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tantric superman

Bacon tastes good. The pre-statin LDL Thread

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So got my physical results and the LDL level is the only real issue.  Curious as to any of your experiences with lowering the LDL levels.  I'm at a good place exercise wise, and overall diet wise, but my thoughts are that I can cut out the red meat (Beef, lamb), the processed red meat (Italian sub, etc) and look out for the Trans Fat nonsense (chips).  Eggs will be tough. 

Any particular diet changes/regimens that got you to where you needed to  be?

 

Edited by tantric superman

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Cut out dark meat poultry also along with shellfish. Cheese is one of the worst things you can eat for heart health so it’s gone. No more fried food. Try to stick to only olive and avocado oil for fats. Exercise even more.

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Cut out dark meat poultry also along with shellfish. Cheese is one of the worst things you can eat for heart health so it’s gone. No more fried food. Try to stick to only olive and avocado oil for fats. Exercise even more.




What’s the point of living then?

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1 hour ago, CooterBrown said:

Cut out dark meat poultry also along with shellfish. Cheese is one of the worst things you can eat for heart health so it’s gone. No more fried food. Try to stick to only olive and avocado oil for fats. Exercise even more.
 

fuck that diet all to hell.

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1 hour ago, tantric superman said:

That report seems to be giving one leeway but for lowfat cheese and milk and yogurt only.

It's one of several.  And it's a couple of years old.

Just about all the "medical nutrition" we (GenX) were raised on is proving to be almost completely wrong.  The low-fat (correspondingly high carb) diet (not lose-weight diet, just "healthy" diet) is dead wrong.  Lurking in the background has been an emphasis of complex carbs over simple, but that was really the most important thing, by far.

The solace is, eat salet, have dressing, just make sure it doesn't have a ton of sugar in it, a lot do.

Edited by TwiceHorn

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2 hours ago, tantric superman said:

.  Curious as to any of your experiences with lowering the LDL levels. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Ummm, correct me if I am wrong, but the relationship between serum cholesterol and intake of cholesterol is nearly zero.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/say-cheese

I'm not sure the saturated fat thing is wholly valid anymore either.  Simple carbs and sugar are the killer.  And your genes.

Twice is correct based on my experience,  especially the genes.

 

Age, family history, etc are factors.    

Similar circumstances,  good exercise program, overall good diet but LDL was 110,  goal is -100.   Asked doctor if I could try diet and he said,   "Sure,  but difficult and likely will not reduce LDL."    Also,  family history and age were factors.   Take .20mg Lipitor,  works great, no side effects.

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12 minutes ago, Sam Lin said:

Oatmeal. Eat oatmeal regularly. How far "out" are you on your numbers?

114 LDL.

I like oatmeal (Bare (oatmeal, flax, quinua, etc) with blueberries and a bit of peanut butter and honey.  I'm trying to lock into eating only between noon and 8, so I'm actually trying to switch the oatmeal or cheerios to a desert at the end of the day.

 

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11 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

The solace is, eat salet, have dressing, just make sure it doesn't have a ton of sugar in it, a lot do.

Shoot, easier said than done.  I'm one of those people that just cannot physically eat salad - my body doesn't process it well and it results in painful digestion (think the gut bomb of eating 100 hellfire wings).  I really would like a salad every now and then, but it damn sure isn't worth that amount of pain.  I had a discussion with my GI about it and his simple response was "some people just can't digest lettuce"

Edited by Spur08

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Just now, Spur08 said:

Shoot, easier said than done.  I'm one of those people that just cannot physically eat salad - my body doesn't process it well and it results in painful digestion (think the gut bomb of eating 100 hellfire wings).  I really would like a salad every now and then, but it damn sure isn't worth that amount of pain.

I have an uneasy relationship with cruciferous vegetables.  Broccoli is fine, but any quantity of raw cauliflower fucks me up.  Cabbage, too.

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14 minutes ago, Spur08 said:

Shoot, easier said than done.  I'm one of those people that just cannot physically eat salad - my body doesn't process it well and it results in painful digestion (think the gut bomb of eating 100 hellfire wings).  I really would like a salad every now and then, but it damn sure isn't worth that amount of pain.  I had a discussion with my GI about it and his simple response was "some people just can't digest lettuce"

Have a sister-in-law who has the same issue.  It just cannot be part of what she eats or it fucks her up.

