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We Need a Wealth Tax


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3 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Absolutely nothing in the Cloak Room is funnier to me than Incredulity thinking he's a business expert.

Is this where we post paystubs, or business school degrees?

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5 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Is this where we post paystubs, or business school degrees?

No, it's just where we laugh at you for trying to look smart by constantly dropping bizness knowledge out of context. Keep up the mad libs.

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what will happen to supercar and superyacht and private jet manufacturers

but that family has a 7 million acre ranch that's been in the family for generations

but their great-granpappy started the whole empire from a nickel store

Someone Comments GIF

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, BradInATX said:

 

I don't disagree with any of this but saying we can't do something because it's difficult is pretty wimpy.

And I can guarantee you that the stupid people who vote against their own interests because they've been conditioned to believe billionaires are their betters would scream even louder about a forced government dilution than they would a wealth tax. 

I started reading this thread backwards after pos repping posts for the wealth tax. The more argument I saw as I backed up a page, the more I wondered if I knew what the thread was about. 

The counter arguments are a mish-mash of GOP policy talking points (if you take any money from the rich, no one will want to be rich! If there are no rich, who will give us jobs and other largesse? The wealthy are the geniuses who build great businesses! Absurdities for the brainwashed or those new to the topic.) and well written new arguments that are clearly sincere.

What of these intelligent posters who defend the extremely wealthy, I wonder. Perhaps, I was hasty in pos repping their counterparts. Perhaps this wealth tax is draconian because their arguments sound like there isn't much point in being worth more than $50M. There are also issues of technical difficulty. 

I scroll back. Now I'm concerned. I find the Warren tweet. I google wealth tax.

Quote

The proposal, called the Ultra-Millionaire Tax Act and released with Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal of Washington and Congressman Brendan Boyle of Pennsylvania, would put a 2% annual tax on households and trusts between $50 million and $1 billion. It would also put a 1% annual surtax on households and trusts over $1 billion. The lawmakers say the move would level the playing field and narrow the racial wealth gap. 

"This is a wealth tax that has been needed for a long time. We need it to produce more revenue, to create more opportunity in American," Warren said. "But it is a wealth tax that we particularly need because of the changes in this country under the pandemic. We have watched the wealth of the billionaire class in America increase by more than a trillion dollars over the last year."

My pos reps are secure. 

I can't say that I'm in favor of walking on eggshells around billionaires of color anymore than I would be of pale ones.

Any wealthy person resisting this tax is a POS. This is a pretty simple token of solidarity with your fellow citizens. You don't even have to get dressed up and go to a gala to parade the absurdity of the rich throwing lavish parties for themselves and sending the leftovers to their charity of choice.

Bill Gates ought to get all of his fellow wealthy good citizens (no irony) to join together in public support of this. 

It would actually be good for the country. Imagine that.

 

Edited by RomaVicta
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This is the real problem with it.  It will set up perverse investment incentives to keep wealth out of easily valued cash-equivalent investments.
It would probably be more feasible and fundamentally fair to tax income and gains as they are made.

It will just get moved around and laundered. The middle class are going to buy a shitload of magazines.
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1 hour ago, Snake Diggity said:

Yeah, not sure if you’re surprised, but wading into a thread with “I’m an expert and you are wrong but I won’t explain how or why” is worthless.

I see what you are saying, but people don't want to doxx themselves.  If you follow @G650 posting history it's somewhat apparent he's full of shit here.  And really all he's done is contend macro statements.  

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If they get hit by the tax every year, that means the company has maintained a value of >$50 million and it's doing just fine. They'll be fine.

And if they die, their generational wealth gets divided among their kids and possibly puts them below the threshold.

This is trending toward the old HF discussion of the millionaires and billionaires will lose all incentive to work if they have to pay taxes.
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2 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I see what you are saying, but people don't want to doxx themselves.  If you follow @G650 posting history it's somewhat apparent he's full of shit here.  And really all he's done is contend macro statements.  

He can explain why he thinks a wealth tax can be easily implemented without doxxing himself.  I don’t care about his credentials. If his point makes sense, I’m all ears, but if he doesn’t care to explain it, then best not to comment in the first place.

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Just now, Nivek said:


And if they die, their generational wealth gets divided among their kids and possibly puts them below the threshold.

This is trending toward the old HF discussion of the millionaires and billionaires will lose all incentive to work if they have to pay taxes.

