Jump to content
Coach pop a bitch

Texas O-line talk

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, Machinator said:

Can't read this because it's paywalled (and I refuse to pay for a 247 subscription), but Dan Neil seems to be bullish on the O-line, for what it's worth.

https://247sports.com/college/texas/Article/Dan-Neil-Impressions-of-O-line-under-Herb-Hand-in-spring-game-117597786

I'm interested in his thoughts, but not going to give that site my monies. I find his insight pretty spot on. I remember his Connor Williams is a stud write up after the Notre Dame game (blowout loss). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Vahe has never been above average. He blocks extremely well when he pulls, he's generally a pretty good run blocker, but he's horrible in pass pro.  He gets killed when asked to block a DL 1 on 1, and he also has never reliably picked up stunt blitzes. That clip that Ian showed on the stunt was a horribly executed attempt by WVU where Vahe didn't even have to move. 
It's nice that Vahe can do certain things in the run game very well, but his deficiencies in iso run blocking and pass blocking in general kill drives.  The good doesn't make up for the bad with him.  If he's your worst OL, then your OL's probably not terrible, but if he's an unquestioned starter and possibly your second best OL, then your OL probably sucks.
Also, you keep saying he's one of our best OL this decade, but I"m not sure you mean OL, as you've failed to mention Connor Williams once...
so... you think I think Vahe is on the level of CW55?

Pick the top 8 (arbitrary, pick a number) OL since 2010.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Machinator said:

Can't read this because it's paywalled (and I refuse to pay for a 247 subscription), but Dan Neil seems to be bullish on the O-line, for what it's worth.

https://247sports.com/college/texas/Article/Dan-Neil-Impressions-of-O-line-under-Herb-Hand-in-spring-game-117597786

You didn't hear it from me 

Spoiler

 

Texas All-American OL DAN NEIL, a two-time Super Bowl winner with the Denver Broncos (1997-98), breaks down film of Longhorns' games and provides analysis exclusively to Horns247. Here's his breakdown of the UT offensive line in the Orange-White spring game.

I’m sure everyone knows the Spring Game Drill. The coaches want to try to match up the first offense against the first defense.

You may have noticed the offensive line wore black jerseys. This is because they played for both the Orange and White team and new offensive line coach Herb Hand wanted to see many different combinations of blockers to see how they operated as a unit.

Hand also only had 10 linemen that played and he was forced to move guys around. This will pay off down the road.

Guys need to learn what every position is doing. In the NFL everyone plays multiple spots on the O-line because there is usually just 10 O-linemen on a team - including practice squad.

The first-team O-line from right to left was RT Derek Kerstetter, RG Elijah Rodriguez, C Zach Shackelford, LG Patrick Vahe and LT Denzel Okafor. No real surprises there and odds are this will be the starting lineup opening week.

What will make this interesting is when Rice grad transfer LT Calvin Anderson, JUCO lineman Mikey Grandy and Patrick Hudson get healthy.

The battle at left tackle is probably the biggest competition going into next season. Okafor is a talent that has really struggled with consistency.

Remember, he couldn't win the starting left tackle position when Connor Williams got hurt last year. Texas decided to play Kerstetter as a true freshman instead of the veteran Okafor at right tackle.

He has to show this staff something to hold off Anderson and Grandy. I felt Okafor looked a lot better. He has learned to not lean and punch pass rushers. He has very long arms and if he does not lean, it is impossible for a D-lineman to grab his jersey and jerk him. This is why the NFL puts such a premium on arm length. Okafaor has really improved and looked good at left tackle.

What could be interesting as well is if coaches decide Anderson, Hudson and Grandy are three of the five best linemen and how he gets all on the field.

This is why I thought Kerstetter taking snaps at center with the second group was interesting. This does two things: 1) gets some depth at center and gives Hand an option if he feels Kerstetter is one of his five best and Shackelford is not.

I don’t think this will be the case. I feel Shackelford is a good center. I thought Shackelford looked good at center. He has been a good player, but he's often been hurt. He has good hips and moves well - both are a must for a center.