I just started keto yesterday and I have successfully used it in the past to drop significant weight.  I eat a huge spinach/ spring greens salad almost every evening and it helps me on the lower GI pushing out all the meat and cheese I otherwise eat. i think I would hurt like a motherfucker if I didn't get to have that big salad, as many veggies are pretty limited on keto.

Relevant to the thread, I have done keto twice, with one time going for about 9 months.  Beer( real beer, not beer flavored water) and football season are the 2 main culprits in why I have backed off in the past; but both times I did keto, my number improved dramatically on my health checks related to sitting pulse, LDL & HDL, blood pressure, triglycerides, et al.  I also feel a shit-ton better when I drop those carbs.  Maybe it doesn't work for everyone, but I am a believer.

 

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I went from about 175 to 106 over 4-5 months using a prescription, I think rosuvastatin (sp), something with an 'r' and statin. I exercise 4-5 times a week, and have for years, but have had high cholesterol since my teenage years (32 now). I also have a hard time saying no to sugar, but have worked to moderate myself (not stop at the bakery EVERY time I'm at HEB). Doc was mostly convinced it's just genetics, and obviously the medication worked as intended. $9/refill at HEB, take it before bed, all in all not really a big deal and has worked.

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Been doing keto for over a year now. Been off the wagon a few times during holidays and vacations, but on it about 95% of the time. My cholesterol numbers improved, i lost weight (not as much as I'd like but I'm old now and my metabolism is shit), and I feel tons better. Genetics are my biggest enemy... thanks family. Cutting sugars is the key imho. That processed stuff is a killer. 

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When I turned 40 mine went up.  Take a pill once a day (simvistatin)and continue to eat what I want most of the time.

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I went from about 175 to 106 over 4-5 months using a prescription, I think rosuvastatin (sp), something with an 'r' and statin. I exercise 4-5 times a week, and have for years, but have had high cholesterol since my teenage years (32 now). I also have a hard time saying no to sugar, but have worked to moderate myself (not stop at the bakery EVERY time I'm at HEB). Doc was mostly convinced it's just genetics, and obviously the medication worked as intended. $9/refill at HEB, take it before bed, all in all not really a big deal and has worked.

Pretty sure that’s the generic Crestor. I was on it for about 12 years. Been off now for about 13 months and so far my lipids are ok to good.

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My LDL has been inching downward since I've been on the Keto for the last 2+ years but still nowhere close to 100. I'll see the doc in a couple of weeks for the semiannual checkup. She's had me on fish oil since the last checkup. Gave the statins a try a year or so ago but was having muscle aches with that.

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Mine was hovering just above 100 and seemed to be stalled despite diet and exercise and I started taking powdered soluble fiber twice a day and went down.

Edited by Sparky

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Exercise at least every other day and eat healthy foods in moderation. Cut the sodium and sugars down as much as possible. 

This is what I have been told after I had a Widow Maker heart attack at 63 years of age.

Chlorestrol numbers have always been near perfect, but stress is a bastard.

As stated by someone earlier in this thread simvastatin is a effective drug as well as Lipitor.

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7 hours ago, huge said:

When I turned 40 mine went up.  Take a pill once a day (simvistatin)and continue to eat what I want most of the time.

Good on you for being honest but have you attempted to also improve your cholesterol also with diet?

i had a different daily drug, nexium, and issue but finally listened to a doctor who advised to at least attempt to change my diet. Not saying I’ve been perfect but I’m glad I’m off a daily pill.

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So I have all the great genetics that lead to hypertension. Basically have been on maintenance meds since my early 40’’s. Anyway, I cycled through beta blockers (which had my resting hb around 30bpm), ACE inhibitors (massive coughing fits), and finally to ARBs which worked for me. 

i was on Losartan forever and it was fine.  But then the whole contamination thing happened last year and just as a precaution my doctor switched me to Olmesartan, then Telmisartan.  Anyway, after a year of Telmisartan I had a physical and without any other changes my LDL dropped almost 10%.  Blood sugar numbers got somewhat better too.   Apparently these are basically “side effects” of Telmisartan.  
 

so if you’re on HBP meds anyway, you might ask your doctor about it.  