It's extremely funny to me that so many people still think the wealthy won't want to bother working any more if their taxes go up (whether it be income taxes, capital gains taxes, or a wealth tax). Now and historically speaking, we're talking about a select class of people who are so pathologically addicted to making money that they're essentially constantly breaking the law and pissing off a larger and larger share of the population wherever they live, risking fines, imprisonment, and even violent revolution. But yeah, they'll just abandon it all if they can only increase their net worth by $480 million instead of $500 million in a year. 

God, how'd America ever even survive the 50s?

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Man, "wealth tax is racist" is a take.  haha

Also, the "how are they going to pay it each year without liquidating assets" is breathtakingly stupid.  Have you met Mr. Morgan or Mr. Fargo? They will happily lend you some money to pay that tax.  

 

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3 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I started reading this thread backwards after pos repping posts for the wealth tax. The more argument I saw as I backed up a page, the more I wondered if I knew what the thread was about. 

The counter arguments are a mish-mash of GOP policy talking points (if you take any money from the rich, no one will want to be rich! If there are no rich, who will give us jobs and othter largesse? The wealthy are the geniuses who build great businesses! Absurdities for the brainwashed or those new to the topic.) and well written new arguments that are clearly sincere.

What of these intelligent posters who defend the extremely wealthy, I wonder. Perhaps, I was hasty in pos repping their counterparts. Perhaps this wealth tax is draconian because their arguments sound like there isn't much point in being worth more than $50M. There are also issues of technical difficulty. 

I scroll back. Now I'm concerned. I find the Warren tweet. I google wealth tax.

My pos reps are secure. 

I can't say that I'm in favor of walking on eggshells around billionaires of color anymore than I would be of pale ones.

Any wealthy person resisting this tax is a POS. This is a pretty simple token of solidarity with your fellow citizens. You don't even have to get dressed up and go to a gala to parade the absurdity of the rich throwing lavish parties for themselves and sending the leftovers to their charity of choice.

Bill Gates ought to get all of his fellow wealthy good citizens (no irony) to join together in public support of this. 

It would actually be good for the country. Imagine that.

 

 

The first half was quite the emotional rollercoaster.

To your later point, the billionaires are not stupid and have to understand that what the wealth-hoarding is terrible for our society and democracy and will eventually be the downfall of it. Right? Are they just figuring they'll be dead by the time it matters? Or they're just so addicted to wealth generation that they can't see it?

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6 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

Man, "wealth tax is racist" is a take.  haha

Also, the "how are they going to pay it each year without liquidating assets" is breathtakingly stupid.  Have you met Mr. Morgan or Mr. Fargo? They will happily lend you some money to pay that tax.  

 

We care about you if you have over $50M. We're good hearted that way.

Sorry, Lobo. I have to agree that the argument is ill-founded.

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1 minute ago, BradInATX said:

 

The first half was quite the emotional rollercoaster.

To your later point, the billionaires are not stupid and have to understand that what the wealth-hoarding is terrible for our society and democracy and will eventually be the downfall of it. Right? Are they just figuring they'll be dead by the time it matters? Or they're just so addicted to wealth generation that they can't see it?

I won't deny that it's human nature. Look at how we "deal" with the coming climate cataclysm. 

If we don't go full post-historic, this will be called the century of idiots that followed the century of dreadful wars.

Doing a little bit to ease the wealth disparity or face the climate crisis is so little to ask. 

Socialsim! Fake science! Fake news! Teachers are ruining our children! What about those other guys!?!?!

Idiot World. It's not just for breakfast!

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16 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

 

The first half was quite the emotional rollercoaster.

To your later point, the billionaires are not stupid and have to understand that what the wealth-hoarding is terrible for our society and democracy and will eventually be the downfall of it. Right? Are they just figuring they'll be dead by the time it matters? Or they're just so addicted to wealth generation that they can't see it?

Billionaires have mobility that others do not.  Bezos could spin a globe and gain citizenship to that nation before it stops. 

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Who is going to do all these valuations for personal financial statements?   Its not Forbes saying this guy is worth this.  I would think that most people "worth" $50 million + have a significant portion of their wealth tied up in private companies or equipment or property.  And a lot of them are only worth what someone is willing to pay for them.  Not what some auditor decides they are worth.

Not all of those assets are just producing an excess of $1 million per year.  There will be a good bit of debt taken on to pay those taxes, not that anyone here cares.

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4 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

Who is going to do all these valuations for personal financial statements?   Its not Forbes saying this guy is worth this.  I would think that most people "worth" $50 million + have a significant portion of their wealth tied up in private companies or equipment or property.  And a lot of them are only worth what someone is willing to pay for them.  Not what some auditor decides they are worth.

