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29 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

Fake!  Everyone knows you have to keep statues of assholes up forever in order to learn history. Its why Germany has Hitler statues everywhere still. 

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I had this discussion with my oldest son late one night outside a bar in New Orleans right by what was formerly Lee circle.  Lee's statue was gone along with the some of the flowery language describing his exploits, but the the area is still a landmark and I suppose at some point some history will be added to include the removal, which is fine with me.

But as I remember from that discussion that night, at the time, I was generally in favor of leaving statues up, so as not to whitewash history etc.  Sometime in the last couple of years I changed my mind and decided what was need was a systematic approach as to what got taken down and a schedule for doing so in order to protect the property and rework many of the sites to provide a more realistic view of history.  I have easily foreseen issues with what might happen with Jefferson and Washington if things are not agreed to and standards put in place.

At some point all of the statues removed might even be worthy enough for their own museum marking the period and telling the story  in which America became more enlightened, but that comes with its own set of moral hazards as well and could end up being some kind of white supremacists shrine.  This is what happens when you don't do things right the first time.

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good on you for coming around but leaving up the whitewashing to prevent the whitewashing is mindbottling 

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Rename Fort Polk to Fort Patton in honor of his “Louisiana Maneuvers” during WW2?  

I’d be down.  

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Celery Man said:

 

And unlike confederate officer worshippers, Dinosaurs at least contribute to the hydrocarbon industry.  

It is so weird to me that there are hundreds of thousands of people, maybe millions, that look at books and films about the Civil War...and think, "Nah, that ain't learning shit...my kid's gonna have to see the Sull Ross statue to understand the "real Civil War."  I mean, you get online and learn about the truth for free, but nah---let's drive to these bumblefuck monuments to ignorance. 

Oh yeah, I forgot...you have to include all the statues of  people who fought against the United States.  Probably explains all those Japanese statues in Alabama.  It's impossible some of our nation is still this fucking stupid.  They were never raised to celebrate military leadership, but they are being razed to mark the end of willful and prideful stupidity.  Turn on your TV, y'all had a good run...but we're not going to need some of you in the 21st Century.  Y'all had a good run though, maybe you'll get a statue ;) 

Edited by Lobo

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I want to see the Columbus statue taken down here. I would hope that it is gone by the end of the year at the latest.

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1 minute ago, UpperWestside said:

I want to see the Columbus statue taken down here. I would hope that it is gone by the end of the year at the latest.

giphy.gif

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The thought of destroying art, even stupid and offensive art, troubles me. There’s a place for these statues that could appropriately tell the right story. That place isn’t on public grounds. 

Since many of these statues were put up in response to the civil rights movement (or earlier), governments have had ample time to realize the error of their ways and find a more appropriate place. I’d rather the art be preserved in a more appropriate place, but the heart wants what the heart wants. I’m not going to lose much sleep over what’s happening.

I think there is a public place for memorials to fallen Confederate soldiers (as opposed to statues to Confederate heroes). Given the understandable passions of the day, statue removal will be somewhat arbitrary. 

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

I want to see the Columbus statue taken down here. I would hope that it is gone by the end of the year at the latest.

Csb time. I was married next to his onetime crypt in Havana. Found out right the before the wedding. 
 

He is still very much loved down there. 

Edited by Xian

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He is still very much loved down there. 

 

And across the rest of western world and Spain and Italy, but you take all those down and it’s probably only a hundred or so statues and monuments.

 

ETA: easily googled. Stopped counting at 51 and hadn’t got to C as in Columbia yet. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monuments_and_memorials_to_Christopher_Columbus

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12 hours ago, Mole said:

The thought of destroying art, even stupid and offensive art, troubles me. There’s a place for these statues that could appropriately tell the right story. That place isn’t on public grounds. 

Since many of these statues were put up in response to the civil rights movement (or earlier), governments have had ample time to realize the error of their ways and find a more appropriate place. I’d rather the art be preserved in a more appropriate place, but the heart wants what the heart wants. I’m not going to lose much sleep over what’s happening.

I think there is a public place for memorials to fallen Confederate soldiers (as opposed to statues to Confederate heroes). Given the understandable passions of the day, statue removal will be somewhat arbitrary. 

I agree but officials (govt, schools, etc) could apply some common sense and remove the statues like UT did. If they choose to ignore the requests long enough, the public is going to take the requests in their own hands. And the public isn't going to carefully move the statues to a nearby museum. It's going in the harbor.

