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wild_turkey

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On 11/10/2023 at 3:57 PM, Woodrow Call said:

I'm not a fan of electric vehicles for many of the reasons already mentioned in this thread. The mining, but also the human cost. Much of the labor is supplied by poor workers and they're exposed to a number of harmful things in the production. Obviously, fossil fuel is a huge issue, but every can of coke and every pill we consume is dependent upon fossil fuels. It's not going away. 

The answer to all of this, if it's an answer, is reduced use and scaling back population growth. The population is sustained by industrial agriculture (another huge problem), so as agriculture continues to experience the effects of climate change, the human population will inevitably decline. None of us want mass starvation and death, but nature bats last. We can either control it on our own, or Mother Nature will do it for us. 

But having been involved in this area for nearly 40 years, I've largely given up hope. Addressing our ecological problems requires massive change in human behavior, and in the United States, this seems highly unlikely. Americans are all about individual freedom and the community comes second.  It also will require us to address growth capitalism, a system that is by its very nature unsustainable. You can't have unlimited growth in a closed system. In biological terms, we call uncontrolled growth of cells a cancer. It's ultimately fatal. 

I find this pessimism a bit lost and deeply anti-human. 

All cars use a shit load of metals, plastics, and rubber, which has to be mined or harvested. The *marginal difference* with electric car is the battery, which is lithium, nickel, graphite.  Congolese children don't work extracting lithium from Chilean deposits.  If you are buying a new car today, buying an electric car over a traditional car is a *net good* decision.

Homo sapiens -- nay, all *hominids* -- is a speck of dirt on the history of the Earth.  We are neither owed anything by it, nor owe anything to it.  For the microsecond on the cosmic scale that we as individuals exist on this earth, we only have to optimize our time on it. Is that a "selfish" motivation? Sure is. So are 99.99% of decisions we've ever made across any other dimension in life. I'm not governing my life based on what might happen to this round ball in 3 million years.

I want the best life for me and for my family. I eat red meat, because it is delicious. I compost and recycle, because it makes *me* feel good, at a cost of *nothing*. I'm not wantonly wasteful, because it's not satisfying. But I'll splurge on my kids, if satisfies them.

And we should want to have kids, because it's the best and safest time in human history to be alive. They'll benefit from the accumulated knowledge and technological advancement from 50,000 years of scribbling graffiti on cavewalls. 

If you -- relatively privileged people from the privileged parts of the world -- dont want to have kids, it's not going to matter.  People from the relatively laggard parts of the world are going to have them *anyway.*  Generation-for-generation, they'll just live a slightly worse life than your kids might have. And they'll steer the future in a relatively worse direction than your kids might.  (this is merely broad level extrapolation).

Either way, they can all be fed. Surely you've heard, access to food has not been a natural problem of production - its been an 'artificial' problem of distribution. Take the look at global food yield, and show me what 'effects of climate change' its been experiencing.  Also note the relative growth of yield vs population.

**

TLDR civilization has been doing good, actually. The world is not ending soon. You dont have to believe in what Swedish teenagers say and do things because Greta told you to. You can do good things, for the sake of feeling good.

I choose not to be doomer-pilled. You can too.

all-the-metals-we-mined-infographic-2021-updated-scaled.jpg

crop-yields.png

population.png

index-of-cereal-production-yield-and-land-use.png

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26 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

I find this pessimism a bit lost and deeply anti-human. 

All cars use a shit load of metals, plastics, and rubber, which has to be mined or harvested. The *marginal difference* with electric car is the battery, which is lithium, nickel, graphite.  Congolese children don't work extracting lithium from Chilean deposits.  If you are buying a new car today, buying an electric car over a traditional car is a *net good* decision.

Homo sapiens -- nay, all *hominids* -- is a speck of dirt on the history of the Earth.  We are neither owed anything by it, nor owe anything to it.  For the microsecond on the cosmic scale that we as individuals exist on this earth, we only have to optimize our time on it. Is that a "selfish" motivation? Sure is. So are 99.99% of decisions we've ever made across any other dimension in life. I'm not governing my life based on what might happen to this round ball in 3 million years.

I want the best life for me and for my family. I eat red meat, because it is delicious. I compost and recycle, because it makes *me* feel good, at a cost of *nothing*. I'm not wantonly wasteful, because it's not satisfying. But I'll splurge on my kids, if satisfies them.

