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Do We Have a Christ Followers Thread?


ernest_t_bass

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17 minutes ago, PRONG HORN said:

 

Why were they first translated into Greek?  Where are the original copies?  

What are the attributions?

 

 

probably because educated people wrote greek.  see, e.g. septuagint.  originals are long gone.  probably burned down or plundered.  that used to happen back in the days when there were few copies of anything.  a single copy in a secure location is not a backup! (i.e., hide copies of your ex's boobs everywhere).  attributions are matthew, mark, luke, john.  Q source says hi. 

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2 minutes ago, elfenix said:

probably because educated people wrote greek.  see, e.g. septuagint.  originals are long gone.  probably burned down or plundered.  that used to happen back in the days when there were few copies of anything.  a single copy in a secure location is not a backup! (i.e., hide copies of your ex's boobs everywhere).  attributions are matthew, mark, luke, john.  Q source says hi. 

Weren't they translated into Greek from ancient Aramaic and Hebrew?  

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Just now, PRONG HORN said:

Weren't they translated into Greek from ancient Aramaic and Hebrew?  

the jewish parts were originally in something else (again, septuagint), but the received parts of the NT (iow, what has survived through history to us), are all greek.  that's not to say that they weren't themselves translations - the gospels may be hebrew, aramaic, or latin in origin.  scholars argue about it. 

let's keep in mind that following alexander, greek was the language of the nobility and upper classes, which included priestly classes. 

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31 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

They hate us for our freedom and jesus. 

"Fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here" - Saint Augustine. LOL

I remember when the Catholic church said that the invasion of Iraq didn't meet the criteria for Just War and then W's own Methodist church made the same judgment. The Southern Baptists said "hold my beer which isn't an admission of the consumption of beer" and spit out some dumb justification for war.

 

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1 hour ago, F250 said:

My first thought was we should probably stop stirring shit up in the Middle East and military intervention will worsen the situation. The religious aspect is just a political tool to be used to fight against Western influence in the Middle East.

A suicide bomber is just a poor man's missile. If you can't fire a cruise missile from an aircraft carrier just convince someone to deliver the explosives on their person. The religion isn't the problem, pissing off a bunch of people that want to blow you up is the problem.

 

I in no way mean to generalize about Islam. I'm talking about religious fanaticism where you truly believe God will reward after death for doing something horrible. It takes commitment to take on a suicide mission. Religion isn't the only reason one might do that, but, I suppose, it's usually based on some sort of altruism or pure vengeance or both.

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3 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

ETB I’m really sorry to hear this. I’ve followed your exploits for years now and you seem to be getting things straightened out. I do have to say though your posts in this thread remind me of this old joke 

 

A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help.

Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, "Jump in, I can save you."

The stranded fellow shouted back, "No, it's OK, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me."

So the rowboat went on.

Then a motorboat came by. "The fellow in the motorboat shouted, "Jump in, I can save you."

To this the stranded man said, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."

So the motorboat went on.

Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, "Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety."

To this the stranded man again replied, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."

So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.

Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, "I had faith in you but you didn't save me, you let me drown. I don't understand why!"

To this God replied, "I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?"

 

 I think the affair w the preacher man is your helicopter

 

 


 

 

Confront him. Tell him what you think. Let him know it hurt you deeply ETB. Tell him about your demons and struggles. Hear his apology, but watch his actions.

CHIEF

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3 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

I in no way mean to generalize about Islam. I'm talking about religious fanaticism where you truly believe God will reward after death for doing something horrible. It takes commitment to take on a suicide mission. Religion isn't the only reason one might do that, but, I suppose, it's usually based on some sort of altruism or pure vengeance or both.


i once read something that said suicide bombers were on just about every drug you could imagine

 

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20 hours ago, ernest_t_bass said:

Aside from God's will. My will. Etc.  My kids can't be taught the word of God by someone their mother had an affair with.  If the husband has an affair with the babysitter, you don't still keep taking your kids to the same babysitter.

