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SmokeyBear1861

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11 hours ago, JohnnyRage said:

Not seeing this in a mainstream places. Did this happen, a playground in Rafah being droned?

 

https://www.thenational.scot/news/24258389.gaza-children-killed-israeli-strike-playground-leaves-11-dead/

It’s a refugee camp in central Gaza. CNN has a blurb on it but it’s been reported in AJ more extensively. Video of the aftermath is out there, but you can only watch so many videos of parents weeping while they cradle their dead child before they all start to run together. 

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14 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

It's okay, they didn't mean to hit a playground. They were aiming at a food convoy.

Not enough Brits or Australians on the playground to generate a full blown western media outrage.  

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23 hours ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

it's not ethnic cleansing if there is a choice, albeit a quasi forced one. Or no choice and they live in hell (Gaza) for the rest of their miserable lives. Tell me, what are the opportunities there for young people? It's time to get out. The US already has about 200,000 Palestinians, one of them in Congress, the numbers have dramatically increased in the last 20 years.  Lots of them in Canada, UK, and France already. This isn't difficult despite the faux outrage of ethnic cleansing. 

Fuck you. 

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congrats to Big Mo for winning the award !

https://www.reuters.com/world/reuters-mohammed-salem-wins-2024-world-press-photo-year-award-2024-04-18/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR3oVnNIlH2D7KQOUzAFLIoyds8FOrFBJ23Yy69szGj_S0Shd50BaA2uWcY_aem_ATIxbuGzRL8fw4ZbOaSWsR6ivzbnPnYq4GwRm2OLHqwvCSxVbSHJFwOPudwk6JzHrWzT8lzTsEilSiVIyhs4qNej

AMSTERDAM, April 18 (Reuters) - Reuters photographer Mohammed Salem won the prestigious 2024 World Press Photo of the Year award on Thursday for his image of a Palestinian woman cradling the body of her five-year-old niece in the Gaza Strip.

IDW6YRXEVNICXDISM3HT5U6KSU.jpg?auth=7fa2

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I think it is a no win for the US. This would make the Two State system law. I agree with the two state solution.

At the same time, there are a lot of groups, sure, not as controlled as Palestinians, who would push for this. Do you recognize them all? Curious, who were the 15?

Also, unlike a lot of groups they do have a voice, just not a vote.

Palestine is a non-member observer State of the UN, the same status as held by the Holy See. Any application for UN membership is considered by the Security Council, which then forwards it on to the 193-member General Assembly to adopt a resolution for the admission of a Member State.

A bit more. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_and_the_United_Nations

Spoiler

2015-2020 and Recognition

By September 2012, with their application for full membership stalled due to the inability of Security Council members to 'make a unanimous recommendation', the Palestine Authority had decided to pursue an upgrade in status from "observer entity" to "non-member observer state". On November 27 it was announced that the appeal had been officially made, and would be put to a vote in the General Assembly on 29 November, where their status upgrade was expected to be supported by a majority of states. In addition to granting Palestine "non-member observer state status", the draft resolution "expresses the hope that the Security Council will consider favorably the application submitted on 23 September 2011 by the State of Palestine for admission to full membership in the United Nations, endorses the two-state solution based on the pre-1967 borders, and stresses the need for an immediate resumption of negotiations between the two parties."

On Thursday, 29 November 2012, In a 138–9 vote (with 41 abstaining) General Assembly resolution 67/19 adopted, upgrading Palestine to "non-member observer state" status in the United Nations.[39][40] The new status equates Palestine's with that of the Holy See. The change in status was described by The Independent as "de facto recognition of the sovereign state of Palestine".[41]

The vote was an important move for the State of Palestine, whilst it was a diplomatic setback for Israel and the United States. Status as an observer state in the UN will allow the State of Palestine to join treaties and specialized UN agencies, such as the International Civil Aviation Organisation,[42] the Law of the Seas Treaty and the International Criminal Court. It shall permit Palestine to claim legal rights over its territorial waters and air space as a sovereign state recognized by the UN. It shall also provide Palestine with the right to sue for control of disputed territory in the International Court of Justice and bring war-crimes charges, mainly those relating to Israel's occupation of the State of Palestine, against Israel in the International Criminal Court.[43]

The UN has permitted Palestine to title its representative office to the UN as 'The Permanent Observer Mission of the State of Palestine to the United Nations',[44] and Palestine has started to re-title its name accordingly on postal stamps, official documents and passports,[40][45] whilst it has instructed its diplomats to officially represent 'The State of Palestine', as opposed to the 'Palestine National Authority'.[40] Additionally, on 17 December 2012, UN Chief of Protocol Yeocheol Yoon decided that "the designation of 'State of Palestine' shall be used by the Secretariat in all official United Nations documents",[1] thus recognising the PLO-proclaimed State of Palestine as being sovereign over the territories of Palestine and its citizens under international law.

