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SmokeyBear1861

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Israel’s first concern is their children, maybe a couple dozen, taken and held hostage in Gaza. That is their first concern, and it should be. 
 
Think about them, Linux. Try to find a little sympathy for the Jewish children,  terrified and captive. Go ahead, denounce Hamas as cruel monsters. 

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23 minutes ago, statsman said:

Israel’s first concern is their children, maybe a couple dozen, taken and held hostage in Gaza. That is their first concern, and it should be. 
 
Think about them, Linux. Try to find a little sympathy for the Jewish children,  terrified and captive. Go ahead, denounce Hamas as cruel monsters. 

Oh I see the low end of the IQ bell curve is still playing the Do You Condemn game

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1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

Oh I see the low end of the IQ bell curve is still playing the Do You Condemn game

Ha-ha! You got me! I really am not the brightest. Since you have this all figured out, what should Israel do- its most hostile neighbors killing and stealing its citizens, and taking harbor in civilian population centers?

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Oh I see the low end of the IQ bell curve is still playing the Do You Condemn game

The UN played that game. Humanity lost.
It’s fucking mind boggling that they can demand a ceasefire (because killing civilians is bad), but can’t pass a resolution to condemn the October 7 attacks (because killing Israeli/Jewish civilians…well, that’s cool).

If you wonder why Israel and Jews aren’t interested in doing what outsiders say, the above is a really good example of why that is the case.

You want us to understand the anger and despair of Palestinians, and maybe give them a pass on how they lash out. But we gotta look right past the fact that the body that best reflects world opinion says “butchering Israelis is cool,” and also “Israel should cease any military response to the butchering of its civilians,” and how Israel and Jews rightly perceive that. It’s a fucking problem, man. An unsolvable one, apparently.
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1 minute ago, hobbes2702 said:

The thought of woman and children being killed is unfortunate, but part me feels they brought this on themselves”

 

The women and children just had it coming huh

 

maybe not directly but yes, as long as palestinians allow hamas to exists in its current capacity, they deserve every retaliatory strike Israel deems fitting. We laid waste to two separate countries when we were attacked, Israel is showing enormous restraint right now. As is the US seeing how they took American hostages too

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14 minutes ago, Smax said:

maybe not directly but yes, as long as palestinians allow hamas to exists in its current capacity, they deserve every retaliatory strike Israel deems fitting. We laid waste to two separate countries when we were attacked, Israel is showing enormous restraint right now. As is the US seeing how they took American hostages too

And lost.

 

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58 minutes ago, statsman said:

Ha-ha! You got me! I really am not the brightest. Since you have this all figured out, what should Israel do- its most hostile neighbors killing and stealing its citizens, and taking harbor in civilian population centers?

I'm not engaging in this conversation with you. We've been over and over this and around and around and back again. If you have anything new to say instead of taking the usual line of demanding perfect solutions from those of us standing up for Palestinians, then we can talk.

Otherwise, fuck yourself. I'm not rehashing what's been discussed over and over in this thread already.

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39 minutes ago, Smax said:

 

maybe not directly but yes, as long as palestinians allow hamas to exists in its current capacity, they deserve every retaliatory strike Israel deems fitting. We laid waste to two separate countries when we were attacked, Israel is showing enormous restraint right now. As is the US seeing how they took American hostages too

Israel and the US should show restraint and protect as much innocent life as possible. That’s the job.
You think the women and children have it coming because they haven’t overthrown the militaristic, terrorist organization that currently holds power. That’s insane and just some other way to justify killing innocent people.

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1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:


The UN played that game. Humanity lost.
It’s fucking mind boggling that they can demand a ceasefire (because killing civilians is bad), but can’t pass a resolution to condemn the October 7 attacks (because killing Israeli/Jewish civilians…well, that’s cool).

If you wonder why Israel and Jews aren’t interested in doing what outsiders say, the above is a really good example of why that is the case.

You want us to understand the anger and despair of Palestinians, and maybe give them a pass on how they lash out. But we gotta look right past the fact that the body that best reflects world opinion says “butchering Israelis is cool,” and also “Israel should cease any military response to the butchering of its civilians,” and how Israel and Jews rightly perceive that. It’s a fucking problem, man. An unsolvable one, apparently.

I assure you, my only desire is to not see anyone genocided or be forced to live under the conditions Gazans or Palestinians living in the West Bank have been and currently do, ever again.

Believe me, those of us advocating for people like you to recognize the humanity and dignity of Palestinians see exactly that in the Israeli people, and understand why Jews need to feel and be safe in this world.