I think the two guard positions are the two most likely not to change this fall. But Hudson could make that interesting as well. Let me tell you Vahe shouldn't be a locked-in starter at left guard. He needs to figure out how to move his feet and play aggressive, because there are guys who want his position. You can't be nice on the field and play offensive line. He might be the most talented lineman out there, but he needs to play aggressive.

Rodriguez is as solid as they come. He is a good player and smart guy who doesn't make mistakes. You always need reliability on the offensive line. He is also a guy who has proven he can play any position on the line. He started at left tackle in the bowl game. His natural position is guard, and he'll be solid there this fall.

The second unit in the game was right to left - RT J.P. Urquidez, RG Tope Imade, C Derek Kerstetter, LG Elijah Rodriguez and LT Sam Cosmi. After that, Hand pretty much rotated everybody everywhere. He is certainly searching for the five best, and he is not sure he has found it yet.

I have been hearing some positive things about Cosmi, and I wanted to see how he did in the spring game. He is going to be a good player. Has good feet and good strength. He needs to work on his punch and hand placement. Not sure if he is a tackle or guard, but I think he will contribute somewhere at some point. The more I watch, the more I like this guy and believe he will make a run at starting in the fall.

It was great to see TE Andrew Beck back on the field. This guy can block with the best of them at tight end. He and Cade Brewer should make this a solid position for Texas.

Glad to see receiver Devin Duvernay getting into the mix. I think this guy can be electric. I would love to see him be a part of this offense. Imagine Lil'Jordan Humphrey and Collin Johnson outside and Duvernay in the slot!

Who knows, maybe Humphrey at running back?

Everybody wants to evaluate the QB position. I would say this is the least of my worries. Texas has the luxury of two guys who can play and I think they can win with either guy. Both looked good and I was just glad they didn't run the QB much Saturday night. I don’t want to see a QB as the leading rusher next year.

Hand's wrinkles on the blocking scheme:

Leave the tight end in to help block in max protection

Guys seem to have a better idea of where the blitz is coming. Rodriguez’s guy looped outside the tackle and no one came from the outside to replace him. First thing you do is turn inside because someone is coming. Rodriguez did this perfectly on the first drive.

Better job double-teaming the defensive tackles in zone run blocking. I think they are finally figuring out how to zone block!

During turn pass protection, all five guys up front worked together and seemed to understand how to have five block four as one unit. There shouldn't be any single matchups when five block four. I have been waiting forever to see this, and I can’t tell you how happy I am to finally see it. This is a really big deal!

I think Hand wants to be both a gap and zone run blocking scheme. I’m all for it as long as they improve at zone blocking.

The O-line’s hands are better. I saw Okafor chop a one-arm bull - and that is taught. Better awareness on what to do when pass blocking.

I thought the line was a much-improved unit from last year. I feel like these guys are going to be a good unit. The two guys I think are going to start for sure on the O-line this fall are Rodriguez and Kerstetter. Vahe should be, but needs to play like he has something to prove. Shackelford will probably be a starter unless Hand's experiment with Kerstetter at center works out.

I will say I would be very surprised if Shackelford is not the center. Okafor must win that left tackle job. Obviously, Anderson is a guy they really like and he'll be here in June to start competing with Okafor. I still think Cosmi can push anyone along the line. Throw in the two unknowns - Hudson and Grandy - and you can see why I think three of the five starting spots will be competitive

What’s nice is the team finally has some backups. From what I saw Saturday night, I think there were six guys out there who could start this fall and three guys we did not see play who will compete in the fall

Hand is the right guy for the job and was a great hire by coach Tom Herman. You can see a big difference in technique. Guys working together and understanding blitz pickup. This is all taught, and I am excited by what I saw.

It is hard to evaluate play calling in the spring game. Everything is scripted and each team is just running situational plays. Not really game planning rather just calling base plays. We all know this is an area that needs to improve from last year.

This team lost close games to USC, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State and Tech last year. That’s how close they were to winning a Big 12 title. What I saw Saturday night was a much better team.