Wow, I really missed the ball on this story.

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Christian Rock is ridiculous.  It's a manifestation of exploitation of the most dogmatic people within faith circles.  There are a lot of people who think that belief requires complete and total immersion into things that speak very literally of Christianity and the Bible.  It seems far more common in Evangelical circles.  I knew kids who grew up going to more Evangelical churches that couldn't listen to albums, or watch TV shows and movies that their little sect didn't approve of.  They could only consume media that celebrated Christ, exclusively.

The only thing these kids were often allowed to do outside of explicitly religious activities was play sports.

I'm kind of on a tangent here, but this is the kind of stuff that turns me off to heavily organized forms of Christianity, even though I see a lot of value in it's teachings and philosophy.

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12 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

Christian Rock is ridiculous.  It's a manifestation of exploitation of the most dogmatic people within faith circles.  There are a lot of people who think that belief requires complete and total immersion into things that speak very literally of Christianity and the Bible. 

This captures part of my aversion to Christian Rock 

And part of it is a matter of taste, because I think Christian Rock, and contemporary Christian music in general, is shit, lyrically and musically.  I've never been to a big box nondenominal Christian church, but have seen video clips of the musical performances, and they're by and large cringeworthy.  And when my ex and I would visit her family in East Texas and attend their small rural Baptist church on Sundays, they'd often have a high schooler with C+ vocals give a karaoke performance to music from some contemporary Christian song while the lyrics are posted on a video screen.  I'd feel a burning hot level of embarrassment that would make my palms sweat.     

Look, I get it.  This form of worship speaks to a lot of people, and lots attend churches like Gateway and Shoreline for the music.  That's fine.  A lot of folks like bro country as well.  To each their own.  And I own my judgey-ness, but for me bad music, bad singing, and schmaltzy, shallow praise lyrics don't make for good spiritual experiences.

And do I think the Bible has no place in rock and roll?  No.  Some of my favorite lyricists like Bruce Springsteen and Bono constantly weave Biblical metaphors into their songs.  But for me there's a difference between a poetic borrowing from the Bible and all-out explicit praise music.

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I don't even like Rock N Roll church.  We have it, I've never been.  Give me hard pews, vestments, some semblance of dressing up, an organ, choir, and hymns every time.  I can take informality, just not calculated informality.

I get why it's there and it's not for me.

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One thing that I always appreciated about growing up in a Catholic church was the reliance on hymns and spirituals for the music.

I occasionally attended a youth group at a neighbor's evangelical/non denominational church and it was always this terrible contemporary Christian music that seemed so hollow and calculated.

My family was really involved in the music at our church (uncle was choir leader, great aunt played the organ, multiple cousins in the choir), and it was much more traditional, which even as a kid who was waaaay into rock, I found a lot more interesting, enjoyable, and authentic than these recently crafted songs ("Awesome God" was the one I hated the most) that were so fucking blunt lyrically, and had crappy melodies.

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I have a colleague that is a great guy, probably a large part of which is his faith.  Oddly enough, he's been a real faith traveler, a member of all sorts of congregations from Catholic to black evangelical.  He's not real in your face about it, but engage him on the topic and you will get an earful, including some pretty fundamentalist stuff.  Definitely not racist, but I think very pro-life and probably anti-gay.  I deliberately avoid those subjects with him.  We have been somewhat out of touch for the last few years, I hope he hasn't gone Trumpy, but it is possible I must acknowledge.

He listens to Christian rock, probably partly because he has 7 kids, but not exclusively at all.  He's a big Zevon fan, for instance. There's a punk band called Relient K that seems pretty decent and has had some mainstream success that I learned of from him.

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4 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I have a colleague that is a great guy, probably a large part of which is his faith.  Oddly enough, he's been a real faith traveler, a member of all sorts of congregations from Catholic to black evangelical.  He's not real in your face about it, but engage him on the topic and you will get an earful, including some pretty fundamentalist stuff.  Definitely not racist, but I think very pro-life and probably anti-gay.  I deliberately avoid those subjects with him.  We have been somewhat out of touch for the last few years, I hope he hasn't gone Trumpy, but it is possible I must acknowledge.

