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SmokeyBear1861

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2 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

He shouldn’t be doing this.  “Offering California’s support” - what, do the individual states get to conduct their own foreign policy now?

i'm curious if it's with a group of governors or state officials.  it's interesting either way.  he's in charge of the state with the world's 5th largest economy and a lot of his biggest donors are jewish, so maybe he feels like getting more involved.

and offering support isn't "conducting foreign policy", i think it's more of a humanitarian thing, and yeah, possibly cash.

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2 hours ago, chainsaw said:

I'm a proponent of paying substantial reparations to the descendants of slaveholders and displaced indigenous people. As for returning land, I am in favor of it where it is feasible. I haven't looked too closely at the feasibility of returning land to indigenous people, but my understanding is that the feasibility can vary depending on what land we're talking about and other factors. Where returning particular lands to particular people is not feasible, I am in favor of granting different land to them of comparable quality and paying monetary compensation to them to account for the shortcoming.

To me, that is the only morally defensible answer.

You've got yourself a deal!

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1 hour ago, chainsaw said:

Israel and the US need to re-examine the way they have approached the peace process. Historically, the negotiations have been in bad faith and one-sided, with the imposition of unacceptable conditions from the outset seemingly for the purpose of all but guaranteeing that the negotiations would fail.

What are these unacceptable conditions you speak of?

 

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27 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Okay well if you're biased against reparations, just say that. That doesn't change the reality that reparations are the only moral option for the sins of displacement and slavery.

I'll say it, paying reparations is the dumbest idea in this thread. 

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20 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

 Israel has a duty to protect those Jews by making different decisions— and things start to get little muddled.

I agree it's not a fair position to put a government in. Israel was supposed to be a place for Jews to call home, to feel safe, and to be safe. That's an important project, especially after the Holocaust. And keeping that in mind, it's maybe the biggest overlooked aspect of October 7. The fundamental premise of Israel was punctured in a way it never has been before by the massacres of October 7.

The justifications that have been given for the occupation have almost always been: security. If it isn't even delivering on that, then maybe we should be listening to the anti-war Jewish voices.

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1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

Of course. Israel's power necessitates that it be the bigger man, so to speak. That means ending its policy of oppression. 

....for zero promise of security.  Don't forget that.  That's important.  "Give the Palestinians a complete free hand, and hope like hell they don't use that free hand to murder our citizens."  That's a big ask.  No sane state or people in the world would ever take you up on it.

38 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

He shouldn’t be doing this.  “Offering California’s support” - what, do the individual states get to conduct their own foreign policy now?

I mean....

25 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

Gov. Hotwheels seems to think they can. 

....yeah.

11 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I'll say it, paying reparations is the dumbest idea in this thread. 

Correct.  It's an insanely unrealistic unicorns shitting rainbows idea, and always has been.  Nevermind the foolish impracticalities of it (e.g., when do you start and stop the clock?  Do members of other Mexican indigenous tribes get reparations from the Mexica/Aztecs, who murdered and enslaved them?  Or are reparations an offer only good against the white Europeans who later showed up and shredded the Aztecs (with, you know, the help of many of those other tribes)?

No, what kills it is its foundational premise: "assume with me that an entire nation state acts against its own interest."  That's not what nation states do.

To be clear, that concept would require me to cede my current home to representatives of the Comanche tribe.  And not just me -- every non-native American Texan landowner would have to cede their land to the tribal inhabitants when "the white man showed up" (again, we'll conveniently ignore any tribal wars/conquest that happened before then).  Nope.  Never gonna happen.  Might as well propose that we create an alternate planet Earth, that has a better chance of happening.  Any realistic proposal has to take into account basic human behavior and standards.  No people is going to act entirely against their own interests.

10 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I agree it's not a fair position to put a government in. Israel was supposed to be a place for Jews to call home, to feel safe, and to be safe. That's an important project, especially after the Holocaust. And keeping that in mind, it's maybe the biggest overlooked aspect of October 7. The fundamental premise of Israel was punctured in a way it never has been before by the massacres of October 7.

The justifications that have been given for the occupation have almost always been: security. If it isn't even delivering on that, then maybe we should be listening to the anti-war Jewish voices.

