are the same people who wanted to defang the court,” Mr. Avishai said.

Mr. Netanyahu and his allies, he added, are pushing for a “Jewish state ruling over the whole land of Israel,” including annexing large parts of the West Bank and even, as some ministers suggest, resettling Gaza, while “the court was seen as trying to liberalize the country, which was a challenge to the status quo and the annexation and ‘Land of Israel’ supporters.”

For Dahlia Scheindlin, an Israeli analyst and pollster, “there is a direct link between the outcome of this war and the nature of Israel, what kind of state it will be and whether it can continue to claim to be democratic.”

The war, she said, “has been a great accelerator for the most far-reaching designs of a far-right government, including the annexation, possible expulsion and complete, formal Jewish sovereignty over all of the land and the people within it.”

Mr. Netanyahu is expected to use the ruling to continue to try to shore up his thin majority in Parliament, built on his coalition with religious nationalists and the far right. Already, Mr. Netanyahu has refused to condemn some of the harshest statements by his allies about annexing the West Bank and resettling Gaza. He has presented himself as the vital bulwark against the criticisms of the rest of the world, including the United States, and the whole idea, favored by President Biden, of a future Gaza ruled by a “revitalized” Palestinian Authority.

In one recent example, Mr. Netanyahu has supported his far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, who rejected Mr. Biden’s demand that Israel transfer to the Palestinian Authority the part of the Palestinian tax funds it collects on behalf of the authority, intended for its employees in Gaza, intimating that he would resign from the government.

“Bibi is still their champion,” Mr. Avishai said.

Mr. Netanyahu has also made clear, as recently as a news conference on Saturday, that he does not intend to resign, even after the war and even as his Likud party sinks in the opinion polls. A Channel 13 poll said that elections now would secure Likud only 16 seats and, along with its current coalition parties, only 45 seats in the 120-seat Knesset, compared to 38 seats for Mr. Netanyahu’s rival Benny Gantz and 71 seats for opposition parties.

Ms. Scheindlin, the pollster, said Likud’s coordinated call for wartime unity after the court ruling was politically savvy, because even the party’s supporters did not care as much about the judicial overhaul as about other issues, including the outcome of the war. Mr. Segal, however, said that the ruling might help shore up Likud’s support, because many of the party’s voters would be angry about it.

Still, the call for unity and the charge that the court ruling hurts the war effort are “pretty cynical,” Ms. Scheindlin said, “since it was the judicial reform bill that actually ripped apart the country.”

Mr. Netanyahu said that “the court’s decision contradicts the people’s desire for unity, particularly at a time of war,” while Itamar Ben Gvir, the national security minister, said: “At a time when our soldiers are giving their lives for the people of Israel in Gaza every day, the judges of the high court decided to weaken their spirit.”

The subtext, Ms. Scheindlin said, is that “nothing we don’t like should happen until the war is over, and the war will never be over,” at least not for a very long time.

 

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It's amazing how anything international just fucking splinters people's brains so badly. The Houthis are religious fanatic shitheads who are doing the one fucking thing the entire goddamn United States Navy exists to prevent and these attacks are the most clearly legal deployment of US force since the initial invasion of Afghanistan, but countless people on the left (including some in fucking Congress) think it's illegal. 

Fucking American exceptionalism is the real mind virus. The leftists who fall for it just invert it's standard mode, so they think America is the only bad actor in the world. 

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24 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

It's amazing how anything international just fucking splinters people's brains so badly. The Houthis are religious fanatic shitheads who are doing the one fucking thing the entire goddamn United States Navy exists to prevent and these attacks are the most clearly legal deployment of US force since the initial invasion of Afghanistan, but countless people on the left (including some in fucking Congress) think it's illegal. 

Fucking American exceptionalism is the real mind virus. The leftists who fall for it just invert it's standard mode, so they think America is the only bad actor in the world. 

200.gif.2feb9ea335d4b78d4ab9d72b58bf7a61.gif

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1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

It's amazing how anything international just fucking splinters people's brains so badly. The Houthis are religious fanatic shitheads who are doing the one fucking thing the entire goddamn United States Navy exists to prevent and these attacks are the most clearly legal deployment of US force since the initial invasion of Afghanistan, but countless people on the left (including some in fucking Congress) think it's illegal. 

Fucking American exceptionalism is the real mind virus. The leftists who fall for it just invert it's standard mode, so they think America is the only bad actor in the world. 

