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Nothing to see here -- just a town declaring a state of emergency before releasing body cam of police shooting!


Beau Vine

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10 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

It is.  My point is that is a major component piece in the struggle to remove bad actors.  To the point about punishment, they are the shield covering LE's actions and give them cover.  Weaken that cover is a huge step in accountability.

Take what happened in Camden, NJ when they fired 100% of the cops, then rehired them on the condition of much weaker union protections.  The results were impressive.  For one, the cost-per-officer was cut IN HALF, allowing them to double their force.  Murders went down.  Crime went down.  

I can read up again on Camden. That's not exactly how I remember Camden occurred.

The Union in that case had negotiated with city leaders very expensive compensation levels which kept the city from hiring more, needed coverage. A union enabled by city and citizens to negotiate a bad contract.

To combat that money constraint, they dissolved the PD and joimed with the county. This allowed them appropriate staffing levels, that were not unionized initially. They have since created a union.

In addition to the financial restructuring, they have instituted a number of community relation reforms. I have seen no indication those reforms would not have been possible under the previous union.

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48 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

i love how yall latched onto the north carolina law about the release of video.

if the cops wanted it out, it would be out. they are obstructing release for a reason. i'll let yall come to your own conclusions.

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/crime/article250901119.html

they don't want it out and are playing hardball. wonder why.

If you read the thread, you'd know that they have petitioned the court for release.

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5 minutes ago, pacman said:

I can read up again on Camden. That's not exactly how I remember Camden occurred.

The Union in that case had negotiated with city leaders very expensive compensation levels which kept the city from hiring more, needed coverage. A union enabled by city and citizens to negotiate a bad contract.

To combat that money constraint, they dissolved the PD and joimed with the county. This allowed them appropriate staffing levels, that were not unionized initially. They have since created a union.

In addition to the financial restructuring, they have instituted a number of community relation reforms. I have seen no indication those reforms would not have been possible under the previous union.

The initial contracts were dissolved and subsequently restructured.  Similar to how AA was able to shed and restructure union contracts after they filed for BK. 

Cost per officer went from like 180K down to 90K+, so they were able to hire more - thus allowing more of a community presence/relations.  AA was able to shed their massive obligations, modernize the fleet, etc.  Just allowed the entity more financial flexibility and agility in make changes.  

Edited by BabaYaga
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/06/16/camden-nj-police-reboot-is-being-misused-debate-over-police-reform/

As an example, I have read it much differently.

3 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

The initial contracts were dissolved and subsequently restructured.  Similar to how AA was able to shed and restructure union contracts after they filed for BK. 

 

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Judge will obviously rule to release the video.  But the question is, which version?  The one where the police are already shooting that's heavily edited?  

That baffles me that a version of events where the "perp" is already being shot at by multiple cops is considered the gospel version.  Great police work, Lou.  "Hey fellas, just cut to the part where I shoot him after he's already dead...that should clear things up for the D.A. and jury toot-sweet."  

Some people do weird shit "Just to make it home to their families at night."  

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2 minutes ago, pacman said:

Unions

Quote

Union contracts had made it all but impossible for the city to run an effective police department. Generous sick time and family-leave provisions resulted in a dysfunctional department with an extraordinary high absentee rate. 

According to the Times, “every day, nearly 30 percent of the force does not show up.” (This rate was at least triple the national average.) 

Contracts were also structured to goose officers’ salaries for simply going to work. A 10 percent bonus was given for working a night shift. A 4 percent bonus was given for working the day shift. Police received an 11 percent increase for working on “an anticrime patrol” or special tactical unit. 

Combined with generous fringe benefits, the average cost was $182,168 per officer. 

“At that monopoly price, poor Camden could afford to employ just 175 cops, and during peak nighttime crime hours only a dozen might be on patrol,”

Quote

The reason police misconduct rises is because unions have proven remarkably effective at shielding officers from disciplinary action through contracts layered with appeals, arbitrators, and reinstatement qualifiers.  

“Overall, 156 of the 178 police union contracts examined in this study — around 88 percent — contained at least one provision that could thwart legitimate disciplinary actions against officers engaged in misconduct,” wrote Stephen Rushin in The Duke Law Journal.

Even in the rare occurrence an officer is fired, the officer often does not stay fired. A 2017 Washington Post study found that departments rehire an astonishing number of police officers fired for misconduct. 

“In Washington, D.C., for instance, 45 percent of the officers fired for misconduct from 2006 to 2017 were rehired on appeal. In Philadelphia, the share is 62 percent. In San Antonio, it’s 70 percent,” the analysis found.