Maybe we should also read a history book.  In periods when Israel was NOT doing the oppressive shit you presently complain about (and again, I don't disagree with the criticism)......did its Palestinian neighbors grant it security?  Fuck no.

Any realistic eyes see that Israel will NEVER have full security.  Palestine and its allies will always devote material energy to trying to end the Israeli state and murder its citizens.  The only calculus for Israel is "which option makes me LESS secure?"  And the track record says that minding your own business leads to full-scale invasion.  Either way, Israel is making an existential bet on behalf of its citizens. Most any other state would say "yeah, I'll make that bet.  It will be the bet that involves me keeping a gun in my hand."

"All Israel has to do is disregard decades upon decades of Palestinians and their allies pledging to wipe Israel off the map, and act completely against its self interest, and surrender and hand over all land to Palestinians."  Oh.  Who knew it was that easy?  Unconditional surrender.  Why didn't you just say so?

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21 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I'll say it, paying reparations is the dumbest idea in this thread. 

I think my claim of Ireland and Neanderthal territory is dumber(er).   The only positive serious reply would have been "good luck with that." 

 

 

Maybe something about my return to my Irish Kingdom could have been cleverly included

 who is that GIF

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1 minute ago, Nivek said:

I think my claim of Ireland and Neanderthal territory is dumber(er).   The only positive serious reply would have been "good luck with that." 

 

 

Maybe something about my return to my Irish Kingdom could have been cleverly included

 who is that GIF

You're Irish.  Nobody is worried about your claims.  We could give the whole kit and caboodle back to you, we'd have it all back before the end of the weekend, and you'd be too drunk to notice.

What, are we not able to stereotype the Irish around here?  I'm sorry, I thought this was America.

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1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

You're Irish.  Nobody is worried about your claims.  We could give the whole kit and caboodle back to you, we'd have it all back before the end of the weekend, and you'd be too drunk to notice.

What, are we not able to stereotype the Irish around here?  I'm sorry, I thought this was America.

 

IMG_0253.jpeg

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55 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

i'm curious if it's with a group of governors or state officials.  it's interesting either way.  he's in charge of the state with the world's 5th largest economy and a lot of his biggest donors are jewish, so maybe he feels like getting more involved.

and offering support isn't "conducting foreign policy", i think it's more of a humanitarian thing, and yeah, possibly cash.

NY should lead this charge as the home of the largest population of Orthodox Jews and Jewish/Hebrew diaspora.

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30 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

....for zero promise of security.  Don't forget that.  That's important.  "Give the Palestinians a complete free hand, and hope like hell they don't use that free hand to murder our citizens."  That's a big ask.  No sane state or people in the world would ever take you up on it.

No one is saying Israel shouldn't be concerned about its security. Israel (with military and economic support from its allies) can take care of itself. 

National defense, however, doesn't mean you get to oppress your neighbors without expecting some unfortunate push back.

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5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

No one is saying Israel shouldn't be concerned about its security. Israel (with military and economic support from its allies) can take care of itself. 

National defense, however, doesn't mean you get to oppress your neighbors without expecting some unfortunate push back.

Honest question, I your mind, what is the solution?  

I ask because you seem to be proposing a 2 state solution whereby Israel goes back to the 1948 borders, but that has been repeatedly rejected by the Palestinians for over 75 years.  So aside from Israel ceasing to exist, what do you propose?

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1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

Honest question, I your mind, what is the solution?  

I ask because you seem to be proposing a 2 state solution whereby Israel goes back to the 1948 borders, but that has been repeatedly rejected by the Palestinians for over 75 years.  So aside from Israel ceasing to exist, what do you propose?

Stop treating ordinary Palestinians like Hamas, end the blockade of Gaza, and remove the settlements in the West Bank.

Start there and see what happens. 

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2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Stop treating ordinary Palestinians like Hamas, end the blockade of Gaza, and remove the settlements in the West Bank.

Start there and see what happens. 

I like that plan.  Truly, I do.  I think Israel should do each of those things.

In response, what should the Palestinians do?  And...what do you think they'll actually do?  Because in such matters, "what comes next" is important.

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Just now, Brisketexan said:

I like that plan.  Truly, I do.  I think Israel should do each of those things.

