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2019 NBA Playoffs Thread


Vic Mackey

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On 4/20/2019 at 6:06 AM, CBT said:

Is there a story behind this?
 

RW is petty and everyone is unsure why he has singled out this one reporter but now he can’t walk it back because of pride. The worst part is that he seems to not allow others on the team to speak to the reporter as well.  If you do, you days in okc might be numbered. Which for some players could mean out of the league.  To keep the peace in the locker room even other star players have to go along with RW.

Now what to do with it.  The nba can force players to stand in front of the media but cooperation is hard to define and enforce. But if players only reply “next question” to any reporter they hate, that becomes the story not the game or players. It’s bad for the game and players.  Someone that RW respects needs to talk to him that he should make nice the media.  The team itself shouldn’t be afraid to RW if he can state the issue beyond that he doesn’t like the reporter.  

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6 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

And yet even with those 5 titles, you still are acting like second fiddle.  Riding on GS nuts begging for a Rockets loss.  You may as well be chanting SEC.  But that SA inferiority complex isn't sports related. It's city related.  You are what, 4th fiddle in Texas now after Austin grew up?  The only large Texas city without a decent economy and a national draw? 

BTW, in my opinion, SA is a fantastic city.  It has a culture that Houston, Dallas, and Austin don't have.  And the Spurs are a class franchise. It just isn't a big market and it never will be. Spurs are my second favorite team even. SA isn't aggy. You are.

And, IMO, the NBA isn't entertaining at all now. I prefer the 90s when you could handcheck and arm bar. The touch fouls they call now ruin the game. Durant would have been snapped in two in the 80s and 90s. Harden too. 

   I am going to preface this by saying I am from the 90's also. However, Durant and Harden would get snapped in two in the 90's? That's a laugh. I think you guys really are "misremembering" the 90's. If Kevin Durant is allowed to dribble the way this era allows, there is no era that he wouldn't dominate. He is literally unstoppable offensively. It's funny that we think a league where a 6'6, 205lb Jordan and 6'7 195lb Reggie Miller dominated would somehow hinder a 6'10, 240 Durant and a 6'5 220lb Harden? That's a joke right? These guys are quicker, faster, bigger, stronger, and more skilled. It's evolution. Hand checking isn't going to bother these dudes anymore than it bothered Reggie Miller's frail ass.

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21 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

   I am going to preface this by saying I am from the 90's also. However, Durant and Harden would get snapped in two in the 90's? That's a laugh. I think you guys really are "misremembering" the 90's. If Kevin Durant is allowed to dribble the way this era allows, there is no era that he wouldn't dominate. He is literally unstoppable offensively. It's funny that we think a league where a 6'6, 205lb Jordan and 6'7 195lb Reggie Miller dominated would somehow hinder a 6'10, 240 Durant and a 6'5 220lb Harden? That's a joke right? These guys are quicker, faster, bigger, stronger, and more skilled. It's evolution. Hand checking isn't going to bother these dudes anymore than it bothered Reggie Miller's frail ass.

Good point on Miller. His game is pretty similar to current players. Overall though, if you go back and watch some old tape, most of the good teams would try to wreck anyone who took the ball to the hole. Almost none of the fouls that Harden draws when driving would have been called in the 90s, and he would have spent a lot more time picking himself up off the floor. There's a reason scoring was lower back then.  

Is there even an enforcer playing in the league today?

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Enforcers would be run off the court in today's NBA. Pretty hard to be an intimidating presence when you're grabbing your shorts by mid 2nd quarter. The pace has made them extinct (see: Perkins, Kendrick).

And you won't find a bigger fan of Oak, Mason, and the Davis brothers than me...but what the fuck would they do trying to defend a PnR with Harden, Steph or KD 30 feet from the basket?

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19 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Good point on Miller. His game is pretty similar to current players. Overall though, if you go back and watch some old tape, most of the good teams would try to wreck anyone who took the ball to the hole. Almost none of the fouls that Harden draws when driving would have been called in the 90s, and he would have spent a lot more time picking himself up off the floor. There's a reason scoring was lower back then.  

Is there even an enforcer playing in the league today?

   You have to remember the 90's were full of non shooting oafs, who's sole job was to muck up the game. Nowadays the NBA players play way beyond the perimeter, making dudes just hanging around the paint ready to hack a dude going to the rim obsolete. Dudes couldn't shoot in the 90's. A guy like KD would get 30+ a game without ever getting within 10 feet of the rim. He is that good. The herky jerky handle in today's game also makes hand checking a thing of the past. Hard to get a hand on someone who is constantly crossing you over, and changing direction.