Remember - Oklahoma, Oklahoma State and USC all lost great QBs. Texas has a chance next year if they figure out how to win some close games.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Vahe has never been above average. He blocks extremely well when he pulls, he's generally a pretty good run blocker, but he's horrible in pass pro.  He gets killed when asked to block a DL 1 on 1, and he also has never reliably picked up stunt blitzes. That clip that Ian showed on the stunt was a horribly executed attempt by WVU where Vahe didn't even have to move. 
It's nice that Vahe can do certain things in the run game very well, but his deficiencies in iso run blocking and pass blocking in general kill drives.  The good doesn't make up for the bad with him.  If he's your worst OL, then your OL's probably not terrible, but if he's an unquestioned starter and possibly your second best OL, then your OL probably sucks.
Also, you keep saying he's one of our best OL this decade, but I"m not sure you mean OL, as you've failed to mention Connor Williams once...
btw, the reason he's tied for 2nd is because he's not 1st... guess who that would be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Machinator said:

Can't read this because it's paywalled (and I refuse to pay for a 247 subscription), but Dan Neil seems to be bullish on the O-line, for what it's worth.

https://247sports.com/college/texas/Article/Dan-Neil-Impressions-of-O-line-under-Herb-Hand-in-spring-game-117597786

He was bullish on last year’s line when CW returned. Oops.  

Dan has forgotten more about OL play today than I have ever bothered to learn. But he twists with the wind with regards to his UT football articles and is loathe to lay blame at the staff’s feet. 

His opinions of last year’s efforts changed radically at about three different points during the season. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

He was bullish on last year’s line when CW returned. Oops.  

Dan has forgotten more about OL play today than I have ever bothered to learn. But he twists with the wind with regards to his UT football articles and is loathe to lay blame at the staff’s feet. 

His opinions of last year’s efforts changed radically at about three different points during the season. 

Bobby, quit worrying so much about being right and explain this to me please:

"During turn pass protection, all five guys up front worked together and seemed to understand how to have five block four as one unit. There shouldn't be any single matchups when five block four. I have been waiting forever to see this, and I can’t tell you how happy I am to finally see it. This is a really big deal!"

Edited by Ricky Butler
spelling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Ricky Butler said:

Bobby, quit worrying so much about being right and explain this to me please:

"During turn pass protection, all five guys up front worked together and seemed to understand how to have five block four as one unit. There shouldn't be any single matchups when five block four. I have been waiting forever to see this, and I can’t tell you how happy I am to finally see it. This is a really big deal!"

Would you like me to go find his article after the WVU victory detailing how all was well, the coaches weren’t idiots and the oceans were healed?

Dan sees technique points that are well above my paygrade. He should. Doesn’t change the fact that his hit rate for predicting the future performance of our OL is about the same as a lay poster. 

And I apologize if I didn’t catch the sarcasm font your might have been using. 

Edited by Bobby_Batronic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Ricky Butler said:

Bobby, quit worrying so much about being right and explain this to me please:

"During turn pass protection, all five guys up front worked together and seemed to understand how to have five block four as one unit. There shouldn't be any single matchups when five block four. I have been waiting forever to see this, and I can’t tell you how happy I am to finally see it. This is a really big deal!"

ok, meatball. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Would you like me to go find his article after the WVU victory detailing how all was well, the coaches weren’t idiots and the oceans were healed?

Dan sees technique points that are well above my paygrade. He should. Doesn’t change the fact that his hit rate for predicting the future performance of our OL is about the same as a lay poster. 

And I apologize if I didn’t catch the sarcasm font your might have been using. 

I was ribbing. But seriously, I don't know what the quoted passage means and why he was so excited about it. That part was a real question.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, futureman said:

ok, meatball. 

I don't know how to post gifs, so I'm never going to be able to reply to these references, but I appreciate them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Ricky Butler said:

I was ribbing. But seriously, I don't know what the quoted passage means and why he was so excited about it. That part was a real question.

I suspected that. But it’s the end of a long day and I’m even slower than normal on the uptake  

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Ricky Butler said:

I was ribbing. But seriously, I don't know what the quoted passage means and why he was so excited about it. That part was a real question.