In response, what should the Palestinians do?  And...what do you think they'll actually do?  Because in such matters, "what comes next" is important.

Ordinary Palestinians should go about their lives. Those who claim to represent Palestinians should use Isreal's good will as an opportunity to better govern their people while moving toward a two state solution. I have no idea if that would actually happen. If it doesn't, I expect the cycle of violence and retribution to continue.

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6 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Stop treating ordinary Palestinians like Hamas, end the blockade of Gaza, and remove the settlements in the West Bank.

Start there and see what happens. 

As I mentioned several pages ago, I agree.

But in practice this hasn't worked.  In 2005 Israel dismantled all their settlements in Gaza.  Spoiler Alert:  Hamas still attacked Israel.

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25 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

No one is saying Israel shouldn't be concerned about its security. Israel (with military and economic support from its allies) can take care of itself. 

National defense, however, doesn't mean you get to oppress your neighbors without expecting some unfortunate push back.

 

16 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Honest question, I your mind, what is the solution?  

I ask because you seem to be proposing a 2 state solution whereby Israel goes back to the 1948 borders, but that has been repeatedly rejected by the Palestinians for over 75 years.  So aside from Israel ceasing to exist, what do you propose?

 

13 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Stop treating ordinary Palestinians like Hamas, end the blockade of Gaza, and remove the settlements in the West Bank.

Start there and see what happens. 

 

10 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I like that plan.  Truly, I do.  I think Israel should do each of those things.

In response, what should the Palestinians do?  And...what do you think they'll actually do?  Because in such matters, "what comes next" is important.

I think that plan is a start. I also think the two state borders should be established and respected by Israel even if Palestine doesn't officially agree. Outside those borders, leave everyday Palestinians alone. Stop treating them as prisoners or as subordinate to an occupying force. Focus solely on protecting Israel from terrorism, not Palestinians in general.

The fact is terrorism will exist. It's too late to fix that problem. Once occupied land was taken and given to another group by force, it was inevitable that the inhabitants at the time weren't going to just sit by and not push back. Israel has enormous resources they can put towards preventing terrorism the best they can. Not the best comparison but I see some parallels with guns in the United States. It's too late for gun control to really work and we've just had to accept that mass shootings will be a regular occurrence.

If life were better for everyday Palestinians, there is less likelihood that some will resort to terrorism. I actually think terrorist events would be less in Israel than mass shootings are in the US. But they will occur and its not sustainable to say that even the possibility of terrorism means that everyday Palestinians should be treated as second class people.

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5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Ordinary Palestinians should go about their lives. Those who claim to represent Palestinians should use Isreal's good will as an opportunity to better govern their people while moving toward a two state solution. I have no idea if that would actually happen. If it doesn't, I expect the cycle of violence and retribution to continue.

And if it doesn't and Palestine (the government, not each of the individual 2.5mm people) does what it's always done and agitated for more with violence, are you going to just pick up the needle and reset it at the beginning of your loop of "Israel did XYZ for XYZ number of years and they need to make the first step here, etc. etc."?

Because I think that's the risk here. You give, yet again, an inch, a mile gets taken, and then somehow it's still not good enough or in good faith.

Edited by BeardIP
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Just now, BeardIP said:

And if it doesn't and Palestine (the government, not each of the individual 2.5mm people) does what it's always done and agitated for more with violence, are you going to just pick up the needle and reset it at the beginning of your loop of "Israel did XYZ for XYZ number of years and they need to make the first step here, etc. etc."?

Because I think that's the risk here. You give, yet again, an inch, a mile gets taken, and then somehow it's still not good enough or in good faith.

The only other option is to keep doing what you're doing in the hopes that endless cycles of violence don't lead to the type of internal politics that threaten the state of Israel as we know it.

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1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

Who's in a better position to eliminate Hamas? Israel or some of the poorest people in the Middle East?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you missed the "with the help of Israel" part...or hell, if they don't want to work with Israel, how about Egypt.  You know they are part of the Gaza blockade too, right?

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5 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you missed the "with the help of Israel" part...or hell, if they don't want to work with Israel, how about Egypt.  You know they are part of the Gaza blockade too, right?

