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SmokeyBear1861

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3 minutes ago, Skipper said:

I certainly have no desire to debate the history. I dug into it college and didn't have answers then and certainly don't have answers or strong opinions on that now.  But I'm absolutely not critical of the initial response.  What happened on 10/7 deserved a massive response in my view.  Obviously it would be great if Hamas and other Jihadi assholes had their military bases and operations separate from civilian housing and infrastructure but that's not who they are.  Civilian casualties were unavoidable.  It's intentional Hamas strategy to maximize civilian casualties to gather indirect support (i.e., opposition to Israel) just like we've seen in this thread every time I check in. 

If we want to discuss a point in time it was appropriate for Israel to scale back operations (or for the U.S. to scale back it's support), I'm certainly open to that discussion.  But the vast majority of posters that are overtly critical of Israel in this thread drew that line in the sand way back in October (and for most, absolutely based on how they viewed regional politics and the history pre 10/7). 

You're a fucking clown ass.

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4 minutes ago, Skipper said:

I certainly have no desire to debate the history. I dug into it college and didn't have answers then and certainly don't have answers or strong opinions on that now.  But I'm absolutely not critical of the initial response.  What happened on 10/7 deserved a massive response in my view.

I think that we agree on more topics than disagree skipper, so this isn’t really directed in any way personally. But this is total nonsense and completely uncritical. This timeline didn’t start on Oct 7. 

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Just now, Brian Fantana said:

You're a fucking clown ass.

LOL.  I've seen enough of your shit post history to know this will be my one and only time to engage with your dumbass.  80% of your posts are just lazily bitching at people that don't agree with whatever bullshit opinion you have.  Particularly if you have groupthink support on this forum.  So good luck with all of that.  

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3 minutes ago, Skipper said:

 

LOL.  I've seen enough of your shit post history to know this will be my one and only time to engage with your dumbass.  80% of your posts are just lazily bitching at people that don't agree with whatever bullshit opinion you have.  Particularly if you have groupthink support on this forum.  So good luck with all of that.  

Bitch I don't give the smallest shit what you think. You came here and braindumped the standard boiler plate, Western media sculpted, basic bitch ass opinion on this conflict you can get from any one of the millions of TikTok trad wives as if you were being deep or insightful, and now you're welcome to scurry away and shut the fuck up.

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2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I think that we agree on more topics than disagree skipper, so this isn’t really directed in any way personally. But this is total nonsense and completely uncritical. This timeline didn’t start on Oct 7. 

It didn't.  And I'm not going to pretend to have a strong opinion from before that date.  Even at a point 20 years ago I was relatively well educated on the subject matter, I still didn't have a strong opinion that either side was "right".  And I did know enough from more recent history to realize that Bibi was a piece of shit well before all of this.  But 10/7 was a massive escalation (I would call it unprovoked, others would disagree, and then we would go in circles again) but it deserved a response.  Maybe I'm biased as I have clients with family there that were impacted so I heard personal stories.  Maybe if I had clients in Palestine instead and heard their stories my view might change. I don't know.  But I know you can't have terrorists invade your country targeting civilians and not respond. I'm just not going to have an issue with that.

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The idea that anywhere near a significant percentage of civilian casualties resulted from Hamas intentionally using civilians as shields is ridiculous. Israel has dropped more bombs on Gaza since 10/7 than we dropped on Dresden.

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15 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Dressing up like doctors is bad because Israel doesn’t want their own actual medics to be targeted on the battlefield, and they will claim that Hamas violates LOAC when they do. When one side introduces the possibility that medics are actually combatants that puts all medics at risk. This isn’t hard. 

 

11 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Yeah this is part of why doing shit like that is considered a war crime. Just increases the likelihood of medical support personnel on either side being targeted.

hamas's initial act of violence was the murdering and kidnapping of hundreds of civilians- an explicitly stated war crime in the geneva convention code.  they might bluster about this episode but they were never going to pass up the opportunity to kill a jew.  

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Just now, Brian Fantana said:

Yeah that's a bad look. I get it, but just protest in front of the White House or something.