Not all of those assets are just producing an excess of $1 million per year.  There will be a good bit of debt taken on to pay those taxes, not that anyone here cares.

I allow them the same level of concern they show me. In fact, I likely show more concern because I don't want to deprive them of much of what they have. They, through their political party, have shown nothing but contempt for the health, living situation, or hunger of those outside of their own class.

Charity galas notwithstanding, of course.

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8 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Billionaires have mobility that others do not.  Bezos could spin a globe and gain citizenship to that nation before it stops. 

The point about the death of democracy is not a light one. If somebody cares more about 1% of their vast wealth than they do about the country, then fuck them. 

The dark side of the death of democracy point is how it comes apart. Violence and instability punctuated by killing.

Should the wealthy spit out this tax "burden" they take the Marie Antoinette position. It didnt' end well for that pretty head. See, here I am caring more about the wealthy than they do about me.

(I don't mean to pin the anti-tax arguments on you, Nivek. Your point is narrower and correct.)

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41 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

Looks like I'm going to have to sponsor one hell of a surly happy hour to get under the threshold. 

I wouldn't mind a mil as a gift, and I'd still be under that 50mil threshold.

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18 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

To your later point, the billionaires are not stupid and have to understand that what the wealth-hoarding is terrible for our society and democracy and will eventually be the downfall of it. Right? Are they just figuring they'll be dead by the time it matters? Or they're just so addicted to wealth generation that they can't see it?

Billionaires hang out with people of equal wealth, not guys that work the fry basket at KFC. They spend all day sniffing each others farts and convincing themselves that their lifestyles and constant accumulation of wealth is the natural order of things. Its not a new phenomenon.  

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56 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I see what you are saying, but people don't want to doxx themselves.  If you follow @G650 posting history it's somewhat apparent he's full of shit here.  And really all he's done is contend macro statements.  

@G650  LOL I meant to type NOT full of shit.  But you are a sailor, and a Bama guy, so...

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13 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I allow them the same level of concern they show me. In fact, I likely show more concern because I don't want to deprive them of much of what they have. They, through their political party, have shown nothing but contempt for the health, living situation, or hunger of those outside of their own class.

Charity galas notwithstanding, of course.

They're literally fine with all of us dying from a pandemic. You and I show them way more concern than they show us.

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1 hour ago, workswithseed said:

Why should anyone have any wealth? Why not be taxed 100%?

To drive economic growth, development, and activity.

Do you have a more robust argument regarding $200M being an insufficient amount of money for an individual to make that happen or are you just trolling?

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

To your later point, the billionaires are not stupid and have to understand that what the wealth-hoarding is terrible for our society and democracy and will eventually be the downfall of it. Right? Are they just figuring they'll be dead by the time it matters? Or they're just so addicted to wealth generation that they can't see it?

Yes, they know.
Yes, they know it won't impact them or their kids.
Yes, they are addicted to wealth accumulation.

Warren Buffet and Bill Gates will explain the problems to you and then actively work against their solution. They are addicts.

Edited by bad_teammate
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The entire point of accruing and investing capital is to make more money doing less work. Literally the entire point.

Bill Gates worked harder to make his first $200M than he did to make the next $1130M.

 

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20 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

The entire point of accruing and investing capital is to make more money doing less work. Literally the entire point.

Bill Gates worked harder to make his first $200M than he did to make the next $1130M.

 

The old aphorism, "The first million is the hardest".

Also, maybe it's just a difference in what we value and the way we view the world, but are you saying you think it's actually a *bad* thing to try and accrue money in order to make money and do less work? That seems like the American Dream to me. Do the people who don't believe this want to be Howard Roark and eschew knowledge work and lay bricks in honest work with their hands because that's the only noble work with integrity?

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2 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

The old aphorism, "The first million is the hardest".

Also, maybe it's just a difference in what we value and the way we view the world, but are you saying you think it's actually a *bad* thing to try and accrue money in order to make money and do less work? That seems like the American Dream to me. Do the people who don't believe this want to be Howard Roark and eschew knowledge work and lay bricks in honest work with their hands because that's the only noble work with integrity?

The problem is that they never actually stop working. It's just the type of work they direct their energies to is different. 

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1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

The point about the death of democracy is not a light one. If somebody cares more about 1% of their vast wealth than they do about the country, then fuck them. 

The dark side of the death of democracy point is how it comes apart. Violence and instability punctuated by killing.