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Mine improved from 5.4 to 3.8.  i was feeling purdy good about my LDL at 143( was 165) till I started reading this thread.

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My LDL is 74 and I was diagnosed with CAD yesterday. No symptoms and they found it incidentally on a chest CT scan. It was my 43rd birthday yesterday. So that was sweet. I've never had a sedentary lifestyle and exercise has always been a part of my life. Never been more than 30 pounds overweight and that was short lived. Also no heart disease at all in my family. 

So take that for what it's worth.

Edit to say that I smoked cigarettes for most of my life and left high blood pressure untreated. So that's probably worth mentioning. 

Edited by BBQ2Bayou

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41 minutes ago, tokamak said:

Oh shit well a guy on YouTube said so. I'm convinced.

Yeah, I would rather listen to him over my doctor that specializes in men's health.  My doc is also not one to over prescribe meds but his attitude is that most of what made mine go up was hereditary.  I also eat relatively healthy.  My blood pressure is excellent.  I am 6'1 and weigh about 188.  It isn't like I use the pill as a reason to eat like a slob.

As with anything else, your mileage may vary.

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1 hour ago, BBQ2Bayou said:

My LDL is 74 and I was diagnosed with CAD yesterday. No symptoms and they found it incidentally on a chest CT scan. It was my 43rd birthday yesterday. So that was sweet. I've never had a sedentary lifestyle and exercise has always been a part of my life. Never been more than 30 pounds overweight and that was short lived. Also no heart disease at all in my family. 

So take that for what it's worth.

Edit to say that I smoked cigarettes for most of my life and left high blood pressure untreated. So that's probably worth mentioning. 

My grandpa was the same way. Very active lifestyle, 6 foot 1 130 pounds, never ate fried foods, but also smoked cigarettes like you wouldn't believe. Had 1 heart attack every decade from his 40s all the way until he died at 63. 

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2 hours ago, tokamak said:

Oh shit well a guy on YouTube said so. I'm convinced.

I stuck with it past "these little factories in your cells", and through "the post offices in your cells sending packages, with labels and postage" until he started talking about cargo boats in your blood.  Couldn't take any of it seriously after that.    

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9 hours ago, Longhorn Al said:

I don't buy into the cholesterol/LDL hype.  It's natural.  We need it.

Never take statins. Cut carbs and sugar.

https://cholesterolcode.com/

I've been in the weeds for a few years now as high genetic risk (combined with previously shitty lifestyle and standard american diet most of my life) and have read just about everything there is to read.    So I'm familiar with Dave and his work is interesting. He and others in the Keto cult (I eat low carb now, not Keto, but I'm philosophically aligned) have some interesting theories with no real science backing it up for the most part.    But if you (or anyone following this thread) want a more balanced perspective, I suggest following Peter Attia.  He's an actual MD aligned with these guys on a lot of issues (i.e., insulin resistance a major problem).  He's also done podcasts with the top experts in lipidology and isn't dismissive of the role of modern medicine.   P.S.  He also did a podcast with Dave and it was pretty obvious Dave was WELL out of his league on the science.   

My perspective on CAD is pretty summed up perfectly by TwiceHorn when he says:

"I'm not sure the saturated fat thing is wholly valid anymore either.  Simple carbs and sugar are the killer.  And your genes." 

Yup.  So I think it's fair criticism that statins are likely well overprescribed and many can reduce risk with lifestyle choices (at least for those that actually have the willpower to completely change their lifestyle).  But the last part in TwiceHorn's quote, "i.e., genes" is an issue for many (like me).  My issue is high LP(a) (which is not well known now but will likely be as well known as LDL in 5-7 years if the drug in Phase 3 trials is proven effective).  So I control my Apob with statins.  But for those in the Keto cult (like Dave) without known genetic issues who happen to have LDL SKYROCKET while on Keto (i.e., super high LDL, High HDL, Low Trigs), it's certainly a risk and those guys don't give a very balanced perspective.   FWIW, many seem to adapt to that diet without massive increases in LDL/Apob

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16 hours ago, Sam Lin said:

The other thing I forgot to ask, what is your HDL number? (or your HDL/LDL ratio?)

