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Hugo Stiglitz

The Robert Mueller Investigation

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, David Dennison said:

Did Russia meddle in the 2016 election for the benefit of Donald Trump?

The irony of the phrase "Russia (1), Russia (2), Russia (3)" used as an implicit pejorative is that it exactly tracks the conclusions of-

(1) America's intelligence agencies

(2) confirmed by Trump's DOJ-appointed Mueller Investigation

(3) re-confirmed, triple checked by the GOP-chaired Senate Intelligence Committee

Edited by Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand

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5 hours ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Oh for sure I am. Every time this thread is bumped, its you trying to make some side point of you "being right" about something.

I didn't bump this thread.  In response to your throw away quip, I just asked you to consider how you would react if Roger Stone had done one quarter the shit we know was done by operatives working on behalf of the DNC/HRC. Your response is to spread disinformation that you have been corrected on numerous times on this thread. I guess on this thread being wrong repeatedly and unapologetically is a badge of honor. 

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1 hour ago, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

The irony of the phrase "Russia (1), Russia (2), Russia (3)" used as an implicit pejorative is that it exactly tracks the conclusions of-

(1) America's intelligence agencies

(2) confirmed by Trump's DOJ-appointed Mueller Investigation

(3) re-confirmed, triple checked by the GOP-chaired Senate Intelligence Committee

 

They attacked our democracy damnit!

 

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Just now, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

I have no idea what this means.


Pretty self explanatory imo. 

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11 minutes ago, Anastasis said:


Pretty self explanatory imo. 

Super-cryptic 8-D posting, amigo. I look forward to your "Do I constantly have to re-explain the point diverting minutia that is the entire reason this thread exists" posts. Cuz I love me some Beatles.

 

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22 minutes ago, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

I have no idea what this means.

He has reduced Russian interference In the election to bots posting outlandish Facebook memes.

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I like it, but I think that the situation is more rightly summed up by this one.

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, StassneyHorn said:

He has reduced Russian interference In the election to bots posting outlandish Facebook memes.

They're all real. 

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12 hours ago, Anastasis said:

I didn't bump this thread.  In response to your throw away quip, I just asked you to consider how you would react if Roger Stone had done one quarter the shit we know was done by operatives working on behalf of the DNC/HRC. Your response is to spread disinformation that you have been corrected on numerous times on this thread. I guess on this thread being wrong repeatedly and unapologetically is a badge of honor. 

What disinformation? That the Hillary campaign were the ones really working with the Russians and that we should be looking at them instead of Trump? 

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6 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

What disinformation?

Pick basically any of your posts on page 672. 

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27 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Pick basically any of your posts on page 672. 

No no no, outline it. You said I lied about when Steele was hired, but I did no such thing. What else? 

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20 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

No no no, outline it. You said I lied about when Steele was hired, but I did no such thing. What else? 

Just to be clear, I didn't call you a liar or say that you lied.  I simply pointed out that you were repeating something that was not factually accurate, but is oft repeated disinformation. It gets corrected just about every time somebody runs it back up the flag pole here.  Just like the assertion that the DNC funded dossier was fully vetted before being used to push a surveillance warrant across the probable cause threshold. 

  

  

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23 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Any earth shattering revelations in this thread during this new bump?  I'm very excited.

Well, actually, yeah. The Clinton campaign, working with the deep state, colluded with Russia (Putin loves the Clintons and the FBI) to win an election. We should look into it and be shocked and appalled at its apparent success. And if you do not believe that, YOU are the conspiracy theorist. 

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Just now, SmokeyTheBear said:

Well, actually, yeah. The Clinton campaign, working with the deep state, colluded with Russia (Putin loves the Clintons and the FBI) to win an election. We should look into it and be shocked and appalled at its apparent success. And if you do not believe that, YOU are the conspiracy theorist. 

Amazing how much brain damage is generated simply by asking how much your head would explode if Roger Stone did the things that operatives working on behalf of the DNC and HRC campaign did. 

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1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Just to be clear, I didn't call you a liar or say that you lied.  I simply pointed out that you were repeating something that was not factually accurate, but is oft repeated disinformation. It gets corrected just about every time somebody runs it back up the flag pole here.  Just like the assertion that the DNC funded dossier was fully vetted before being used to push a surveillance warrant across the probable cause threshold. 

  

  

Again, I stated that Steele's group (Fusion GPS) was hired by a conservative group to dig up dirt on Trump. It was then passed to the Clinton group to continue dirt digging, which then included Steele. Where is the misinformation? Inform me, cause everything I'm reading on it shows that that is what happened. You are the one injecting that Clinton apparently ordered Steele to use Russian disinformation and somehow convinced the FBI to blindly run with it. THAT sounds like disinformation being repeated in this thread. Show citation on how/where/when that happened. 