I don't give a fuck about discussing UN dysfunction, it is a long playing broken record at this point. They don't fucking reflect world opinion on anything.

The Hamas attack already happened, everyone with a brain and heart condemns it, further condemnations don't fucking do anything but make Westerners feel better. A ceasefire could stop the killing, at least for now.

 

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I assure you, my only desire is to not see anyone genocided or be forced to live under the conditions Gazans or Palestinians living in the West Bank have been and currently do, ever again.
Believe me, those of us advocating for people like you to recognize the humanity and dignity of Palestinians see exactly that in the Israeli people, and understand why Jews need to feel and be safe in this world.
I don't give a fuck about discussing UN dysfunction, it is a long playing broken record at this point. They don't fucking reflect world opinion on anything.
The Hamas attack already happened, everyone with a brain and heart condemns it, further condemnations don't fucking do anything but make Westerners feel better. A ceasefire could stop the killing, at least for now.
 

Except everyone does not condemn the Hamas attack. What you are saying is false. And there is a REASON for that: a deep strain of antisemitism, including a desire to exterminate Jews, that runs around the world. Your hand-waving past that misses a crucial point. Every day as a Jew is a pivot point, is a day the next desired (and it IS desired) genocide starts. Being born a Jew is a precarious existence. Always.
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1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:


Except everyone does not condemn the Hamas attack. What you are saying is false. And there is a REASON for that: a deep strain of antisemitism, including a desire to exterminate Jews, that runs around the world. Your hand-waving past that misses a crucial point. Every day as a Jew is a pivot point, is a day the next desired (and it IS desired) genocide starts. Being born a Jew is a precarious existence. Always.

I did not say everyone, mother fucker read my words. I swear to god I really don't want to have to put you on ignore for repeatedly, seemingly on purpose, twisting my words for no fucking good reason.

Repeatedly yelling into the void condemning the attack, while right, isn't going to make Nazis, extremist fundamentalist Muslim groups, or anyone else that hates Jews stop and think "well dang, maybe we're wrong here..."

God damn use that big brain of yours

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19 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I'm not engaging in this conversation with you. We've been over and over this and around and around and back again. If you have anything new to say instead of taking the usual line of demanding perfect solutions from those of us standing up for Palestinians, then we can talk.

Otherwise, fuck yourself. I'm not rehashing what's been discussed over and over in this thread already.

 

12 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Israel and the US should show restraint and protect as much innocent life as possible. That’s the job.
You think the women and children have it coming because they haven’t overthrown the militaristic, terrorist organization that currently holds power. That’s insane and just some other way to justify killing innocent people.

This is America. This moral dilemma has already been solved. 
 
The US was once faced with a vicious enemy that claimed not only willingness to die for their emperor, but also a desire to die in battle for their emperor. This enemy was sheltered among innocent civilian population centers. 
 
The US solved this Gordian knot by nuking two innocent civilian population centers, getting it through their thick skulls that they could all die, without killing any more US soldiers, and not accomplishing anything. 
 
This isn’t hard math. The Palestinians and their supporters are gambling that their foes possess more humanity and morality, more compassion than they do. History shows that’s a dumb bet. 

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3 hours ago, statsman said:

Israel’s first concern is their children, maybe a couple dozen, taken and held hostage in Gaza. That is their first concern, and it should be. 
 
Think about them, Linux. Try to find a little sympathy for the Jewish children,  terrified and captive. Go ahead, denounce Hamas as cruel monsters. 

What you have to understand is that the take here is basically this: Israel not only needs to care about Palestinian civilians more than Hamas does, but Israel should care more about Palestinian civilians more than ISRAELI civilians. 
 

An absurd standard. 

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2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

What you have to understand is that the take here is basically this: Israel not only needs to care about Palestinian civilians more than Hamas does, but Israel should care more about Palestinian civilians more than ISRAELI civilians. 
 

An absurd standard. 

Yea literally no one is saying that but have fun.

And fyi, Israel should care more about both Palestinian civilians and Israeli civilians more than Hamas does. It’s not some crazy thing to think that the Israeli gov should have more respect for civilian life than the terrorist org on the other side.

Edited by hobbes2702
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11 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Israel and the US should show restraint and protect as much innocent life as possible. That’s the job.
You think the women and children have it coming because they haven’t overthrown the militaristic, terrorist organization that currently holds power. That’s insane and just some other way to justify killing innocent people.

1. No thats not the job, the job is to defend and to win

2. No I think ALL palestinians are responsible

3. The justification was Oct 7 when hamas invaded and targeted civilians, time for the gloves to come off. People who grow up in war and brute force only respond to war and brute force. This is 3 weeks in, hostages haven't been released, rockets continue to hit civilian buildings in Israel, when is it enough?

