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2020 NBA Offseason Thread (Abbreviated) -- Draft, Free Agency, Trades, etc


Patrick Bateman

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16 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

For sure, you have to keep the MVP. I'm pretty sure he was going to sign that supermax regardless. But most importantly, I think they gave up too much for Holiday. I'm not sure he moves the needle enough for me and especially given that they are going to be handicapped with the pieces they put around Giannis going forward. And if Jrue doesn't work out and they can't compete, Giannis just has to go in and demand a trade like Harden is doing and the Bucks get to bend over and take it. Like NOLA did with Anthony Davis, the Spurs did with Kawhi, etc. NBA action.... it's FAAAAAAN-TASTIC!

As an aside, I also have PTSD from the Spurs dumping picks for guys like Kurt Thomas and Nazr Muhammed and then one day looking up at the roster and realizing how devoid of young talent and ancient everybody was. When they kept their picks, they did pretty well drafting late. If they don't draft and develop George Hill, then they can't trade up to get Kawhi Leonard. 

I hear ya.   If Holiday can put together a couple playoff series like he did against POR a few yrs back, he moves the needle greatly over what Bledsoe and Hill would/did.   Even if he doesn't, he is a better scorer than either and a better defender than either.   It does seem like a lot but even if falls through and they find that they have to trade Giannis they can recoup those picks

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Middleton is the guy who im nonplussed by. He is nowhere near a legit no.2 player on a championship contender, and yet he gets treated like he's Pippen, or AD, or D Wade or any one half of Stockton/Malone, Duncan/Robinson, Kobe/Shaq, or even bitchass Kyrie Irving when he was no.2 in CLE. He's a slightly better version of a young Joe Johnson, at best. Why Milwaukee decided that they didn't need Brogdon while crowning Middleton as their no.2 i will never understand, and regardless of what else they do, as long he's their no.2, or any part of a "Big 3", then i can't see Milwaukee even sniffing a title. If they had kept Brogdon and moved Middleton they'd be a helluva lot closer to a title than they are/have been since letting Brogdon go. 

Edited by shadow_operative
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4 hours ago, BradInATX said:


 

 


Yeah, he is. By a lot.

Holiday is one of the most underrated players (by fans.. the players know) in the league and Bledsoe is fucking terrible.

 

 

4 hours ago, d2o said:

Yeah I agree with this.   He way better than Bledsoe.   Also, the rumors are the Giannis will sign his supermax and stay.   If this is another move toward that even better.

 

1 hour ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Man I disagree, Bledsoe simply isn't any good.  And his lack of outside shooting makes him an even worse fit with Giannis. There's an argument to be made that George Hill is better than Bledsoe, especially alongside Giannis. 

So..... I absolutely get why folks think this and I prefer Jrue as well, mainly because he's a really good defender, but the numbers don't really bear this one out.  Now, playing with a better surrounding cast can often result in a player's bump in efficiency and sometimes shooting Bledsoe disappeared in the playoffs, so there's a need to account for this, but it's not a huge numbers difference.

Bledsoe is actually almost 30 though.

Advanced last year:

Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% 3PAr FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG%   OWS DWS WS WS/48   OBPM DBPM BPM VORP
1 Eric Bledsoe 2019-20 30 61 1646 17.6 .571 .306 .304 2.8 13.5 8.5 28.7 1.6 1.4 15.7 23.7   2.4 3.0 5.4 .157   0.8 1.1 1.8 1.6
2 Jrue Holiday 2019-20 29 61 2117 17.0 .537 .344 .181 3.8 10.9 7.3 29.1 2.2 1.9 14.5 24.5   2.0 1.9 3.9 .088   1.6 0.2 1.8 2.0

Again, I'd rather have Jrue and if Giannas likes this and re-signs then it's all worth it, but some of the thought that Jrue is a vastly superior player doesn't really match up with the numbers and 3 point shooting certainly isn't a big gap if we look at the last 3 years.

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Just now, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Dumb point/count point question. If jrue made little to no noise with Anthony Davis, why would it be any different with Giannis?