That $182K was cut down to like 90K+, allowing for significantly more officers to be hired.

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Are you surprised to get no disagreement from me?  Then be surprised.
I actually reach an opposite conclusion as to the core issue than Baba and his pals do, though.  We aren't getting shitty government because it's unaccountable to the people.  We're getting shitty government -- whether it be local governments that fellate police unions because you gotta be "strong on law and order," or local governments that waste fortunes on bike lanes and expensive homeless hotels that solve nothing -- BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE ASK FOR AND VOTE FOR.
The problem is not nearly so much that our governments aren't accountable to the will of the voters.  Rather, it's that our local governments are doing exactly what their voters want.  It feels good to point at our gov't leaders and blame them for our shitty outcomes.  But when they are just doing what the voting majority wants them to do....well, we don't like to look at ourselves as the proper folks to blame, because that sucks.  But it has never not been true: we have met the enemy, and he is us.
We have shitty, abuse PDs that are protected from meaningful scrutiny or consequences because WE WANT IT THAT WAY.
We have wasteful bike lanes and homeless policies because WE WANT IT THAT WAY.
The problem with America is Americans.
Agreed. Our cops enforce the laws and police the way WE want them to. If Americans(including minorities) really wanted change, it would already be happening.
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1 hour ago, BabaYaga said:

You don't have to be on the city council when you own the office of the president and control both houses.....

 

1 hour ago, BabaYaga said:

So we can have a top-down, national conversation and sweeping legislative changes about "defunding" the police, but any talk about union changes that protect bad cops have to be the bottom-up.

Good to know...

Do you think that the federal government has the authority to defund police department

 

1 hour ago, BabaYaga said:

Again, you're deflecting.  Nobody is asking about budgetary concerns.  We all know they are local.  But their is ZERO national talk about the direct mechanism that protects bad actors.  Zero.  None.  Nada.  On either side.  This entire conversation is a series of disingenuous talking points until you address the single, direct bureaucratic roadblock that insulates and provides cover for bad actors and makes firing them extremely difficult.  

Flip over the log, the roaches scatter.  Sunlight.  Disinfectant.  Again.  

How exactly do you think you go about getting rid of the police unions?

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1 hour ago, Captainant said:

Bad cops AREN'T fired - they're allowed to resign. Which lets them move along to the next town.

And last time I checked, teachers, bankers, and gov't employees (leaving politicians out since they're typically elected) don't make a habit of murdering minorities and hiding the evidence. But sure, bothsides bothsides thin blue line bothsides bothsides.

How many cops do you think there are in this country?  How many do you think “murder” minorities. 
I can go on about how much I dislike cops with a bad attitude with the best of them but when you use words like “make a habit of murdering minorities” I wonder if you have a grasp on the basic statistics surrounding the problem. 
And I say this as a guy who has zero interest in deferring to cops. 

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21 minutes ago, JBJ said:

If you read the thread, you'd know that they have petitioned the court for release.

who, the sheriff's department?

according to this, they have not yet petitioned the court.

https://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/nc-city-declares-state-of-emergency-before-body-cam-footage-release/JEYNWDGKHJBYVDDI77N5WOVF7Q/

Quote

“Only a judge can release the video,” Wooten said last week. “That’s why I’ve asked the North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation to confirm for me that the releasing of the video will not undermine their investigation. Once I get that confirmation, our county will file a motion in court, hopefully Monday, to have the footage released.”

Under North Carolina law, a judge must generally sign off on the release of law enforcement body camera footage.

looks like the ncsbi is the alleged hold up. still haven't seen evidence that the sheriff's dept has petitioned for the release of the video. their showing the victim's family a heavily truncated and redacted 20 second clip is not a good look either.

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Just now, Wulaw Horn said:

How many cops do you think there are in this country?  How many do you think “murder” minorities. 
I can go on about how much I dislike cops with a bad attitude with the best of them but when you use words like “make a habit of murdering minorities” I wonder if you have a grasp on the basic statistics surrounding the problem. 
And I say this as a guy who has zero interest in deferring to cops. 

I'm not saying that every cop is bad - I'm saying the cops who skirt from one department to another running away from use of force complaints by way of resignation are usually the same bozos we see using excessive force. 

It's a very small fraction of cops who do all the bad shit, but they're also the ones who benefit the most from the lax oversight and accountability the police enjoy

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47 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

It is.  My point is that is a major component piece in the struggle to remove bad actors.  To the point about punishment, they are the shield covering LE's actions and give them cover.  Weaken that cover is a huge step in accountability.