Should the wealthy spit out this tax "burden" they take the Marie Antoinette position. It didnt' end well for that pretty head. See, here I am caring more about the wealthy than they do about me.

(I don't mean to pin the anti-tax arguments on you, Nivek. Your point is narrower and correct.)

I agree.   I am impressed what has already happened and how we continue to function out of hope this will get corrected and be brought back into balance but I am also continuously surprised by the lengths some will go to perform mental gymnastics to avoid reality.    As long as we have bread and circuses we are complacent to a degree, but the oligarchs have the tried and trued xenophobia to unveil as a distraction when convenient.    

Your parenthetical comment was not needed, I understand nuance, and I understood where you were going.   (Lastly, I want to thank you for a google wormhole I just escaped.  Apparently the rumors of a black baby extended farther back in history than I would have imagined.)  

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14 minutes ago, trauma babe said:

The problem is that they never actually stop working. It's just the type of work they direct their energies to is different. 

Let me apologize ahead of time, I'm not the smartest guy in the world as you know...but how is this, even, a problem? 

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 Saw this old vid pop up today on the wealth tax.  obviously the devil is in the details.  From very light reading, the warren plan strives to account for some of the failings of the wealth tax instituted in Europe

- euro was based on residency and not citizenship.  euros were obviously freer to move around and reside in neighboring countries to avoid the tax.  

- euro had a lower $$ amount trigger the tax.  Spain's is something like $800K you start getting taxed.

- Austria could not afford to keep up with all the work of appraising and maintaining tabs on the wealthy's assets.  Warren wants to set aside 100B in the hopes of collecting $3.5T over 10 years.  I picture a cottage industry spawning like there is for home appraisal for taxing.  People repping their client to argue that "this Monet is not really worth $5M, it's probably a fake, in fact..."

The list goes on.  

 

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25 minutes ago, StassneyHorn said:

I no longer plan on having a net worth of $50,000,001 in the future. 50 million is where I draw the line and become lazy.

Not even pursuant to this conversation, I’m pretty sure I’d be done at about 20m. I can imagine it’d be hard to do any work between enjoying my hobbies and living off whatever about 15m was bringing in thru safe investments. 

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1 hour ago, Blotto said:

Billionaires hang out with people of equal wealth, not guys that work the fry basket at KFC. They spend all day sniffing each others farts and convincing themselves that their lifestyles and constant accumulation of wealth is the natural order of things. Its not a new phenomenon.  

Bill Gates: Hey Bob do you want to smoke this bowl?

Bob Broke: No, Billy, I got to work and extra shift this evening, our electricity company hit us with a $800 bill for one day, and get this, there was a brown out.

Bill Gates: Your loss dude.

Bob Broke: Hey, how about you save that for tomorrow and we get high as a kite and go walk around in a park?

Bill Gates: No can do homes, I have Zoom with the DRC about a water plant we want to build, it looks like they are running over budget and will underserve the community and I need to get on top of that shit.   The engineers are great, so I am not sure how to unfuck this and the plastic trash is unfucking believeable.  How can the wettest nation not have clean drinking water that is being sold to them by some asshole hundred millionaire types?  Oh and then Oprah wanted to call me, probably to fix her computer and then I have a 4 PM dinner at the Louve with the misses.  Happy wife and all that.

Bob Broke: yeah man, I get it.  Last week we ran out of pickles.  How did the manager let that happen?  People were pissed.  

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1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

I allow them the same level of concern they show me. In fact, I likely show more concern because I don't want to deprive them of much of what they have. They, through their political party, have shown nothing but contempt for the health, living situation, or hunger of those outside of their own class.

Charity galas notwithstanding, of course.

I’m not concerned with your sympathy towards someone with $50 million+. I’m more concerned with how this works. First, who determines what someone is worth?  This is a massive job and much different than calculating income, and much less accurate.   And in this situation would have to be done every year. 
 

And as I said, not everyone is spinning off the liquidity needed to pay this. Different than an estate tax where the person is no longer here and can be planned for years. 
 

This would trigger a big sell off of assets each year for liquidity. And I’m wondering who the buyers would be, especially if those assets are privately held. 

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Think of all the fun we could have around here with a million dollars?  Just sayin...
Your buying right? Surly Christmas party so you can stay below threshold every year?
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LOL, so I just need to take your word for it? 
When I first saw this I was going to say...I would for sure...then I scrolled and saw g650 handled it himself

So I just came back to ...lmao
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