15 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Rename Fort Polk to Fort Patton in honor of his “Louisiana Maneuvers” during WW2?  

I’d be down.  

The military has led the way with integration in America and it's disgusting to ask anyone, especially African Americans, to serve our country at a base named after individuals that fought to keep African Americans as slaves. Not to mention that the confederate generals fought AGAINST the US.  Rename the bases and move on.

I don't think for a second that Trump is on board with renaming bases or removing the confederate flag from Marine bases but these military leaders are practically daring him to speak up. Even if Esper tells the military Secretaries to cool it with these orders, they and Esper know that Esper can't do anything about it. Is Esper really going to fire them over it?

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18 hours ago, Jiggy-Z said:

I had this discussion with my oldest son late one night outside a bar in New Orleans right by what was formerly Lee circle.  Lee's statue was gone along with the some of the flowery language describing his exploits, but the the area is still a landmark and I suppose at some point some history will be added to include the removal, which is fine with me.

But as I remember from that discussion that night, at the time, I was generally in favor of leaving statues up, so as not to whitewash history etc.  Sometime in the last couple of years I changed my mind and decided what was need was a systematic approach as to what got taken down and a schedule for doing so in order to protect the property and rework many of the sites to provide a more realistic view of history.  I have easily foreseen issues with what might happen with Jefferson and Washington if things are not agreed to and standards put in place.

At some point all of the statues removed might even be worthy enough for their own museum marking the period and telling the story  in which America became more enlightened, but that comes with its own set of moral hazards as well and could end up being some kind of white supremacists shrine.  This is what happens when you don't do things right the first time.

I don't think that removing a statue in any way whitewashes history, but I could be in the minority on that view. 

Being originally from up north, I never understood the attachment that some southerners have for lauding traitors to the United States of America. 

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

More appropriate location = Stephen Miller's bedroom.

 

Edited by TexArcher

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Just now, TexArcher said:

More important location = Stephen Miller's bedroom.

A more appropriate location? Where would that be? A landfill? Sewage treatment plant? A newly created avenue dedicated to traitors called Racists Row? 

Fuck the (deep) south and all their whiny claims of "state rights". 

 

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2 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

Top 3 worst human being in history. He was Hitler on steroids. The fact that he was on display just shows you how little regard people have for Black life. The man tortured children for God's sake. I'm so happy to see this. 

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That feeling on the back of your neck right now, Trumpers.  To know you were there at the beginning of another tidal shift of history.  That tingling.  That you didn't really do anything wrong, but to suspect...even for a moment...that you were standing with the guy who was one of the last pillars to progress.  Don't be ashamed, but it's gotta feel weird, right?  It's gotta have that little prickle, like how Rex Kramer feels before another date rape?  

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16 hours ago, mdmost said:

I just saw a piece on CNN about this. Glad they took it out. Tear them down. Remove them. Get monuments to people who fought to keep slavery in existence the fuck out of here. 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/us/fredericksburg-slave-auction-block-removal-trnd/index.html

Yeesh.

That's not a statue or a tribute.  

That is a harsh reminder of what slavery was all about.  Unlike some of the statues, that has some historical value, in my opinion.

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44 minutes ago, Bruh Man said:

Top 3 worst human being in history. He was Hitler on steroids. The fact that he was on display just shows you how little regard people have for Black life. The man tortured children for God's sake. I'm so happy to see this. 

The Brabo fountain in Belgium, activists keep chopping off the hand of one of the figures on a Leopold Statute as a rememberence of the tactic Leopold's forces used in the Congo:

spacer.png

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Someone mentioned up thread the possibility of starting to remove statues of Washington, Jefferson, and other Founding Fathers.  Does anyone think that will actually happen?

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17 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Rename Fort Polk to Fort Patton in honor of his “Louisiana Maneuvers” during WW2?  

I’d be down.  

it'll still be a shitty place

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42 minutes ago, Bruh Man said:

Top 3 worst human being in history. He was Hitler on steroids. The fact that he was on display just shows you how little regard people have for Black life. The man tortured children for God's sake. I'm so happy to see this. 

 

Father stares at the hand and foot of his five-year-old, severed ...

"Failure to meet the rubber collection quotas was punishable by death. Meanwhile, the Force Publique were required to provide the hand of their victims as proof when they had shot and killed someone, as it was believed that they would otherwise use the munitions (imported from Europe at considerable cost) for hunting. As a consequence, the rubber quotas were in part paid off in chopped-off hands. Sometimes the hands were collected by the soldiers of the Force Publique, sometimes by the villages themselves. There were even small wars where villages attacked neighbouring villages to gather hands, since their rubber quotas were too unrealistic to fill."