He listens to Christian rock, probably partly because he has 7 kids, but not exclusively at all.  He's a big Zevon fan, for instance. There's a punk band called Relient K that seems pretty decent and has had some mainstream success that I learned of from him.

He's just an excitable boy.

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1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

I don't even like Rock N Roll church.  We have it, I've never been.  Give me hard pews, vestments, some semblance of dressing up, an organ, choir, and hymns every time.  I can take informality, just not calculated informality.

I get why it's there and it's not for me.

This reminds me of my wife's grandma's funeral.  Before the service, I was chatting with the priest, and he was discussing how the community used to have two Catholic churches - one for the Germans and one for the Irish.  I'm not from the same town as my wife, and had never set foot in that building other than maybe a Christmas Eve or Easter Mass here or there.  I told the priest "this must be the Irish one".  He was mildly astonished and asked how I knew that.  It was simple - there were padded pews and kneelers.  The Germans wouldn't have allowed such luxuries.

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On 8/23/2020 at 6:13 PM, David Dennison said:

I don't mind if you do, just keep it to yourself, like Christ taught.

You are an idiot, but God still loves you.

Mark 16:15: He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation."   

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On 8/23/2020 at 1:36 PM, TwiceHorn said:

But you are, ultimately, trying to control the behavior of others.  Just food for thought.

There may be a part of the backstory that I'm not familiar with, but switching churches because the pastor had an affair with his wife doesn't seem like he's trying to control the behavior of others to me.  Instead, it seems like he's trying to take care of his children by getting them out of a church that apparently doesn't have a big problem with it's pastor committing adultery (with a church member, no less).  

Pastor's that sleep with their church members are predators...highly likely this wasn't his first indiscretion.  You have to get your kids out of that environment because this man is not fit to lead a congregation.  For what it's worth, leaving the church is not incompatible with forgiving your wife and the pastor...don't let her try to convince you otherwise.          

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33 minutes ago, 3shot said:

You are an idiot, but God still loves you.

Mark 16:15: He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation."   

And Matthew Chapter 6 warns followers to hide their righteousness and pray in secret.

You learn a lot about contradictions in Catholic theology classes.

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The music was something that took me a while to get used to when I came to Christ. I agree with folks that there is a lot (really a lot) of bad "Christian" music, in and out of the church, just as there is bad music across genres.

That said, there is great music, which serves to worship and praise, that can be found if you look hard enough and/or are open-minded. Further a lot of mainstream artists have put out clean, Christian records, from George Jones to Lil Boosie and Kanye West and a myriad of talents and genres in between, during seasons where they felt moved to express their faith (or exploit Christians for dollars, a la Mariah Carey's Christmas album?), which I definitely appreciate.

Lastly, and I know this is probably a controversial stance or opinion, but I would argue that there is a lot of sinful music in the world and culture that is a form of status quo for Americans and families who are not in the word or faith, and as a parent I do watch out for that and censor what people in my household can listen to-- from the mildly offensive to the obvious nastiness that most parents won't listen to or let their kids listen to whether they are Christian or not (e.g. Cardi B's WAP, most popular rap music, etc.).

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3 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

The music was something that took me a while to get used to when I came to Christ. I agree with folks that there is a lot (really a lot) of bad "Christian" music, in and out of the church, just as there is bad music across genres.

That said, there is great music, which serves to worship and praise, that can be found if you look hard enough and/or are open-minded. Further a lot of mainstream artists have put out clean, Christian records, from George Jones to Lil Boosie and Kanye West and a myriad of talents and genres in between, during seasons where they felt moved to express their faith (or exploit Christians for dollars, a la Mariah Carey's Christmas album?), which I definitely appreciate.