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8 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Enforcers would be run off the court in today's NBA. Pretty hard to be an intimidating presence when you're grabbing your shorts by mid 2nd quarter. The pace has made them extinct (see: Perkins, Kendrick).

And you won't find a bigger fan of Oak, Mason, and the Davis brothers than me...but what the fuck would they do trying to defend a PnR with Harden, Steph or KD 30 feet from the basket?

Power forwards wouldn't be guarding them. It isn't like Oakley was guarding Michael Jordan.  Enforcers mainly collapsed into the lane on drives, and got dirty as fuck on rebounds. Handcheck defense outside the 3 point line made it harder to shoot a drop back 3, but it would be John Starks applying that defense for that Knicks team.  He'd be the pest on the outside trying to funnel a guard into the violence in the lane. 

Still, the Knicks were tough but fairly clean. A lot of the enforcers, like Rambis, barely played any minutes, but came in just to fuck up the other team's best player. The only team built top to bottom with dirty players was the Pistons. 

Watch this Laimbeer undercut of Ewing in the first 10 seconds. 

That would probably be a multigame suspension now. I certainly don't support that type of horseshit play, but it was something that 80s and 90s players faced in addition to more aggressive defense generally. 

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2 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Power forwards wouldn't be guarding them. It isn't like Oakley was guarding Michael Jordan.  Enforcers mainly collapsed into the lane on drives, and got dirty as fuck on rebounds. Handcheck defense outside the 3 point line made it harder to shoot a drop back 3, but it would be John Starks applying that defense for that Knicks team.  He'd be the pest on the outside trying to funnel a guard into the violence in the lane. 

Still, the Knicks were tough but fairly clean. A lot of the enforcers, like Rambis, barely played any minutes, but came in just to fuck up the other team's best player. The only team built top to bottom with dirty players was the Pistons. 

Watch this Laimbeer undercut of Ewing in the first 10 seconds. 

That would probably be a multigame suspension now. I certainly don't support that type of horseshit play, but it was something that 80s and 90s players faced in addition to more aggressive defense generally. 

    What Aggie08 is saying is this. Back in the old days if you got caught in a pick and roll with a big and a guard you could just blitz the guard to force the ball out of his hands. He would pass it to the big who picked for him and that big would either try to drive to the hole, or look helplessly for someone to pass the ball to. In today's game that big can shoot 3's at a 40% clip. So you are forced to stay connected, which ends you up with a Charles Oakley out there trying to stay with Steph Curry in space. That is why the defense of the 90's doesn't work in today's era.

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14 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

   You have to remember the 90's were full of non shooting oafs, who's sole job was to muck up the game. Nowadays the NBA players play way beyond the perimeter, making dudes just hanging around the paint ready to hack a dude going to the rim obsolete. Dudes couldn't shoot in the 90's. A guy like KD would get 30+ a game without ever getting within 10 feet of the rim. He is that good. The herky jerky handle in today's game also makes hand checking a thing of the past. Hard to get a hand on someone who is constantly crossing you over, and changing direction.

Hand checking is a thing of the past because it was made illegal in 2004.  It was legal prior to that.  It would still be effective because you can force an offensive player to play with his back to you anywhere on the court with it. The crossover is easier to accomplish now because "no touch" defense means the defender always has to give the offensive player the space to face the basket. 

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2 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

    What Aggie08 is saying is this. Back in the old days if you got caught in a pick and roll with a big and a guard you could just blitz the guard to force the ball out of his hands. He would pass it to the big who picked for him and that big would either try to drive to the hole, or look helplessly for someone to pass the ball to. In today's game that big can shoot 3's at a 40% clip. So you are forced to stay connected, which ends you up with a Charles Oakley out there trying to stay with Steph Curry in space. That is why the defense of the 90's doesn't work in today's era.

Again, it's not that it doesn't or wouldn't work. It's core tactics were made illegal and are instantly called fouls now. That style of defense didn't go away because of changing offensive playing style. The league intentionally took it away. 

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Just now, FondrenRoad said:

Hand checking is a thing of the past because it was made illegal in 2004.  It was legal prior to that.  It would still be effective because you can force an offensive player to play with his back to you anywhere on the court with it. The crossover is easier to accomplish now because "no touch" defense means the defender always has to give the offensive player the space to face the basket. 