I mean, these morons missed an easy message: stand in front of the Holocaust museum with your banner that says "'Never Again' means NEVER AGAIN -- for EVERYONE -- Stop the Genocide in Gaza!"  That's not anti-semitic, it is aligned with a statement and belief that aligns with jews being valued humans, followed by "and so should all other humans be valued."

But this long ago stopped being about anything that makes sense.  It's about proxies, and idiotic ideologies, and supposedly human rights-favoring positions being a trojan horse for genocidal hatred against the other side, so fuck it.   Fuck em all.  The Palestinians have cast their lot with their genocidal leaders and faction.  The Israelis have done the same.  Nobody deserves what's happening there....yet each side is getting what they deserve.  Fucking humans are stupid and suck.

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2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I mean, these morons missed an easy message: stand in front of the Holocaust museum with your banner that says "'Never Again' means NEVER AGAIN -- for EVERYONE -- Stop the Genocide in Gaza!"  That's not anti-semitic, it is aligned with a statement and belief that aligns with jews being valued humans, followed by "and so should all other humans be valued."

But this long ago stopped being about anything that makes sense.  It's about proxies, and idiotic ideologies, and supposedly human rights-favoring positions being a trojan horse for genocidal hatred against the other side, so fuck it.   Fuck em all.  The Palestinians have cast their lot with their genocidal leaders and faction.  The Israelis have done the same.  Nobody deserves what's happening there....yet each side is getting what they deserve.  Fucking humans are stupid and suck.

Yeah for sure. Their messaging is stupid and they have a sub-Wikipedia level knowledge of the conflict just like the dumbass right wing nutjobs that splooge their pants every time Israel drops another bomb.

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1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

Yeah for sure. Their messaging is stupid and they have a sub-Wikipedia level knowledge of the conflict just like the dumbass right wing nutjobs that splooge their pants every time Israel drops another bomb.

There's little difference between "kill the ragheads, turn it all to glass!" and "wipe out the colonizers, make it Palestine from the river to the sea!"  It's a powerful geopolitical lesson.  When your population has a 20-30% mass of people who are all-in on genocidal hatred, that poison takes over the whole society.

2% of your people are hateful assholes?  Well, you just have some unpleasant people to deal with.

25% of your people are hateful assholes (whether purposeful or as useful idiots)?  You have a big fucking problem, because that ethos can dominate a society even as a small plurality.

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Y'all should note the Johnny Sacks of the world openly expressing support for ethnic cleansing.

Meanwhile, this will undoubtedly be a topic:

Biden Imposes Sanctions on Israeli Settlers Over West Bank Violence

President Biden on Thursday ordered broad financial and travel sanctions on Israeli settlers accused of violent attacks on Palestinians in the West Bank, a gesture aimed in part at Arab American voters in the United States who have expressed fury about the president’s backing of Israel’s war in Gaza.

Mr. Biden authorized the sanctions with an executive order that goes further than a directive issued in December by the State Department, which imposed visa bans on dozens of Israeli settlers who have committed acts of violence in the West Bank.

The new order cuts people off from the U.S. financial system and from assets or property they have in the United States. It also prevents them from traveling to the United States. Four people would be sanctioned on Thursday but there will be more announcements to come, according to Biden administration officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss details of the order.

The executive order comes as Mr. Biden faces growing criticism over U.S. support for Israel’s war in Gaza, including from his own party. American officials fear a recent surge in attacks by Israeli settlers against Palestinians in the West Bank could set off even wider violence, making an already combustible situation worse.

“This violence poses a grave threat to peace, security, and stability in the West Bank, Israel, and the Middle East region, and threatens the national security and foreign policy interests of the United States,” said Jake Sullivan, the president’s national security adviser.

Palestinians and many analysts say that Israel’s government has allowed the often heavily armed settlers to operate with impunity.

The office of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel responded to the sanctions by saying the “vast majority” of Israeli West Bank settlers are “law-abiding citizens.” Israel “acts against lawbreakers everywhere, so there is no need for exceptional steps in this matter,” Mr. Netanyahu’s office said in a statement.

The White House announced the sanctions just hours before Mr. Biden was set to hold a campaign event in Michigan, a critical battleground state that has a large Arab American population and has been the site of numerous protests over the war in Gaza.

