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Mo Horn

2020 General MLB off-season

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11 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

You sound like an Astros fan

You sound like someone who rationalizes cheating by your team while moralizing about cheating by another team.

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I cannot wait for a big signing or trade so Dennison will end his one-man crusade on here. 

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3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

You sound like someone who rationalizes cheating by your team while moralizing about cheating by another team.

Nope

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6 minutes ago, ss13 said:

I cannot wait for a big signing or trade so Dennison will end his one-man crusade on here. 

It'll happen when the Red Sox get hammered and it becomes more and more apparent that this isn't an Astros issue, it's an MLB issue.

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$19.5M still owed. Never good when you’re DFA’d for the immortal Nick Martini. Or when you beat women. 

Quote

The Phillies announced Tuesday that center fielder Odubel Herrera has been designated for assignment. His 40-man roster spot will go to Nick Martini, whom the Phillies have claimed off waivers from the Reds.

Not long ago, such a move would’ve been unthinkable for the Phils, who extended Herrera on a five-year, $30.5MM deal spanning the 2017-21 seasons. However, Herrera sat out the the final 85 games of the 2019 season under a domestic violence suspension, and even when he was on the field in 2019, he failed to produce at the plate or with the glove. After batting .281/.325/.452 and drawing strong defensive marks across the board as recently as 2017, Herrera turned in an awful .222/.288/.341 line in 2019 with below-average marks from Ultimate Zone Rating, Defensive Runs Saved and Outs Above Average.

While Herrera has played poorly in each of the past two seasons, he might well have been given another chance in 2020 were it not for the charges levied against him and the subsequent suspension. He’s still owed a hefty $19.5MM under that aforementioned extension, but the Phils are apparently willing to eat the remainder of that contract to cut ties with Herrera.

 

Edited by ss13

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1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

You sound like someone who rationalizes cheating by your team while moralizing about cheating by another team.

Who is his team anyways?  I'm assuming Cleveland, who is probably also going to get a visit from Manfred.

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1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

It'll happen when the Red Sox get hammered and it becomes more and more apparent that this isn't an Astros issue, it's an MLB issue.

Very aggy

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Many will dismiss the accomplishments of Astros players in 2017, despite evidence that suggests that their scheme didn't really seem to result in any noticeable improvement, because it is the narrative they crave. That's fine. 


The Astros cheated as a team in the playoffs and got caught. That’s not a narrative, it’s a fact.

Maybe other teams cheated too, especially Boston, and hopefully they will get punished accordingly. But so far the Astros were the ones who were caught because their cheating scheme was stupid as hell.

People will dismiss the 2017 Astros accomplishments not because of a narrative but because they are cheaters and that’s how sports fans view cheaters. The Astros are not unique in this. Ask Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Lance Armstrong, Floyd Landis, Marion Jones, the 1994 Aggies, the 2004 Trojans, the 2012 Buckeyes....

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23 minutes ago, wild_turkey said:

The Astros cheated as a team in the playoffs and got caught. That’s not a narrative, it’s a fact.

Maybe other teams cheated too, especially Boston, and hopefully they will get punished accordingly. But so far the Astros were the ones who were caught because their cheating scheme was stupid as hell.

People will dismiss the 2017 Astros accomplishments not because of a narrative but because they are cheaters and that’s how sports fans view cheaters. The Astros are not unique in this. Ask Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Lance Armstrong, Floyd Landis, Marion Jones, the 1994 Aggies, the 2004 Trojans, the 2012 Buckeyes....

 

The "narrative" in question isn't about the team cheating; as you state, that is factual. And I totally agree that their method was stunningly stupid. 

I'm talking about Altuve being the best player in the league that year. Or Springer's or Bregman's actual ability/value. There is a "narrative" that some buy into that these players aren't actually as good as their performance indicated, or that their more recent accomplishments should be dismissed. That's unsupported by evidence. 

That the team broke rules is not a narrative; that it appears to have made much difference in measurable performance and is the only reason those particular players  produced that season, or in prior or subsequent seasons, is narrative. 

Edited by Hank Chinaski

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50 minutes ago, wild_turkey said:

The Astros cheated as a team in the playoffs and got caught. That’s not a narrative, it’s a fact.

Maybe other teams cheated too, especially Boston, and hopefully they will get punished accordingly. But so far the Astros were the ones who were caught because their cheating scheme was stupid as hell.