We somehow got to a place where we have a bipartisan Houthi caucus; the GOP members clearly don’t understand the law or constitution and just want to shit on everything Biden does and from the left it’s basically just about reflexively supporting anyone who fights their own country. Which, incidentally, is why they can find common ground with GOP nutbars like Greene and Gaetz who also don’t really linr America. Really bizarre to see. 

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I have a question for the posters in this thread. I noticed that NBC News every single day runs an extended segment on the evening news covering an Israeli tragedy human interest story related to the war. There is a story every single day. And it’s always extended segment. And it never is focused on Palestinians.  And just to light the match, the President of NBC News is Jewish. Is this something to be concerned about, or is it appropriate/fair? I realize there are hostages that never should be forgotten, so maybe that’s justification for it. 

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42 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

I have a question for the posters in this thread. I noticed that NBC News every single day runs an extended segment on the evening news covering an Israeli tragedy human interest story related to the war. There is a story every single day. And it’s always extended segment. And it never is focused on Palestinians.  And just to light the match, the President of NBC News is Jewish. Is this something to be concerned about, or is it appropriate/fair? I realize there are hostages that never should be forgotten, so maybe that’s justification for it. 

I don’t think that you can connect the fact that the pres of NBC is Jewish with the running of these segments.  
 

But I think that imagining what the outcry would be if they were highlighting innocent Palestinians victims (say any of the thousands of children that have been killed) tells you all that you need to know.  

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10 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

The Houthis are religious fanatic shitheads who are doing the one fucking thing the entire goddamn United States Navy exists to prevent and these attacks are the most clearly legal deployment of US force since the initial invasion of Afghanistan, but countless people on the left (including some in fucking Congress) think it's illegal. 

This is some shitty legal reasoning, at least based on the relevant legal frameworks. I am not sure it is worthing debating, cause in reality what you are arguing is not a legal basis, and we both know that the legal basis is irrelevant. I don't think that the WPR covers this action, but the reality is that it doesn't matter. Congress has effectively abdicated their responsibility wrt basically any and all military actions, so it is what it is, and it is not going to change. More importantly in terms of the longer run implications are the optics and American credibility. Not sure that they play in our favor, but let's see what happens and how history judges it. Our track record in the region is great. 

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3 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

I have a question for the posters in this thread. I noticed that NBC News every single day runs an extended segment on the evening news covering an Israeli tragedy human interest story related to the war. There is a story every single day. And it’s always extended segment. And it never is focused on Palestinians.  And just to light the match, the President of NBC News is Jewish. Is this something to be concerned about, or is it appropriate/fair? I realize there are hostages that never should be forgotten, so maybe that’s justification for it. 

Dalrymple?

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3 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

I have a question for the posters in this thread. I noticed that NBC News every single day runs an extended segment on the evening news covering an Israeli tragedy human interest story related to the war. There is a story every single day. And it’s always extended segment. And it never is focused on Palestinians.  And just to light the match, the President of NBC News is Jewish. Is this something to be concerned about, or is it appropriate/fair? I realize there are hostages that never should be forgotten, so maybe that’s justification for it. 

It’s not fair because it’s only one side, but interviewing people affected by an incident is standard OP. Is it something to be concerned about? Ha, I wish that cracked that top 20 issues with today’s “news” providers 

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The optics of the U.S. Navy not keeping the SLOC open is far worse for our credibility among allies, partners, and potential adversaries than the hit we take among people who hate us already and will never change that stance.  Maritime security is worth more than Middle East public opinion. 

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3 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Yeah I agree, we should continue actively destroying the middle east. They hate us cuz they ain't us! America! Fuck yeah!

Are you against protecting international shipping from terrorists? 

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It's amazing how anything international just fucking splinters people's brains so badly. The Houthis are religious fanatic shitheads who are doing the one fucking thing the entire goddamn United States Navy exists to prevent and these attacks are the most clearly legal deployment of US force since the initial invasion of Afghanistan, but countless people on the left (including some in fucking Congress) think it's illegal. 
Fucking American exceptionalism is the real mind virus. The leftists who fall for it just invert it's standard mode, so they think America is the only bad actor in the world. 

I mean…this. The navy is literally doing the exact thing that navies were created for. Against a legit, unarguably bad actor (trying to blow up civilian shipping is bad, and wrong, mmkay?).
Your last para is perfect. As stupid as blanket “American Exceptionalism” is, it’s in a passionate, kinky relationship with “Everything America Does is Evil-ism” - they share a perverse bond of stupidity.
What’s happening with the Houthis has nothing to do with Gaza, save and except as an excuse/pretext. All that it really is, is another example of Iran again sticking its dick in the global mashed potatoes to foment chaos. That’s it.
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