As of 4 April 2024, 140 (72.5%) of the 193 member states of the United Nations, in addition to the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, have recognised the State of Palestine as sovereign over both West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Many of the countries that do not recognize the State of Palestine nevertheless recognize the PLO as the 'representative of the Palestinian people'.[46]

 

 

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This situation obviously sucks for the Palestinians. We all should have the freedom to exist and be able to do so without a threat of lead falling from the sky that could kill us at any moment. 
 

I do not believe that any of us will live long enough to see a two state solution implemented nor will the bickering that leads to outright violence ever stop. If I was the president of a country of people who embraced different cultures and didn’t have 40 percent or so of it that hates brown people I would offer every single Palestinian full citizenship that would want to take it. They are entitled to have the ability to live life without the fear of death hanging over them. We get one life and so much of theirs is wasted by their neighbor being a schoolyard bully while the teachers and administration (Us and the rest of Israel’s enablers) lets this continue on.  

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9 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

This situation obviously sucks for the Palestinians. We all should have the freedom to exist and be able to do so without a threat of lead falling from the sky that could kill us at any moment. 
 

I do not believe that any of us will live long enough to see a two state solution implemented nor will the bickering that leads to outright violence ever stop. If I was the president of a country of people who embraced different cultures and didn’t have 40 percent or so of it that hates brown people I would offer every single Palestinian full citizenship that would want to take it. They are entitled to have the ability to live life without the fear of death hanging over them. We get one life and so much of theirs is wasted by their neighbor being a schoolyard bully while the teachers and administration (Us and the rest of Israel’s enablers) lets this continue on.  

I think we will. And I agree about citizenship for those who want it. I think most will.

The issue are these.

1- How do you ever fix the animosity on both sides?

2- What do you do with those who do not want this solution? The hardline on both sides.

3- How to integrate?

4- How do you stop the expansion of settlements?

The existence of Arab Israelis, many who serve in the IDF, shows it can work.

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10 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

I think we will. And I agree about citizenship for those who want it. I think most will.

The issue are these.

1- How do you ever fix the animosity on both sides?

2- What do you do with those who do not want this solution? The hardline on both sides.

3- How to integrate?

4- How do you stop the expansion of settlements?

The existence of Arab Israelis, many who serve in the IDF, shows it can work.

First, the things that we actually have direct control over. Stop just free dumping military arms and money into the region.  

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1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

First, the things that we actually have direct control over. Stop just free dumping military arms and money into the region.  

Israel makes a lot of their own shit. I agree about the heavy crap. But they make the small arms being used in the West Bank. They make a lot of their own drones, tanks, naval ships, missiles. Other than fighters, helicopters, and ammo, they are pretty self sufficient. Can you answer my points?

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24 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

I think we will. And I agree about citizenship for those who want it. I think most will.

The issue are these.

1- How do you ever fix the animosity on both sides? treat the west bank arabs with humanity, ease the brutality - the animosity will subside. The vast majority are ordinary people with families who simply want a normal life without being shot in the head. 

2- What do you do with those who do not want this solution? The hardline on both sides. - see #1, the hardliners will dissipate. See the 2 million Israeli Arabs who rarely even protest. 

3- How to integrate? remove the apartheid, that will happen once the west bank Arabs get citizenship. Not overnight, but change will take a few short years. 

4- How do you stop the expansion of settlements? not possible, Jews will continue to build endlessly into the west bank, but that's ok since that will become officially Israel. 

The existence of Arab Israelis, many who serve in the IDF, shows it can work. The Arab Israeli community is itself divided into loyalists -- Druze & Bedouin (generally) are with the Jews, the rest of the Muslim Arabs don't join the IDF. 

answers 

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19 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

I think we will. And I agree about citizenship for those who want it. I think most will.

The issue are these.

1- How do you ever fix the animosity on both sides?

2- What do you do with those who do not want this solution? The hardline on both sides.

3- How to integrate?

4- How do you stop the expansion of settlements?

