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Goo Punch

Luka Doncic

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Not sure how you think a 38 year old kidd or jj barea got all those nice looks, but a lot of it had to do with dirk being on the floor.  They weren’t iso against wade. 

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40 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Not sure how you think a 38 year old kidd or jj barea got all those nice looks, but a lot of it had to do with dirk being on the floor.  They weren’t iso against wade. 

Does not mean Dirk put the team on his back and carried them by himself. Not even close to what he did. 

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I'd like to hear y'all break down the Western Conference semifinals/finals from that same season and see how you marginalize Dirk in those too lol.  I'll hang up and listen.

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Posted (edited)

and i'd like for you (and all of the other Mavs fans in here blowing Dirk's impact well out of proportion) to post literally anything substantive to back up your side of the argument. I mean I just gave you a factual recap of every single game of the 2011 Finals and you've taken it as some sort biased and slanted slight against Dirk. so any time you want to make your case using, i dunno, stats, facts, or anecdotal evidence, be my guest. 

also, breaking news, this just in: dallas sports fans continue to be completely delusional and overly sensitive people who break down and delude themselves whenever the reality of their favorite team/player isn't what they want it to be. 

Edited by Goo Punch

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"Dirk's mere presence is responsible for Jason Kidd (first ballot HOFer, one of the greatest PGs and most prolific three point shooters of all time) hitting threes." I'm still laughing at that one. 

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1 hour ago, Goo Punch said:

lol, now Dirk is responsible for the success of everyone on the team in 2011. ok. 

I agree with the basic premise of Luka being more skilled but you are greatly underselling Dirk throughout this thread. Every title takes a team effort. Every single one. Dirk was the best player and finals mvp. I don’t care if you say he carried them or was responsible or what, you’re underselling his value to winning that title.

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

"Dirk's mere presence is responsible for Jason Kidd (first ballot HOFer, one of the greatest PGs and most prolific three point shooters of all time) hitting threes." I'm still laughing at that one. 

Jason Kidd is not one of the most prolific three point shooters of all time, at least not in terms of efficiency. He played a long time and shot a lot but only really had 3 seasons of 40plus from outside 

Edited by hobbes2702

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

and i'd like for you (and all of the other Mavs fans in here blowing Dirk's impact well out of proportion) to post literally anything substantive to back up your side of the argument. I mean I just gave you a factual recap of every single game of the 2011 Finals and you've taken it as some sort biased and slanted slight against Dirk.

The factual recap that didn't even mention his game winner with 3.5 seconds left in Game 2?  Or the fact that he played Game 4 with a 102 fever and hit another killer in that one with 14 seconds left?  As "delusional" as we Mavs fans are,  most non-Mavs fans have been doing the opposite with that same dumb downplaying bullshit when it comes to Dirk for years.  So this doesn't make you unique.  No big deal.

I'm fine with my (apparently) overly-romanticized thoughts on Dirk's career and his run in 2011.  I don't really care about anyone else's.  

 

Edited by threesheets

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32 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

I agree with the basic premise of Luka being more skilled but you are greatly underselling Dirk throughout this thread. Every title takes a team effort. Every single one. Dirk was the best player and finals mvp. I don’t care if you say he carried them or was responsible or what, you’re underselling his value to winning that title.

cite specific examples where i'm "greatly underselling" what Dirk did in 2011. i'm simply refuting the 100% false idea that he carried that team on his back and you guys are acting like i'm saying be sucks. 

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Luka better improve the 3 if he's compared to Bird, so that's not a good fit.  He's more of a Magic/Jason Kidd hybrid than anything else. Remember early Jason Kidd of the 90s Mavs fans? That guy was one of the most electric young guys ever. I remember when he blew up Clyde Drexler for 48 points.

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32 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Jason Kidd is not one of the most prolific three point shooters of all time, at least not in terms of efficiency. He played a long time and shot a lot but only really had 3 seasons of 40plus from outside 

prolific means he made a bunch of them, and when he retired he was like 3rd all time in made threes. i can't scoff hard enough at the idea that Dirk's mere presence was responsible for baskets made by his teammates. the only people here who greatly misrepresenting Dirk are biased Mavs fans. 