I assumed that he meant that the 5 OL were blocking 4 pass rushers as a unit and providing help rather than it being four 1v1 matchups with Vahe blocking air or three 1v1 and a 2v1.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/23/2018 at 1:40 PM, UT Lawnghorn said:

Vahe has never been above average. He blocks extremely well when he pulls, he's generally a pretty good run blocker, but he's horrible in pass pro.  He gets killed when asked to block a DL 1 on 1, and he also has never reliably picked up stunt blitzes. That clip that Ian showed on the stunt was a horribly executed attempt by WVU where Vahe didn't even have to move. 

It's nice that Vahe can do certain things in the run game very well, but his deficiencies in iso run blocking and pass blocking in general kill drives.  The good doesn't make up for the bad with him.  If he's your worst OL, then your OL's probably not terrible, but if he's an unquestioned starter and possibly your second best OL, then your OL probably sucks.

Here's an example from the Spring game of what I was talking about with Vahe in regards to stunts and delayed blitzes:

oQkjPK.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, UT Lawnghorn said:

Here's an example from the Spring game of what I was talking about with Vahe in regards to stunts and delayed blitzes:

oQkjPK.gif

Both Tackles look solid in that clip.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, UT Lawnghorn said:

Here's an example from the Spring game of what I was talking about with Vahe in regards to stunts and delayed blitzes:

oQkjPK.gif

And to emphasize your great point, its the difference on Shane having to rush the throw or have all day as everyone else is completely picked up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cosmi actually played pretty well. He got beta on a speed rush by McCulloch but was otherwise pretty solid and he’s definitely strong. Ideally, we wouldn’t have to start him for another year but I like him better than Okafor as a backup tackle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, UT Lawnghorn said:

Cosmi actually played pretty well. He got beta on a speed rush by McCulloch but was otherwise pretty solid and he’s definitely strong. Ideally, we wouldn’t have to start him for another year but I like him better than Okafor as a backup tackle.

giphy.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cosmi seems like he's on track to start in 2019, which is the typical developmental timeline for offensive linemen who aren't 5* studs or unicorns like Connor Williams.

Our O-line depth chart won't be fully healthy again until we have a legitimate two-deep at blindside tackle and center.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

And to emphasize your great point, its the difference on Shane having to rush the throw or have all day as everyone else is completely picked up.

Was the rb suppose to chip the lb? That would have helped.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Bevo said:

Was the rb suppose to chip the lb? That would have helped.

Usually not on a delayed blitz where the RB is running a route. He usually only chips if someone is there immediately but it may have led to a bit of confusion on Vahe’s part. Regardless, Vahe has to be more aware of the gap he vacated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, UT Lawnghorn said:

Usually not on a delayed blitz where the RB is running a route. He usually only chips if someone is there immediately but it may have led to a bit of confusion on Vahe’s part. Regardless, Vahe has to be more aware of the gap he vacated.

Right.  The blitz was so delayed, Young was already into his route.  Vahe has to be prepared for that blitz--even if he just thinks the LB is "biting" on the play fake, he has to be prepared to pick up penetration in that gap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That failure is a technique issue. He should help block without turning his hips. His hips should remain parallel to the line of scrimmage because he also needs to be available to assist if the outside DE cuts inside the tackle.

Edited by pacman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, pacman said:

That failure is a technique issue. He should help block without turning his hips. His hips should remain parallel to the line of scrimmage.

Yeah, he’s always been bad about fully vacating his gap and turning towards a DL, whether to his right or left. Usually when helps not even really needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The right guard Rodriguez fucked up big time too, in that clip. Looking too much at the right DE, ignoring the center getting bull rushed on the right side.

Edited by pacman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, pacman said:

The right guard Rodriguez fucked up big time too, in that clip. Looking too much at the right DE, ignoring the center getting bull rushed on the right side.