Before leaving for Michigan, Mr. Biden spoke about what he said was “the trauma, the death and destruction in Israel and Gaza.” Speaking at the National Prayer Breakfast in Washington, he pledged to work for the release of hostages and the lives of Palestinians.

“Not only do we pray for peace, we are actively working for peace, security, dignity for the Israeli people and the Palestinian people,” he told the group of lawmakers and religious leaders at the event.

Michigan is critical to Mr. Biden’s campaign for a second term. In 2020, he won the state over former President Donald J. Trump by 154,188 out of almost 5.5 million votes cast that year. Michigan is home to several hundred thousand Arab Americans, most of whom live in the Detroit area. Those areas voted by big margins for Mr. Biden in 2020.

But since the attacks in Israel, polls show the president losing support among Palestinians and other Arab Americans. One poll late last year showed Mr. Biden’s support in that population plummeting from 59 percent to just 17 percent, a more than 40 percentage point decrease since the last election.

Mr. Biden has been dogged by people protesting his support for Israel at almost every campaign event in recent weeks. Before Mr. Biden’s travel on Thursday, the White House and the president’s re-election campaign refused to provide details about where he was going in Michigan or what he would be doing.

Osama A. Siblani, publisher of the Dearborn-based Arab American News, said on Thursday that Mr. Biden’s standing among Arab voters was as low as it had ever been, and that the sanctions would do nothing to change that.

“We have given up on him doing anything,” Mr. Siblani said, adding that he had been struck by the lack of specificity from the White House about the president’s schedule in Michigan, which he said seemed like an attempt to avoid possible protests.

“If the community is not going to be able to protest his visit,” Mr. Siblani said, “we’re going to give him the answer on Feb. 27,” a reference to the date of the Michigan Democratic presidential primary

The anger directed at the president is largely fueled by the belief that his administration has not done enough to prevent the killing of thousands of Palestinians by Israel as it wages war in Gaza against Hamas. Gazan authorities say at least 27,000 people have been killed during Israel’s military campaign.

But violence by extremist settlers, meant to drive Palestinians from their homes in the West Bank, has spiked recently, and Palestinians and many analysts say that Israel’s government has allowed the often heavily armed settlers to operate with impunity. Attacks on Palestinians, meant to drive them from their homes, had reached their highest recorded levels even before the Oct. 7 Hamas attacks — and have only accelerated since then.

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image.thumb.jpeg.069237fc0e03975e1594b1f881c7c6ac.jpeg
 

Six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust and the State of Israel didn’t exist when it happened. The very best you can do is be extremely tone-deaf if you’re protesting Israel or anything else at a Holocaust Museum; and usually you’re much worse. There’s no magic sign formula that makes it OK. 

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3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

There's little difference between "kill the ragheads, turn it all to glass!" and "wipe out the colonizers, make it Palestine from the river to the sea!"

It’s really disorienting to read a thread in which Anastasis advocates a firm position while Brisketexan espouses uninformed both-sideserism. 

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16 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

It’s really disorienting to read a thread in which Anastasis advocates a firm position while Brisketexan espouses uninformed both-sideserism. 

Yes or no -- are the policy and action choices of yes, "both sides," at present driven more by a) genocidal desire for murderous destruction of the other side, or b) a reasoned approach that is aimed at a two-state solution or other peaceful co-existence?  Come on, man.  Israel is better-equipped to carry it out.  That's the only material difference here.  Each "side" has allowed itself to be co-opted and functionally commanded by its worst elements.  Arguing about which hat is blacker right now is futile and pointless.

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Amnesty International accuses Israeli forces of killing Palestinians in the West Bank with impunity.

Amnesty International said on Monday that Israeli forces were killing Palestinians in the West Bank with “near total impunity” as the world’s attention focused on Gaza, demanding in a new report that the International Criminal Court step up its investigation into Israel’s conduct in the Israeli-occupied area.

In the West Bank, Israeli forces have used live fire to disperse Palestinian protests, attacked people trying to help the injured and carried out deadly arrest raids that have spread fear throughout Palestinian communities, Amnesty International said in its report. It said the Israeli forces’ actions added to the country’s “well-documented track record of using excessive and often lethal force to stifle dissent and enforce its system of apartheid against Palestinians.”