The world is an ugly place, we have it so easy here in the usa and the majority of our population is fucking clueless as to how things on this rock actually work. It isnt kumbaya lets hold hands hug this out and be friends. 

Israel continues to warn civilians of incoming strikes, what palestinians do with that info is up to them, if they don't leave and end up getting killed, don't poke the bear

 

I posted this on the other thread and got little traction maybe 6 mins is too long for some focus but shes spot on IMO

 

 

 

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Just now, Smax said:

1. No thats not the job, the job is to defend and to win

2. No I think ALL palestinians are responsible

3. The justification was Oct 7 when hamas invaded and targeted civilians, time for the gloves to come off. People who grow up in war and brute force only respond to war and brute force. This is 3 weeks in, hostages haven't been released, rockets continue to hit civilian buildings in Israel, when is it enough?

The world is an ugly place, we have it so easy here in the usa and the majority of our population is fucking clueless as to how things on this rock actually work. It isnt kumbaya lets hold hands hug this out and be friends. 

Israel continues to warn civilians of incoming strikes, what palestinians do with that info is up to them, if they don't leave and end up getting killed, don't poke the bear

 

I posted this on the other thread and got little traction maybe 6 mins is too long for some focus but shes spot on IMO

 

 

 

Awesome. You support genocide. It shouldn’t be a shock based on who you’ve shown yourself to be.

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7 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Yea literally no one is saying that but have fun.

And fyi, Israel should care more about both Palestinian civilians and Israeli civilians more than Hamas does. It’s not some crazy thing to think that the Israeli gov should have more respect for civilian life than the terrorist org on the other side.

This is exactly what calls for a ceasefire amount to: Hamas, which just killed thousands of Israelis and will do so again, gets to regroup, rearm, remain in place, and keep hundreds of hostages. It is an ask for Israel to accept deaths and hostage taking of their own citizens now and in the future because the Palestinian death toll is too high as Hamas shelters among them. 

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7 minutes ago, Smax said:

The world is an ugly place, we have it so easy here in the usa and the majority of our population is fucking clueless as to how things on this rock actually work. It isnt kumbaya lets hold hands hug this out and be friends. 

I'm sure your grasp of the world is based in solid experience with war, suffering, and brutality. Or maybe it's just tired posturing by someone just as naive as the illusory Kumbaya singers your tritely describe.

Gloves off. Hard world. Gotta be a man. Gotta slaughter them Palestinians so you can get your vicarious macho on. 

To again paraphrase Henry Rollins:

You say it's a mans world. Well, this man's world is a poorly run carnage fest.

I don't know what the solutions are in the MidEast, but the United States should not be supporting what Israel is doing. No person is going to look back on this and say, "Yep, the Israeli Army was doing what had to be done by massive bombing and a ground assault on a densely populated urban landscape." 

This is an assault wholly based on emotion, political ambition, and blood lust.

Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel.

We should only be involved in humanitarian assistance and the protection of non-combatants no matter where they are located. Period.

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15 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Awesome. You support genocide. It shouldn’t be a shock based on who you’ve shown yourself to be.

Have you ever thought that Hamas is committing genocide on the Palestinian people? That the best chance for Palestinian survival is for Hamas to be eradicated, as soon as possible?

Edited by statsman
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6 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Questions for the board.

What would the Ceasefire look like?

What are the guarantees no new weapons go in?

Will Hamas allow Aid agencies to deliver direct to the population? 

Are we talking about a UN Peacekeeping force? 

Also, again, my lack of imagination for a solution to these problems is not a reason to blow up Gaza. That is not a solution either. Why does this have to be decided in a day to prevent the slaughter to come?

Some very smart people around here are running on emotion and seemingly cultivating sweet outrage to justify further outrages. 

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1 minute ago, RomaVicta said:

Also, again, my lack of imagination for a solution to these problems is not a reason to blow up Gaza. That is not a solution either. Why does this have to be decided in a day to prevent the slaughter to come?

Some very smart people around here are running on emotion and seemingly cultivating sweet outrage to justify further outrages. 

I am really interested. I have my thoughts. And have seen ceasefires go both ways. Some (few) work unless there is a force to control, monitor, etc. For instance, there is a peacekeeping mandate in Lebanon, but sides continue to arm. One UN Base was hit today. 

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7 minutes ago, statsman said:

Have you ever thought that Hamas is committing genocide on the Palestinian people? That the best chance for Palestinian survival is for Hamas to be eradicated, as soon as possible?