Rodriguez fucked up a ton in the game. I almost put a clip of him in my longer post on the Spring Game thread, but he let Graham stack him and get pressure to his inside while playing LG on a pass play and then he got blown up Omenihu on the sprint right where shane had to peel back and threw a TD to CJ. Rodriguez is pretty bad. He absolutely needs to get beat out by someone for RG in the fall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Just getting around to watching the offensive highlights from the USC game, and I am impressed with this O-line. They dominated pretty much from snap 1 versus a 4-man pass rush, and handled most blitzes and stunts well. They seem sound. Most of the linemen seem to handle stunts/loops seamlessly, and the blitzes are picked up conventionally (linemen handle inside and let the RB handle whichever defender is coming off the outermost edge) with the RB like they've been doing it for years. Sam had plenty of clean pockets to throw from, and showed some ability to hold onto the ball just long enough, even against blitzes. He missed some throws but also threw some darts when they gave him time.

The run blocking isn't as impressive, but isn't bad at all. They seem to combo block well and most of them get off of the combo and onto a linebacker quickly. There's still some lead feet (from Vahe especially) that leads to D-linemen shedding rather easily if they have strong arms, but otherwise solid. An underrated part of the run blocking so far has been Andrew Beck too, he is put in many different positions and angles and is hitting people in all of them. I can see what we missed last year when he got hurt, they really ask a lot of the TE from this offense and he has been fearless. Probably my favorite player to watch in this video.

Tre Watson is better than I expected. Anderson is solid, and about as good as I expected, not as strong was Connor was but very fundamentally sound.

Edited by BurdineBandit

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Red Five said:

I think it’s pretty obvious our best five are on the field. Wonder if we could redshirt Shack. And Okafor.

The issue is that with Shack injured, Okafor is almost certainly probably our next man up off the bench. We've been actually fortunate with OL injuries thus far, but I don't expect that to last the entire season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, BigHorn'13 said:

Maybe it depends who he's replacing but I'd think Imade is near the top of that list, too. 

He is by default, but Imade has yet to play a collegiate snap, so I will make no assumptions about his ability to play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The line play is light years better than last year.

Also, completely unrelated, but I counted a grand total of 5 pass attempts to receivers between the hashes, three of which were completed. Two to Beck and the long TD to Moore. Another slant to Beck on a hot route got knocked down at the line but appeared to be open. I don't understand why they don't attack the middle of the field more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

The line play is light years better than last year.

Also, completely unrelated, but I counted a grand total of 5 pass attempts to receivers between the hashes, three of which were completed. Two to Beck and the long TD to Moore. Another slant to Beck on a hot route got knocked down at the line but appeared to be open. I don't understand why they don't attack the middle of the field more.

Watched replay on LHN.  This is all Klatt was talking about from 1st quarter on.  Didn't seem middle was 1st/2nd read often or simply Sam is much more comfortable reading the field in halves.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FWIW, currently Army has 184 yards rushing against OU.  I think our o-line is better than theirs and might be able to keep the chains moving against the Sooners with running the ball.  They are showing dominance in the second half of the last two games allowing the defense to rest and leading time killing drives with a lead.  Good mojo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Machinator said:

I'm a Herb Hand believer. This is not an especially talented unit, but they play hard, and generally assignment-sound.

He got a lot of shit at Auburn for his coaching of pass pro. 

There were some times guys were getting straight up beat by TCU, but generally our pass pro has been really solid. 

This is turning out to be Herman's second best hire behind Orlando. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Machinator said:

I'm a Herb Hand believer. This is not an especially talented unit, but they play hard, and generally assignment-sound.

 

Right there with you.  The attitude this group has is a reflection of their coaching, and Hand is making a difference fundamentally.

 

Edited by pch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Jkwellborn said:

Anderson looked like he was gimpy at one point in the 4th.

How much does Cosmi weigh? He looks like he’s about 275.

Don't know if he was gimpy so much as exhausted. He wasn't with us for spring and maybe didn't go through the same conditioning regimen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Anderson looked like he was gimpy at one point in the 4th.

How much does Cosmi weigh? He looks like he’s about 275.


Herman said in his presser that he had a knee injury but played through it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


mpu


Football ... Basketball ... Baseball ... Other Sports ... Recruiting ... Gambling ... Movies & TV ... Music ... Hobbies ... Lulz ... Food & Travel ... Daily Texan ... Help ... For Sale ... Politics ... Board Discussion
×
×
  • Create New...