Lastly, and I know this is probably a controversial stance or opinion, but I would argue that there is a lot of sinful music in the world and culture that is a form of status quo for Americans and families who are not in the word or faith, and as a parent I do watch out for that and censor what people in my household can listen to-- from the mildly offensive to the obvious nastiness that most parents won't listen to or let their kids listen to whether they are Christian or not (e.g. Cardi B's WAP, most popular rap music, etc.).

And God so loved the world that he gave us wet ass pussy.

 

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2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

And God so loved the world that he gave us wet ass pussy.

 

I would challenge you to do some introspection and meditation on why, instead of being neutral or ambivalent, you seem to be harboring some sort of emotion (resentment or frustration) with Jesus Christ and Christians/Christianity. 

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5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

And Matthew Chapter 6 warns followers to hide their righteousness and pray in secret.

You learn a lot about contradictions in Catholic theology classes.

Seriously?  You take a passage about humility and extrapolate that into God telling Christians to keep their thoughts on God to themselves?      

There are plenty of contradictions in the Bible, but Mathew 6:1-8 is not contradictory to Mark 16:15.

You are intellectually dishonest in every sense of the word, but you already know that don't you, Sergei The Russian Troll.  

 

 

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Just now, 3shot said:

Seriously?  You take a passage about humility and extrapolate that into God telling Christians to keep their thoughts on God to themselves?      

There are plenty of contradictions in the Bible, but Mathew 6:1-8 is not contradictory to Mark 16:15.

You are intellectually dishonest in every sense of the word, but you already know that don't you, Sergei The Russian Troll.  

 

 

Brother don't fall for it. He's a sick person and needs a sick persons prayer.

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1 minute ago, 3shot said:

Seriously?  You take a passage about humility and extrapolate that into God telling Christians to keep their thoughts on God to themselves?      

There are plenty of contradictions in the Bible, but Mathew 6:1-8 is not contradictory to Mark 16:15.

You are intellectually dishonest in every sense of the word, but you already know that don't you, Sergei The Russian Troll.  

A Christian talking about intellectual dishonesty will never not be funny.

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There’s a good discussion of the discomfort some feel with CCM here: 

 

My own experience and views on the music has evolved quite a bit over the years. I still generally avoid listening to it, for many of the reasons listed above, but I’ve grown to see its value.
 

I spent a few years playing this music at a church that was a pretty wild scene and found it extremely musically and personally gratifying. Some of my most cherished memories are playing that music. The issues discussed on the video (tamping down of the joyful noise) were not present at all, so that may have been the difference. 
 

Also, having taught beginners who only want to learn that style of music, being able to teach them to play all the songs they love in about 15 minutes is actually a very powerful thing. 
 

On the other hand, a few of the groups make me physically ill to listen to (dizziness, headaches, etc). No other music around the world does this. The groups that do this to me are also associated with some of the more manipulative churches, so I’ve wondered if there’s some spiritual element that causes my reaction. I can hear it in the music before I even know who it is.

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1 hour ago, Mole said:

There’s a good discussion of the discomfort some feel with CCM here: 

 

My own experience and views on the music has evolved quite a bit over the years. I still generally avoid listening to it, for many of the reasons listed above, but I’ve grown to see its value.
 

I spent a few years playing this music at a church that was a pretty wild scene and found it extremely musically and personally gratifying. Some of my most cherished memories are playing that music. The issues discussed on the video (tamping down of the joyful noise) were not present at all, so that may have been the difference. 
 

Also, having taught beginners who only want to learn that style of music, being able to teach them to play all the songs they love in about 15 minutes is actually a very powerful thing. 
 

On the other hand, a few of the groups make me physically ill to listen to (dizziness, headaches, etc). No other music around the world does this. The groups that do this to me are also associated with some of the more manipulative churches, so I’ve wondered if there’s some spiritual element that causes my reaction. I can hear it in the music before I even know who it is.

Thanks for sharing; great video.

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A good friend of mine became hooked on pain pills after a back injury. He ended up in a Christian recovery program after his life spiraled out of control. The day he got home, he threw out all “secular” media and would only consume Christian music/movies/tv/books. 
 