The existence of Arab Israelis, many who serve in the IDF, shows it can work.

The animosity is something we cannot fix. This goes back to Old Testament times for each of them. That level of dislike, hatred, distrust is something that is out of any of our hands. Again that sucks, but sometimes there are things that will not change.

If I could take the hardliners on each side that continue to prod and provoke anger to an island and leave them all there to fight it out to the death I’d readily do it if it meant cooler and more sensible people could come together from each side.

If I could take the Palestinians that want to come here I would do it and I would get the ones capable of working into a career field they are either already in or qualified to be in as well as getting them started with housing. Perhaps an apartment relative to the size of their family. Again this would require a society that doesn’t have millions that hate brown people to make it work.

You want to see the settlement expansion stop? You stop giving leeway to the leadership in Israel to be pricks. You stop handing them weapons and weapon systems that kill people by the bushel. Israel keeps doing what they do because there is no one stopping them. Again this whole settlement thing also goes back to the Jews believing all this land to be theirs since God gave it to them. This ignores the parts where God sent them away from the land for being ungrateful idol worshipping clowns. That part always seems to be overlooked. He giveth and He taketh away. 
 

I do like that the IDF is an integrated unit with Arabs serving in it. The military here was ahead of the civilian population as well on integration as you well know. 
 

Overall I think you have to have two sides who want compromise. This is not that situation. The best case would be to tell the Palestinians to pack their bags for America and a life where they can not have to live like prisoners. That would be my course of action. We can never be diverse enough in my opinion. 

 

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26 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Israel makes a lot of their own shit. I agree about the heavy crap. But they make the small arms being used in the West Bank. They make a lot of their own drones, tanks, naval ships, missiles. Other than fighters, helicopters, and ammo, they are pretty self sufficient. Can you answer my points?

Yes, I totally agree. They have a highly functional and sophisticated arms industry (admittedly built with our subsidizing). All the more reason to stop sending them more American taxpayer funded shit. 

1- How to fix the animosity on both sides? Holy fuck if this is our responsibility to fix. I tell you that whatever we are doing right now certainly is not helping. Stop arming them to kill each other though may be a good start. 

2- What to do about the hardlines? Stop sending them money and weapons. 

3- How to integrate? Take a firm and unwavering stand against apartheid.

4- Settlements? Maybe for one stop cock blocking every security council resolution on the matter and conditioning all further aid packages on winding them down and returning to a lawful posture.

 

We have very limited ability to control the actions of either Israel or the Palestinians. We only control ourselves. And with that of course, we control the flow of American guns and money. So that imo is where we should start.  

 

Edited by Anastasis
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20 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Least surprising news of the month?

Tonight has Proven that Israel has the Ability and the Capability to launch Strikes against Iranian Territory without almost anyone knowing it’s coming and likely without the Support of the United States.

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39 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

Tonight has Proven that Israel has the Ability and the Capability to launch Strikes against Iranian Territory without almost anyone knowing it’s coming and likely without the Support of the United States.

They're not that far apart, did anyone think otherwise?

e: I've lost my mind and replied to the weird racist OSINT nerd haven't I gdit

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1 hour ago, BrickHorn said:

That’s 100% bullshit. 

Yeah, I’ve got other replies I want to make when I have time. But Jews and Arabs were living together in Palestine in relative peace prior to the Zionist movement and the Balfour Declaration. Those Jews were more similar culturally to their Arab neighbors.

The influx of of European culture, from both the west and the east (for our Western sensibilities it should be noted that that included Bolshevik ideologies brought along with Eastern European Jews from nascent Soviet territories), ruffled the feathers of indigenous peoples on both sides, Arabs and Jews alike.

Judaism isn’t a monolith. (And anti-Zionism =/= anti-Semitism.)

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22 hours ago, Gengs1 said:

The lead paragraphs:

image.png.ff256e455b98b78706064a5f64f84af2.png

This is an embarrassing proposal that some geniuses on the panel must think is pretty subtle. "You see, we can sanction certain units. It's looks like we're doing something, but we're really not. Nobody will notice. Hee hee."

As a response to "serious human rights abuses," it's a transparent fig leaf placed atop our slavish dedication to Israel no matter what their policies are. We sold them a bunch of 2000-pound bombs a few weeks ago amid the other support for their fake "war" in Gaza. We support a campaign of high explosive bombs against neighborhoods and use of famine to displace an entire population.