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Just now, Goo Punch said:

prolific means he made a bunch of them, and when he retired he was like 3rd all time in made threes. i can't scoff hard enough at the idea that Dirk's mere presence was responsible for baskets made by his teammates. the only people here who greatly misrepresenting Dirk are biased Mavs fans. 

Cool well I’m not a Mavs fan in anyway but he was the best player on a title team. You’re getting so bogged down in the verbiage and I’m not sure why. Again, every championship requires a team effort at the highest level. No single player wins a title. Dirk did what he needed to in order to lead his team to the title.

The premise of the thread is a good one but even there you’re underselling the impact Dirk had on the NBA. I mean I would have a hard time arguing that there have been twenty players more influential on the game than Dirk all time.

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20 minutes ago, threesheets said:

The factual recap that didn't even mention his game winner with 3.5 seconds left in Game 2?  Or the fact that he played Game 4 with a 102 fever and hit another killer in that one with 14 seconds left?  As "delusional" as we Mavs fans are,  most non-Mavs fans have been doing the opposite with that same dumb downplaying bullshit when it comes to Dirk for years.  So this doesn't make you unique.  No big deal.

I'm fine with my (apparently) overly-romanticized thoughts on Dirk's career and his run in 2011.  I don't really care about anyone else's.  

 

there is not a single thing in this post that even attempts to support the idea that Dirk carried his team to a title. every time i remind you guys of what we're actually talking about you come back with arguments that don't even address the subject of the conversation. "but he made a big shot in game 2!" great. he also shot less than 50% from the field for the series, relied on a ton of FTs to get his points, was outright bad for the first 90% of the deciding game, and would never have come close to winning a title without substantial efforts from Kidd, Marion, Chandler, Terry, and Barrea. ipso facto, Dirk did not put the team on his back and carry them to a title. period. it's not even up for debate. get over it. 

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4 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

prolific means he made a bunch of them, and when he retired he was like 3rd all time in made threes. i can't scoff hard enough at the idea that Dirk's mere presence was responsible for baskets made by his teammates. the only people here who greatly misrepresenting Dirk are biased Mavs fans. 

He made a bunch of them at a career 35% clip. He played for 20 seasons. You’re acting as though he was an elite shooter and he’s never been that. He just played consistent basketball for a long time and by the end of his career had gotten good at hitting open looks, mainly because he couldn’t break down defenses off the dribble as well as he did in his younger days. Dirk being on the court absolutely opened up looks for Terry, Kidd, and Marion. And as important as Chandler was to the title, he did Dirk no favors on offense because he crowded the spots on the floor that Dirk wanted to occupy.

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Just now, Goo Punch said:

there is not a single thing in this post that even attempts to support the idea that Dirk carried his team to a title. every time i remind you guys of what we're actually talking about you come back with arguments that don't even address the subject of the conversation. "but he made a big shot in game 2!" great. he also shot less than 50% from the field for the series, relied on a ton of FTs to get his points, was outright bad for the first 90% of the deciding game, and would never have come close to winning a title without substantial efforts from Kidd, Marion, Chandler, Terry, and Barrea. ipso facto, Dirk did not put the team on his back and carry them to a title. period. it's not even up for debate. get over it. 

Points are points and it doesn't matter if they come from the free throw line or not, they still count and still help the team win. 

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1 minute ago, Goo Punch said:

there is not a single thing in this post that even attempts to support the idea that Dirk carried his team to a title. every time i remind you guys of what we're actually talking about you come back with arguments that don't even address the subject of the conversation. "but he made a big shot in game 2!" great. he also shot less than 50% from the field for the series, relied on a ton of FTs to get his points, was outright bad for the first 90% of the deciding game, and would never have come close to winning a title without substantial efforts from Kidd, Marion, Chandler, Terry, and Barrea. ipso facto, Dirk did not put the team on his back and carry them to a title. period. it's not even up for debate. get over it. 

Lebron doesn’t win the title without substantial efforts from Kyrie, Tristan, Love, Richard Jefferson, JR. Did he carry them? I mean I guess. At the end of the day he was the best player and they won. 

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Cool well I’m not a Mavs fan in anyway but he was the best player on a title team. You’re getting so bogged down in the verbiage and I’m not sure why. 