No fucking shit, have you ready ANY of this thread other than like, the last 2 pages? This is how I know you're an unserious person. Who in this thread is advocating for fucking Hamas?

Please, I am begging you, re-wrinkle your fucking brain.

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52 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


Except everyone does not condemn the Hamas attack. What you are saying is false. And there is a REASON for that: a deep strain of antisemitism, including a desire to exterminate Jews, that runs around the world. Your hand-waving past that misses a crucial point. Every day as a Jew is a pivot point, is a day the next desired (and it IS desired) genocide starts. Being born a Jew is a precarious existence. Always.

All things considered in the year 2023, what's more precarious, being born a Jew or being born a Palestinian?

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32 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I'm sure your grasp of the world is based in solid experience with war, suffering, and brutality. Or maybe it's just tired posturing by someone just as naive as the illusory Kumbaya singers your tritely describe.

Gloves off. Hard world. Gotta be a man. Gotta slaughter them Palestinians so you can get your vicarious macho on. 

To again paraphrase Henry Rollins:

You say it's a mans world. Well, this man's world is a poorly run carnage fest.

I don't know what the solutions are in the MidEast, but the United States should not be supporting what Israel is doing. No person is going to look back on this and say, "Yep, the Israeli Army was doing what had to be done by massive bombing and a ground assault on a densely populated urban landscape." 

This is an assault wholly based on emotion, political ambition, and blood lust.

Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel.

We should only be involved in humanitarian assistance and the protection of non-combatants no matter where they are located. Period.

While I understand the emotional resonance here, let’s distill down what this means: If your and well-organized adversary is based out of cities, you have to just let them exist and attack you.
 

There is no police action or low-intensity solution to Hamas, they control a well-armed and organized semi-regular force inside of cities and that is committed to using civilian infrastructure as their bases of operations. There is no option for Israel to choose different terrain.  A ceasefire is not an option, ceasefires exist to give space to diplomatic solutions which neither side has expressed a willingness for.

Incidentally, it is not a war crime to target military infrastructure and targets that are near or co-located with civilian infrastructure.  It is a war-crime to place military infrastructure in those areas, although of course Hamas is not party to those agreements. Every accusation is a confession absolutely applies here. 
 

“If your adversary is committed to doing war crimes, you just have to let them win,” is not a reasonable standard to expect any state to accept. 

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6 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

While I understand the emotional resonance here, let’s distill down what this means: If your and well-organized adversary is based out of cities, you have to just let them exist and attack you.
 

There is no police action or low-intensity solution to Hamas, they control a well-armed and organized semi-regular force inside of cities and that is committed to using civilian infrastructure as their bases of operations. There is no option for Israel to choose different terrain.  A ceasefire is not an option, ceasefires exist to give space to diplomatic solutions which neither side has expressed a willingness for.

Incidentally, it is not a war crime to target military infrastructure and targets that are near or co-located with civilian infrastructure.  It is a war-crime to place military infrastructure in those areas, although of course Hamas is not party to those agreements. Every accusation is a confession absolutely applies here. 
 

“If your adversary is committed to doing war crimes, you just have to let them win,” is not a reasonable standard to expect any state to accept. 

I have been called every kind of idiot for not understanding what they expect Israel to do, while they refuse to spell it out. I guess, Israel is to only use bombs that kill combatants, and not the innocent civilians next door? The soldiers are to use the rifles that only shoot bullets at the combatants, and are set to only stun the human shields?

I’m starting to think that there is a quiet part they don’t want to say out loud. 

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5 minutes ago, statsman said:

I have been called every kind of idiot for not understanding what they expect Israel to do, while they refuse to spell it out. I guess, Israel is to only use bombs that kill combatants, and not the innocent civilians next door? The soldiers are to use the rifles that only shoot bullets at the combatants, and are set to only stun the human shields?

I’m starting to think that there is a quiet part they don’t want to say out loud. 

Read the thread. 

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11 hours ago, linux said:

The bloodlust is rising and it is disgusting, only a ceasefire can prevent dead children and none of the logic I read has explained how they are responsible for anything.

Pretty sure there was a ceasefire dude.  Then a bunch of subhuman scum crossed the border and indiscriminately shot unarmed men, women and children point blank.   So here we are.  I'm sure Hamas would LOVE a ceasefire so they can ramp up and do the same fucking thing again.  Because a material portion of that populations sole goal in life is killing as many jews as they can.  Period.  That's it.  That's what they live for.   Fuck them.

