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Post-Beard Game 6: Ok State @ Texas, 8pm, LHN


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16 minutes ago, Rickylovesweed said:

With the regression defensively since Beard left and the overall improvement offensively this season I do wonder if we are focused on the wrong assistant. 

Based on interactions on the sideline it looks to me like Donewald is running the show on offense. 

He is. Terry was in charge of the defense under Beard and Beard/Donewald focused on the offense. At least that is the way that Terry described it.

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1 hour ago, Rickylovesweed said:

I think with this team it’s figuring out when to run and not run. 

Last night I really didn’t understand Oklahoma States strategy. They normally play really slow but this was the game they wanted to pick up tempo? Yeah, they scored but it was a losing strategy playing that way. Which is why it was never really competitive.

I don’t know what the balance is but I don’t mind giving up more points if you know a team can’t run with you. The key is figuring out which games you need to make it more of a half court slugfest. 

Blanks kept wondering why the hell OSU was trying to go fast and how it favored Texas.

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13 minutes ago, Js1 said:

I might go streaking if we win 2 games. 

You say I’m a selfish asshole for taking more than 10 items to self-checkout, yet you’d be willing to subject the public to the horror of your nudity. Ironic.

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11 minutes ago, Helobious said:

You say I’m a selfish asshole for taking more than 10 items to self-checkout, yet you’d be willing to subject the public to the horror of your nudity. Ironic.

I can streak around my house and subject no one but my dog to that, and he's seen it plenty since he doesn't know the word privacy.

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Jimmy Johnson (when the Cowboys were a real. good. team....a team you could actually root for without wish-casting violence on Jerrah... ) :

"Just win baby."

 

No one, at this point, with these circumstances, should be borrowing anxiety from the future.

Take the wins and love it, bitch away on blast for the losses.

That all we got, really.

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4 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Maybe rencher convinced them to do it

Sleeper agent.  Love it. 

I said last night it feels like we haven't swept OSU in ages

2016 was the last time we swept OSU.  Took 7 fucking seasons to do it again - fuck you Shaka.  I'll never forget how our 2019-2020 season ended with getting blown out at home to OSU on Senior Day and then COVID happened.

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3 hours ago, Js1 said:

Blanks kept wondering why the hell OSU was trying to go fast and how it favored Texas.

Boynton is the weakest coach in the Big 12. 

With Cunningham at the 5, Oklahoma State went inside 1 time against Texas. Some pretty dumb coaching decisions last night. 

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6 hours ago, Revolution512 said:

Okie St isn’t great but they can defend. We just hung 89 on a team that was ranked in the top 10 in defensive efficiency right? Texas took it to them and made them play fast. There’s things to like without question.

they also had wide open looks from three on essentially every single possession. our perimeter defense last night (and ever since beard was canned, but especially last night) would make chris beard cry. it's jarring, to think back to our defense pre-terry, and to now see crappy teams with more athletes than hoopers getting wide open looks every single time down the floor. 

this team is season 4 community. i doubt very many of you watched community, when show runner dan harmon got canned from his own show after three seasons, they kept making the show, only it was *clearly* not up to the same standard. how i've described it is, "it's like they took all of the characters and sets from community and then made a totally different show." that's what this team is. it's the same cast of characters and settings, but the product is undeniably inferior. i really am at a loss as to why anyone, or in this case many of you, insist that this isn't so. 

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4 hours ago, El Squared said:

Jimmy Johnson (when the Cowboys were a real. good. team....a team you could actually root for without wish-casting violence on Jerrah... ) :

"Just win baby."

 

No one, at this point, with these circumstances, should be borrowing anxiety from the future.

Take the wins and love it, bitch away on blast for the losses.

That all we got, really.

Just win baby also worked when Al Davis said it back in the day.