I'm not getting "bogged down in verbiage", I'm replying to the explicit statement that he put the team on his back and carried them to the title when he factually did not. period. i have no idea what is so hard to grasp about this. "he was the best player on a title winning team." yep. who said otherwise? does being the best player automatically mean that you carried your team a la Iverson or LeBron? no. not even close.

I mean seriously, on the list of all time great NBA Finals performances for a series, 2011 Dirk Nowitzki is nowhere near the top, and might not even make the list depending on just how long we want to make this thing. the idea that he did it all himself, that he had no help, that he put the team on his back- it's just plain wrong. 

Edited by Goo Punch

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8 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

He made a bunch of them at a career 35% clip. He played for 20 seasons. You’re acting as though he was an elite shooter and he’s never been that. 

Jesus Christ, how can you accuse me of mischaracterizing *anything* when that's literally all you've done with every one of my posts you've replied to? i said one factual statement about Jason Kidd's three point shooting, with zero commentary or opinion added. YOU are acting like Ive made him out to be something that he isn't. He made a bunch of threes in his career. That's exactly what I said he did, and nothing more. 

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3 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

I'm not getting "bogged down in verbiage", I'm replying to the explicit statement that he put the team on his back and carried them to the title when he factually did not. period. i have no idea what is so hard to grasp about this. "he was the best player on a title winning team." yep. who said otherwise? on the list of all time great NBA Finals performances for a series, 2011 Dirk Nowitzki is nowhere near the top, and might not even make the most depending on just how long we want to make this list. the idea that he did it all himself is just plain wrong. 

Carried them to the title is certainly open to interpretation. If you’re going to start trying to claim facts you’re going to need to define your terms. Does carrying them mean the best player? Most points? Biggest play? Most consistent? Carried them to the title is inherently an opinion argument 

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1 minute ago, Goo Punch said:

Jesus Christ, how can you accuse me of mischaracterizing *anything* when that's literally all you've done with every one of my posts you've replied to? i said one factual statement about Jason Kidd's three point shooting, with zero commentary or opinion added. YOU are acting like Ive made him out to be something that he isn't. He made a bunch of threes in his career. That's exactly what I said he did, and nothing more. 

Ok. You’re right everyone else is wrong. Have a good night 

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1 hour ago, Goo Punch said:

 

also, breaking news, this just in: dallas sports fans continue to be completely delusional and overly sensitive people who break down and delude themselves whenever the reality of their favorite team/player isn't what they want it to be. 

... So, like literally every other fan base, then? 

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7 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Carried them to the title is certainly open to interpretation. If you’re going to start trying to claim facts you’re going to need to define your terms. Does carrying them mean the best player? Most points? Biggest play? Most consistent? Carried them to the title is inherently an opinion argument 

lmao, more bullshit that doesn't even attempt to make the case that Dirk carried the team. you guys get all huffy and puffy and upset and yet you absolutely refuse to even attempt to make a case that says that Dirk carried the team. how many times do i have to mention specific examples of what i'm talking about for you to get it (not that I should even have to explain what it means to carry ones team)? The way AI carried Philly; the way LeBron carried Cleveland; like that. Dirk's performance in the 2011 Finals wasn't even anything particularly special, let alone one guy carrying his team to a championship. You should either concede or give up at this point, because there's nothing any of you can say that will rewrite history. 

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9 minutes ago, TornACL said:

... So, like literally every other fan base, then? 

well yeah, pretty much. 

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9 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

lmao, more bullshit that doesn't even attempt to make the case that Dirk carried the team. you guys get all huffy and puffy and upset and yet you absolutely refuse to even attempt to make a case that says that Dirk carried the team. how many times do i have to mention specific examples of what i'm talking about for you to get it (not that I should even have to explain what it means to carry ones team)? The way AI carried Philly; the way LeBron carried Cleveland; like that. Dirk's performance in the 2011 Finals wasn't even anything particularly special, let alone one guy carrying his team to a championship. You should either concede or give up at this point, because there's nothing any of you can say that will rewrite history. 

