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Posted
2 minutes ago, Zepol87 said:

Great job on getting them to agree to a ceasefire after they completely obliterated the whole damn place. This is fucking stupid

And with basically no promise for any meaningful withdrawal and no mention of West Bank settlements. It's a piece of shit deal that will amount to nothing and the killing will just resume as planned.

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Posted
9 minutes ago, Zepol87 said:

Great job on getting them to agree to a ceasefire after they completely obliterated the whole damn place. This is fucking stupid

Case in point

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Posted

Rafah is critical to bringing in aid. But, the three checkpoints with IDF and International security will result in a lot of idle time for those trucks. 

Big question. So the Arab states are going to send in peacekeepers. Where the fuck do they live? How do they get resupplied? 

Fun times. 

Posted
2 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Rafah is critical to bringing in aid. But, the three checkpoints with IDF and International security will result in a lot of idle time for those trucks. 

Big question. So the Arab states are going to send in peacekeepers. Where the fuck do they live? How do they get resupplied? 

Fun times. 

I'm sure Donny will be right on that one.

Posted
41 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Rafah is critical to bringing in aid. But, the three checkpoints with IDF and International security will result in a lot of idle time for those trucks. 

Big question. So the Arab states are going to send in peacekeepers. Where the fuck do they live? How do they get resupplied? 

Fun times. 

No more bullets guys but fuck your food and shelter still 

Posted

One of the reasons Japan and West Germany (and the rest of occupied Western Europe) became staunch allies after WWII - and stepped back from their generational resentments - was that the USA poured billions of dollars over quite a few years into rebuilding them and reintegrating their economies into the Western economic structure. Has anyone heard of any honest plans for that in Gaza, Trump Gaza Beach Resorts aside? Because if it doesn't happen, ain't nothing ever gonna change there. "Hey, we're not shooting at you any longer, enjoy the rubble!" It needs to be the West as well to build any sort of trust; middle eastern petrodollars are fine but if we want them to think there might be a better future, there needs to be hope that they can join that better future. 

(and oh yeah, the West Bank is still a thing)

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Posted

If you're whole country looks like Hiroshima, I don't a Marshall Plan rebuild will do the job. Just moving the rubble would eat up that kind of budget. 

At best, Gaza will be made barely livable as late as possible to encourage Gazans to leave.

I think I saw that humanitarian organizations are striving to get 400 trucks of supplies into Gaza. 400 hundred trucks. That's how hard Israel is waging this obliteration. Four hundred trucks will touch hardly any of the starving, diseased, dying populace. 

If Israel were 100% unified behind this campaign, I'd find it hard to object to bombing them into a similar state as Gaza to make an example of the wages of tyranny. But, you know, we're not those guys anymore. We blow up civilian boats on the sea. 

Hey! We're a pirate nation! 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

If you're whole country looks like Hiroshima, I don't a Marshall Plan rebuild will do the job. Just moving the rubble would eat up that kind of budget. 

At best, Gaza will be made barely livable as late as possible to encourage Gazans to leave.

I think I saw that humanitarian organizations are striving to get 400 trucks of supplies into Gaza. 400 hundred trucks. That's how hard Israel is waging this obliteration. Four hundred trucks will touch hardly any of the starving, diseased, dying populace. 

If Israel were 100% unified behind this campaign, I'd find it hard to object to bombing them into a similar state as Gaza to make an example of the wages of tyranny. But, you know, we're not those guys anymore. We blow up civilian boats on the sea. 

Hey! We're a pirate nation! 

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The dilemma in the future as I see it is now, a) you have a generation of Palestinians in the future full of resentment and nothing to lose willing to die where life is cheap and b) Palestinians should also understand what a consequence from Isreal looks like for any repeat of anything that even remotely resembles a 10/7. 

Both those ideas live in tension to themselves. That seems to be a pretty big problem for the region.

Edited by Vegas64
Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

The dilemma in the future as I see it is now, a) you have a generation of Palestinians in the future full of resentment and nothing to lose willing to die where life is cheap and b) Palestinians should also understand what a consequence from Isreal looks like for any repeat of anything that even remotely resembles a 10/7. 

Both those ideas live in tension to themselves. That seems to be a pretty big problem for the region.