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1 hour ago, shadow_operative said:

they also had wide open looks from three on essentially every single possession

Dude, we get what you are saying but get a damn grip. They were 8 of 26 from deep, including several in the last 2 minutes that were contested tough shot prayers. We are 137th out of 363 teams in opponent 3-point % (32.9%). If you want a reference point, last year were 75th out of 358 (31.9%) with Beard at the helm the entire season. 1 percent difference. 1 out of every 100. Relax. Yes, this team needs to tighten up their defensive rotations. We all acknowledge it. But it isn't the end of the world or as dramatic as you are making it seem.

Edited by Hookem2147
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8 hours ago, MotownHorn said:

honestly who fucking cares? that's over and done with. Chris Beard is gone and he's never coming back as our head coach.

You said repeatedly that losses during the regular season under Beard were no big deal because that's part of his coaching philosophy. Now we're winning under Terry and apparently that is no big deal because KenPom.

i'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. i'm not in here yelling at clouds, i'm having a back and forth with other posters here. you act like i'm rushing in here to trash rodney terry and to downplay our wins (aka your MO with rick barnes and his thread) when that's not remotely the case. other people here say that this team is a big xii title contender and that we haven't fallen off at all, that it's simply that our competition has gotten tougher. i do not agree. that doesn't mean i'm in here hating on terry or downplaying anything about our wins.

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I noticed a lot of late rotations on 3 balls as well. Ok St was pretty ice cold for the most part so it didnt matter. Wouldn't want that to happen against a team that is lighting it up from 3 on a particular night. That might lead to some bad things, like say Kansas St coming into your building and putting up 116 and shooting over 50% from BTA.

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6 hours ago, David Dennison said:

I just hope we win a couple of tournament games. That would be phenomenal, all things considered.

as i've posted a couple of times already, this season for me is 100% about what we do in the postseason. in early december this team was a legit contender to win the big xii outright and to even win the ncaa tourney. those two things now appear to be extremely unlikely. with that said, this team's ability to run and to score under Terry gives me every hope that we can win the big xii tourney (something that i've honestly never cared about before, but with everything this team has been through i really want to see them win some hardware), and even make a run to the elite 8 if not the final four.

so while i no longer see this team as being capable of winning the league, this is still a good team, and one that's certainly capable of making multiple deep postseason runs. i fully believe in this team come March, and in really hopeful that they play (and shoot) to their potential. if this team shoots well in march, there isn't a team in the country they can't beat.

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57 minutes ago, Hookem2147 said:

Dude, we get what you are saying but get a damn grip. They were 8 of 26 from deep

dude, join reality- okie state shoots 32% from deep as a team, putting them 264th nationally in 3P%. your idea that it's ok to give up wide open three point shots every time down the court because one bad offensive team couldn't take advantage of it is preposterous. this team has gone from being elite at defending the three point line to being godawful at it. it's arguably  the biggest, most glaring change from Beard's Texas teams to RT's Texas team. it's a real issue, and this pollyanna, head in the sand, "this isn't an issue because we're still winning games" take is not a good one.

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under beard:

opponents shot 26.7% from deep. 17th best in the country.

CD7DEAF9-FECA-4CF2-82D9-C92F4BFEB7D7.thumb.jpeg.e3a890edcebebccb7acda7f2fd53ddd8.jpeg

 

under Terry:

opponents are now shooting 32.9% against us, ranking 137th in the country, and those stats include all of the games where teams were shooting less than 27% against Texas.

1A85A8FE-F5F7-4107-B712-1F002977439E.thumb.jpeg.bb9b570c5aa49cf3dabd7f8ef0671729.jpeg

you guys can trash kenpom and turn a blind eye to reality all you want- it won't change the facts: this team is clearly nowhere near the defensive team it was under beard. i don't know why that's such a contentious take, as it was to be expected in the first place, and as we've all witnessed it with our own eyes. this team's ceiling has been lowered. nobody likes it, but that's the way it is, and lashing out at kenpom, or at people who use statistical evidence to support their arguments won't change anything.