Lots of reasons. They did make noise a couple years ago when they swept Portland. But:

- Alvin Gentry is a terrible coach
- The Pelicans are a terrible organization whose GM that entire time was literally also the Saints football GM. 
- They had awful roster construction for most of Holiday's time there. Excluding a two year stint with DeMarcus Cousins (when they swept Portland as the 6th seed), the third best player on the team was either Tyreke Evans and Julius Randle, both of whom are terrible.
- Holiday has been grossly misused as a high-usage ball-handler. He needs to be a secondary ball handler and slasher/creator who occasionally spots up for a catch and shoot. He was forced into more of a hybrid PG/SG role because Lonzo Ball and Tyreke Evans are both shitty. 

I think you're going to see Holiday end up as a late career bloomer who shined and had the best years of his career once he got away from the Pelicans dogshit franchise. 

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12 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

Middleton is the guy who im nonplussed by. He is nowhere near a legit no.2 player on a championship contender, and yet he gets treated like he's Pippen, or AD, or D Wade or any one half of Stockton/Malone, Duncan/Robinson, Kobe/Shaq, or even bitchass Kyrie Irving when he was no.2 in CLE. He's a slightly better version of a young Joe Johnson, at best. Why Milwaukee decided that they didn't need Brogdon while crowning Middleton as their no.2 i will never understand, and regardless of what else they do, as long he's their no.2, or any part of a "Big 3", then i can't see Milwaukee even sniffing a title. If they had kept Brogdon and moved Middleton they'd be a helluva lot closer to a title than they are/have been since letting Brogdon go. 

 

I agree and shared similar thoughts about Middleton even before the playoffs started last year when @Wulaw Horn called me crazy for thinking the Bucks were not a serious title contender. But Middleton is now their third best player and he's probably a good enough 3rd best player to be on a championship team.

 

2 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

 

 

So..... I absolutely get why folks think this and I prefer Jrue as well, mainly because he's a really good defender, but the numbers don't really bear this one out.  Now, playing with a better surrounding cast can often result in a player's bump in efficiency and sometimes shooting Bledsoe disappeared in the playoffs, so there's a need to account for this, but it's not a huge numbers difference.

Bledsoe is actually almost 30 though.

Advanced last year:

Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% 3PAr FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG%   OWS DWS WS WS/48   OBPM DBPM BPM VORP
1 Eric Bledsoe 2019-20 30 61 1646 17.6 .571 .306 .304 2.8 13.5 8.5 28.7 1.6 1.4 15.7 23.7   2.4 3.0 5.4 .157   0.8 1.1 1.8 1.6
2 Jrue Holiday 2019-20 29 61 2117 17.0 .537 .344 .181 3.8 10.9 7.3 29.1 2.2 1.9 14.5 24.5   2.0 1.9 3.9 .088   1.6 0.2 1.8 2.0

Again, I'd rather have Jrue and if Giannas likes this and re-signs then it's all worth it, but some of the thought that Jrue is a vastly superior player doesn't really match up with the numbers and 3 point shooting certainly isn't a big gap if we look at the last 3 years.

 

Do playoffs tho. I expect a lot of grumbling about the move during the regular season. Then the playoffs will come and everyone is going to be like "oh.. yeah, that makes sense now".

Edited by BradInATX
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Let me demonstrate why this is a great move and why the Bucks did it.

Damian Lillard. I'll let you guys figure out which year he played against Holiday. He turned one of the best offensive players on the planet into a negative offensive piece. Literally erased him.

image.thumb.png.086c93e0fe96c35fefa082abe2f41710.png
 



Edited by BradInATX
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7 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

 

I agree and shared similar thoughts about Middleton even before the playoffs started last year when @Wulaw Horn called me crazy for thinking the Bucks were not a serious title contender. But Middleton is now their third best player and he's probably a good enough 3rd best player to be on a championship team.

 

 

Do playoffs tho. I expect a lot of grumbling about the move during the regular season. Then the playoffs will come and everyone is going to be like "oh.. yeah, that makes sense now".

Bingo, Bledsoe has been fucking terrible the last two yrs in the playoffs.