So you expect ordinary Palestinians to work with Israel to eliminate Hamas when they are required to stay in Gaza?

I mean, maybe.

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2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

So you expect ordinary Palestinians to work with Israel to eliminate Hamas when they are required to stay in Gaza?

I mean, maybe.

If they want peace, yes.

It's not complicated.  Hamas and their refusal to recognize the legitimacy of Israel are the problem. 

Here's the latest update to Hamas' "charter" from way back in 2017.

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53 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I like that plan.  Truly, I do.  I think Israel should do each of those things.

In response, what should the Palestinians do?  And...what do you think they'll actually do?  Because in such matters, "what comes next" is important.

It is important, but as I've said numerous times, the only two realistic paths forward are killing them all or Israel starting the ball rolling by doing each of those things. Palestinians have nothing to offer besides a continued state of baseline survival and lashing out vs. what they and plenty of others believe to be unconscionable oppression.

At that point, there will either be no Palestinians left in Gaza and the West Bank, or hopefully Israel's hypothetical actions would be seen as an adequate olive branch.

Of course, the most likely outcome is that Israel rolls into Gaza and annexes all of it, or at least the northern part, and then the violence on both sides resumes/continues to escalate. West Bank Palestinians will continue to be murdered and have their homes stolen by motherfuckers from Brooklyn.

The cycle continues unabated and all of the "former Republicans" here can go back to quietly hating browns. Ok, come on, that was a joke.

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16 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

If they want peace, yes.

It's not complicated.  Hamas and their refusal to recognize the legitimacy of Israel are the problem. 

Here's the latest update to Hamas' "charter" from way back in 2017.

Again, for the millionth time, yes Hamas is a problem, and a big one, but the idea that they're the only problem is a ridiculous canard.

Again, for the millionth time, there is no Hamas presence in the West Bank, and yet those people continue to be killed and have their homes stolen by Israeli settlers, with the backing of the Israeli government. Again, for the millionth time, what's the excuse there?

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18 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Palestinians have nothing to offer besides a continued state of baseline survival and lashing out vs. what they and plenty of others believe to be unconscionable oppression.

Nothing to offer? Is there anything stopping the Palestinians from flourishing in the West Bank? (Yes, I know Israel. Let’s assume Israel stops all settlement in the West Bank and removes any current or prior settlements).

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1 minute ago, Neonmoon said:

Nothing to offer? Is there anything stopping the Palestinians from flourishing in the West Bank? (Yes, I know Israel. Let’s assume Israel stops all settlement in the West Bank and removes any current or prior settlements).

I mean Palestinians in Gaza specifically.

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21 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

This part of the data is troubling for Israelis 

Quote

57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas—along with similar percentages of Palestinians in the West Bank (52%) and East Jerusalem (64%)—though Gazans who express this opinion of Hamas are fewer than the number of Gazans who have a positive view of Fatah (64%).

 

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25 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

t is important, but as I've said numerous times, the only two realistic paths forward are killing them all or Israel starting the ball rolling by doing each of those things. Palestinians have nothing to offer besides a continued state of baseline survival and lashing out vs. what they and plenty of others believe to be unconscionable oppression.

At that point, there will either be no Palestinians left in Gaza and the West Bank, or hopefully Israel's hypothetical actions would be seen as an adequate olive branch.

Of course, the most likely outcome is that Israel rolls into Gaza and annexes all of it, or at least the northern part, and then the violence on both sides resumes/continues to escalate. West Bank Palestinians will continue to be murdered and have their homes stolen by motherfuckers from Brooklyn.

I don't disagree with trying shit.  I do disagree that Palestinians have nothing to offer.  Start with this:

2 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:

“Half agreed that Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction.”

If you came to my house and told me that "hey, Brisket....good news.  Half of your neighbors agree that you shouldn't be wiped off the face of the earth," that would not be a particularly comforting conversation.  So, I'd counter that the Palestinians DO have something to offer....simply get to a majority belief that "Israel and jews can live."  That would be a great good-faith starting point.