You have to flood the zone and overwhelm them with multi-generational opportunity that the lives of their children or their peers in the future can be better. It's certainly an uphill battle. There are no or few posters on this board that would suffer their children and families beings wiped from the earth without their hearts hardening. Maybe that's projection, but you wipe my family from this earth, you destroy my place of worship...man you just ain't winning me back. Ever. I am not a big enough human and my faith is not strong enough at this point for that shit. I am going to have a hardened heart until I die. That is the battle. Against the basic human nature. Something has to change. Start with the reality on the ground and self-determination, basics like water and land rights. Go from there. An uphill battle, they will likely never get to the top. 

Edited by Anastasis
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Posted
44 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

You have to flood the zone and overwhelm them with multi-generational opportunity that the lives of their children or their peers in the future can be better. It's certainly an uphill battle. There are no or few posters on this board that would suffer their children and families beings wiped from the earth without their hearts hardening. Maybe that's projection, but you wipe my family from this earth, you destroy my place of worship...man you just ain't winning me back. Ever. I am not a big enough human and my faith is not strong enough at this point for that shit. I am going to have a hardened heart until I die. That is the battle. Against the basic human nature. Something has to change. Start with the reality on the ground and self-determination, basics like water and land rights. Go from there. An uphill battle, they will likely never get to the top. 

Makes sense and I agree. Not sure that Israel will be interested in that. Maybe they hold their nose and do it, not for the benefit of Gaza and Palestinians, but for their own benefit. If you are a hardline Israeli, what you are essentially saying that Israel didn't take the axe to the roots and that the weeds will grow back (in their view).

There was a point in man's history when we made the moral and ethical leap from whole people groups wiping out other people groups and they would be no more to genocide being an atrocity and an evil. I wonder if that was when it became something that others in the world had to bear witness to. Ironically maybe that was when another group was trying to eliminate the hebrew people, and yet here we are....

Posted
1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

You have to flood the zone and overwhelm them with multi-generational opportunity that the lives of their children or their peers in the future can be better. It's certainly an uphill battle. There are no or few posters on this board that would suffer their children and families beings wiped from the earth without their hearts hardening. Maybe that's projection, but you wipe my family from this earth, you destroy my place of worship...man you just ain't winning me back. Ever. I am not a big enough human and my faith is not strong enough at this point for that shit. I am going to have a hardened heart until I die. That is the battle. Against the basic human nature. Something has to change. Start with the reality on the ground and self-determination, basics like water and land rights. Go from there. An uphill battle, they will likely never get to the top. 

Yes. The idea that the brutality of Israel will make their victims tame is the same idea that leads us into long bloody struggles in someone else's country. The flaw in that is not recognizing what you do: people will react the same way I would. Kill my friends and family? You've made an enemy who is as brave, violent, and determined as you are.

I don't see Gaza ever coming back. Pretty soon after the bloodbath/depredation/starvation campaign is over, the irony of a Jewish State doing this to another people will be razor keen.

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

Not sure that Israel will be interested in that.

They are not. That is intertwined with both Talmudism and Zionism. And to be frank, I do not see a path for that kind of reconciliation through Islamist shit either. Unfortunately, at least from my perspective, both have wiped out most remnants of the worldview and theology capable of bringing reconciliation to the middle east.

Edited by Anastasis
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Posted
They are not. That is intertwined with both Talmudism and Zionism. And to be frank, I do not see a path for that kind of reconciliation through Islamist shit either. Unfortunately, at least from my perspective, both have wiped out most remnants of the worldview and theology capable of bringing reconciliation to the middle east.

This. Anyone who purports to be in favor of long-term peace in the region should brave themselves for that reality. The number of people capable of working for a peaceful coexistence has gone way down. The number of people whose hearts are hardened to a near-genocidal level of hatred has skyrocketed.
The future in the region is likely very, very dark.
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Posted
3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

They are not. That is intertwined with both Talmudism and Zionism. And to be frank, I do not see a path for that kind of reconciliation through Islamist shit either. Unfortunately, at least from my perspective, both have wiped out most remnants of the worldview and theology capable of bringing reconciliation to the middle east.

Agree with you on that. And interestingingly, I had sort of pegged you as muslim or muslim adjacent (second/third generation maybe) based on your posts tbh.

Posted
Just now, Vegas64 said:

Agree with you on that. And interestingingly, I had sort of pegged you as muslim or muslim adjacent (second/third generation maybe) based on your posts tbh.

You are dumb. 