CHOLESTEROL 181 mg/dL 0 to 199 mg/dL  
TRIGLYCERIDES 78 mg/dL 0 to 149 mg/dL  
HDL CHOLESTEROL 51 mg/dL >38 mg/dL  
LDL CHOLESTEROL CALCULATED 114 mg/dL 0 to 99 mg/dL H
CHOL/HDL RATIO 3.5 0.0 to 5.0

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13 hours ago, Longhorn Al said:

I hadn't seen this video before just now, but he dumbs it down pretty well.

 

This guy may be 100% right but he is a chiropractor not a MD.  Now he may have possibly studied cardiovascular health on his own, and could be more knowledgeable than an average MD but I don't know.

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4 hours ago, HRSchenker said:
6 hours ago, BBQ2Bayou said:

My LDL is 74 and I was diagnosed with CAD yesterday. No symptoms and they found it incidentally on a chest CT scan. It was my 43rd birthday yesterday. So that was sweet. I've never had a sedentary lifestyle and exercise has always been a part of my life. Never been more than 30 pounds overweight and that was short lived. Also no heart disease at all in my family. 

So take that for what it's worth.

Edit to say that I smoked cigarettes for most of my life and left high blood pressure untreated. So that's probably worth mentioning. 

My grandpa was the same way. Very active lifestyle, 6 foot 1 130 pounds, never ate fried foods, but also smoked cigarettes like you wouldn't believe. Had 1 heart attack every decade from his 40s all the way until he died at 63. 

spacer.png

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My grandpa was the same way. Very active lifestyle, 6 foot 1 130 pounds, never ate fried foods, but also smoked cigarettes like you wouldn't believe. Had 1 heart attack every decade from his 40s all the way until he died at 63. 


My Grandpa was completely opposite. Was pretty sedentary of retiring in his early 60’s. He ate pretty much whatever he wanted whenever he wanted. He smoked cigars up until his 70’s. He didn’t drink though. In my 50 years of knowing him, I’ve never seen him drink a drop of alcohol. He’s still alive at 99.

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My grandpa was the same way. Very active lifestyle, 6 foot 1 130 pounds, never ate fried foods, but also smoked cigarettes like you wouldn't believe. Had 1 heart attack every decade from his 40s all the way until he died at 63. 


My Grandpa was completely opposite. Was pretty sedentary of retiring in his early 60’s. He ate pretty much whatever he wanted whenever he wanted. He smoked cigars up until his 70’s. He didn’t drink though. In my 50 years of knowing him, I’ve never seen him drink a drop of alcohol. He’s still alive at 99.

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6 hours ago, Skipper said:

Absent other risk factors I'm surprised a doc is concerned with those numbers.

Likewise. Has LDL been trending over the last couple years, or are there other health concerns making you cautious (any family history of health issues?)

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6 hours ago, Hate said:

 


My Grandpa was completely opposite. Was pretty sedentary of retiring in his early 60’s. He ate pretty much whatever he wanted whenever he wanted. He smoked cigars up until his 70’s. He didn’t drink though. In my 50 years of knowing him, I’ve never seen him drink a drop of alcohol. He’s still alive at 99.

 

I'll see your grandpa and raise my great grandma.  She lacked a couple of weeks being 100. She did pretty much the stuff.  She didn't smoke cigars but she did dip the red snuff shit.  She'd fry enough bacon for the buffet at Denny's then soak up some of the grease and crumblings and eat that.  Lastly, she was known to knock down a beer or two every afternoon.  If you got good genetics you'll be alright.

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As I’ve been on keto for a while now, I’ve read up/watched videos on the low carb/high fat movement.  They offer reasonable discussions on how we’ve had it backwards for 50 years and only questionable studies back the conventional wisdom that fats are bad for us and carbs are the enemy.  And that cholesterol levels don’t mean much for most people, or that statins are a waste of money for most.

however could these be anti-vaxxer type people that cherry pick their knowledge and they even roped in a few MDs to back them up. Do they have confirmation bias?  I can back up that keto drops the lbs but is it healthy? Don’t know.