   No man. The crossover didn't really exist back then. Tim Hardaway was one of the first player's to have a real crossover, and he made a living off that damn thing IN THE HANDCHECK ERA. You go back and watch his crossover now, and it's a joke compared to the moves the guy's in todays game put on people. Put a hand on Steph's hip and he is going to drive hard one way a few steps and cross back to create space from you. Once he is there, there will be nothing you can do to get that hand back on him again. You dribbled with your hand on top of the ball in the 90's. Once the league decided to allow cuffing the ball(see Iverson), massive changes in direction became the norm.

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13 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Again, it's not that it doesn't or wouldn't work. It's core tactics were made illegal and are instantly called fouls now. That style of defense didn't go away because of changing offensive playing style. The league intentionally took it away. 

    Imagine a 1-4 pick with Steph and Ibaka. You go under the pick and Steph rains 3's on you all game. You double off the pick and Ibaka rains 3's and 18 footers on you all game. Your choice is to switch, leaving Oakley trying to defend Steph in space, and let's face it, bigs weren't fleet of foot in the 90's. Today's game is different. Imagine trying to defend Houston while 4 of the 5 players on the court all stood outside the 3 point line raining 50 3's a game on the Piston's lineup who was hell bent on defending the paint. Different Era's man.

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1 minute ago, Thatguy said:

   No man. The crossover didn't really exist back then. Tim Hardaway was one of the first player's to have a real crossover, and he made a living off that damn thing IN THE HANDCHECK ERA. You go back and watch his crossover now, and it's a joke compared to the moves the guy's in todays game put on people. Put a hand on Steph's hip and he is going to drive hard one way a few steps and cross back to create space from you. Once he is there, there will be nothing you can do to get that hand back on him again. You dribbled with your hand on top of the ball in the 90's. Once the league decided to allow cuffing the ball(see Iverson), massive changes in direction became the norm.

Palming and carrying the ball while dribbling has been common since at least the 80s. Jordan did it nearly every time he touched the ball.  Massive changes in direction became the norm because the league handcuffed defensive players. 

Curry's entire game is based around the defender's inability to handcheck. Could he adapt in the handcheck era?  Most likely since he is one of the best players around. He sure wouldn't be relying on face up drop back 3s.   Nor would he be blowing by that era's best defenders.

Hardaway would be a lot better scorer now than he was in the 90s.  Dude was always overrated though.  More flash than substance.  He wasn't really living off anything.  He got rocked defensively by guys like John Stockton.

Someone like Kenny Smith would go from being a role player to a team's offensive focal point if he played now.

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4 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Palming and carrying the ball while dribbling has been common since at least the 80s. Jordan did it nearly every time he touched the ball.  Massive changes in direction became the norm because the league handcuffed defensive players. 

Curry's entire game is based around the defender's inability to handcheck. Could he adapt in the handcheck era?  Most likely since he is one of the best players around. He sure wouldn't be relying on face up drop back 3s.   Nor would he be blowing by that era's best defenders.

Hardaway would be a lot better scorer now than he was in the 90s.  Dude was always overrated though.  More flash than substance.  He wasn't really living off anything.  He got rocked defensively by guys like John Stockton.

Someone like Kenny Smith would go from being a role player to a team's offensive focal point if he played now.

giphy.gif

And are you arguing for the hand checking?  Because despite it being legal for much of the NBA's tenure, it wasn't deployed to such ludicrous fashions until the 90's and early aughts when the game became almost unwatchable over time.  The league tried to get in front of it in 94 with an abridged version but the also allowed tons of off the ball clutching, banging and violent redirecting.  Eliminating the hand check rule was important in getting the league back on track offensively but there were some other rule changes along with changing the way the officials called the game.  You can make the case they may have gone too far as the launching into defensive players and rip rules need more scrutiny.

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21 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

    Imagine a 1-4 pick with Steph and Ibaka. You go under the pick and Steph rains 3's on you all game. You double off the pick and Ibaka rains 3's and 18 footers on you all game. Your choice is to switch, leaving Oakley trying to defend Steph in space, and let's face it, bigs weren't fleet of foot in the 90's. Today's game is different. Imagine trying to defend Houston while 4 of the 5 players on the court all stood outside the 3 point line raining 50 3's a game on the Piston's lineup who was hell bent on defending the paint. Different Era's man.

Ignoring the fact that your cherry picking includes Ibaka and Curry who have never been on the same team, and Oakley who isn't even a top 20 power forward of his era, you are missing a couple things. Oakley is going to prevent a 3 point shot, and he will get help from Ewing when Curry goes around him. Starks will be on Ibaka like a shirt, forcing Ibaka to try to post him up. And posting up is something modern bigs don't really do. 