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also, here's why in my opinion the defensive fall-off lowers our ceiling despite the uptick in offense:

top 10 teams in AdjD: 

F0903519-0A8F-4A5B-8A3D-5FE6E11FF9F5.thumb.jpeg.a9c8c00de31476f58b79cb81ac019e5f.jpeg

average kenpom ranking: 12.3

top 10 teams in AdjO:

CA72CFEA-334A-44B9-95D5-771C06322839.thumb.jpeg.c69cb4b0a8f58cadf82cff046ccbbca0.jpeg

average kenpom ranking: 21.9

a)i've been following this stuff for years, and the elite defensive teams simply tend to be more highly ranked than the elite offensive teams 

and b)it's really really difficult to have a great offensive night for six consecutive games, the last five of which are against good-great teams. elite defense keeps you alive in those situations. for me, elite offense is fun, but elite defense is more likely to take you far, assuming you aren't inept offensively.

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5 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

 

and b)it's really really difficult to have a great offensive night for six consecutive games, the last five of which are against good-great teams. elite defense keeps you alive in those situations. for me, elite offense is fun, but elite defense is more likely to take you far, assuming you aren't inept offensively.


You remember that we held ACU to 53, right? 

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56 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

i'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. i'm not in here yelling at clouds, i'm having a back and forth with other posters here. you act like i'm rushing in here to trash rodney terry and to downplay our wins (aka your MO with rick barnes and his thread) when that's not remotely the case. other people here say that this team is a big xii title contender and that we haven't fallen off at all, that it's simply that our competition has gotten tougher. i do not agree. that doesn't mean i'm in here hating on terry or downplaying anything about our wins.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is you're acting like a guy who got dumped and can't get over it.

In that situation people do the whole "oh this would have been so much better with ______. Things were so much better when _____ was around." You put on rose-colored glasses and romanticize the person who's gone.

That's the way it feels with you and Chris Beard. 

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3 minutes ago, MotownHorn said:

I guess the point I'm trying to make is you're acting like a guy who got dumped and can't get over it.

In that situation people do the whole "oh this would have been so much better with ______. Things were so much better when _____ was around." You put on rose-colored glasses and romanticize the person who's gone.

That's the way it feels with you and Chris Beard. 

that's a very strange way to look at reality. romanticizing? dude get real. we were clearly, undeniably better under beard, be wise he is a much much better coach than rodney terry. nobody is rewriting history here, some of you just refuse to face reality. 

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21 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

I don't think this is breaking news.  

edit- for context, jimmy's post that i'm quoting here was in referencing to me talking about how we've fallen off a step or two without chris beard. he responded by saying that that's not exactly breaking news, which i agree with. now, my response:

 

i almost responded to this last night but decided not to because i didn't want to come off as overly negative. what i was going to say was, "tell that to all of the people here who insist that this team hasn't fallen off without coach beard", but again, i thought that might come off as being argumentative or negative. ffwd 24 hours and you can see for yourself- lots of people here who not only don't see any fall off under RT, but who are getting pretty chippy towards me for stating otherwise. "blinded by kenpom", and "romanticizing our time under beard". it's all frankly asinine. the mere idea that you lose one of the truly elite HC's in all of college basketball and then experience no fall off sounds ludicrous enough, and yet here we are. 

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5 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

edit- for context, jimmy's post that i'm quoting here was in referencing to me talking about how we've fallen off a step or two without chris beard. he responded by saying that that's not exactly breaking news, which i agree with. now, my response:

 

i almost responded to this last night but decided not to because i didn't want to come off as overly negative. what i was going to say was, "tell that to all of the people here who insist that this team hasn't fallen off without coach beard", but again, i thought that might come off as being argumentative or negative. ffwd 24 hours and you can see for yourself- lots of people here who not only don't see any fall off under RT, but who are getting pretty chippy towards me for stating otherwise. "blinded by kenpom", and "romanticizing our time under beard". it's all frankly asinine. the mere idea that you lose one of the truly elite HC's in all of college basketball and then experience no fall off sounds ludicrous enough, and yet here we are. 