Everything I know of the FBI, pre Trump, is that they loathed the Clinton's and would never want to work with them. How do I know that? Cause my uncle used to be the Deputy Director of the FBI and actually voted for Trump because he hated the Clinton's so much.  Now? He wont say much to the family but he says if the country knew half of what was going on behind the scenes with Russia and certain elements of Trumps campaign, that we would be shitting ourselves. There was/is legit fear that Russia truly fucked us. Anecdotal perspective? Sure. But trust his input way more than yours.  

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5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Amazing how much brain damage is generated simply by asking how much your head would explode if Roger Stone did the things that operatives working on behalf of the DNC and HRC campaign did. 

Say what you mean rather than throwing a bunch of hypotheticals out there and having people trying to guess what you are getting at. 

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10 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Again, I stated that Steele's group (Fusion GPS) was hired by a conservative group to dig up dirt on Trump. It was then passed to the Clinton group to continue dirt digging, which then included Steele. Where is the misinformation? Inform me, cause everything I'm reading on it shows that that is what happened.

JFC.  It is hard to have a detailed discussion around these things when you can't be bothered to get the simple basics correct.  Fusion is not Steele's group.  Glenn Simpson runs Fusion. Steele's firm is called Orbis.  Steele was not involved with anything Fusion did prior to the DNC taking over the funding. 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

 

JFC.  It is hard to have a detailed discussion around these things when you can't be bothered to get the simple basics correct.  Fusion is not Steele's group.  Glenn Simpson runs Fusion. Steele's firm is called Orbis.  Steele was not involved with anything Fusion did prior to the DNC taking over the funding. 

Well JFC, Fusion GPS hired Steele, so I'm now lumping Steele with GPS as part of a group for sake of discussion. Apologies for not narrowing down details for you. You can now see how frustrating it is to try and get your point when you talk in hypotheticals and amorphic statements. 

 

*But let's point to that tiny discrepancy while deflecting from your assertion (joke, hypothetical, ?) about what if Clinton did something nefarious via Steele. 

Edited by SmokeyTheBear

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1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

Any earth shattering revelations in this thread during this new bump?  I'm very excited.

no, just typical Annie saying a whole lot of nothing but convinced he "gotcha" after each post. 

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15 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Well JFC, Fusion GPS hired Steele, so I'm now lumping Steele with GPS as part of a group for sake of discussion. Apologies for not narrowing down details for you.

I am not asking you to narrow down the details, I am just pointing out that when you try to use details you are doing so inaccurately.

 

It's amazing how hard it is for a few of you guys to just admit that you would lose your minds if Roger Stone contracted a foreign intelligence operative to procure, collect, and package up disinformation intended to influence the media and the FBI in effort to stoke fantastical conspiracy narratives in the run up to the election.  It's amazing how hard it is for a few of you to separately acknowledge that operatives working on behalf of the DNC/HRC campaign to influence the election were pumping crazy ass conspiracy theories like the server thing right into the FBI and the State department, while HRC was pushing it out to the masses via her twitter account. 

 

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It's amazing how even when the trump admin is tearing justice apart right before our eyes and pushing conspiracy theories in impeachment and judicial proceedings, anastasia's only comment is "BUT HILLARY!!!!"

For fucks sake man. Get a goddamn grip.

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12 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I am not asking you to narrow down the details, I am just pointing out that when you try to use details you are doing so inaccurately.

 

It's amazing how hard it is for a few of you guys to just admit that you would lose your minds if Roger Stone contracted a foreign intelligence operative to procure, collect, and package up disinformation intended to influence the media and the FBI in effort to stoke fantastical conspiracy narratives in the run up to the election.  It's amazing how hard it is for a few of you to separately acknowledge that operatives working on behalf of the DNC/HRC campaign to influence the election were pumping crazy ass conspiracy theories like the server thing right into the FBI and the State department, while HRC was pushing it out to the masses via her twitter account. 

 

Lol your "pumping crazy ass conspiracy theories to the FBI" is my "sending potential important information into a system designed to investigate information". Why is the Clinton campaign being viewed in a negative light for doing so? Isn't that the proper channel to funnel shit like that?? And hell, McCain was the one who handed the dossier to the FBI. 

It's not like they all came out and said, "Russia, if you can do some hacking for us to help us out, that would be great".