I'm thinking Blinken, whom I know nothing about, probably sees this quarter-measure for what it is and how it would play. It's worse than doing nothing. Doing nothing is at least honest even if it's otherwise wicked.

The press ballyhoos this as though the sanctions would mean something. They would mean something to idiots in the press who refuse to think critically. But hey! They got a scoop and have made it into pap for Idiot World. Any moment, the panels on CNN and elsewhere will talk about "signals." What kind of signal is this? That analysis passes as intelligent as well.

American foreign policy is cheap theater entertainment for the masses here. It's worse now that the GOP has decided their interests are more important than the interests of the United States.

Pathetic.

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14 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

This goes back to Old Testament times for each of them.

You and I are in agreement on the issues. I just take issue with this line that is often repeated. Jews lived in Palestine prior to the creation of modern Israel. The history of this conflict dates back to the creation of Israel after WW2.

In antiquity, empires were rolling in and out of this area. I'm reading "Jerusalem" at the moment which is a history of that city starting from scratch. Great book. There was no particular animus between what is now Palestine and the different national forms of the Jewish state (comprised of Judah and Israel).

The imperial ambitions and violence of those times were the norm. Sometimes you were on top, sometimes the bottom, sometimes just hanging on. 

Again, I agree with where you stand on the issues.

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29 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

You and I are in agreement on the issues. I just take issue with this line that is often repeated.

It’s a thought-terminating cliche. An attempt to stifle debate and inspire “What are ya gonna do?” shrugs, rather than dig in and understand the conflict. The biblical connotations make it extra effective at shutting down any critical thought.

And yeah, I thought twice about calling out @UpperWestside specifically on this because his views on the issues seem generally reasonable. But he has repeated this particular canard and it’s a dangerous one.

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1 hour ago, BrickHorn said:

It’s a thought-terminating cliche. An attempt to stifle debate and inspire “What are ya gonna do?” shrugs, rather than dig in and understand the conflict. The biblical connotations make it extra effective at shutting down any critical thought.

And yeah, I thought twice about calling out @UpperWestside specifically on this because his views on the issues seem generally reasonable. But he has repeated this particular canard and it’s a dangerous one.

Evangelicals and the like are the most dangerous Americans. 

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2 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

You and I are in agreement on the issues. I just take issue with this line that is often repeated. Jews lived in Palestine prior to the creation of modern Israel. The history of this conflict dates back to the creation of Israel after WW2.

In antiquity, empires were rolling in and out of this area. I'm reading "Jerusalem" at the moment which is a history of that city starting from scratch. Great book. There was no particular animus between what is now Palestine and the different national forms of the Jewish state (comprised of Judah and Israel).

The imperial ambitions and violence of those times were the norm. Sometimes you were on top, sometimes the bottom, sometimes just hanging on. 

Again, I agree with where you stand on the issues.

1890s and the first Jewish Zionist settlers in the area after WW1 generally speaking, but a few incidents in the 1900-1917 period as well. 

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2 hours ago, BrickHorn said:

It’s a thought-terminating cliche. An attempt to stifle debate and inspire “What are ya gonna do?” shrugs, rather than dig in and understand the conflict. The biblical connotations make it extra effective at shutting down any critical thought.

And yeah, I thought twice about calling out @UpperWestside specifically on this because his views on the issues seem generally reasonable. But he has repeated this particular canard and it’s a dangerous one.

There’s no attempt to stifle any debate. You can go back and forth into perpetuity if you want to. The evidence shown says that we will not see these two groups of people sit down and come to an agreement that stops the violence. The big brother right now is unloading almost everything in the arsenal and the little brother in this scenario will look to get revenge at some point and the violence starts all over again. It is not going to stop and we as westerners think we can just ride in and save the day. We cannot and will not.

Mentioning that both of these two peoples share common ancestry is nothing new. That a large part of it went to Egypt and came back to take it several centuries later because “God told them it was their promised land of milk and honey” meant they came back and either slaughtered, ejected or enslaved the locals who were there in the centuries that the Jews were gone. I would imagine that should the US still be here in 3000 years (I know, I know) that there will still be Indigenous people’s ancestors who want their original land back. That’s humans being humans. Palestinians deserve to have their ancestral lands back intact, but there is a greater chance of the Lakers asking me to be their new shooting guard than that happening. I abhor violence and hate to see it in any form against anyone, but here we are. I would rather just take every Palestinian and move them here to have a better life. Human beings as a whole hold bitter grudges and will never stop trying to kill one another as long as at least two of us exist.