You’re getting shit on for your take because you seemingly don’t understand that the fall off on defense has mostly coincided with playing conference teams.  The worst team in the Big 12 would be at worse our 3rd hardest non-conference game.  Yes there has been a fall off on defense but that was to be expected with or without Beard simply because of the increase in competition.

Our ceiling has not fallen, it’s just become less likely to be achieved than with Beard.  Our ceiling has stayed the same but our floor has fallen.  We can still win the Big 12, Big 12 tournament and a NC.  As always March success will mostly be based on the matchups we draw.

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11 minutes ago, txhorns said:

You’re getting shit on for your take because you seemingly don’t understand that the fall off on defense has mostly coincided with playing conference teams.  

no it hasn't, this was already covered up thread.

B16EB481-205E-47DE-821B-658C4DB6907A.thumb.jpeg.1198a176af851c59e888e84c0aee601a.jpeg

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I think a lot of people don't understand that kenpom is opponent adjusted. You can inflate your #s by blowing out bad teams but the difference between thumping a shitty team and barely beating a good team is marginal. 

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I tend to align with Derka on this, we do look worse since Beard left, at least on defense, and it's not just because the Big 12 is the toughest conference in basketball.

That said, I can completely dismiss the Rice game in hindsight because our guys were obviously reeling and distracted.  And, it's no great revelation that our opponents have on average gotten better in conference than out.  That said, our defense is obviously suffering.  I'm not entirely sure our offense hasn't gotten better, though, so even though I don't see it as a wash, the two do mitigate to some degree.

What I don't agree with is the idea that we are somehow a long shot to win the conference title.  Sorry, but tied for 1st nearly halfway in does not make a team a long shot.  We're sitting ABOVE Kansas and Baylor, for fuck's sake, but like some sort of beaten wife our fans seem to think it unlikely that we could possibly split those 4 games, or god forbid maybe even sweep one of those schools.

This doesn't appear to be the same Big 12 as it was the last several years, with an even better basement and probably no elite teams.  Beyond that, it actually seems that we are better than we have been in quite a while.  For fuck's sake, enjoy the ride.  And no, let's not hire Rodney.

Edited by jimmyjazz
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1 hour ago, jimmyjazz said:

I tend to align with Derka on this, we do look worse since Beard left, at least on defense, and it's not just because the Big 12 is the toughest conference in basketball.

That said, I can completely dismiss the Rice game in hindsight because our guys were obviously reeling and distracted.  And, it's no great revelation that our opponents have on average gotten better in conference than out.  That said, our defense is obviously suffering.  I'm not entirely sure our offense hasn't gotten better, though, so even though I don't see it as a wash, the two do mitigate to some degree.

What I don't agree with is the idea that we are somehow a long shot to win the conference title.  Sorry, but tied for 1st nearly halfway in does not make a team a long shot.  We're sitting ABOVE Kansas and Baylor, for fuck's sake, but like some sort of beaten wife our fans seem to think it unlikely that we could possibly split those 4 games, or god forbid maybe even sweep one of those schools.

This doesn't appear to be the same Big 12 as it was the last several years, with an even better basement and probably no elite teams.  Beyond that, it actually seems that we are better than we have been in quite a while.  For fuck's sake, enjoy the ride.  And no, let's not hire Rodney.

we're tied for first with the 3rd easiest schedule played thus far and we don't have any unexpected wins. we should be out ahead of teams like KU and BU with the schedule that we've played, but if you actually look ahead and prognosticate our future games, we've got essentially all of our toughest games ahead of us.

if tyrese hunter can return to his early season form then i will absolutely be back to buying Texas as conference title contender. until then, with our defense a shell of its former self and our offense essentially missing one of its best weapons, i can't pick Texas to win this conference.