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19 hours ago, Skipper said:

Absent other risk factors I'm surprised a doc is concerned with those numbers.

My doctor doesn't give two shits.  I just noticed the H in bold next to the number and certainly don't want it to go higher.

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19 hours ago, Skipper said:

Absent other risk factors I'm surprised a doc is concerned with those numbers.

 

12 hours ago, Sam Lin said:

Likewise. Has LDL been trending over the last couple years, or are there other health concerns making you cautious (any family history of health issues?)

 

Tantric and I have almost identical numbers - good except LDL is over 100.

As discussed,  the factors that require concern of LDL over 100 are age, cardiovascular health, family history, etc.   LDL level from 100-129 is acceptable for people with no family history of CAD or health concerns.    I debated with my physician before accepting his advice to take a statin (Lipitor).   

Each case differs,  but my recommendation is to heed your physician's advice.    We are not getting any younger,  and watching these Longhorns the past few years does not help.    😊

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On 2/3/2020 at 9:13 PM, Bob Lives! said:

Watch The Game Changers on Netflix.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ha ha.  I watched it and thought it was great. Then I called my daughter, who is a certified trainer, and asked her if she watched it.  She got very animated, got kind pissed, said their was a lot of nonsense in it, and then told me about an obnoxious vegan who sat next to her at a dinner who drove her crazy. 

I ready some of the reviews, and it got some serious criticism for pseudoscience, but overall I thought it made lots of sense, especially some of the environmental stuff.

Also made me think that even if you looked at it in terms of metaphorical truth, most people would benefit from going on that type of diet, given then massive overeating of meat that Americans consume. 

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3 minutes ago, torre said:

As discussed,  the factors that require concern of LDL over 100 are age, cardiovascular health, family history, etc.   LDL level from 100-129 is acceptable for people with no family history of CAD or health concerns.    I debated with my physician before accepting his advice to take a statin (Lipitor). 

Dad (93) has had both cardio issues (bypass surgery) and is moving into dementia.  I realize that the issue of statins having a deleterious effect on memory seem to be being debunked, but I really don't want to go down the statin road if I don't have to.  The dementia terrifies me a whole lot more than the heart issues.

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I heard a crazy stat about statins. Some studies discovered that the average increase in life expectancy of those who did take stains were <10 days.  Not years or months, but days.  These studies didn't measure quality of life or other impact of the pills. They do seem to reduce heart attacks in people that are prone to heart attacks.  Big plus on the statin argument.

Of course, people are identified as high risk based on the cholesterol numbers and now this identification process seems to be questioned. I'm sure the pharmaceutical industry is happy to push this narrative.

However if someone can also control their risk factors with diet, why should the statins be covered by insurance? Basically co-workers or co-insured are paying for someone's decision to continue to eat poorly.  Use drugs to stabilize while you're changing your diet, and if you don't want to change, the statin cost should be out of pocket. This is why healthcare costs are out of control

 

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What are the downsides of taking statins?  As I said above, I was diagnosed with CAD and my LDL is 74 with no family history. My cardiologist put me on 5 mg of Lipitor, which is half of the lowest dose they make. She said people with CAD who have an LDL of over 70, they recommend being on it. She also told me to take 81 mg of aspirin a day. 

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I don't think 74 is considered a bad number by any stretch. Now if you have CAD, that would seem to change everything.

My completely non-medical opinion is that some doctors take the lazy way out by giving you a prescription because patients mentally feel relieved to have a prescription or cynically, it's purely defensive medicine. "I followed conventional thought by prescribing a statin, you can't sue me if BBQ2 had a heart attack."  

My anecdotal story is with another medicine. I took Nexium for years for acid reflux.  It basically reduces your stomach acid to close to zero. Symptoms go away but that sounds bad for normal digestion of food.  Another GI doc I went to later told me that he thought Nexium was bad for long term use, and patients should use diet to control the problem. I ultimately followed his advice and the pills are in my past.

You should do what you think is best but it never hurts to ask the doctor is a pill is the only or best way to manage it. I've noticed that when we ask my mom's doctors about pills, some docs quickly back off the directive and say it's optional. (I'm sure that is recorded in the record)

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