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4 minutes ago, Skipper said:

Pretty sure there was a ceasefire dude.  Then a bunch of subhuman scum crossed the border and indiscriminately shot unarmed men, women and children point blank.   So here we are.  I'm sure Hamas would LOVE a ceasefire so they can ramp up and do the same fucking thing again.  Because a material portion of that populations sole goal in life is killing as many jews as they can.  Period.  That's it.  That's what they live for.   Fuck them.

There wasn’t even really a ceasefire. The Israelis sat behind their Iron Dome and accepted that it wouldn’t work perfectly (which means a certain amount of civilian death), because the costs of a military solution to Hamas wouldn’t be worth it.  Israel didn’t change that status quo, Hamas did.

 

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  No big chunk is supporting Hamas.   A big chunk is worried about escalation and other unwanted outcomes.  956 has the equation.  How many deaths will counter the Israeli deaths.   There is a worry the number gets too high.  Or is it not possible for it to get too high?

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12 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Meaning what, exactly?

Chanting or parroting shit like "from the river to the sea" either being so ignorant that they don't know what that means or knowing damn well what it means.   Whatever it is.  It's disgusting.

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This community is funny.  Some Republicans act like shitheads and there is a never ending river of histrionic "ALL REPUBLICANS ARE BABY BLOOD SUCKING VAMPIRES!".  Some left leaning groups support Palestinaians and/or Hamas and "they don't represent ALL of the left!".

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9 minutes ago, bernorange said:

This community is funny.  Some Republicans act like shitheads and there is a never ending river of histrionic "ALL REPUBLICANS ARE BABY BLOOD SUCKING VAMPIRES!".  Some left leaning groups support Palestinaians and/or Hamas and "they don't represent ALL of the left!".

Literally no one is supporting Hamas lmao this is such a bad lie you nerds keep repeating.

Hamas doesn't represent all Palestinians any more than Netanyahu represents all Jews, it's such a stupid fucking argument.

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1 hour ago, Skipper said:

I never had a big chunk of the "left" supporting Hamas (directly or indirectly, whatever, that's exactly what it is) and a big chunk of the "right" supporting Russia and Putin on my 2023 bingo card.  What a weird fucking timeline we live in.

No one is supporting Hamas but keep fucking that chicken 

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39 minutes ago, bernorange said:

This community is funny.  Some Republicans act like shitheads and there is a never ending river of histrionic "ALL REPUBLICANS ARE BABY BLOOD SUCKING VAMPIRES!".  Some left leaning groups support Palestinaians and/or Hamas and "they don't represent ALL of the left!".

Who is supporting Hamas?

The main “argument” is different interpretations of actions that should/should not be taken to remove Hamas. Mixed in with different interpretations of culpability due to historical actions 

 

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38 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Literally no one is supporting Hamas lmao this is such a bad lie you nerds keep repeating.

Hamas doesn't represent all Palestinians any more than Netanyahu represents all Jews, it's such a stupid fucking argument.

If you are pro "cease fire" you are supporting Hamas.  Full stop.   You don't just get to start a war by invading another country and intentionally killing women and children civillians point blank and call a time out.  That's not how the world works.    

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10 minutes ago, Skipper said:

If you are pro "cease fire" you are supporting Hamas.  Full stop.   You don't just get to start a war by invading another country and intentionally killing women and children civillians point blank and call a time out.  That's not how the world works.    

You're a fucking idiot. Wanting less people to die is not supporting Hamas no matter how much you want it to be. Fuck off, troll.

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11 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

It’s not the majority by any means, but I have seen quite a few “I support resistance by any means necessary” comments from American leftists.

It’s essential to emphasize the difference between Hamas and Palestine, but you guys gotta know what is being said out there before you flatly deny it.

Ok, who is doing that in this thread? People keep getting accused of it here without evidence. That doesn't seem to bother you, though, as long as there is someone to scold.

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13 minutes ago, Skipper said:

If you are pro "cease fire" you are supporting Hamas.  Full stop.   You don't just get to start a war by invading another country and intentionally killing women and children civillians point blank and call a time out.  That's not how the world works.    

Not only is that silly, it's counterproductive.

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I’m actually not opposed to a cease fire. I can see it as an element In resolution of this. 
 
I can’t see why any serious person can call for a ceasefire in THIS WAR THAT HAMAS STARTED without also calling for an immediate release of all of the hostages. Those people, the weakest attacked, are terrified and their families are terrified. 
 
I don’t see how anyone with a speck of empathy can say, “Israel, let’s slow your roll. Let calmer heads prevail. The hostages? Let’s not bring them into the equation. They’re just not a factor that helps.”

I know taking them was Hamas’ strategy to keep Israel from attacking, saying they would kill them if the IDF attacked. They need to release them. That’s a no-brainer precursor to a cease fire. 

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