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1 hour ago, jimmyjazz said:

 

This doesn't appear to be the same Big 12 as it was the last several years, 

Big XII Conference Rating according to kenpom going back to 2018:

2018- 16.75 (1st nationally)

2019- 17.68 (1st) 

2020- 15.73 (2nd)

2021- 16.55 (2nd)

2022- 18.74 (1st, by a huge margin)

2023- 18.31 (first, by a huge margin)

 

so far in 20203 this conference is as tough as its ever been. 

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There is a huge amount of runway ahead.  They could be anywhere from a 1 -5 seed depending on what happens. All I know is that to me the defense looks late and sloppy. I also don’t think that the team plays with as much discipline as they did with Beard. 
It’s unfortunate.  We were really on to something before Beard got canned. 
That being said, I really like the players and I certainly think that it’s possible they could put it together at the right time. 
Bottom line is championship teams win big games on the road and so far that really hasn’t happened. 

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Just now, shadow_operative said:

so far in 20203 this conference is as tough as its ever been. 

OK, I know you're jonesing for a fight, but I never said otherwise.  You specifically cut off the second half of my sentence so you could make a point that I wouldn't even argue against.  SO, just in case you can't scroll up, I said:

This doesn't appear to be the same Big 12 as it was the last several years, with an even better basement and probably no elite teams.

I was referring to the distribution of team strength within the conference, not the overall conference strength.  The Big 12 has had the last two NCAA champions along with the runner-up to round out the last 3 tournaments.  I don't think such a team exists in the conference this year, BUT I think top to bottom it is brutal, and the "worst" team is better than the "worst" team in prior years, and by no small amount.  It's just a different conference dynamic.

Capiche?

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3 minutes ago, CTC2 said:

Bottom line is championship teams win big games on the road and so far that really hasn’t happened. 

I mean, how about some context? We’ve played 4 road games and are 3-1. You play the schedule you have and any road win in this conference is a good win. Obviously more opportunities are ahead.

Last years team won 4 road conference games (TCU, Kansas State, OU and WVU) and we are already at 3 this year with 5 more to play.

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12 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

Like say 62 home runs and then getting swept? 

If Yordan was chasing it you’d have thought it was a huge deal.

And imagine bragging about sweeping a team with Aaron Hicks, Kiner-Falefa, and Donaldson on the roster. That’s like thinking you have an awesome rowing team and ignoring the fact that your competitors had 3 50-ton anchors weighing it down. And fucking Aaron Boone as their coxswain /tangentrant

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8 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

For fuck's sake, enjoy the ride.  And no, let's not hire Rodney.

Help me understand how to do that. If the ride is good enough, we're hiring Terry. It's debatable what "good enough" is, but it's not debatable if the season goes well enough, he's our coach for the next few years. 

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9 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

edit- for context, jimmy's post that i'm quoting here was in referencing to me talking about how we've fallen off a step or two without chris beard. he responded by saying that that's not exactly breaking news, which i agree with. now, my response:

 

i almost responded to this last night but decided not to because i didn't want to come off as overly negative. what i was going to say was, "tell that to all of the people here who insist that this team hasn't fallen off without coach beard", but again, i thought that might come off as being argumentative or negative. ffwd 24 hours and you can see for yourself- lots of people here who not only don't see any fall off under RT, but who are getting pretty chippy towards me for stating otherwise. "blinded by kenpom", and "romanticizing our time under beard". it's all frankly asinine. the mere idea that you lose one of the truly elite HC's in all of college basketball and then experience no fall off sounds ludicrous enough, and yet here we are. 

This is why I refrain from posting for the most part when I start getting really negative. People don't want to hear it, especially when ostensibly the team is doing well. Which they are.

The key difference for me in the defense Beard and post Beard, is that Beard's defense simply didn't give up many 3 point opportunities. It often wasn't the percentage of shots the opponent made from beyond the arc. It was the fact they shot so much fewer of them than they were used to.