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13 minutes ago, Captainant said:

It's amazing how even when the trump admin is tearing justice apart right before our eyes and pushing conspiracy theories in impeachment and judicial proceedings, anastasia's only comment is "BUT HILLARY!!!!"

 

Sorry for pointing out examples of election interference that make you uncomfortable with the discussion. 

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Just now, Anastasis said:

Sorry for pointing out examples of election interference that make you uncomfortable with the discussion. 

For someone who loves to point out things on both sides, you sure do focus exclusively on democrats and bemoan how they're interfering in elections (????) while the GOP is shutting down polling locations and soliciting assistance from communist china and extorting Ukraine for election interference. Keep on fuckin that intellectually dishonest chicken.

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17 hours ago, notre dame joe said:

Last night on Shannon Bream, the anti-Flynn defender of Biden said Who cares if Biden met with Comey's team and suggested the Logan act.  There's nothing wrong with people meeting together and talking.

You mean the Vice President met with the Director of the FBI to discuss intelligence matters?

Shocking!

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10 minutes ago, Captainant said:

For someone who loves to point out things on both sides, you sure do focus exclusively on democrats and bemoan how they're interfering in elections (????) while the GOP is shutting down polling locations and soliciting assistance from communist china and extorting Ukraine for election interference. Keep on fuckin that intellectually dishonest chicken.

I posted plenty in the impeachment discussion, and on polling locations in Harris county.  Haven't posted much about Bolton's book though, other than a quip about the most personally upsetting thing that Bolton endured in the white house was a reluctance to indiscriminately bomb brown people.  

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I posted plenty in the impeachment discussion, and on polling locations in Harris county.  Haven't posted much about Bolton's book though, other than a quip about the most personally upsetting thing that Bolton endured in the white house was a reluctance to indiscriminately bomb brown people.  

Please, we'd love to hear more of your thoughts of what a losing campaign that is completely out of power and public office may have done three years ago. There's definitely not anything actively ongoing within the executive branch that is fundamentally undermining and corroding democracy in the country.

fucking LOVE beating dead horses with moot points. Knock em dead bucko.

E: not to say if there's wrongdoing it shouldn't be investigated and prosecuted, but... Priorities, man.

Edited by Captainant

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Lol your "pumping crazy ass conspiracy theories to the FBI" is my "sending potential important information into a system designed to investigate information". Why is the Clinton campaign being viewed in a negative light for doing so? Isn't that the proper channel to funnel shit like that?? And hell, McCain was the one who handed the dossier to the FBI. 

McCain was not "the one who handed the dossier to the FBI".  Once again, you fail at the details.

Steele delivered the first iterations of his material directly to his FBI handler in London in early July. Through Ohr (a connection forged largely around Steele's connection to Russian Oligarchs, e.g. Deripaska), Steele pressed his FBI contacts to ensure that the material had is intended purchase. Steele also briefed Winer (State), who delivered a transcribed copy based on his read in to contacts at State. Steele than seeded the material with David Corn (reporter), who wrote an article in the days before the election, and who then delivered a separate version to James Baker in November(FBI lawyer). After the election, Steele coordinated though British diplomatic contacts to outreach McCain, who ultimately delivered a separate version to the FBI in December. 

If you look at the pattern, the Perkins Coie/Fusion operation used these triangulated methods of seeding their conspiracy material. They did the same thing with the server conspiracy, using multiple media, State, and FBI contacts to push their conspiracy narrative. Multiple angles played, some of which serve to provide circular corroboration to bolster the credibility of the reporting.  Steele clearly used this strategy to boost the appearance of his own credibility.  This wasn't people channeling things to the proper forums for investigation, it was a well coordinated and multifaceted attempt to channel very specific fantasies cut from whole cloth in attempt to influence the election.

Roger Stone is a reckless buffoon and represents the absolute worst of American politics, but he is not sophisticated enough to pull off this kind of operation. If he did, your heads would be exploding over it. 

Edited by Anastasis

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Russia has bounties out on American soldiers in Afghanistan and in response Trump has said Russia should be readmitted to the G8. But yeah, it’s just a total conspiracy theory to think he’s working with them.

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Russia has bounties out on American soldiers in Afghanistan and in response Trump has said Russia should be readmitted to the G8. But yeah, it’s just a total conspiracy theory to think he’s working with them.