Take what happened in Camden, NJ when they fired 100% of the cops, then rehired them on the condition of much weaker union protections.  The results were impressive.  For one, the cost-per-officer was cut IN HALF, allowing them to double their force.  Murders went down.  Crime went down.  

Wait so you’re pro defunding police? Because that’s what Camden did 

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6 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Wait so you’re pro defunding police? Because that’s what Camden did 

Not exactly - see my earlier article about how Camden attacked the unions and contracts.  They didn't defund.  They completely disband.  They fired 100% of the force, restructured close to two hundred union provisions, and re-hired based upon much more open rules for LE oversight and cost.  

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1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

Not exactly - see my earlier article about how Camden attacked the unions and contracts.  They didn't defund.  They completely disband.  They fired 100% of the force, restructured close to two hundred union provisions, and re-hired based upon much more open rules for LE oversight and cost.  

That’s what defunding is

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6 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Not exactly - see my earlier article about how Camden attacked the unions and contracts.  They didn't defund.  They completely disband.  They fired 100% of the force, restructured close to two hundred union provisions, and re-hired based upon much more open rules for LE oversight and cost.  

if you were to propose those actions as a local politician in texas, what would happen?

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6 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

if you were to propose those actions as a local politician in texas, what would happen?

Let's fuck around and find out.  My guess is you'd get more support than you think.  Depends upon who the message comes from

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1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

Let's fuck around and find out.  My guess is you'd get more support than you think.  Depends upon who the message comes from

Well, you should go propose it or get your GOP reps to propose and stop lecturing us about it. Others have tried and met stiff resistance from somebody (guess who?). 

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1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

Let's fuck around and find out.  My guess is you'd get more support than you think.  Depends upon who the message comes from

Support from whom? Citizens? Right there with you but color me skeptical when it comes to politicians especially with the GOP stance of not being overtly critical of law enforcement. 

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5 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Well, you should go propose it or get your GOP reps to propose and stop lecturing us about it. Others have tried and met stiff resistance from somebody (guess who?). 

Resistance from breaking up public sector union contracts specifically?  Show your work.  

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4 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Resistance from breaking up union contracts specifically?  Show your work.  

Defunding the police does exactly that and that is exactly why it happened in Camden. I know you hate that. It is truth. Here is an article about retaliation for cities that try and follow Camden's lead:

https://www.kxan.com/news/texas-politics/how-gov-greg-abbott-plans-to-punish-texas-cities-that-defund-police/

Again, by all means, get your local GOP reps to  advance bills that would allow cities to breakup police unions. I'd love to see it. 

Edited by Dahobbs
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2 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Defunding the police does exactly that and that is exactly why it happened in Camden. I know you hate that. It is truth. Here is an article about retaliation for cities that try and follow Camden's lead:

https://www.kxan.com/news/texas-politics/how-gov-greg-abbott-plans-to-punish-texas-cities-that-defund-police/

Again, by all means, get your local GOP reps to  advance bills that would allow cities to breakup police unions. I'd love to see it. 

I mean he’s basically telling us all his great ideas without realizing he’s just talking about defunding the police.

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3 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

I mean he’s basically telling us all his great ideas without realizing he’s just talking about defunding the police.

This is disingenuous.  The vast majority of the "defund" conversation has always revolved around a variety of topics ranging from the complete elimination of police departments to rerouting a portion of their budget to other groups such as social workers and removing funding for military-esq items and vehicles. 

Show me the article where the conversation of "defunding" includes the abolishment of public sector unions and not what Austin did in allocating millions away from the cities budget.

  

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2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

This is disingenuous.  The vast majority of the "defund" conversation has always revolved around a variety of topics ranging from the complete elimination of police departments to rerouting a portion of their budget to other groups such as social workers and removing funding for military-esq items and vehicles. 

Show me the article where the conversation of "defunding" includes the abolishment of public sector unions and not what Austin did in allocating millions away from the cities budget.

  

You are the one who used the first city in America to defund their police as the example here guy.

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5 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

You are the one who used the first city in America to defund their police as the example here guy.

De-unionization, not defunding was a central component if not the primary reason for dissolving the city’s police force. Lumping them together is what is disingenuous.  They didn't "de-fund" the force, it's almost twice and big, if not triple.  Nor did they re-allocate any of their budgetary amounts as Austin any many other cities did.  

