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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez


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24 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

She did a better job formulating her point than you did. However, my response applies to her tweet as well. She is minimizing perspectives which put some amount of weight on personal responsibility and accountability when it comes to financial decision making, and suggesting that fantasy funding mechanisms impacting an inperceivably small number of Americans will support government largesse.  Which honestly makes her pretty much perfect for congress. 

 

 

Again, I wasn't even attempting to fully describe that belief. I was just differentiating from the idea that she was saying banks shouldn't consider financial resources in evaluating debtors. Also, inperceivably isn't a word.

I think we can agree that beliefs as to personal responsibility and finances run a spectrum. On one end, you'll have the belief that no one is individually responsible for their financial predicament. On the other end, that the individual is entirely responsible for it.  Historically, America has tended much more closely to the latter. Criticizing that historical prejudice against the less fortunate doesn't minimize all "perspectives which put some amount of weight on personal responsibility." She didn't say that personal responsibility is no factor at all, just that for many people other factors are far more important. It is a criticism of the extreme, not the entire spectrum. Your suggestion otherwise is a blatant strawman. 

 

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Perhaps not germane to the current shit-flinging, but it seems important:

A person whose income is in the neighborhood of the poverty line has no margin for error.  They can't take hardly any risk.  As we all know, with risk often comes great reward.  Their risk is limited to $10 a week in Lotto tickets.  (Yeah, they shouldn't do that, either.  Guess which state legislatures knew that when they implemented the lottery to "fund education"?  That would be "ALL OF THEM", Bob.)

The DINK couple pulling down $300K combined can afford to dump a significant amount of their 401K into pot stocks and bitcoins, or maybe invest in a BBQ joint run by an alcoholic thief.  They can take the loss . . . pussies.  Sometimes those gambles pay off, too.  Maybe they angel invest in a tech startup run by their best friend's brother, and it eventually goes public and makes them 10X on their investment (gamble).

I don't know why it seems cool for Chase Bank to tweet an incredibly unprofessional and somewhat offensive meme, but it's not cool for AOC to reply.  Burn her!

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9 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

The DINK couple pulling down $300K combined can afford to dump a significant amount of their 401K into pot stocks and bitcoins, or maybe invest in a BBQ joint run by an alcoholic thief.  They can take the loss . . . pussies.

I feel personally attacked

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29 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Also, it is inperceivably isn't a word.

*m

29 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

She didn't say that personal responsibility is no factor at all, just that for many people other factors are far more important. It is a criticism of the extreme, not the entire spectrum. Your suggestion otherwise is a blatant strawman. 

She didn't tweet those words or frame that specific criticism. And my suggestion is not a straw man (BTW, strawman is not a word). 

"The myth that bad credit or struggling w bills = irresponsibility is a heinous myth."

She indicates that the notion that bad credit or financial difficultly reflects irresponsibility is a myth.  Not just a myth, a heinous one. This is of course true in many specific situations; these outcomes are not associated with irresponsible decision making and are driven instead by a variety of other factors.  There are also a large number of specific situations where it is in fact quite true. People get into shit financial predicaments as a result of acting irresponsibly.  As you indicate, we are dealing with a spectrum.  There are many points on that spectrum. To say that one of those points is a heinous myth without some sort of clear couching is undermining to that reality.

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I didn't take her statement that way.  The "equals" sign pretty much implies that bad credit is ALWAYS due to fiscal irresponsibility, and obviously that's not always the case.  Her point is valid.  Anyone disputing it is looking for something to argue about.

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1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Comes down to education, hard work, and a bit of luck once you get that eduction. Education opens doors to worlds people can't otherwise see in their small little slice of heaven.

Didn't AOC have a degree but chose to waitress and whine about it? 

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2 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I didn't take her statement that way.  The "equals" sign pretty much implies that bad credit is ALWAYS due to fiscal irresponsibility, and obviously that's not always the case.  Her point is valid.  Anyone disputing it is looking for something to argue about.

Except nobody actually believes that struggling financially is ALWAYS due to acting irresponsibly. Speaking of straw men, she totally slayed that one. 

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3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Except nobody actually believes that struggling financially is ALWAYS due to acting irresponsibly. Speaking of straw men, she totally slayed that one. 

Nah, it's a reasonable shorthand for the going perception.  

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1 minute ago, Captainant said:

I mean... she chose to run for congress to do something about what she views as injustice. That's hardly whining lol.

how many years did she wake up at night worrying about bills while not using her education?

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Just now, hookem48 said:

how many years did she wake up at night worrying about bills while not using her education?