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11 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

 

 

So..... I absolutely get why folks think this and I prefer Jrue as well, mainly because he's a really good defender, but the numbers don't really bear this one out.  Now, playing with a better surrounding cast can often result in a player's bump in efficiency and sometimes shooting Bledsoe disappeared in the playoffs, so there's a need to account for this, but it's not a huge numbers difference.

Bledsoe is actually almost 30 though.

 

That tweet is misleading at best.   As you said Bledsoe is 30 but he avg'd 14.9/4.5/6.5 this yr.   Those numbers quoted are from when he was 27.

 

More importantly he shot 38.8% from the field and 25% from 3 in the playoffs this past season.  He was a complete liability

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4 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Let me demonstrate why this is a great move and why the Bucks did it.

Damian Lillard. I'll let you guys figure out which year he played against Holiday.

 

image.thumb.png.086c93e0fe96c35fefa082abe2f41710.png

 

Yea, Jrue is a really good defender and that's why I'd rather have him, but it wasn't just Jrue that series but schemed to funnel to the hard trap in the lane on both the Portland guards (before Nurkic made his big jump too).  Again, I'd rather have Jrue, although he doesn't have a huge playoff resume', he played fantastically 3 years ago. 

3 minutes ago, d2o said:

That tweet is misleading at best.   As you said Bledsoe is 30 but he avg'd 14.9/4.5/6.5 this yr.   Those numbers quoted are from when he was 27.

 

More importantly he shot 38.8% from the field and 25% from 3 in the playoffs this past season.  He was a complete liability

Already noted.  I think Bledsoe's playoff disappearance is what got him the boot and that's fair.   The advanced were from last season.  We're going to see if Jrue is the missing link, personally, I've been on the bandwagon that the Bucks made a horrible decision to extend Bledsoe and not Brogs, who I think is maybe a better player than both, certainly a better contract, younger, and wouldn't have cost you 3 firsts and 2 draft swaps.

So, if this is true, then makes sense for the Bucks..... but if they simply would have made a better decision last year, then they probably don't have to pay such a hefty price.

 

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2 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Yea, Jrue is a really good defender and that's why I'd rather have him, but it wasn't just Jrue that series but schemed to funnel to the hard trap in the lane on both the Portland guards (before Nurkic made his big jump too).  Again, I'd rather have Jrue, although he doesn't have a huge playoff resume', he played fantastically 3 years ago. 

Already noted.  I think Bledsoe's playoff disappearance is what got him the boot and that's fair.   The advanced were from last season.  We're going to see if Jrue is the missing link, personally, I've been on the bandwagon that the Bucks made a horrible decision to extend Bledsoe and not Brogs, who I think is maybe a better player than both, certainly a better contract, younger, and wouldn't have cost you 3 firsts and 2 draft swaps.

So, if this is true, then makes sense for the Bucks..... but if they simply would have made a better decision last year, then they probably don't have to pay such a hefty price.

 

Agree wholeheartedly with the Brogdon v Bledsoe mistake.    Its done now though.   Gotta try and move forward.

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3 minutes ago, Zonahorn said:

 

David Griffin is actually good at his job, unlike Dell Demps

Interesting.   So the picks are even further out.   Two ways to look at that.    Those have a better chance at being good picks.    

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1 minute ago, BradInATX said:

That's wild.

By the 2030s the draft is just going to be 5 or 6 terrible teams alternating picks as the rest of the league mortgaged their future chasing superteams. It'll just be a first round rotating between NOLA, Atlanta, the Knicks and the crying Jordan Bobcats.

How are you gonna forget OKC and their 8 billion picks?

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3 minutes ago, d2o said:

Definitely makes it harder to defend 

Yeah. It's a championship or bust move. I can't knock the hustle but that's a move that you have to win a ring or it was a bust. 

I wonder if at some point the NBA is going to step in and limit how far out you can trade picks. You've got teams trading picks so far out that the current coaches, players, and GM won't ever have to deal with it. 

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51 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Yeah. It's a championship or bust move. I can't knock the hustle but that's a move that you have to win a ring or it was a bust. 