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11 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

There’s no attempt to stifle any debate. You can go back and forth into perpetuity if you want to. The evidence shown says that we will not see these two groups of people sit down and come to an agreement that stops the violence.

Your understanding of the history of this conflict is fucked. The idea that Jews and Palestinians have always fought and always will is a lie. I can’t put it any more politely than that. 

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42 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

Your understanding of the history of this conflict is fucked. The idea that Jews and Palestinians have always fought and always will is a lie. I can’t put it any more politely than that. 

Your understanding that not always fighting means they are cool with each other is off the mark. Nowhere have I said they have always fought. I stated plainly that the origins of this go back three millennia. You look at everything through your western lens and not the lens of the people that have historically had control of their ancestral homeland. The Palestinians want their home back and the heavily armed Israelis are not giving them anything. We’ll both be long gone and this conflict between these two ancient peoples will still be ongoing. 

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26 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

Your understanding that not always fighting means they are cool with each other is off the mark. Nowhere have I said they have always fought. I stated plainly that the origins of this go back three millennia. You look at everything through your western lens and not the lens of the people that have historically had control of their ancestral homeland. The Palestinians want their home back and the heavily armed Israelis are not giving them anything. We’ll both be long gone and this conflict between these two ancient peoples will still be ongoing. 

This is, plainly put, horse shit. You are literally parroting the default western position. A position that has been cynically used for decades to outsource western guilt for allowing/participating in pogroms and the Holocaust directly to Palestinians.

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7 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

You look at everything through your western lens and not the lens of the people that have historically had control of their ancestral homeland.

UW, I know that you are a sincere poster coming from a good place at heart. This above is wrong headed though. With sincerity, I would like to suggest a couple books that I think you might enjoy and would find some interesting perspective. I'd be happy to send you either one or both. 

https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Brothers-Dramatic-Palestinian-Christian/dp/154090217X

https://www.amazon.com/Holy-Mountain-Journey-Christians-Middle/dp/0307948897

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

Congress is going to send another $15 Billion , or maybe that was the first $15 Billion, I've lost track how much those murderous aholes are getting.  Anyway, the interesting part is $9 million has been allocated to Gaza aid.  $15 billion to kill them, $9 mil to anyone left alive.  

Yep, numbers are real fucked up. And at the same time we have police training programs in the West Bank.

And of that aid, how much will get down to those that really need it? Fund fucking conferences in Geneva to talk about the situation. Yeah, aid is used for that.

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Yep, numbers are real fucked up. And at the same time we have police training programs in the West Bank.
And of that aid, how much will get down to those that really need it? Fund fucking conferences in Geneva to talk about the situation. Yeah, aid is used for that.

Wait…are we training their cops to not protect citizens and actually abuse and kill them…or are they training OUR cops to do that?
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15 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


Wait…are we training their cops to not protect citizens and actually abuse and kill them…or are they training OUR cops to do that?

We train Palestinian Authority police officers. We did it in Gaza before Hamas took over as well.

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7 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

We train Palestinian Authority police officers. We did it in Gaza before Hamas took over as well.

But how do they know who to harass and target if everyone is a shade of brown?

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13 hours ago, Anastasis said:

UW, I know that you are a sincere poster coming from a good place at heart. This above is wrong headed though. With sincerity, I would like to suggest a couple books that I think you might enjoy and would find some interesting perspective. I'd be happy to send you either one or both. 

https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Brothers-Dramatic-Palestinian-Christian/dp/154090217X

https://www.amazon.com/Holy-Mountain-Journey-Christians-Middle/dp/0307948897

 

 

 

Thanks for recs but come on everything is written with a slanted view. I  tend to agree with UW view of this, yes this current conflict can be traced to the creation of Israel by Western powers, but prior to that jews and muslims were not all kumbya holding hands everything great buddy. Yes there were times of "peace" but whichever sect was ruling was happy, the others were not, throughout history muslims have committed genocide to jews (and vice versa), it was one the first acts muhammed did when he came to power.

I think anyone who is jumping on UW or anyone else for mentioning the history between the two tribes and saying this only because of the creation of Israel and ignoring the deep seated animosity built up over the centuries is being naive and or ignorant. History is what shapes us and many of you are way too intelligent to ignore the history of jews and muslims and view this current conflict in a vacuum

 

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