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37 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Let's fuck around and find out.  My guess is you'd get more support than you think.  Depends upon who the message comes from

spoiler: you would immediately be branded as a...checks notes...socialist, intent on destroying the fabric of America. Someone against LAW AND ORDER!!!

it's that pesky 'false narrative intent on sowing division' thing you're so concerned with elsewhere on the site.

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35 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Resistance from breaking up public sector union contracts specifically?  Show your work.  

Seriously?

V_RABB-GOV-ABBOTT-DEFUNDING-POLICE-PRESS

The governor is LITERALLY sitting behind the banner of the Austin police union.  The president of the union is standing behind him at the righthand corner.  And you think Abbott would be on board with ANYTHING that would weaken the power of that fine organization that simply protects the heroes who serve us, risking their lives ever day to serve us peons?  Seriously?

Come the fuck on, man.

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11 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

De-unionization, not defunding was a central component if not the primary reason for dissolving the city’s police force. Lumping them together is what is disingenuous.  They didn't "de-fund" the force, it's almost twice and big, if not triple.  Nor did they re-allocate any of their budgetary amounts as Austin any many other cities did.  

It is the same fucking thing you goddamn idiot. You defund the old one and fund a new one organization to serve the same purpose. 

Edited by Dahobbs
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Yes, see...but what his proposal presupposes is...what if you did the opposite and defunded the old one and funded a new organization with the same charge?  You see?  You flip that shit.  Topsy-Turvy that mother fucker. 

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22 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

De-unionization, not defunding was a central component if not the primary reason for dissolving the city’s police force. Lumping them together is what is disingenuous.  They didn't "de-fund" the force, it's almost twice and big, if not triple.  Nor did they re-allocate any of their budgetary amounts as Austin any many other cities did.  

That’s the same fucking thing. You clearly don’t understand what defunding the police means.

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2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Are you surprised to get no disagreement from me?  Then be surprised.

I actually reach an opposite conclusion as to the core issue than Baba and his pals do, though.  We aren't getting shitty government because it's unaccountable to the people.  We're getting shitty government -- whether it be local governments that fellate police unions because you gotta be "strong on law and order," or local governments that waste fortunes on bike lanes and expensive homeless hotels that solve nothing -- BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE ASK FOR AND VOTE FOR.

The problem is not nearly so much that our governments aren't accountable to the will of the voters.  Rather, it's that our local governments are doing exactly what their voters want.  It feels good to point at our gov't leaders and blame them for our shitty outcomes.  But when they are just doing what the voting majority wants them to do....well, we don't like to look at ourselves as the proper folks to blame, because that sucks.  But it has never not been true: we have met the enemy, and he is us.

We have shitty, abuse PDs that are protected from meaningful scrutiny or consequences because WE WANT IT THAT WAY.

We have wasteful bike lanes and homeless policies because WE WANT IT THAT WAY.

The problem with America is Americans.

Not surprised at all.  

You and I agree on a lot of things.  One way or the other I think both you and I recognize that a big part of ALL problems are rooted in those in power (And, more importantly, those who keep them there) who skate all the way to one side of the rink or the other.  If you say "both sides" on Surly, you're mocked and attacked.  This was my way of tagging on to what you were saying and saying "both sides" w/o saying it.  But now you've done it Brisket!  I'm outted.

Thanks a lot Bin Laden.

Edited by Cajun
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3 hours ago, fluff said:

This talk reminds me of watching Lone Star Law on Animal Planet.   The one about the Texas Game Wardens.  It is amazing how non confrontational they are and just all around good guys that aren't out to get anyone.  I feel like the entire police system could take notes and if all officers behaved like the Texas Game Wardens, the world would be a much better place.   I know it is definitely a different deal on a different level, but I think there are definitely things to be learned about their general demeanor.

I'm wondering how accurate that is about Texas game wardens though. I've only gotten in the ruckus with any law enforcement three times, all three were game wardens who were absolute freaking jerks. The first time I'm lucky I didn't get my smart ass shot.

Edit: Wild Turkey did bad things to me when I was a young man.

Edited by SHOOTER12
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Just now, SHOOTER12 said:

I'm wondering how accurate that is about Texas game wardens though. I've only gotten in the ruckus with any law enforcement three times, all three were game wardens who were absolute freaking jerks. The first time I'm lucky I didn't get my smart ass shot.

Curious - were they kind of young?

Every shitty interaction I've had w/a game warden has been with a 20 something lugging some kind of giant chip on his shoulder.  Conversely, the older ones have  all  been cool as fuck.