The human rights organization said that Israel’s use of unlawful force in the West Bank had sharply escalated since Oct. 7, when a Hamas-led attack from Gaza killed more than 1,200 people in Israel, according to Israeli authorities. Israel’s retaliatory campaign has killed more than 27,000 Palestinians in Gaza, according to health officials there.  

The Israeli military has described its actions in the West Bank as counterterrorism efforts necessary to prevent further attacks. Israel has strongly denied prior accusations that it has committed the crime of apartheid.

Israeli military operations have raised alarms from several human rights groups, including the United Nations human rights office, which called in December for Israel to “end unlawful killings” of Palestinians in the West Bank and to immediately stop the use of “military weapons and means during law enforcement operations.”

Since Oct. 7, Israeli forces in the West Bank have killed at least 360 Palestinians and injured 4,270, the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs said on Sunday. Last year was the deadliest for Palestinians in the West Bank since the office began recording casualties in 2005, and about 70 percent of those killings were reported during Israeli military operations, O.C.H.A. has said.

Amnesty’s report detailed its investigations into four incidents that it said were emblematic of the recent escalation, and renewed its call for the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, Karim Khan, to take action. In 2021, the I.C.C. opened an investigation into allegations of war crimes committed by Israel and Palestinian militant groups in Israeli-occupied areas, but many Palestinian groups have criticized the pace and focus of the inquiry.

Amnesty’s director for global research and policy, Erika Guevara-Rosas, called for Mr. Khan to investigate the killings in the West Bank as possible war crimes, saying in the report that “an international justice system worth its salt must step in.”

Among the incidents investigated by Amnesty was an Israeli raid that began on Oct. 19 and lasted more than 24 hours in Nur Shams, an area that originated decades ago as a refugee camp for Palestinians displaced in the wars surrounding the founding of Israel. Israeli forces killed 13 Palestinians during the raid, including six children, according to Amnesty and Wafa, the official Palestinian news agency.

One of those killed during the raid, Amnesty said, was Taha Mahamid, an unarmed 15-year-old shot by Israeli forces when he peeked out of his house to see if they had left the area. His father was shot and seriously injured when he went to retrieve Taha’s body, and the family’s home was raided by Israeli forces about 12 hours later, Amnesty said.

One of Taha’s sisters told Amnesty investigators that her brother was shot in the leg, then in his stomach, then in his eye.

“They did not give him a chance,” the human rights group quoted her as saying. “In an instant, my brother was eliminated.”

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What Israeli Soldiers’ Videos Reveal: Cheering Destruction and Mocking Gazans
An analysis of social media videos found Israeli soldiers filming themselves in Gaza and destroying what appears to be civilian property. The footage provides a rare and unsanctioned window into the war.

An Israeli soldier gives a thumbs up to the camera as he drives a bulldozer down a street in Beit Lahia, in northern Gaza, pushing a battered car toward a half-collapsed building.

“I stopped counting how many neighborhoods I’ve erased,” the caption reads on the video posted to his personal TikTok, accompanied by a militaristic anthem.

Since Israel’s invasion in October, soldiers have shared videos from Gaza on social media, offering a rare, unsanctioned look at operations on the ground. Some have been viewed by small circles of people; others have reached tens of thousands.

The New York Times reviewed hundreds of these videos. Some show unremarkable parts of a soldier’s life — eating, hanging out or sending messages to loved ones back home.

Others capture soldiers vandalizing local shops and school classrooms, making derogatory comments about Palestinians, bulldozing what appear to be civilian areas and calling for the building of Israeli settlements in Gaza, an inflammatory idea that is promoted by some far-right Israeli politicians.

Some of the soldiers’ posts violate regulations of the Israel Defense Forces that restrict the use of social media by its personnel, which specifically forbid sharing content that may “affect the image of the I.D.F. and its perceptions in the eyes of the public,” or that shows behavior that “harms human dignity.”

In a statement, the Israeli military condemned the videos filmed by soldiers featured in this story.