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Posted
1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:


This. Anyone who purports to be in favor of long-term peace in the region should brave themselves for that reality. The number of people capable of working for a peaceful coexistence has gone way down. The number of people whose hearts are hardened to a near-genocidal level of hatred has skyrocketed.
The future in the region is likely very, very dark.

Quite dated at this point, but this use to be a common book rec from me. 

https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Brothers-Dramatic-Palestinian-Christian/dp/0800793218

Palestinian Christian author. 

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Posted
14 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The future in the region is likely very, very dark.

It's always been dark. Which is good enough reason to not pump billions of dollars of arms by the C130 into the region. But see, Jesus apparently needs a well lit runway in J town. And Western Europe has always been certainly inclined to let others shoulder the penitence for their genocidal sins. 

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Posted
9 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

This. Anyone who purports to be in favor of long-term peace in the region should brave themselves for that reality. The number of people capable of working for a peaceful coexistence has gone way down. The number of people whose hearts are hardened to a near-genocidal level of hatred has skyrocketed.
The future in the region is likely very, very dark.

Yet it will be viewed by more than half of this nation as a foreign policy victory for Trump.  The long-term cost of 70K dead and a region destroyed simply won't be factored in.

It's a ceasefire.  Therefore good. That's a news item I can quickly digest.

Next issue?

Posted
11 hours ago, Anastasis said:

There are no or few posters on this board that would suffer their children and families beings wiped from the earth without their hearts hardening. Maybe that's projection, but you wipe my family from this earth, you destroy my place of worship...man you just ain't winning me back. Ever. 

And, of course, there's the obvious centuries of religious and turf wars between Arabs and Jews already in the Palestinian DNA.  This ceasefire ain't doing shit, certainly not in the long term, when the next generations of Arabs who lived through or watched Gaza get completely obliterated will make revenge against Israel their lives' mission.

Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, South Austin said:

And, of course, there's the obvious centuries of religious and turf wars between Arabs and Jews already in the Palestinian DNA

This is an incredibly stupid post, none of this is real and you should be embarrassed to post some racist ass garbage like this. Please, think before you fucking post. I know you're not a racist person based on your body of work on this board, but this is trash. You need to go the fuck back to school if this is what you believe.

e: Western brains being wired this way from decades of agitprop is literally the #1 reason this conflict exists as it does today. Be better.

Edited by Brian Fantana
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Posted
2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

This is an incredibly stupid post, none of this is real and you should be embarrassed to post some racist ass garbage like this. Please, think before you fucking post. I know you're not a racist person based on your body of work on this board, but this is trash. You need to go the fuck back to school if this is what you believe.

e: Western brains being wired this way from decades of agitprop is literally the #1 reason this conflict exists as it does today. Be better.

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Posted
1 minute ago, South Austin said:

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Like, I'm sorry for being a dick about it, I really do like you as a poster, but this kind of shit just can't be tolerated anymore. It is baby-brained, orientalist bullshit that is completely ahistorical and oversimplifies thousands of years of history into a take that is just plain wrong.

I'm not saying that instances of violence and persecution haven't happened throughout history, but takes like the one you just put out there ignore the vast majority of history between Arab and Jewish populations that is mostly marked with long periods of peaceful coexistence, cooperation, and cultural exchange. The current conflict is in no way representative of the overwhelming majority of history and was 100% driven by the rise of Zionism and Arab nationalism in the 20th century.

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Posted
Just now, Brian Fantana said:

Like, I'm sorry for being a dick about it, I really do like you as a poster, but this kind of shit just can't be tolerated anymore. It is baby-brained, orientalist bullshit that is completely ahistorical and oversimplifies thousands of years of history into a take that is just plain wrong.

I'm not saying that instances of violence and persecution haven't happened throughout history, but takes like the one you just put out there ignore the vast majority of history between Arab and Jewish populations that is mostly marked with long periods of peaceful coexistence, cooperation, and cultural exchange. The current conflict is in no way representative of the overwhelming majority of history and was 100% driven by the rise of Zionism and Arab nationalism in the 20th century.

I appreciate your post, and that my response was grossly oversimplified and does not recognize, as you point out, periods of peaceful coexistence.  

But I still can't help but think that there will be Palestinians who survived the destruction of Gaza and who will seek violent retribution against Israel.  And I don't think I'm alone or unreasonable for thinking that.