That's a concerning and interesting set of articles from the NYT and WaPo, for sure.  Definitely warrants a deep dive into the IC's findings. But one thing that the history of this thread should challenge us on is the uncritical acceptance of stories based on anonymous sources from within the intelligence community. Remember some of the previous exchanges where we would see articles pop up across various media sources in sequence, and you could pretty tell the affiliation of the source, and the angle they were running? Remember how many times those reports were clearly an attempt to simply craft a narrative favoring the FBI/CIA/Steele/etc?

But put that specific history aside for a minute...

The bread and butter of the intelligence community is manipulation of public opinion via compliant media outlets. At the very least, we should consider the potential motivations behind such planted stories by considering the timing and context, and what outcome may be intended by the publication.

In this case, that potential motivation is scuttling talks that aim to get our military forces out of Afghanistan.

News of the murky initiative comes as American diplomats attempt to kindle political talks that could put end to America’s longest war, now in its 19th year.

But hey, I mean, this would be unheard of right?  The IC would never seek to justify warmongering based on manipulation and framing of intelligence products, would it?

 

Edited by Anastasis

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1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

McCain was not "the one who handed the dossier to the FBI".  Once again, you fail at the details.

Steele delivered the first iterations of his material directly to his FBI handler in London in early July. Through Ohr (a connection forged largely around Steele's connection to Russian Oligarchs, e.g. Deripaska), Steele pressed his FBI contacts to ensure that the material had is intended purchase. Steele also briefed Winer (State), who delivered a transcribed copy based on his read in to contacts at State. Steele than seeded the material with David Corn (reporter), who wrote an article in the days before the election, and who then delivered a separate version to James Baker in November(FBI lawyer). After the election, Steele coordinated though British diplomatic contacts to outreach McCain, who ultimately delivered a separate version to the FBI in December

If you look at the pattern, the Perkins Coie/Fusion operation used these triangulated methods of seeding their conspiracy material. They did the same thing with the server conspiracy, using multiple media, State, and FBI contacts to push their conspiracy narrative. Multiple angles played, some of which serve to provide circular corroboration to bolster the credibility of the reporting.  Steele clearly used this strategy to boost the appearance of his own credibility.  This wasn't people channeling things to the proper forums for investigation, it was a well coordinated and multifaceted attempt to channel very specific fantasies cut from whole cloth in attempt to influence the election.

Roger Stone is a reckless buffoon and represents the absolute worst of American politics, but he is not sophisticated enough to pull off this kind of operation. If he did, your heads would be exploding over it. 

Sounds like a bunch of conspiracy talk to me. 

Oh, and potato/potato. 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/25/politics/lindsey-graham-john-mccain-dossier-fbi/index.html

And again, let's all focus on Clinton and the bang up job they did stealing the election with Steele and Russia helping them (if that's even the case) when we know what Trump and team has and are doing (or maybe Mueller and fbi and other investigative bodies are all in on it??!! ). But "deep state" and "both sides" and all that. 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Sounds like a bunch of conspiracy talk to me. 

Sorry you don't pay attention to details.

Yes, McCain was one of the means of introduction to the FBI, but he passed it off much later and was not "the one who handed it to the FBI".  The material existed inside the FBI long before December, and was introduced by Steele directly. Later by a reporter.  Later by state department contacts.  And yet later still through british diplomatic channels via John McCain.

You can dismiss that as conspiracy talk, but it is all part of the congressional testimony and various public reports related to the matter. And it fits a basic pattern of operation. 

Edited by Anastasis

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11 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Sorry you don't pay attention to details.

Yes, McCain was one of the means of introduction to the FBI, but he passed it off much later and was not "the one who handed it to the FBI".  The material existed inside the FBI long before December, and was introduced by Steele directly. Later by a reporter.  Later by state department contacts.  And yet later still through british diplomatic channels via John McCain.

You can dismiss that as conspiracy talk, but it is all part of the congressional testimony and various public reports related to the matter. And it fits a basic pattern of operation. 

Cool. So it was all handed off to the FBI and was done so on the premise that they blindly accept it as truth and they prosecuted a bunch of people off of it and Trump wrongly lost the election. I totally get your point and why you feel you need to address this over and over and over. It's truly a tragedy of our system, maybe Trump will do something about it. 

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Why the Mueller Investigation Failed

an interesting surmise of the investigation.  Mueller basically gave Trump a lot of leeway just by maintaining silence and by not subpoenaing DOTARD.  For brevity, this article glosses over a bunch of characters and their crimes, such as Flynn and Manafort is barely mentioned.  But these characters are really necessary and noteworthy.  The article instead focuses on Mueller's report, why he presented it the way he did and the fallout, including briefings between he and Barr where Mueller shits the bed.  It's a pretty intense read and I'd love to see the board lawyer takes.      