I wonder if at some point the NBA is going to step in and limit how far out you can trade picks. You've got teams trading picks so far out that the current coaches, players, and GM won't ever have to deal with it. 

I imagine they have to have a limit in place already.  If not, there will be a team trading their first 10 yrs from now soon.     The Stepien rule is the rule so they have to alternate yrs as is.   Teams started adding the picks swaps in the other yrs to get around that recently.    Every CBA rule they add teams figure out a way around it.

Edited by d2o
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30 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Houston blowing it up and OKC has two of their draft picks in the next few years.....

Next year's pick swap is protected 1-4, 2024 is protected 1-4, 2025's pick swap is protected 1-10, and 2026 is protected 1-4.

So this isn't like Miami getting the #1 pick in the NFL draft from the Texans awful, and the Rockets could definitely make up for some of it with the draft pick hauls from Harden and Westbrook.

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4 hours ago, BradInATX said:

Yeah. It's a championship or bust move. I can't knock the hustle but that's a move that you have to win a ring or it was a bust. 

I wonder if at some point the NBA is going to step in and limit how far out you can trade picks. You've got teams trading picks so far out that the current coaches, players, and GM won't ever have to deal with it. 

Great points... the NBA super team roster bullshit for free agents needs to changed or some of the smaller market teams won't survive.

I've always  rooted for the teams in Texas, and other smaller market teams.  If changes aren't made, I'm concerned that none of these teams will ever be in the NBA Finals again.

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2 hours ago, Horn of Gabriel said:

Wait Harden, Kyrie, and KD?  How are there enough shots for that lineup?

 

There arent.   Gonna be a train wreck and I'm HERE FOR IT!!

 

Wonder what the odds are on who asks out first.

Edited by d2o
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23 minutes ago, LTtxfan said:

Great points... the NBA super team roster bullshit for free agents needs to changed or some of the smaller market teams won't survive.

I've always  rooted for the teams in Texas, and other smaller market teams.  If changes aren't made, I'm concerned that none of these teams will ever be in the NBA Finals again.

meh

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4 minutes ago, d2o said:

 

There arent.   Gonna be a train wreck and I'm HERE FOR IT!!

Along with being the worst defensive backcourt in the history of the league. I still think it's a guaranteed conference finals appearances in the East, but they're going to have some warts for sure. They can all shoot, so that's helpful. 

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31 minutes ago, LTtxfan said:

Great points... the NBA super team roster bullshit for free agents needs to changed or some of the smaller market teams won't survive.

I've always  rooted for the teams in Texas, and other smaller market teams.  If changes aren't made, I'm concerned that none of these teams will ever be in the NBA Finals again.

Texas teams are small market?  Houston, San Antonio, and Dallas are the 4th, 7th, and 9th largest cities in the country.

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3 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

Texas teams are small market?  Houston, San Antonio, and Dallas are the 4th, 7th, and 9th largest cities in the country.

Shit SF/Oak was small market for about 30 yrs then all of a sudden they weren't.   Funny how good management can actually change your market size.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

Texas teams are small market?  Houston, San Antonio, and Dallas are the 4th, 7th, and 9th largest cities in the country.

Television, not population, determines market size. San Antonio is 31st with a .81 share. New York and LA combined control a little over 11%. Plus, while San Antonio’s population is large, there’s not a lot of Fortune 500 companies. Dallas and Houston are not small market, but San Antonio most definitely is.

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1 minute ago, Kermit said:

Television, not population, determines market size. San Antonio is 31st with a .81 share. New York and LA combined control a little over 11%. Plus, while San Antonio’s population is large, there’s not a lot of Fortune 500 companies. Dallas and Houston are not small market, but San Antonio most definitely is.

Seems counter-intuitive.  Most SA residents are fat and lazy, right?  Wouldn't laying on the couch watching tv be right up their alley?

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28 minutes ago, LTtxfan said:

Shut Up LA... 😁

San Antonio is a pretty small market..... TV markets is typically how they're judged.  San Antonio is the 31st TV market.  Dallas and Houston...... yea, they're not small market.

Whoops, that was for Bruin, but the point remains...

Edited by Patrick Bateman
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