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Posted
2 minutes ago, South Austin said:

I appreciate your post, and that my response was grossly oversimplified and does not recognize, as you point out, periods of peaceful coexistence.  

But I still can't help but think that there will be Palestinians who survived the destruction of Gaza and who will seek violent retribution against Israel.  And I don't think I'm alone or unreasonable for thinking that.

Much more reasonable and I don’t think anyone could disagree that there will be a desire for vengeance. Cycles of violence fucking suck. 

But when you get a chance, read up on the history of this conflict a bit. It’s really only about a century old. This notion of some perpetual clash of cultures stretching back millennia is a propagandist canard. 

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Posted
7 minutes ago, South Austin said:

But I still can't help but think that there will be Palestinians who survived the destruction of Gaza and who will seek violent retribution against Israel.  And I don't think I'm alone or unreasonable for thinking that.

I think we all agree on that, but it is based more upon recent events, see ana above, than historical.

Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Western brains being wired this way from decades of agitprop is literally the #1 reason this conflict exists as it does today. Be better.

Okay, help me out on this one.  Western views on the history of Arab/Israeli conflict is the number one reason for Arab/Israeli violence?  Like, if Western thought on that history was more accurate as you advocate, there would be no conflict?

Serious question, as I do and have appreciated your posts on this thread.

Edited by South Austin
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Posted
22 minutes ago, South Austin said:

I appreciate your post, and that my response was grossly oversimplified and does not recognize, as you point out, periods of peaceful coexistence.  

But I still can't help but think that there will be Palestinians who survived the destruction of Gaza and who will seek violent retribution against Israel.  And I don't think I'm alone or unreasonable for thinking that.

No not at all, I completely agree with you there.

Posted
5 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

Much more reasonable and I don’t think anyone could disagree that there will be a desire for vengeance. Cycles of violence fucking suck. 

But when you get a chance, read up on the history of this conflict a bit. It’s really only about a century old. This notion of some perpetual clash of cultures stretching back millennia is a propagandist canard. 

South Austin did us a favor by misspeaking. There were Jews and Muslims co-existing in Palestine up until the moment Israel was created and imposed on the area by the West. The rest is Greek tragedy cycle of revenge. Jews move to land promised them by people that don't own it. They are attacked by people already there. They naturally defend themselves. Revenge begets killing after killing after killing. 

Then you have to portray it for Americans as good versus evil. But that's a tragedy for another day.

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Posted
4 minutes ago, South Austin said:

Okay, help me out on this one.  Western views on the history of Arab/Israeli conflict is the number one reason for Arab/Israeli violence?  Like, if Western thought on that history was more accurate as you advocate, there would be no conflict?

It more or less starts with the Entente Powers from WWI fucking with the Ottoman Empire to secure oil fields, and destroying the existing tribal and national boundaries and redrawing them to whatever was most advantagous to their colonial interests. That's what upset the balance in the region, and set the table for Israel's recognition as a State post-WWII. Think "Lawrence of Arabia", but literally that. The Shah of Iran doesn't happen without that, and Iran's generally antagonistic stance to the West is a direct consequence of that chain of events.

Setting the goalpost at "no more conflict ever" is unrealistic, but there certainly wouldn't be carpet bombing hospitals and religious wars if it weren't for the concerted Western effort to proselytze the region over and over and over and over again.

(imo)

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Posted
7 minutes ago, South Austin said:

Okay, help me out on this one.  Western views on the history of Arab/Israeli conflict is the number one reason for Arab/Israeli violence?  Like, if Western thought on that history was more accurate as you advocate, there would be no conflict?

Serious question, as I do and have appreciated your posts on this thread.

Yeah, so what I mean by that is that the current conflict is largely driven by American money and weapons. The average American (or Westerner in general) knows dick all about what is going on, the history behind it, and our role in perpetuating it, which is the main reason why the conflict persists as it does. Without our complete capitulation and unlimited money, Israel could not afford to do what it's doing, straight up. There would still be conflict, but it would be very, very different.

And that's only speaking of America, there are a number of Western nations that are complicit in the same or similar ways. Germany, ironically enough, is also a major enabler of Israel's bad behavior, for obvious reasons. 

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Posted
3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Yeah, so what I mean by that is that the current conflict is largely driven by American money and weapons. The average American (or Westerner in general) knows dick all about what is going on, the history behind it, and our role in perpetuating it, which is the main reason why the conflict persists as it does. Without our complete capitulation and unlimited money, Israel could not afford to do what it's doing, straight up. There would still be conflict, but it would be very, very different.