People will dismiss the 2017 Astros accomplishments not because of a narrative but because they are cheaters and that’s how sports fans view cheaters. The Astros are not unique in this. Ask Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Lance Armstrong, Floyd Landis, Marion Jones, the 1994 Aggies, the 2004 Trojans, the 2012 Buckeyes....

 

Most people will forget about it.

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2 hours ago, ss13 said:

I cannot wait for a big signing or trade so Dennison will end his one-man crusade on here. 

donaldson.  4 years, twins.  no #s yet.

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1 hour ago, wild_turkey said:

 


The Astros cheated as a team in the playoffs and got caught. That’s not a narrative, it’s a fact.

Maybe other teams cheated too, especially Boston, and hopefully they will get punished accordingly. But so far the Astros were the ones who were caught because their cheating scheme was stupid as hell.

People will dismiss the 2017 Astros accomplishments not because of a narrative but because they are cheaters and that’s how sports fans view cheaters. The Astros are not unique in this. Ask Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Lance Armstrong, Floyd Landis, Marion Jones, the 1994 Aggies, the 2004 Trojans, the 2012 Buckeyes....

 

Armstrong is an interesting one to include. Everyone hates him because he was a tremendous asshole, but as for his Tour de France victories most people still consider him the winner because they know he cheated to win over a field that was all cheating. So that analogy doesn't mean what you think it means.

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33 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Most people will forget about it.

No, I don't think so.  They will be branded, and that stink will stick with them, fair or not.

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3 hours ago, Hank Chinaski said:

What if team trainers were involved? What if managers and GMs and owners all knew what was happening? And sportswriters, and the commissioner, etc. Come on, everyone knew and everyone was complicit. Everyone acknowledges this at this point.

The Astros broke the rule and they got punished - that's fine. And the punishment was hardly light...it was pretty severe. Other teams broke the rule too, and we'll see what happens.

Many will dismiss the accomplishments of Astros players in 2017, despite evidence that suggests that their scheme didn't really seem to result in any noticeable improvement, because it is the narrative they crave. That's fine. 

 

good effort, keep trying

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20 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

i'm assuming team option?

Tweet's not embedding right now, but... 

Quote

Josh Donaldson’s deal with the Minnesota Twins will pay him $84 million over the first four years and includes a $16 million club option with an $8 million buyout. In total, it’s $92 million guaranteed with a chase to go to $104 million if Donaldson hits escalators on the option.

 

Edited by ss13

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7 minutes ago, ss13 said:

Tweet's not embedding right now, but... 

 

thx on a conf call and didn't look it up.

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What if team trainers were involved? What if managers and GMs and owners all knew what was happening? And sportswriters, and the commissioner, etc. Come on, everyone knew and everyone was complicit. Everyone acknowledges this at this point.

The Astros broke the rule and they got punished - that's fine. And the punishment was hardly light...it was pretty severe. Other teams broke the rule too, and we'll see what happens.

Many will dismiss the accomplishments of Astros players in 2017, despite evidence that suggests that their scheme didn't really seem to result in any noticeable improvement, because it is the narrative they crave. That's fine. 

 

 

 

So they went with all that effort to steal signs and bang trash cans because it didn’t really help them? Knowing it would be deep shit if they got caught ? Knowing what kind of pitch is coming is not a huge advantage ?Lol

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didn't someone post a chart showing the strikeout rate differentials between 2016 and 2017?  something like a 4% net differential year on year (at minute maid they struck out 8% less , on the road they struck out 4% less.  if you consider the road #s as a pure baseline taking in to consideration player growth/new talent/no cheating and subtract that from the minute maid #s that 4% suggests the rough effectiveness of the sign stealing).  and on a plot chart the astros were a huge outlier, no one else came close to reducing their strikeouts year on year. 

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It just funny that none of this goes public if mike Fiers wasn’t a tattletale lol. Hinch would still have a job. Ludhow would still have a job. This title wouldn’t be tainted for the rest of time. But no. Mike Fiers had to “do the right thing” lol. I feel like teams might think twice about signing him now, no?

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Maybe someday you’ll come home to some dude banging your wife one day and he’ll respond “don’t care had sex”

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50 minutes ago, Quagmire said:

 

 

So they went with all that effort to steal signs and bang trash cans because it didn’t really help them? Knowing it would be deep shit if they got caught ? Knowing what kind of pitch is coming is not a huge advantage ?Lol

They hit better as a team in 2019 than in 2017. 

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14 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

It just funny that none of this goes public if mike Fiers wasn’t a tattletale lol. Hinch would still have a job. Ludhow would still have a job. This title wouldn’t be tainted for the rest of time. But no. Mike Fiers had to “do the right thing” lol. I feel like teams might think twice about signing him now, no?