It seemed like a very limiting perspective to me, but I respect someone doing whatever it takes to stay out of that pit. He’s still going strong and doing well many years later, so I guess it’s worked for him. Not all things are profitable nor do they edify, so there’s wisdom and honor in figuring that out and pursuing it.

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5 minutes ago, Mole said:

A good friend of mine became hooked on pain pills after a back injury. He ended up in a Christian recovery program after his life spiraled out of control. The day he got home, he threw out all “secular” media and would only consume Christian music/movies/tv/books. 
 

It seemed like a very limiting perspective to me, but I respect someone doing whatever it takes to stay out of that pit. He’s still going strong and doing well many years later, so I guess it’s worked for him. Not all things are profitable nor do they edify, so there’s wisdom and honor in figuring that out and pursuing it.

I think some people basically have to be addicted to something, so they insert religion for drugs.  As Jason Isbell once said "met a brother on a church kick, seems like just another form of dope sick".

Obviously, religion is definitely the better thing to be addicted to than opiates.

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2 hours ago, 3shot said:

There may be a part of the backstory that I'm not familiar with, but switching churches because the pastor had an affair with his wife doesn't seem like he's trying to control the behavior of others to me.  Instead, it seems like he's trying to take care of his children by getting them out of a church that apparently doesn't have a big problem with it's pastor committing adultery (with a church member, no less).  

Pastor's that sleep with their church members are predators...highly likely this wasn't his first indiscretion.  You have to get your kids out of that environment because this man is not fit to lead a congregation.  For what it's worth, leaving the church is not incompatible with forgiving your wife and the pastor...don't let her try to convince you otherwise.          

I don't disagree with most of that.  The pastor should not hold a leadership position in that church.  I understand and agree with a desire to leave that church as a result. One might think the wife would want to remove herself from that situation, as well, and I seriously question her motives in remaining.

But, where e-t-b finds himself is at war with his wife and wife's family over this issue.  Possibly also his kids, that aspect is unclear.  I'm not saying he is wrong, but I am saying that he may be finding himself in a position where he is trying to control others.

While the concept is related to being a "control freak," it's not quite the same in that the simple attempt to control that which you cannot is a fool's errand in which the recovering, especially, and the Christian cannot indulge.  It doesn't mean he's wrong about any of it, it means he needs to "let it go" or "let go, let God."

Let me reiterate:  recovering people are out of the results business, no matter how correct or righteous the result may be.  A recovering person needs to do the right thing in the matter to include prayer and let the chips fall where they may.  To do otherwise will create resentment and a spiritual crisis of sorts.  It's not about right or wrong and deserve's got nothing to do with it.  It's a matter of being "right sized" in the universe and vis-a-vis your higher power.

From other revelations from ernest, his wife is a real piece of work, which seems to me is the real problem.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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30 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I don't disagree with most of that.  The pastor should not hold a leadership position in that church.  I understand and agree with a desire to leave that church as a result. One might think the wife would want to remove herself from that situation, as well, and I seriously question her motives in remaining.

But, where e-t-b finds himself is at war with his wife and wife's family over this issue.  Possibly also his kids, that aspect is unclear.  I'm not saying he is wrong, but I am saying that he may be finding himself in a position where he is trying to control others.

While the concept is related to being a "control freak," it's not quite the same in that the simple attempt to control that which you cannot is a fool's errand in which the recovering, especially, and the Christian cannot indulge.  It doesn't mean he's wrong about any of it, it means he needs to "let it go" or "let go, let God."

Let me reiterate:  recovering people are out of the results business, no matter how correct or righteous the result may be.  A recovering person needs to do the right thing in the matter to include prayer and let the chips fall where they may.  To do otherwise will create resentment and a spiritual crisis of sorts.  It's not about right or wrong and deserve's got nothing to do with it.  It's a matter of being "right sized" in the universe and vis-a-vis your higher power.