Then on the other end of the court, there is almost no way for your hypothetical team to defend the Knicks on the interior. 

Also the Pistons defended the whole court, not just the paint. 

I'm not saying that no modern players could adapt to the old game. You seem to believe that 90s style defense ended on it's own because it wouldn't work on current players. That simply isn't true. It was intentionally made illegal. If it was legal, every team would still be hand checking and defending the post with an arm bar. And scoring would be down. 

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12 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

giphy.gif

And are you arguing for the hand checking?  Because despite it being legal for much of the NBA's tenure, it wasn't deployed to such ludicrous fashions until the 90's and early aughts when the game became almost unwatchable over time.  The league tried to get in front of it in 94 with an abridged version but the also allowed tons of off the ball clutching, banging and violent redirecting.  Eliminating the hand check rule was important in getting the league back on track offensively but there were some other rule changes along with changing the way the officials called the game.  You can make the case they may have gone too far as the launching into defensive players and rip rules need more scrutiny.

I liked that era a lot better than the live by 3s era we are in now.  

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3 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

I liked that era a lot better than the live by 3s era we are in now.  

Interesting.   That brand of ball was pretty bad.   I'm not a fan of teams shooting 50 threes a game but watching guys wrestle and games end with 70-65 scores is not even remotely entertaining.

I think you are also ignoring what the shooting of today would do that pack the lane defense back then.   You can only trade 2's for 3's for so long.  Guys didn't shoot the volume nor the accuracy that they do now from all 5 positions.   You could pack the lane and hard foul drivers but that isn't doing anything to stop guys bombing away.    Eventually those C's and PF's are gonna have to come out and guard the shooting C's and PF's of today and then the lane would be open as well.   

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53 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Palming and carrying the ball while dribbling has been common since at least the 80s. Jordan did it nearly every time he touched the ball.  Massive changes in direction became the norm because the league handcuffed defensive players. 

Curry's entire game is based around the defender's inability to handcheck. Could he adapt in the handcheck era?  Most likely since he is one of the best players around. He sure wouldn't be relying on face up drop back 3s.   Nor would he be blowing by that era's best defenders.

Hardaway would be a lot better scorer now than he was in the 90s.  Dude was always overrated though.  More flash than substance.  He wasn't really living off anything.  He got rocked defensively by guys like John Stockton.

Someone like Kenny Smith would go from being a role player to a team's offensive focal point if he played now.

unless he saw Gary Payton, then he would turn into a shriveled up pussy like always.

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1 hour ago, FondrenRoad said:

Power forwards wouldn't be guarding them. It isn't like Oakley was guarding Michael Jordan.  Enforcers mainly collapsed into the lane on drives, and got dirty as fuck on rebounds. Handcheck defense outside the 3 point line made it harder to shoot a drop back 3, but it would be John Starks applying that defense for that Knicks team.  He'd be the pest on the outside trying to funnel a guard into the violence in the lane. 

Still, the Knicks were tough but fairly clean. A lot of the enforcers, like Rambis, barely played any minutes, but came in just to fuck up the other team's best player. The only team built top to bottom with dirty players was the Pistons. 

Watch this Laimbeer undercut of Ewing in the first 10 seconds. 

That would probably be a multigame suspension now. I certainly don't support that type of horseshit play, but it was something that 80s and 90s players faced in addition to more aggressive defense generally. 

just playoff basketball

 

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41 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

I liked that era a lot better than the live by 3s era we are in now.  

Of course you do, it's the Rosy Retrospection fallacy.  Everything is better when you were young.  Early 90's basketball is pretty good.  80's may have been the golden era, but as the game transitioned into late 90's and early aughts, it became almost unwatchable.  Terrible, terrible game.  The game is meant to be fast and based on movement.  Free flowing.  It's not meant to see who can redirect or bump someone 5 times coming through the lane.  Today's game has a few issues it definitely needs to clean up but it's a lot better than where it was 15 years ago.

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7 minutes ago, hookem48 said:

just playoff basketball

 

Rambis probably deserved that shit. He was one of the dirtiest players around and had no other appreciable skill. 

It wasn't just defensive play that was different either. Karl Malone's kick shot was pretty brutal too. 