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14 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Someone mentioned up thread the possibility of starting to remove statues of Washington, Jefferson, and other Founding Fathers.  Does anyone think that will actually happen?

I don't think that is on the minds of many today. Could it happen tomorrow? I don't know but that is up to people tomorrow to decide about it. Which is 100% their right. The right to honor the past belongs to the people in the future. Some people are not recognized to be honored until a later date, and others are determined to be dishonored based on contemporary insight. Both are 100% valid.

Regardless I don't think the question of Washington has much to do with keeping up confederate statues today. I suppose confederate statues are the low hanging fruit that protect others from criticism. Remove the confederate statues and it could open up debate on others.

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Someone mentioned up thread the possibility of starting to remove statues of Washington, Jefferson, and other Founding Fathers.  Does anyone think that will actually happen?

 

After Charlottesville there were student govt petitions, City council non binding resolutions, and talking heads discussing it for sure. Too lazy to google who is on record for removing Washington and Jefferson memorials or blowing up Mount Rushmore.

 

I mean if we’re going to be calling out all racists, do slave holding plantation owners get a pass?

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46 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeesh.

That's not a statue or a tribute.  

That is a harsh reminder of what slavery was all about.  Unlike some of the statues, that has some historical value, in my opinion.

Then put it in a museum. Instead it was a constant reminder to black people who lived there of a time when they were considered subhuman. 

Quote
In Fredericksburg, the slave auction block became a site for protests, and it was recently tagged with red, green and white spray paint.
 
"I think it really hit home when there were hundreds of people at the block saying, 'Move it,'" Councilman Chuck Frye Jr. said.
 
Frye, who grew up in Fredericksburg, has childhood memories of people mocking or spitting on the stone as they walked by. He also recalls stories of tourists taking photos with the slave block.
 
"I think racist folks loved it, historians understood it, and black people were intimidated," Frye said.
Frye, the only African American on City Council, proposed removing Fredericksburg's slave auction block in 2017 -- shortly after the deadly "Unite the Right" rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, just an hour and a half drive's west.
 
After consulting members of the community, all of City Council, except for Frye, voted to keep the auction block in place while adding historical context to the site.
 
"It felt terrible," Frye said. "At that moment, I felt like I was on an island."
But the votes against removal only increased Frye's passions.
 
"I stayed the course," Frye said. "I'm not going to waste a cushion in my council seat."
 
After the vote, City Council hired a non-profit -- the International Coalition Sites of Conscience (ICSC) -- that works to tell the stories of historic sites that represent pain in the community or human rights violations. The non-profit helped the city engage the community in conversations, which Mayor Mary Katherine Greenlaw said has helped Fredericksburg be "more honest about our history."
 
"The auction block was the topic, but what you really wound up talking about were historical events of injustice and racial biases," she said.
 
After the ICSC gave the city a report of its findings, which didn't include specific guidance on course of action for the slave auction block, Frye once again brought his proposal to remove the stone. City Council voted 6-1 to approve its removal in November.
 
But a few months after the vote, two local businesses filed a petition to keep the auction block in place, the Free Lance-Star reported. A judge ruled in favor of the city, but one of the businesses, E.D. Cole Building, asked the Virginia Supreme Court to block the stone's removal while the judge's decision was being appealed, the newspaper reported.
 
The legal obstacles were not cleared until April 1, according to the city, weeks into Virginia's state of emergency due to Covid-19. The auction block was removed when the state entered "Phase Two" of its guidelines on easing public health restrictions.
 
Lee R. Lewis Jr., a 71-year-old retiree from a career in finance, grew up in Fredericksburg during segregation. He said he no longer experiences the overt racism he did as a child, but that he is glad to see the slave auction block go.
 
"It reminds us of a time when we were mistreated, we were property, we weren't considered human beings, we weren't equal," he said. "It brings back those memories."

 

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6 minutes ago, Llano Estacado said:

 

After Charlottesville there were student govt petitions, City council non binding resolutions, and talking heads discussing it for sure. Too lazy to google who is on record for removing Washington and Jefferson memorials or blowing up Mount Rushmore.

 

I mean if we’re going to be calling out all racists, do slave holding plantation owners get a pass?

There is a big push to remove the Jackson statue in Nola. 

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28 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

The Brabo fountain in Belgium, activists keep chopping off the hand of one of the figures on a Leopold Statute as a rememberence of the tactic Leopold's forces used in the Congo:

spacer.png

I like this idea. 