From other revelations from ernest, his wife is a real piece of work, which seems to me is the real problem.

I'm being judge-y and a buttinsky.  Forgive me.  But these are my sincere thoughts on the matter.  I'm not claiming to be RIGHT, but it is an aspect of the situation to consider.

The "control" issue is one of particular interest to recovering addicts, but it has a spiritual basis, as well.  I'm just trying to explain what I mean by it because I'm not sure it's all that commonly addressed in the spiritual context.

The "control" issue is also probably more familiar to people as the "control freak asshole" and manipulator.  And that behavior is frequently manifested by the addict, both active and recovering.  But there's a more subtle and benign  aspect to it as well, that harms mostly the controllER, and not the controllED.

I am not accusing e_t_b of being a control freak asshole, or of being wrong.  I am cautioning him to try to be conscious of where his responsibility in this deal may end before he drives himself bonkers about it.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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52 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

I think some people basically have to be addicted to something, so they insert religion for drugs.  As Jason Isbell once said "met a brother on a church kick, seems like just another form of dope sick".

Obviously, religion is definitely the better thing to be addicted to than opiates.

Some asshole from Europe. Religion is the dopamine of the masses.

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ETB, I am sorry for your pain and struggle. But a couple of things you have said stood out as the crux of your delimna.

1. You said that the pastor confessed to the congregation while you were not there to hear the apology. You need to hear it. So go to his elders and say that this pastor owes it. Talk to your wife about this part so that you can have salve for the pain that hurts you. It is the duty of the pastor and the church that serves you to get this done. You aren't letting go of the anger because, in part, you never got this apology. It wasn't enough that he said it while you were gone, in fact, it was cowardly to do it without your family present. If your wife doesn't understand this, go to the elders anyway. Find one you trust to be a referee between you and your wife and speak again to needing this. She may say this shames her unnecessarily and that is really her issue and if it is, then you know and can decide to stay on the roof or board the helicopter.

2. This sentence stood out to me. I don't know that I understand what you mean so maybe you can explain, but it seems to be at the heart of your relationship issue. "My wife and I struggle very much with our own selfishness and self-serving in our marriage, as I'm sure all couples do."  What does that mean? You fight over the last piece of bread, who gets the newer car? Whose troubles get listened first when you both have had a bad day and want to talk it out? I don't think this is all couples problems because if it is constant and about big issues then they split because they are incompatible. 

Seems to me your marriage needs a referee, and if you can trust your elders, start there. Good luck in finding your way through this. 

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I think some people basically have to be addicted to something, so they insert religion for drugs.  As Jason Isbell once said "met a brother on a church kick, seems like just another form of dope sick".
Obviously, religion is definitely the better thing to be addicted to than opiates.
To a variable extent this is somewhat true in 12 step recovery. We switch one God for another. With zero fucks given.

Carl Jung said "spirits contra spiritum" which is basically Spirit (God) against Spirit (booze)

For me, its all about the evidence.

When I'm convinced I'm in charge and God is relegated to a junior managing partner, I try to kill the pain of all that important responsibility with chemicals. I can't help it. My ego is out of control.

When I'm trying to not play God and find some kind of spiritual basis for existing, then I don't have to drink and I really prefer the results in my life. I can share love, acceptance, tolerance. Life has meaning. I can handle life on lifes terms. I can embrace vicissitudes. I can get humility and be honest.

When I rejoined the church (Presbyterian) as a deacon, I made the commitment to bring these principles to my church. Some Christians are really good at visiting people in the hospital and baking cookies for funeral receptions. Others like me can directly help a man with a drinking problem because I have specific experience.

To your point, I always get a chuckle at adult guys who have a church upbringing come out of rehab and immediately join some new trendy church and get re-baptized. I always ask them what, the first time didn't take? They get on an emotional high and then relapse when that pink cloud warm and fuzzy high goes away.

The last 9.5 years of my life have convinced me that prayer and meditation is the softer easier way for me.

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