You don’t read well

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11 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

lmao, more bullshit that doesn't even attempt to make the case that Dirk carried the team. you guys get all huffy and puffy and upset and yet you absolutely refuse to even attempt to make a case that says that Dirk carried the team. how many times do i have to mention specific examples of what i'm talking about for you to get it (not that I should even have to explain what it means to carry ones team)? The way AI carried Philly; the way LeBron carried Cleveland; like that. Dirk's performance in the 2011 Finals wasn't even anything particularly special, let alone one guy carrying his team to a championship. You should either concede or give up at this point, because there's nothing any of you can say that will rewrite history. 

32 ppg on 56/36/97 shooting in the WCF against young KD, Russ, and Harden. 48 in Game 1 to set the tone. 40 in OKC in Game 4 to keep the Thunder from tying the series and essentially ending it right there.

25 and 9 on 57/73/94 shooting to sweep the Lakers in a series that they were expected to get demolished by the defending champs.

Reducing an entire postseason run to one series is silly. Yet, I'm betting that, if you watch the Finals again, you'll see that the impact of his late game play went way beyond the raw statistics. Especially while LeBron was hiding in the corner, running from the moment.

Obviously, that Dallas team caught lightning in a bottle and got positive contributions from literally everyone who stepped on the court. Chandler and the defense deserve tremendous credit--credit that, despite Dirk's much improved effort on that end, wasn't his doing.

BUT, you'd be hard-pressed to find a championship team with a larger gap between its 1st and 2nd best (Terry or Chandler I guess?) players. Carrying might not be the right word, but Dirk was the heart and soul of that team, and they required--and got--his best when it was most needed.

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Posted (edited)
On 12/30/2019 at 11:41 AM, gsoda3 said:

Can he take an entire team on his shoulders and will his way to a championship? 

^^^^^^ this is what started this entire stupid argument. Dirk did not do this. That's a fact. i don't even disagree with 95% of the stuff being said, because Dirk was clearly a deserved Finals MVP. but he didn't will his team to a title. it was a total team effort.

edit- ive read aggie's post now, and yeah, if we're talking about the WC playoffs before the Finals then you have a much better example of Dirk carrying his team. 

Edited by Goo Punch

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No one's "carried" a team the way that you're suggesting. 

Even LeBron's peak dominance in a short 3 game stretch in Games 5-7 of the 2016 Finals needed a HUGE Kyrie Game 5 and for him to make the biggest shot in Game 7 to make it count.

You bring up AI...he sure as shit needed great, hard-nosed defensive players (and AI was a terrible defender himself) to keep games from getting away from them when he was having his fairly typical 10-29 shooting night...and also never really sniffed a championship.

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I thought of one! A championship team that had an even bigger gap between its top 2 players than Dallas: the first Hakeem title. Their best player was a Top 10 All-Time great; their 2nd was...Otis Thorpe

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Derka, would you give me some numbers on lebron and AI to make your point?  You keep mentioning them but only give dirk’s NBAF stats. Give me your bar to cross for a player to have done it on his own. 

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^^^^^^ this is what started this entire stupid argument. Dirk did not do this. That's a fact. i don't even disagree with 95% of the stuff being said, because Dirk was clearly a deserved Finals MVP. but he didn't will his team to a title. it was a total team effort.

edit- ive read aggie's post now, and yeah, if we're talking about the WC playoffs before the Finals then you have a much better example of Dirk carrying his team. 

It seems you have a myopic view of the scope and definition of carrying a team to a championship. You need to zoom way out and look at that Mavs team- what's the effect if Dirk's not there? Even with him there on paper there's no way they should be competitive with several of the teams from that year's playoffs.

 

Dirk did a LOT of stuff that didn't show up in the statline. He was the emotional core of the team. His intensity and work ethic set the tone of belief for a bunch of over the hill and role players. Carrying a team doesn't just mean pouring in buckets, after all we've seen players who do that but are detriments to their team. It also means leading the right way and getting the most out of their team.

 

As an aside, I appreciate the work you've done in backing up your argument with statistics.

 

 

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2 hours ago, aggie08 said:

I thought of one! A championship team that had an even bigger gap between its top 2 players than Dallas: the first Hakeem title. Their best player was a Top 10 All-Time great; their 2nd was...Otis Thorpe

And they played a team with an all-time top 50 player and who's next best player was...... Charles Oakley.  Timmy D had a season where he was head and shoulders above most of the Spurs with I think DRob, over the hill, at the end, as the 2nd best player.