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There is a common reply that these statues belong in museums. Are there museums clamoring for confederate statues? What legit museum is looking to have a focus on confederate "heroes"?

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Tarrant County Judge Whitley and 3 county commissioners just voted Yes to remove statues at Courthouse. JD Johnson abstained from the vote.

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1 minute ago, StassneyHorn said:

Tarrant County Judge Whitley and 3 county commissioners just voted Yes to remove statues at Courthouse. JD Johnson abstained from the vote.

LOL at abstaining.

"Do you miss slavery and wish the Confederacy had won?"

"I'm gonna go ahead and plead the 5th."

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Build a “History is Complicated and sometimes Disturbing, and today is going to suck a little bit, but we need to go museum” sandwiched between Washington & Lee and VMI, or somewhere between Lexington, Richmond, or Alexandria. Not married to the name, but similar to US Holocaust museum Could cover Antebellum, CW, Reconstruction, and Civil Rights up-to present.

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He phoned in so it was a little muffled, but his reasoning was along the lines of I wasn’t there in the 50s to put it up and I shouldn’t be here to take it down. Just a wild explanation. He mentioned 30 minutes earlier that he had mostly calls into his office in support of keeping it up. He was also the last one to vote and knew it was going away regardless, so it looks to me it was calculated. Gary Vickes also said there was more support in favor, albeit not a wide margin, but still voted to remove. The county judge Whitley sounded open to removing all Confederate statues in the county, not just the courthouse grounds.

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Posted (edited)

I've never been to Monticello but I know at Mount Vernon they keep a permanent exhibit that shows the slaves quarters and don't shy away from Washington owning slaves. I think there is a way to separate the greatness of these men who founded a country with the horrific trade they did nothing to stop. 20 years ago, any of these conversations were considered blasphemous and the Founding Fathers were above reproach. 

Edited by mdmost

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, mdmost said:

I've never been to Monticello but I know at Mount Vernon they keep a permanent exhibit that shows the slaves quarters and don't shy away from Washington owning slaves. I think there is a way to separate the greatness of these men who founded a country with the horrific trade they help did nothing to stop. 20 years ago, any of these conversations were considered blasphemous and the Founding Fathers were above reproach. 

Yeah, but they still are above reproach to many Republicans.  They talk about the Founders as if they were some all-knowing, benevolent force that can't even be questioned, mainly because they gave us the right to own as many big dick guns as we want.  Never mind that the Founders thought owning humans was very legal and very cool, or that only white, male land-owners should be able to vote. 

This country was founded by and for white male elitists.  All this freedom and equality stuff is just window dressing.

 

Edited by TexArcher

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13 minutes ago, mdmost said:

I've never been to Monticello but I know at Mount Vernon they keep a permanent exhibit that shows the slaves quarters and don't shy away from Washington owning slaves. I think there is a way to separate the greatness of these men who founded a country with the horrific trade they help did nothing to stop. 20 years ago, any of these conversations were considered blasphemous and the Founding Fathers were above reproach. 

Great point, and a problem that the South has refused to face in many respects. It seems like few, or zero, confederate monuments want to acknowledge that slavery existed.  I can't imagine that Stone Mountain in GA wants to include a segment how Lee and Davis wanted to preserve slavery because of personal ideology and to keep the Southern economy afloat. That raises the next legitimate question on why these POS are being honored.

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1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

Someone mentioned up thread the possibility of starting to remove statues of Washington, Jefferson, and other Founding Fathers.  Does anyone think that will actually happen?

One could conceivably defend founding father slaveholders as a product of their time.  Some of the best thinking in the world at that time held that Africans were an inferior species that justified their slavery.  As opposed to the Confederates, who were defending an idea that was clearly past its time.

Of course, from a moral absolute standpoint, it was a repugnant idea and indefensible ab initio.

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Great point, and a problem that the South has refused to face in many respects. It seems like few, or zero, confederate monuments want to acknowledge that slavery existed.  I can't imagine that Stone Mountain in GA wants to include a segment how Lee and Davis wanted to preserve slavery because of personal ideology and to keep the Southern economy afloat. That raises the next legitimate question on why these POS are being honored.

If any monument or statue should be blown off the face of this earth, it’s Stone Fucking Mountain.

Literal KKK shit.

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2 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Someone mentioned up thread the possibility of starting to remove statues of Washington, Jefferson, and other Founding Fathers.  Does anyone think that will actually happen?

Why not?

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