And that's only speaking of America, there are a number of Western nations that are complicit in the same or similar ways. Germany, ironically enough, is also a major enabler of Israel's bad behavior, for obvious reasons. 

Okay, that seems different than the comment I was asking about, but yes, I do understand and completely agree with that.  

Posted
Just now, South Austin said:

Okay, that seems different than the comment I was asking about, but yes, I do understand and completely agree with that.  

Yeah I suppose my original comment was unclear, I was just referring to Western powers enabling/funding the current cycle of violence.

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Posted
9 minutes ago, South Austin said:

Okay, help me out on this one.  Western views on the history of Arab/Israeli conflict is the number one reason for Arab/Israeli violence?  Like, if Western thought on that history was more accurate as you advocate, there would be no conflict?

Serious question, as I do and have appreciated your posts on this thread.

Semites bicker and fight in that region for numerous reasons and always have. Blood feuds. Bouts of local imperialism. All garden variety stuff found across the world. Throw in religion and you have Sunni vs Shia vs Jewish vs sects I cannot name. 

I also cannot state anything about sustained religious hatred in the area, because I only have a notion about that. I sorta get the feeling that sometimes you can point to religious conflict because there happens to be such a distinction between parties opposing each other for other reasons. In N. Ireland, the fight did not start as a religious war; it was invader vs native.

Anyway, that's my mild grasp of MidEast history.

Posted
1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

Yeah I suppose my original comment was unclear, I was just referring to Western powers enabling/funding the current cycle of violence.

Yes.  And to put it more bluntly, when you look at the photos of Gaza's destruction, there is a fair amount of blood on America's hands.  We can't just point the finger at Bibi or Hamas.

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Posted

But we all agree that the Babylonian captivity really wasn't all that bad as "captivities" go, right?

And "Babylon," by David Gray, was a pretty damned fine song.

Posted
5 minutes ago, South Austin said:

Yes.  And to put it more bluntly, when you look at the photos of Gaza's destruction, there is a fair amount of blood on America's hands.  We can't just point the finger at Bibi or Hamas.

literally F35's dropping American bombs into Gaza. No disagreement there whatsoever. We didn't start the fire, but we sure haven't been trying to fight it.

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Posted
4 minutes ago, Captainant said:

We didn't start the fire, but we sure haven't been trying to fight it.

Did you really need to put that song in my head on loop this morning?

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Posted
11 minutes ago, South Austin said:

It makes up for my inartful and racist depiction of the historical underpinnings of conflicts in the Middle East.

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Posted
15 hours ago, flatdawgs said:

One of the reasons Japan and West Germany (and the rest of occupied Western Europe) became staunch allies after WWII - and stepped back from their generational resentments - was that the USA poured billions of dollars over quite a few years into rebuilding them and reintegrating their economies into the Western economic structure. Has anyone heard of any honest plans for that in Gaza, Trump Gaza Beach Resorts aside? Because if it doesn't happen, ain't nothing ever gonna change there. "Hey, we're not shooting at you any longer, enjoy the rubble!" It needs to be the West as well to build any sort of trust; middle eastern petrodollars are fine but if we want them to think there might be a better future, there needs to be hope that they can join that better future. 

(and oh yeah, the West Bank is still a thing)

A necessary condition for Marshall Plan and Japan reconstruction included occupation by Allies, complete elimination of their pre-war governments, rewriting of their constitutions, and total disarmament: reconstruction on total Allied terms. And Marshall Plan/reconstruction in this was was more than direct USG funds, it signaled an environment that could receive private investment and activity both foreign and domestic. 
 

That’s why a post-Gaza that doesn’t combine some form of Palestinian entity with the total exclusion of Hamas isn’t a slogan but a necessity. Things can’t be done long-term via complex international org and NGOs; those are a bandaid. There’s no states outside of the ME or multinational firms that will be interested in investment in a political entity where Hamas plays a role in post-war governance. For that matter, any local capital will continue to flee and seek safer harbor. Until that nut is cracked you’re going to be hard-pressed to envision a meaningful reconstruction scheme. It also doesn’t help that most of Europe is rightfully going to be more focused on the massive costs ans opportunities to eventually reconstruct and reintegrate Ukraine. 

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