“The conduct of the force that emerges from the footage is deplorable and does not comply with the army’s orders,” the military said in a written statement. It added that the “circumstances” were being examined.

Free link to read rest of article and view some of the embedded videos: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/06/world/middleeast/israel-idf-soldiers-war-social-media-video.html?unlocked_article_code=1.Tk0.1R4F.P71BPETSbQg4&bgrp=t&smid=url-share

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9 minutes ago, Da Fino said:

How can they mock!!??

Oh, they can, and some of the videos are being used in the genocide trial at the ICJ, documenting the wholesale destruction of civilian property in violation of the Geneva Conventions, to which Israel is a signatory nation. But Israel is our ally, so we shouldn't give a shit about rampant war crimes, right?

Besides, Gazan civilians are just a bunch of Muslims anyway, so who really gives a shit if 70% of Gazan homes have been damaged or destroyed and a quarter of the population is on the brink of starvation.

I'm sure it's all in good fun.

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Again, it’s an existential fight for Israel. All that matters to them is winning. It doesn’t make what they’re doing right, but don’t be surprised by it.

 

Take it from one of our top generals in WW2  

 

Le May’s strategy was to “bomb and burn “em till they quit.” He once said, "I'll tell you what war is about. You've got to kill people, and when you've killed enough, they stop fighting." On another occasion he said, “I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal. Fortunately, we were on the winning side.”

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Like, honestly, the amount of mental gymnastics you have to do to make the claim that Israel's actions or even fucking presence in the first place in the West Bank is some kind of existential struggle for them is fucking insane. You're actually a complete idiot.

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52 minutes ago, Boss Hogg said:

Again, it’s an existential fight for Israel. All that matters to them is winning. It doesn’t make what they’re doing right, but don’t be surprised by it.

 

Take it from one of our top generals in WW2  

 

Le May’s strategy was to “bomb and burn “em till they quit.” He once said, "I'll tell you what war is about. You've got to kill people, and when you've killed enough, they stop fighting." On another occasion he said, “I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal. Fortunately, we were on the winning side.”

LeMay got started with the 8th Air Force in Europe where he pioneered the bomber box and was all in for daylight attacks on key industries.  The British Bomber Command and Bomber Harris thought the USAAF was nuts and took too many casualties and drove nighttime area attacks.

Then LeMay was sent to the Pacific theatre and faced two main issues:

1. Cloud over over Japan was much worse than Europe.

2. B-29s flew higher in the jet stream and bombs couldn’t be delivered on target the same way as from B-24s and from B-17s.

He actually got a list of strategic targets and he realized he couldn’t hit them. He got an almanac with a list of the 20 biggest Japanese cities and decided to hit square miles. 
 

Relevant here because the intersection of capabilities with goals is at the core of of how to actually use violence to compel and deter. And Gaza isn’t Japan and they don’t fly B-29s.  
 

But you do get be called a ghoul for taking an interest in that intersection and pointing it out. 

Edited by 956 Worldwide
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29 minutes ago, Boss Hogg said:

Again, it’s an existential fight for Israel. All that matters to them is winning. It doesn’t make what they’re doing right, but don’t be surprised by it.

 

Take it from one of our top generals in WW2  

 

Le May’s strategy was to “bomb and burn “em till they quit.” He once said, "I'll tell you what war is about. You've got to kill people, and when you've killed enough, they stop fighting." On another occasion he said, “I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal. Fortunately, we were on the winning side.”

Two points:

  1. The rules of war, as outlined by the 1949 Geneva Convention, which Israel also signed, were created specifically to prevent the brutality seen in World War II. Israel didn't have to sign them, but they did. And, mind you, Israel's position was much more precarious at the time, so the State of Israel was at much greater risk of being extinguished by its neighbors. Why would Israel's leaders agree to it then but not now? 
  2. I'm really hesitant to make this point because it might sound like I'm siding with Hamas, which I'm not, but I'll make it to show the error in your thinking. By your logic, if a nation or group of people feel that they're in an existential fight, which I'd argue Gazans feel like they are, wouldn't they then be excused from using war crimes such as terrorism to win a conflict? 