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1 minute ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Of course you do, it's the Rosy Retrospection fallacy.  Everything is better when you were young.  Early 90's basketball is pretty good.  80's may have been the golden era, but as the game transitioned into late 90's and early aughts, it became almost unwatchable.  Terrible, terrible game.  The game is meant to be fast and based on movement.  Free flowing.  It's not meant to see who can redirect or bump someone 5 times coming through the lane.  Today's game has a few issues it definitely needs to clean up but it's a lot better than where it was 15 years ago.

free flowing shouldn't mean you can catch a pass and take 4 steps to stop, or change your pivot foot 3 times then shuffle your feet when making a move. now get off my lawn

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8 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Of course you do, it's the Rosy Retrospection fallacy.  Everything is better when you were young.  Early 90's basketball is pretty good.  80's may have been the golden era, but as the game transitioned into late 90's and early aughts, it became almost unwatchable.  Terrible, terrible game.  The game is meant to be fast and based on movement.  Free flowing.  It's not meant to see who can redirect or bump someone 5 times coming through the lane.  Today's game has a few issues it definitely needs to clean up but it's a lot better than where it was 15 years ago.

I'd probably like today's game better if they got rid of the 3 point line. Make every shot 2.

All they really need to do though is call traveling when it happens, allow light inadvertent defensive contact, and allow the hand check while coming down hard with multigame suspensions for dirty play. 

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22 minutes ago, d2o said:

Interesting.   That brand of ball was pretty bad.   I'm not a fan of teams shooting 50 threes a game but watching guys wrestle and games end with 70-65 scores is not even remotely entertaining.

I think you are also ignoring what the shooting of today would do that pack the lane defense back then.   You can only trade 2's for 3's for so long.  Guys didn't shoot the volume nor the accuracy that they do now from all 5 positions.   You could pack the lane and hard foul drivers but that isn't doing anything to stop guys bombing away.    Eventually those C's and PF's are gonna have to come out and guard the shooting C's and PF's of today and then the lane would be open as well.   

70-65? I missed that era somehow.

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3 hours ago, Thatguy said:

   I am going to preface this by saying I am from the 90's also. However, Durant and Harden would get snapped in two in the 90's? That's a laugh. I think you guys really are "misremembering" the 90's. If Kevin Durant is allowed to dribble the way this era allows, there is no era that he wouldn't dominate. He is literally unstoppable offensively. It's funny that we think a league where a 6'6, 205lb Jordan and 6'7 195lb Reggie Miller dominated would somehow hinder a 6'10, 240 Durant and a 6'5 220lb Harden? That's a joke right? These guys are quicker, faster, bigger, stronger, and more skilled. It's evolution. Hand checking isn't going to bother these dudes anymore than it bothered Reggie Miller's frail ass.

Harden is not quicker, faster, stronger or more skilled than MJ was

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2 hours ago, Thatguy said:

   No man. The crossover didn't really exist back then. Tim Hardaway was one of the first player's to have a real crossover, and he made a living off that damn thing IN THE HANDCHECK ERA. You go back and watch his crossover now, and it's a joke compared to the moves the guy's in todays game put on people. Put a hand on Steph's hip and he is going to drive hard one way a few steps and cross back to create space from you. Once he is there, there will be nothing you can do to get that hand back on him again. You dribbled with your hand on top of the ball in the 90's. Once the league decided to allow cuffing the ball(see Iverson), massive changes in direction became the norm.

Allen Iverson says hi. Isaiah Thomas says hi......

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1 minute ago, immortal13 said:

Once the league decided to allow cuffing the ball(see Iverson), massive changes in direction became the norm.

This is what makes the difference. Ball skills are at best equivalent to the 80s, 90s, and 2000s. Traveling and palming have improved offensive performance and defense has suffered with the elimination of handchecking.

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44 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Harden is not quicker, faster, stronger or more skilled than MJ was

   You are right. Karl Lewis is as fast as Bolt. They were doing things in the dunk contests back in the 80;'s and 90's that kids today can't do. Football players are smaller and slower now than they were in the 90's. Point is, kids today are more athletic, taller and stronger than they were in the era's before. To say they are not is just plain silly. We thought we wouldn't see another Lebron, and lo and behold this kid named Zion came along who is every bit as athletic as he was and then some. I suppose next you will tell me cars now aren't more advanced than cars in the 80's and 90's too, right?

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16 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

   You are right. Karl Lewis is as fast as Bolt. They were doing things in the dunk contests back in the 80;'s and 90's that kids today can't do. Football players are smaller and slower now than they were in the 90's. Point is, kids today are more athletic, taller and stronger than they were in the era's before. To say they are not is just plain silly. We thought we wouldn't see another Lebron, and lo and behold this kid named Zion came along who is every bit as athletic as he was and then some. I suppose next you will tell me cars now aren't more advanced than cars in the 80's and 90's too, right?

The fuck is Karl Lewis?

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