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Transgender woman shocked by higher car insurance rates for women


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1 hour ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Interesting. Are there actuarial tables on trans people yet?  

Could be an interesting mixture of physical risks associated with one sex and behavioral risks associated with the other. 

Driving is behavior driven, but behavior can be hormone dependent and some trans people do hormone therapy and some don’t. Same with gender reassignment surgery. 

Maybe the insurance companies, who aren’t exactly altruistic, put trans folks in higher risk groups across the board to cover their asses financially. 

Couple of points:  

1. I doubt there is any data available, because any insurance application I’ve ever see asks male/female only, there isn’t a box for other.  You would need years of data, or for life insurance, decades of data, to make any meaningful conclusions.

2.  Even if there were data available, I doubt there would be a huge difference in risk.

3.  The group in question is such a small percentage of the population, it’s probably not even worth the money spent to do the research.

4.  Even if a company chose to do the research, and found a higher risk profile, they still have to get approval from the individual state insurance departments to charge a higher premium for it, which would be a legal and political minefield.

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2 hours ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Fat people pay more for food. UNFAIR.

No they don't.  They simply buy more food.  In fact, they may pay less per unit for food since they buy in bulk.

Something else happened with this woman that isn't being told.  The difference between male and female car insurance rates isn't as drastic as her increase.

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25 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

All of that sounds reasonable. 

But what about when people like this lady put it into the court system?  Do the carriers take the easy way out and remove the m/f question?  Or does that open them up for further litigation for age and health differences?

No idea about the court system.  Insurance companies have to be able to rate differently based on relevant rating factors.  You can certainly debate about which factors are relevant, but for auto insurance the factors have been pretty consistent over time, and my educated guess is that they result in most people on this board paying less for their auto insurance. 

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1 hour ago, conVINCEd said:

Couple of points:  

1. I doubt there is any data available, because any insurance application I’ve ever see asks male/female only, there isn’t a box for other.  You would need years of data, or for life insurance, decades of data, to make any meaningful conclusions.

2.  Even if there were data available, I doubt there would be a huge difference in risk.

3.  The group in question is such a small percentage of the population, it’s probably not even worth the money spent to do the research.

4.  Even if a company chose to do the research, and found a higher risk profile, they still have to get approval from the individual state insurance departments to charge a higher premium for it, which would be a legal and political minefield.

The one item of data life insurance actuaries do have on trans community is the higher likelihood of suicide which I'm sure would be looked at.  

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37 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

The one item of data life insurance actuaries do have on trans community is the higher likelihood of suicide which I'm sure would be looked at.  

Since suicides don’t pay out, would it matter?  Or is that just something tv and movies have gotten me to believe is true?

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9 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Since suicides don’t pay out, would it matter?  Or is that just something tv and movies have gotten me to believe is true?

Suicides within the first 2 years of the policy are excluded.  Beyond 2 years they are covered.  So, long game.

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1 hour ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Since suicides don’t pay out, would it matter?  Or is that just something tv and movies have gotten me to believe is true?

If someone fell into a category that had a higher suicide rate, and if the policy did not pay out for suicide, then in theory wouldn't the overall policy premium be lower for those individuals?

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1 minute ago, ABSR said:

If someone fell into a category that had a higher suicide rate, and if the policy did not pay out for suicide, then in theory wouldn't the overall policy premium be lower for those individuals?

Policies do pay out for suicide, but only after 2 years.  However, if there were actuarial information of a population subset that made the actuaries believe the tables had to be adjusted to account for higher rates of something, then they will most likely charge more money for it.  They already do this.  Smokers, Diabetics, DWI's, Cancer, etc.  

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2 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

Suicides within the first 2 years of the policy are excluded.  Beyond 2 years they are covered.  So, long game.

Speaking of long game, is it still true that if you live to 100 that return all your premiums?  I know some of the major carriers used to do this.  

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18 minutes ago, RollLeft said:

Speaking of long game, is it still true that if you live to 100 that return all your premiums?  I know some of the major carriers used to do this.  

Whole life policies are designed to have the cash value equal the face amount when you turn 100.  I believe some carriers have changed that to 110, but I haven’t dealt with whole life in quite a while.

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8 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

All of that sounds reasonable. 

But what about when people like this lady put it into the court system?  Do the carriers take the easy way out and remove the m/f question?  Or does that open them up for further litigation for age and health differences?