 

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Posted (edited)

 

 

ok i just found out that Dirk is Arsenal fan, and based on this new information i'm going to have to change my tune. it's Dirk >>>>> Luka all day baby! that Real Madrid loving bastard could only dream of filling Dirk's shoes!!

seriously though, i do want to make it clear that i'm not anti-Dirk or anything, i'm just blown away at how good Luka is. and i watched him play at RM, and i listened to the Russillo podcasts where he was telling anyone who would listen that he was going to be great, and i expected him to come in and play well right away...but not like this. i haven't seen anyone storm the league like this since LeBron. 

Edited by Goo Punch

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10 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

The fuck is Arsenal?

by far the greatest team the world has ever seen.

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1 hour ago, Goo Punch said:

by far the greatest team the world has ever seen.

I'm going to need to see the statistics to back this one up

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3 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

 

 

ok i just found out that Dirk is Arsenal fan, and based on this new information i'm going to have to change my tune. it's Dirk >>>>> Luka all day baby! that Real Madrid loving bastard could only dream of filling Dirk's shoes!!

seriously though, i do want to make it clear that i'm not anti-Dirk or anything, i'm just blown away at how good Luka is. and i watched him play at RM, and i listened to the Russillo podcasts where he was telling anyone who would listen that he was going to be great, and i expected him to come in and play well right away...but not like this. i haven't seen anyone storm the league like this since LeBron. 

Now I understand why you're so angry all the time...you're an Arsenal fan 

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On ‎12‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 9:03 PM, Dropout said:

Team Derka here. I love Dirk and probably shouldn’t blaspheme but it’s the Internet fuck it. Luka is better right now at 20 than Dirk ever was. If I had to choose one I’d trade Dirk’s known career for Luka’s potential career. Luckily I’m a Mavs fan and don’t have to choose shit. I will enjoy this ride. More than one championship to come for Luka. Hopefully all in Mavs blue and green.

I mean...okay.

On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 12:53 PM, Trey3216 said:

Luka is not a better shooter than Dirk.  Not by a damn sight.  

Correct.

On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 1:22 PM, hobbes2702 said:

Luka is a better scorer but he is not a better shooter.

Correct.

On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2020 at 12:24 PM, Goo Punch said:

again, the Mavs do not win the title without Tyson Chandler. he was a total game changer for them, and no matter what Dirk may have done they were not going to win it all without Chandler. 

Dirk was the star, but he did not "put the team on his back" a la LeBron in Cleveland, AI in Philly, or even LeBron and Kyrie when they won it all. Dirk led the way, but it was a total team/coaching effort that won Dallas the title. 

True.  But they also don't win that title without Dirk being Dirk.

And Lebron didn't put Cleveland on his back. Hell it took an all time great performance from Kyrie to beat back the Warriors WITHOUT KD.

On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2020 at 12:47 PM, Kermit said:

Also, fuck the Kings and the goddamn Suns for allowing the fucking Mavericks to draft Luka. You stupid fucking assholes. There is a reason why your franchises will suck in perpetuity and this is it, the inability to recognize generational talent. You max out Buddy Hield and draft Josh Jackson and wonder why the basketball world has left you behind. Man, fuck you two pathetic ass franchises. Now I have to watch this Slovenian asshole rip through our division for the next 20 years all because Vlade Divac is an absolute moron, and Robert Sarver fucks cats. 

Truth. They really screwed up.  The Hawks too.

21 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

and i'd like for you (and all of the other Mavs fans in here blowing Dirk's impact well out of proportion) to post literally anything substantive to back up your side of the argument. I mean I just gave you a factual recap of every single game of the 2011 Finals and you've taken it as some sort biased and slanted slight against Dirk. so any time you want to make your case using, i dunno, stats, facts, or anecdotal evidence, be my guest. 

also, breaking news, this just in: dallas sports fans continue to be completely delusional and overly sensitive people who break down and delude themselves whenever the reality of their favorite team/player isn't what they want it to be. 

That's different from every other team/sport/city how?

20 hours ago, TornACL said:

... So, like literally every other fan base, then? 

yep.

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