Alec Cora would still have a job if the Astros players weren't such tattletales.  

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21 minutes ago, Quagmire said:

Maybe someday you’ll come home to some dude banging your wife one day and he’ll respond “don’t care had sex”

emoji3.png

If she feels the need to get the D elsewhere, have at it

 

lance.jpg
upload image

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21 hours ago, David Dennison said:

And I'm fine with that.

Holy hell is all I can say. You are okay with cheating so long as it is a means to an end. You might should never post in the CR again.  

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9 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

Serious question -- what does "vacate the title" even mean? 

If Bud Selig was still in charge it would mean the next All Star Game would decide who gets the 2017 World Series title.

Edited by clapclapclap

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5 hours ago, David Dennison said:

Most people will forget about it.

No they won’t. No one forgot about the steroid guys, no one will forget about this either. It’ll forever be a footnote tied to that championship.

I’ll certainly never forget all the shit I got on here for saying Judge should’ve been MVP over Altuve that year. I’m sure Judge could’ve gotten a higher BA if he knew what pitch was coming like Altuve did. Watch the entire Astros offense take a noticeable dip in performance next year.

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8 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

Holy hell is all I can say. You are okay with cheating so long as it is a means to an end. You might should never post in the CR again.  

No, he fits in there perfectly. 

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8 hours ago, Helobious said:

No they won’t. No one forgot about the steroid guys, no one will forget about this either. It’ll forever be a footnote tied to that championship.

I’ll certainly never forget all the shit I got on here for saying Judge should’ve been MVP over Altuve that year. I’m sure Judge could’ve gotten a higher BA if he knew what pitch was coming like Altuve did. Watch the entire Astros offense take a noticeable dip in performance next year.

It's crazy to me how Yankee fans are jumping headfirst into the "WOE IS US" pool considering their history with Carlos Beltran.  Seems a bit premature.

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8 hours ago, Helobious said:

Watch the entire Astros offense take a noticeable dip in performance next year.

We already have this data.  The numbers are better in 2019 after they stopped cheating (and got Uncle Mike).  Which brings me to my greatest annoyance with this whole thing.  The Astros were good enough to win without doing it.  

It all got started with Beltran trying to get out of a slump, and spread from there.  In a team culture that emphasizes exploiting each little advantage to its max, it’s not hard to see how that happened.  Doesn’t excuse it, but it’s understandable.  

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9 hours ago, Helobious said:

No they won’t. No one forgot about the steroid guys, no one will forget about this either. It’ll forever be a footnote tied to that championship.

I’ll certainly never forget all the shit I got on here for saying Judge should’ve been MVP over Altuve that year. I’m sure Judge could’ve gotten a higher BA if he knew what pitch was coming like Altuve did. Watch the entire Astros offense take a noticeable dip in performance next year.

So all of the Yankees championships from 1998 on are tainted and footnoted.

Good to know.

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14 hours ago, ss13 said:

Tweet's not embedding right now, but... 

 

That fifth year option with an $8mil buyout got him to the magic 100 mil he was looking for. Braves probably didn’t offer as much and Nats likely had years of deferred money in theirs. 

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19 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Houston sports are such a joke 

Look.  We get it.  This gets you hard.  I'm glad you have this.

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Disclaimer: I can't stand Chris Russo and am only posting this for DD's enjoyment:

 

Edited by Beau Vine

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The Astros were good enough to win without doing it.


None of us will ever know that for sure because the Astros cheated all of us out of the opportunity to see a fair postseason. Both the ALCS and the WS went to game 7 so it’s hard to say the Astros still win both series without cheating unless you believe their cheating didn’t help their performance.

If you’re an Astros fan and you honestly believe they would’ve won without cheating, or that the cheating didn’t help them, then it must be infuriating to watch this unfold because your team’s one and only championship is tarnished by the players’ and coaches’ dumbfuckery.

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36 minutes ago, wild_turkey said:


If you’re an Astros fan and you honestly believe they would’ve won without cheating, or that the cheating didn’t help them, then it must be infuriating to watch this unfold because your team’s one and only championship is tarnished by the players’ and coaches’ dumbfuckery.

 

Yeah... that’s pretty much what I said.  Infuriated isn’t the right word for me.    Disappointed, annoyed, sad are more appropriate in my case.  
 

Astros will still be my team as long as they stay short of institutionally covering up murder or rape. 

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