It sounds like you want to live in a world where there are no rules and what only matters is "might makes right." I don't want to live in that world, and apparently, neither did our grandfathers, who had just experienced two consecutive world wars in which millions of innocents died.

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1 hour ago, BurgleBro said:

The footage from last night is not great. 

 

Kinda wild that this thread has gone silent as shit continues to ramp up, we are lining up a military package for Israel, they are dropping US bombs on ambulances trying to reach a girl stuck in a car with her dead family, and Israel is preparing to move into the area that they pushed everyone in Gaza to as the safe space. 

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2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

What do you expect people to say? 

No one supports what Israel is doing to Gaza. It’s horrific and they should stop. 

It's just interesting that no one wants to talk about this anymore now that it's abundantly clear how wrong it is.

Even the horny ass warmongers in the DT thread have stopped posting their dumbass ops tweets every day.

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2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

No one supports what Israel is doing to Gaza

 

Senate just passed a $14.1B military aid package to Israel. We sure do have a funny way of doing certain things to stop it. 

 

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It is awful. It hurts to think about. 
 
How should it end? Hamas should surrender. Hamas fucked up (Iran helped them make the mistake). They picked a fight they can’t win, unless they can pressure Israel to stop. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and any Gazan civilians holding hostages should release them, if still alive. 
 
Israel is less restrained than before. There are more innocents being killed. They are not letting safety of hostages override all. It looks like this will continue until Hamas surrenders or is wiped out. I don’t see another choice between supporting Israel, supporting Hamas (cease fire), or doing nothing. I guess records can be made for future war crime trials…for both sides, for what good it will do  

What more is there to say?

 

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2 minutes ago, statsman said:

It is awful. It hurts to think about. 
 
How should it end? Hamas should surrender. Hamas fucked up (Iran helped them make the mistake). They picked a fight they can’t win, unless they can pressure Israel to stop. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and any Gazan civilians holding hostages should release them, if still alive. 
 
Israel is less restrained than before. There are more innocents being killed. They are not letting safety of hostages override all. It looks like this will continue until Hamas surrenders or is wiped out. I don’t see another choice between supporting Israel, supporting Hamas (cease fire), or doing nothing. I guess records can be made for future war crime trials…for both sides, for what good it will do  

What more is there to say?

 

I'm not sure why I'm bothering to respond to you, you absolute fucking idiot. You should say less. Everything you have posted on this topic has been riddled with half-truths, outright lies, and incredibly stupid conclusions.

You think supporting a cease fire is supporting Hamas? You fucking moron, stop posting. Fuck off. You are literal trash.

2 hours ago, AnTiM said:

Amazing how long it takes for us to realize that all the talking in the world does absolutely nothing for solving a thousand year old problem.

I will go ahead and lump this stupid fucking post in with the drivel from statsman as well.

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1 hour ago, AnTiM said:

Amazing how long it takes for us to realize that all the talking in the world does absolutely nothing for solving a thousand year old problem.

For fuck’s sake. It’s not a thousand year old problem. 

Some of y'all need to stop watching Fox News and The 700 Club and start reading some history books. 

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7 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I'm not sure why I'm bothering to respond to you, you absolute fucking idiot. You should say less. Everything you have posted on this topic has been riddled with half-truths, outright lies, and incredibly stupid conclusions.

You think supporting a cease fire is supporting Hamas? You fucking moron, stop posting. Fuck off. You are literal trash.

I will go ahead and lump this stupid fucking post in with the drivel from statsman as well.

Well that was a measured response.

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4 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I've got no patience for bad faith posting on this specific topic, and I'm not going to mince words about it. If it bothers you that much, you're welcome to place me on ignore.

I didn't consider his last response to be bad faith.  Misguided and simplistic, perhaps.  I can understand your disagreement with his opinion, especially given your personal attachment to and passion regarding this issue, but perhaps you might want to reflect on whether a kneejerk response like the last one was warranted.

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20 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I'm not sure why I'm bothering to respond to you, you absolute fucking idiot. You should say less. Everything you have posted on this topic has been riddled with half-truths, outright lies, and incredibly stupid conclusions.

This is why nobody posts in this thread.  It's turned into a group think circle jerk where any statement other than "Fuck Israel" is met with responses like this. 

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