It's almost as if you know jack shit about her.  She did find work using her degree.  Multiple positions.  She also worked in the food industry in part to help out her mother.  How about you read up a bit, using YOUR education?

Crimony.  I worry about money, I have multiple degrees, and most would say I've achieved a great deal in my profession, at which I've worked every day since grad school.

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Worked on the Bernie campaign in 2016 then felt compelled to run for congress and won at the age of 29. Characterizing as some sort of whiney person who isn't using her degree is almost impressive in its stupidity.

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45 minutes ago, hookem48 said:

how many years did she wake up at night worrying about bills while not using her education?

How many seconds have you ever spent looking beyond your spoon-fed pre-conceptions and actually looked at the world as it is? I'm betting the under.

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45 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Nah, it's a reasonable shorthand for the going perception.  

Correct. It is a shorthand for those on the extreme that believe that the majority of poor are poor of their own making. And there are plenty of people who hold that belief. For example, here is a poll where 42% of the respondents thought that poverty was "generally more often to blame" on an individual's "lack of effort" rather than "difficult circumstances"  http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/national/washington-post-kaiser-family-foundation-rural-and-small-town-america-poll/2217/

Please note Anastasis (since I sense a rebuke coming), I'm not suggesting that this poll is representative of the entire population nor that 42% of the people in the United States have that belief. I haven't done enough research on the poll itself to know if that is a reasonable conclusion. But I am comfortable concluding that a substantial number of people in this country hold that belief. And I'm comfortable saying that presumption is not only incorrect, but also morally and socially dangerous. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

It’s also dangerous and destructive to tell poor people to vote for my party because them being poor is the fault of someone else and that they’re victim.  Because it encourages them not to try.  It’s very harmful.  

https://apnews.com/2c55cd2496a14bdd98bcf84ccdb34810

You mean like how trump got the couch burner coal country vote by blaming the democrats for their economic misfortune and that he alone could and would fix it?

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The dude who wanted to lecture us about who really is a liberal in this country is demonizing teachers unions, you know the real problem why our education system sucks so much for those in areas that...oh wait, what's this, public schools aren't equally funded across our country?

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/property-taxes-and-unequal-schools/497333/

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6 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

The dude who wanted to lecture us about who really is a liberal in this country is demonizing teachers unions, you know the real problem why our education system sucks so much for those in areas that...oh wait, what's this, public schools aren't equally funded across our country?

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/property-taxes-and-unequal-schools/497333/

Sorry pal own the faux liberal reality.

 

Teachers unions aren't helping make public school systems better, in fact they make them worse. They're a circle the wagons, we protect ours no matter what, clique just like (not all) but many other unions. Check out Waiting for Superman for a good dose of what works, what doesn't and why.

Schools are funded locally.  I'm not sure that's the most equitable, but the schools that have resources, parents, and teachers all on the same page, do well.

Many inner city systems spend more per dollar than other successful suburban systems, and still have sub 80% HS graduation rates. Money is key, but the major issue is non parental involvement.  THAT is an issue directly related to a cycle of poverty.

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Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

Sorry pal own the faux liberal reality.

Teachers unions aren't helping make public school systems better, in fact they make them worse. They're a circle the wagons, we protect ours no matter what, clique just like (not all) but many other unions. Check out Waiting for Superman for a good dose of what works, what doesn't and why.

Schools are funded locally.  I'm not sure that's the most equitable, but the schools that have resources, parents, and teachers all on the same page, do well.

Many inner city systems spend more per dollar than other successful suburban systems, and still have sub 80% HS graduation rates. Money is key, but the major issue is non parental involvement.  THAT is an issue directly related to a cycle of poverty.

Sounds like those people who are locked in a cycle of poverty need more money.

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17 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

So teachers unions don't run Virginia's horrible public school systems?

 

Va. has some of the best suburban school systems in the country. The city school systems in Va. suck shit for the most part.  That's because cities are not incorporated/ part of counties, they're their own entity.  Commonwealth vs. state difference.

The city of Richmond graduates 76% of it's HS kids, that's the worst in the state. Their system is city run, poorly managed, not great teachers, highest paid administrators in the region,  schools are literally falling down, and they pay the highest tax rate in the region at around $1.10 per hundred ( surrounding counties are all well below that), and a 25% poverty rate (THE key factor).

No one who can afford to drop $14-$20K a year to go to privates (like where Russell Wilson graduated) sends their kids to city schools. If they can't afford it 90%, they move to the suburbs, and get public schools as good as anywhere in the country.

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Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

Va. has some of the best suburban school systems in the country. The city school systems in Va. suck shit for the most part.  That's because cities are not in counties, they're their own entity.  Commonwealth vs. state difference.