Got checked out by a GW out on Canyon Lake last week.  Female on a skiff who was very easy on the eyes and very nice.  I was very disappointed she didn't "board" me.

/csb

 

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19 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Show me on any defunding proposals the agenda to break up public sector unions.  

please try to keep your union busting boner for either CR or 6th St. Journal - there's people trying to talk about police brutality and lack of accountability in here.

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Is it weird that people against public sector unions really like police unions?  I fucking hate all of them and none of them should be allowed, but that's just me.  

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18 minutes ago, Cajun said:

Curious - were they kind of young?

Every shitty interaction I've had w/a game warden has been with a 20 something lugging some kind of giant chip on his shoulder.  Conversely, the older ones have  all  been cool as fuck.

Got checked out by a GW out on Canyon Lake last week.  Female on a skiff who was very easy on the eyes and very nice.  I was very disappointed she didn't "board" me.

/csb

 

The first time was an older game warden about 50 at one of the lakes out by sulfur springs.  Two guys I worked with,  will call them Jack and John and I we're not able to go in for a holiday in the middle of the week so John's wife and new baby came up and we all went to the lake. Jack and John are both fishing while the wife took care of the kid and I was taking care of a bottle of wild turkey on one of the piers. The game warden was in his boat on the next Pier over and had been over there three or four hours just watching the stuff as it happen. Jack quit fishing cuz he got frustrated that he could not catch anything and almost immediately John started catching one after the other. Jack had leaned his rod and reel up against the rail on the pier and asked me to hand it to him which I did. The game warden immediately turned his lights over and brought his boat over to our Pier asking for fishing licenses. Of course Jack and John showed him theirs and when he asked for mine I told him I did not have one that I wasn't fishing. Then he belligerently stated that he saw me fishing and I called him a damn liar. I told him that I had never fished in my life why in the hell would I start now? He told me if I went up to the bait shop and bought a fishing license he wouldn't ticket me and I basically told him to get f*****. So he stood up on his boat and put one foot up on the pier like he was going to step up on the pier and I told him if he stepped up on that pier I'd knock his fat ass clear back over the boat and into the water. Of course he got all flustered nearly fell on his own by then Jack and John grabbed me and started pulling me back towards where the cars were parked and the game warden told themthat they better get my smart ass out of there and not come back. Fun times in my youth.

Edited by SHOOTER12
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1 hour ago, hayden_horn said:

looks like the ncsbi is the alleged hold up. still haven't seen evidence that the sheriff's dept has petitioned for the release of the video. their showing the victim's family a heavily truncated and redacted 20 second clip is not a good look either.

The county DA office filed a petition.  I assume that is who the LEA would go through. 

The city did as well as did a media group.  It doesn't look like anyone else has, but I'm not staring at the court docket only reading news.

The state hasn't filed one yet to my knowledge, and I'd bet they'll be the ones to argue to withhold certain things that might hinder an investigation.

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7 minutes ago, SHOOTER12 said:

The first time was an older game warden about 50 at one of the lakes out by sulfur springs.  Two guys I worked with,  will call them Jack and John and I we're not able to go in for a holiday in the middle of the week so John's wife and new baby came up and we all went to the lake. Jack and John are both fishing while the wife took care of the kid and I was taking care of a bottle of wild turkey on one of the piers. The game warden was in his boat on the next Pier over and had been over there three or four hours just watching the stuff as it happen. Jack quit fishing cuz he got frustrated that he could not catch anything and almost immediately John started catching one after the other. Jack had leaned his rod and reel up against the rail on the pier and asked me to hand it to him which I did. The game warden immediately turned his lights over and brought his boat over to our Pier asking for fishing licenses. Of course Jack and John showed him theirs and when he asked for mine I told him I did not have one that I wasn't fishing. Then he belligerently stated that he saw me fishing and I called him a damn liar. I told him that I had never fished in my life why in the hell would I start now? He told me if I went up to the bait shop and bought a fishing license he wouldn't ticket me and I basically told him to get f*****. So he stood up on his boat and put one foot up on the pier like he was going to step up on the pier and I told him if he stepped up on that pier I'd knock his fat ass clear back over the boat and into the water. Of course he got all flustered nearly fell on his own by then Jack and John grabbed me and started pulling me back towards where the cars were parked and the game warden told themthat they better get my smart ass out of there and not come back. Fun times in my youth.

tell me you're white without telling me you're white.

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