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Doesn't look like we'll learn anything new before the election.

Justices keep hold on secret Russia investigation material

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Supreme Court is denying Congress access to secret grand jury testimony from special counsel Robert Mueller’s Russia investigation through the November election.

The justices agreed on Thursday to hear the Trump administration’s appeal of a lower court order for the material to be turned over to the Democratic-controlled House of Representatives. The high court’s action will keep the documents out of congressional hands at least until the case is resolved, which is not likely to happen before 2021.

Cont'd

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5 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Doesn't look like we'll learn anything new before the election.

Justices keep hold on secret Russia investigation material

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Supreme Court is denying Congress access to secret grand jury testimony from special counsel Robert Mueller’s Russia investigation through the November election.

The justices agreed on Thursday to hear the Trump administration’s appeal of a lower court order for the material to be turned over to the Democratic-controlled House of Representatives. The high court’s action will keep the documents out of congressional hands at least until the case is resolved, which is not likely to happen before 2021.

Cont'd

I think there's a good chance we never learn the full truth of any of this.  File it away with the Kennedy assassination and Roswell.  Fucking bullshit.

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Posted (edited)

Fairly interesting recap of the investigation.  https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/07/06/why-the-mueller-investigation-failed

Has some info not widely known.  Rosenstein warned Mueller not to go on a fishing expedition ala Starr.  I think that was his tendency, anyway.

The other thing that occurs to me is that, because Mueller (probably rightfully) followed the DOJ policy of not indicting the president, he was probably bound to conclude as to whether a crime was committed.

It is definitely unfair to take a civilian subject to indictment, accuse them of a crime, but not indict them, because the civilian is deprived of the arena in which to defend himself.

I'm not sure that courtesy extends to the unindictable President. Because the President is immune from prosecution under that policy, I think he gets to be accused and gets to defend himself in the political arena and/or impeachment (same thing really).

Edited by TwiceHorn

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'supreme' court : sorry we don't want voter knowing how corrupt our friends are before they vote. 

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8 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Fairly interesting recap of the investigation.  https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/07/06/why-the-mueller-investigation-failed

Has some info not widely known.  Rosenstein warned Mueller not to go on a fishing expedition ala Starr.  I think that was his tendency, anyway.

The other thing that occurs to me is that, because Mueller (probably rightfully) followed the DOJ policy of not indicting the president, he was probably bound to conclude as to whether a crime was committed.

It is definitely unfair to take a civilian subject to indictment, accuse them of a crime, but not indict them, because the civilian is deprived of the arena in which to defend himself.

I'm not sure that courtesy extends to the unindictable President. Because the President is immune from prosecution under that policy, I think he gets to be accused and gets to defend himself in the political arena and/or impeachment (same thing really).

That was widely known among those paying attention.   

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Nivek said:

That was widely known among those paying attention.   

I don't recall it being reported that Rosenstein instructed Mueller not to go on a Starr-style fishing expedition.  That apparently was only revealed in the Rosenstein "scope memos" to Mueller, which were only recently made public.

I do recall Rosenstein saying it wouldn't be a fishing expedition and the term being bandied about quite a bit. 

Edited by TwiceHorn

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12 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I don't recall it being reported that Rosenstein instructed Mueller not to go on a Starr-style fishing expedition.  That apparently was only revealed in the Rosenstein "scope memos" to Mueller, which were only recently made public.

I do recall Rosenstein saying it wouldn't be a fishing expedition and the term being bandied about quite a bit. 

It was announced early on that it would be limited in terms of scope.  It wasn't the biggest news at the time, so it was easy to miss.  It was quickly dropped because of other discussions, news, etc.  

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Me attempting to read between the lines of the incomplete and redacted Mueller Report:

There were two Russian government criminal conspiracies they were working on connecting to the Trump campaign but came up short due to relentless obstruction of justice by everyone involved.  
 

IRA/Trump->Manafort->Kilimnick->GRU

Wikileaks/GRU->Wikileaks->Stone->Trump

 

The most noteworthy thing missing was there was no following the money or anything to do with the NRA infiltration which had a full blown Russian agent maneuvering with the Trump campaign.  
 

There’s also the Trump Tower Moscow deal, the Magnitsky Sanctions meeting, and Flynn’s role that got snowed in under all this shit.

It is amazing how well they made all of this “no big deal!” treachery acceptable to the American public and that was just as frightening as the malfeasance itself.

But now that Putin is paying the Taliban to assassinate American soldiers and Trump is looking away, we’re supposed to be shocked?  

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