The city of Richmond graduates 76% of it's HS kids, that's the worst in the state. Their system is city run, poorly managed, not great teachers, highest paid administrators in the region,  schools are literally falling down, and they pay the highest tax rate in the region at around $1.10 per hundred ( surrounding counties are all well below that), and a 25% poverty rate (THE key factor).

No one who can afford to drop $14-$20K a year to go to privates (like where Russell Wilson graduated) sends their kids to city schools. If they can't afford it 90%, they move to the suburbs, and get public schools as good as anywhere in the country.

So it's local funding that's the problem.

Got it.

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7 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

So it's local funding that's the problem.

Got it.

Yeah stop trying to play yer little gotcha game. It's not a funding issue, as much as it is a fucked up school system that doesn't work regardless of how much gets thrown at it.  There are plenty of nations who perform better than the US, and spend less per child.

School funding IS local, you knew that already though.

 

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1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yeah stop trying to play yer little gotcha game. It's not a funding issue, as much as it is a fucked up school system that doesn't work regardless of how much gets thrown at it.  There are plenty of nations who perform better than the US, and spend less per child.

School funding IS local, you knew that already though.

 

Yeah, it is. And that's the problem.

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Just now, David Dennison said:

But what they really need is money. You should understand that better than most.

 

We have less than 4 percent unemployment.  Anyone that wants a job can get one.  We have people who don’t speak our language but are willing to work that come over the border and won’t work for less than $12 an hour.  Because that’s what the market demands.  

So if they need money, they live in a great time. Go work.  Move to Midland and pass a piss test, you can make $20 an hour even if you’re close to mentally retarded.  

Don’t want to be poor and you’ve won the lotto by being born healthy in the USA?

finish high school

dont abuse drugs or alcohol

work full time ( and a little OT if you want to get ahead)

dont have kids unless you can afford them (condoms are cheap and wal mart sells birth control pills for $15 a month)

cohabitate with someone who does the first 4 steps 

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2 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

We have less than 4 percent unemployment.  Anyone that wants a job can get one.  We have people who don’t speak our language but are willing to work that come over the border and won’t work for less than $12 an hour.  Because that’s what the market demands.  

So if they need money, they live in a great time. Go work.  Move to Midland and pass a piss test, you can make $20 an hour even if you’re close to mentally retarded.  

Don’t want to be poor and you’ve won the lotto by being born healthy in the USA?

finish high school

dont abuse drugs or alcohol

work full time ( and a little OT if you want to get ahead)

dont have kids unless you can afford them (condoms are cheap and wal mart sells birth control pills for $15 a month)

cohabitate with someone who does the first 4 steps 

Millions of people in this country do all of those things and are still poor.

Being born into a wealthy family would have been a much better predictor of not being poor. You can relate.

 

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2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Millions of people in this country do all of those things and are still poor.

Being born into a wealthy family would have been a much better predictor of not being poor. You can relate.

 

Of course.  But anyone by following those steps can not be poor.  

Do those steps and have bad luck, maybe you’re struggling some.  But less than you would if you didnt follow those steps. 

Follow those steps and teach your kids to do the same with some luck and you could get rich.  Or your kids could. 

The other option is just to make shitty choices and vote for politicians who tell you that you’re not at fault. 

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Just now, Johnny Sack said:

Of course.  But anyone by following those steps can not be poor.  

Do those steps and have bad luck, maybe you’re struggling some.  But less than you would if you didnt follow those steps. 

Follow those steps and teach your kids to do the same with some luck and you could get rich.  Or your kids could. 

The other option is just to make shitty choices and vote for politicians who tell you that you’re not at fault. 

And anyone not following those steps can be wealthy.

The point is, luck plays a much larger role than most people care to admit.

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2 hours ago, GSU&UT said:

Worked on the Bernie campaign in 2016 then felt compelled to run for congress and won at the age of 29. Characterizing as some sort of whiney person who isn't using her degree is almost impressive in its stupidity.

It's a bigly display of stupidity. Many people are saying that. 

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37 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

And anyone not following those steps can be wealthy.

The point is, luck plays a much larger role than most people care to admit.

If you’re born healthy in the USA you are already way ahead.  Make good decisions and the odds of you being poor are tiny.  

But democrats harvesting votes by telling people they are poor because the deck is stacked against them and not due to in part their poor choices is very bad.  You are harming them.  

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Just now, Johnny Sack said:

Yes it is.  It’s why so many people risk everything to come here.  

It's not true. The greatest predictor of financial security in this country is who your parents are. Not what you do or the decisions you make.

It's luck more than anything.

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  • hayden_horn changed the title to Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez


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