Discrimination is not illegal, particularly not in the private sector, and particularly not when supported by data.  It is perfectly legal for insurers to discriminate between male and female drivers as long as there is a statistical basis for doing so.  If they had no basis other than "women are shitty drivers," without evidence, they might have a problem.

I'm not sure the trans people will want to put this into the court system, because it might force them to take some positions as to  sex of genitalia versus sex of psychology that they don't want to get into, particularly not for trans people as a class.

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1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm not sure the trans people will want to put this into the court system, because it might force them to take some positions as to  sex of genitalia versus sex of psychology that they don't want to get into, particularly not for trans people as a class.

There are always plenty of folks willing to go to court who don't think these things through.

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On 10/9/2018 at 1:54 PM, bschoolprof said:

per month.

That notwithstanding, I've always found legalized discrimination in the insurance industry interesting.  

 

It's not discrimination.  Insurance is priced by risk pools.  

Men pay more for life insurance because they die about 3 years earlier on average.

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Actually it is discrimination.  Discrimination is drawing any distinction between one person and another, or one group and another.  It's just not unlawful because discrimination among risk categories is fundamental to insurance.  If those categories happen to correspond to race, or sex, or sexuality, well, so be it., as long as they aren't made up.

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8 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

It's not discrimination.  Insurance is priced by risk pools.  

Men pay more for life insurance because they die about 3 years earlier on average.

I understand how insurance works. It is legalized discrimination that is often critical to the efficient functioning of said markets. 

What I was getting at is this type discrimination that we seem to be ok with in insurance pricing would probably not be tolerated in other settings (e.g., hotel pricing, car rentals, interest rates, etc).  I find that interesting. 

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I’ll play along...

 

My driving did get worse, much worse. At least initially. Ripped my Mercedes all up and down leaving the hair salon once. I couldn’t help but laugh. Totally distracted with a gorgeous haircut and blow out. After decades of a clean record I made a bone head move. My driving has settled in and I drive fine now. But spatial recognition and distraction stimuli and my reaction to it seemed to be much different post transition. YYMV across others I dunno.

 

Overall car insurance rates up, life insurance down. Most applications are M/F and that’s all there is to it, I check the F box. Disability, health insurance and life insurance were all different.

 

Life insurance was easy - straight up female rates. I can see a lot of reasons why, my blood pressure and other vitals come back more female so there is a baseline reason there. Suicide is a non issue for my insurer - it’s covered and when they saw my ask was commiserate with my income multiplier they said yes and we moved on.

 

Health was easy too and full trans coverage came with it when I was planning our firm group coverage without an option to exclude unless I wanted to ask the insurer specifically for trans exclusionary coverage. United, BCBS and Humana all included it. this was before I came out to the broker and in Texas. Again another non-issue.

 

Disability was much different and when I tried to get coverage through the State Bar via prudential I had to nearly threaten a discrim suit. Their initial denial letter put it all on being trans. I asked for an appeal and to see their records. They then said it was also ADHD and anxiety - Neither truly diagnosed - I explored possibilities and treatment and didn’t pursue anything really with it and anxiety was situational based of infidelity, being forced into an open marriage and subsequent divorce. They also refused to give me the records nor to honor my request for an appeal. I even went so far to say in my second response letter “I didn’t ask for a revised basis for your denial, I asked for an appeal and copies of the records you reviewed.” Suffice it to say - bullshit answer. I then demanded an appeal again and copies of the records. I discussed with my doctor we prepared another response and it crossed in the mail with their approval.

 

Everyone talks about suicide and y’all can keep your preconceived notions if you want but being able to transition, reasonably successfully on looks and ability to blend, with emotional support and a path way in society that works nearly eliminates that risk. I’ve got way to much life to live now to kill myself.

 

Anyway, I get insurance is gonna do what they do, but most of my experience has been easy and inconsequential - with the exception of prudential and disability. The strangest thing is prudential scored 100% on the HRC corporate equality index. Thought it might be the State Bar instructions to them and I was willing to blow both of them up over it.

 

No way I’m a bigger overall risk to an insurance company as a well adjusted happy trans woman than I was as a severely suffering dude. No way.

 

 

 

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my lucky rabbit avatar? That’s based on my Chinese zodiac. Was a painting of a sunflower on the old site. I don’t even remember before that. None maybe? Thought about changing it to pics of boobies but have been too lazy to do it.

 

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