It's funny. They call it the no middle defense, and there are good reasons for that. But when I watch Beard's defense what I think of as his priorities are 1) don't give up transition points. He will sacrifice about anything not to give up transition points. In particular offensive rebounding. But simply the way the guys rotate in and out on offense, there's a focus on getting back in transition even while players are attacking the hoop off the dribble.

Beyond that, it's 2) not to give up easy shots from the perimeter. It's a big reason why he recruits the way he does. Sure, a huge part of it is to defense pick and roll and screening action, but it's also to aggressively defend the perimeter. 

The other thing he emphasized was 3) shutting down half the court and make the the other offense make difficult skip passes to the open man with a guy flying out to his face as soon as the ball rotation came. 

I don't see the same smoothness nor intensity on defense with Terry as the head coach. Also, the substitution patterns don't make as much sense to me. I just feel one of Beard's huge strengths was managing the roster - from year to year, game to game, and within a game. I'm not saying he was perfect. But Terry doesn't have the same feel for when to go to his bench and why. It's being covered somewhat in my opinion by roster construction. 

motown makes the comment Derka sounds like someone who has been dumped. It's more like the woman I loved beat a child in front of me with a closed fist, or something equally horrific. I'm the one who did the dumping. But man, I really wish they hadn't done what they did. 

Anyway, I'm glad for all of you who are getting joy out of this season. The players deserve our support. Heck, Terry and the rest of the staff deserve our support. They didn't ask for any of this. 

But I have a fear that Terry will be the next head coach, and it prevents me from an unadulterated joy regarding the team's success this year. That's not your problem. That's my problem.

In any case, perimeter defense isn't nearly as aggressive or effective. It's not as much about percentage of makes, and more about how many shots on goal from the beyond the arc opponents' are attempting. 

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8 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

@Js1 you should start the tennessee thread early so we can some talk going on what will be a pretty big game for multiple reasons. 🤘🏼 

I’ll start it today 

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9 hours ago, Helobious said:

If Yordan was chasing it you’d have thought it was a huge deal.

And imagine bragging about sweeping a team with Aaron Hicks, Kiner-Falefa, and Donaldson on the roster. That’s like thinking you have an awesome rowing team and ignoring the fact that your competitors had 3 50-ton anchors weighing it down. And fucking Aaron Boone as their coxswain /tangentrant

I'm not the one who showed blatant hypocrisy. I appreciate stats, including Judge's. You followed along breathlessly all summer as a stat was chased by a loser and then come in here with that stupid take that only wins and losses matter and nobody pays attention to stats. 

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4 hours ago, SL Xpress said:

Help me understand how to do that. If the ride is good enough, we're hiring Terry. It's debatable what "good enough" is, but it's not debatable if the season goes well enough, he's our coach for the next few years. 

I don't know man. I think that would need to be a Final Four. Maybe not even then. 

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Y'all need to keep in mind this is the best or maybe 2nd best (we don't need to address the 2021 SNAFU) roster Texas has had in over a decade. 

Yes a SS would be nice but that should be more of a baseline for these guys. 

11-7 in B12 play at this point would be a disappointment. I'd give Terry zero credit for that.

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3 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

That should be what it takes just to make him a candidate for the job. 

Yeah, if the hire were being made strictly on resume.  I think an element of appearances will factor in, unfortunately.  I think a sweet 16 run makes it difficult for CDC & Co to "fire" him.  Granted he doesn't have the job so he can't be fired as HC, but to lay people it will look like a coach who "overcame adversity" and "proved he is deserving of a shot" is being fired.

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10 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

jesus christ man, stop projecting this shit onto me every single time i disagree with you. how many more times are you going to do this for no reason?

The post prior to that I literally posted "I tend to align with Derka on this", so know, I'm not projecting.

The problem with your response is that you mischaracterized my position.  No big deal.  Happy Thursday.

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