But, I agree with you on the most likely outcome.  Half of Palestinians, give or take, will still believe that Israel should be destroyed.  Israel will continue to be an overbearing bull in a china shop and escalate violence in both Gaza and the West Bank, and sure as shit won't reform its ways of settlements and such.  The water crisis in the levant might yet be solved by watering the fields with blood.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  There's no realistic hope for any peace there.  Not in the lifetimes of our grandchildren's grandchildren.

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Too be fair in criticizing Israel, it strikes me that Israel is trying to subjugate a people in a modern era where you can’t do that anymore. It’s like  if Dick Butkus tried to play Mike linebacker today. Israel needs to understand you can’t choke a nation out until there is no will or fight left— the world is too flat and cameras too 4k.

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4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I don't disagree with trying shit.  I do disagree that Palestinians have nothing to offer.  Start with this:

If you came to my house and told me that "hey, Brisket....good news.  Half of your neighbors agree that you shouldn't be wiped off the face of the earth," that would not be a particularly comforting conversation.  So, I'd counter that the Palestinians DO have something to offer....simply get to a majority belief that "Israel and jews can live."  That would be a great good-faith starting point.

But, I agree with you on the most likely outcome.  Half of Palestinians, give or take, will still believe that Israel should be destroyed.  Israel will continue to be an overbearing bull in a china shop and escalate violence in both Gaza and the West Bank, and sure as shit won't reform its ways of settlements and such.  The water crisis in the levant might yet be solved by watering the fields with blood.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  There's no realistic hope for any peace there.  Not in the lifetimes of our grandchildren's grandchildren.

I should have clarified that I don't believe Palestinians in Gaza specifically have anything to offer Israel at the negotiating table that the Israeli government will care about.

God it really gets tiring trying to get people to read your words correctly but I admit this one is my fault.

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Just now, BeardIP said:

Too be fair in criticizing Israel, it strikes me that Israel is trying to subjugate a people in a modern era where you can’t do that anymore. It’s like  if Dick Butkus tried to play Mike linebacker today. Israel needs to understand you can’t chick a nation out until there is no will or fight left— the world is too flat and cameras too 4k.

I think a lot of people have trouble with the irony of Israel's treatment of Palestinians given what happened in the Holocaust.

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2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I should have clarified that I don't believe Palestinians in Gaza specifically have anything to offer Israel at the negotiating table that the Israeli government will care about.

Yeah....even with the clarification, I don't think that "maybe get to a point where a real-deal majority of you don't call for the extermination of Israel and the jews" is a big ask.  For fuck's sake, I probably agree with most every other ask they would have, save and except asks that amount to "Israel is gone, either by use of force or by their willing surrender and evacuation of the levant."  But a starting point of "Fine....I no longer call for your genocide" is a really, really important starting point.

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1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

I think a lot of people have trouble with the irony of Israel's treatment of Palestinians given what happened in the Holocaust.

Indeed.

Yet it's also predictable (you know, how we think that a violent response of the Palestinians is predictable) that a people who have been REPEATEDLY subjected to calls for their extermination, including a holocaust within living memory that damn near got the job done, and then numerous wars seeking the same, and facing a current foe that pledges to do the same, MIGHT react a little viscerally.

TLDR; people who have been repeatedly subjected to actual acts and attempts at genocide are gonna have a BIT of a hair trigger when you call for their genocide and kill their innocents.

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7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Indeed.

Yet it's also predictable (you know, how we think that a violent response of the Palestinians is predictable) that a people who have been REPEATEDLY subjected to calls for their extermination, including a holocaust within living memory that damn near got the job done, and then numerous wars seeking the same, and facing a current foe that pledges to do the same, MIGHT react a little viscerally.

TLDR; people who have been repeatedly subjected to actual acts and attempts at genocide are gonna have a BIT of a hair trigger when you call for their genocide and kill their innocents.

Given the military disparity that exists in the Middle East, calls for the elimination of the state as Israel mean about as much as Death to America.

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19 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Biden telling Hamas that they “gotta learn how to shoot straight” is totally fucking awesome and makes me want to have more old-ass presidents. 
 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2023/10/18/press-gaggle-by-president-biden-and-nsc-coordinator-for-strategic-communications-john-kirby-ramstein-air-base-germany/

 

 

 

In a lot of ways, there's a lot to like about ol' Joe.  Being a career politician learns you some stuff.

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