And we should want to have kids, because it's the best and safest time in human history to be alive. They'll benefit from the accumulated knowledge and technological advancement from 50,000 years of scribbling graffiti on cavewalls. 

If you -- relatively privileged people from the privileged parts of the world -- dont want to have kids, it's not going to matter.  People from the relatively laggard parts of the world are going to have them *anyway.*  Generation-for-generation, they'll just live a slightly worse life than your kids might have. And they'll steer the future in a relatively worse direction than your kids might.  (this is merely broad level extrapolation).

Either way, they can all be fed. Surely you've heard, access to food has not been a natural problem of production - its been an 'artificial' problem of distribution. Take the look at global food yield, and show me what 'effects of climate change' its been experiencing.  Also note the relative growth of yield vs population.

**

TLDR civilization has been doing good, actually. The world is not ending soon. You dont have to believe in what Swedish teenagers say and do things because Greta told you to. You can do good things, for the sake of feeling good.

I choose not to be doomer-pilled. You can too.

all-the-metals-we-mined-infographic-2021-updated-scaled.jpg

crop-yields.png

population.png

index-of-cereal-production-yield-and-land-use.png

I never said I was against having children. I have children and grandchildren; however, all populations, human or otherwise, have limits in closed systems. But it is a fact that industrial agriculture has made population growth possible. I'm not saying I'm against it or for it. I'm only stating a fact, and it is also a fact that the more humans you have the more consumption you'll have.  'Twas ever thus. 

And no, we don't "owe" the earth anything, but it makes good sense to not poop in ones own nest. 

With respect to your statement, "Congolese children don't work extracting lithium from Chilean deposits," you might also want to consider this

Edited by Woodrow Call
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7 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Whatever happened with the development of hydrogen powered cars?

It's coming, but the tech is way behind EV tech.  Toyota was banking on hydrogen fuel cells over EVs, but they saw they were going to be left behind the EVs if they didn't go that route for at least a while.

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12 minutes ago, Woodrow Call said:

I never said I was against having children. I have children and grandchildren; however, all populations, human or otherwise, have limits in closed systems. But it is a fact that industrial agriculture has made population growth possible. I'm not saying I'm against it or for it. I'm only stating a fact, and it is also a fact that the more humans you have the more consumption you'll have.  'Twas ever thus. 

And no, we don't "owe" the earth anything, but it makes good sense to not poop in ones own nest. 

With respect to your statement, "Congolese children don't work extracting lithium from Chilean deposits," you might also want to consider this

You might not be "against" having children, and I believe you have and love your N-2 offsprings, but the general sentiment of "humans = bad" is common amongst the climate doomer community, and active promotion of population reduction is their belief.  It is also a plain fact, and also in that graphic, that wealthier and more educated slices of the population have far fewer children than the rest. That's not an optimal situation, broadly speaking.. *insert Mike Judge reference here*.

 

4 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Whatever happened with the development of hydrogen powered cars?

Compressing gas at high pressures and transporting it from station to station seems way less good than delivering electricity.  Which we already do pretty much everywhere.

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1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

I find this pessimism a bit lost and deeply anti-human. 

All cars use a shit load of metals, plastics, and rubber, which has to be mined or harvested. The *marginal difference* with electric car is the battery, which is lithium, nickel, graphite.  Congolese children don't work extracting lithium from Chilean deposits.  If you are buying a new car today, buying an electric car over a traditional car is a *net good* decision.

Homo sapiens -- nay, all *hominids* -- is a speck of dirt on the history of the Earth.  We are neither owed anything by it, nor owe anything to it.  For the microsecond on the cosmic scale that we as individuals exist on this earth, we only have to optimize our time on it. Is that a "selfish" motivation? Sure is. So are 99.99% of decisions we've ever made across any other dimension in life. I'm not governing my life based on what might happen to this round ball in 3 million years.

I want the best life for me and for my family. I eat red meat, because it is delicious. I compost and recycle, because it makes *me* feel good, at a cost of *nothing*. I'm not wantonly wasteful, because it's not satisfying. But I'll splurge on my kids, if satisfies them.

And we should want to have kids, because it's the best and safest time in human history to be alive. They'll benefit from the accumulated knowledge and technological advancement from 50,000 years of scribbling graffiti on cavewalls. 

If you -- relatively privileged people from the privileged parts of the world -- dont want to have kids, it's not going to matter.  People from the relatively laggard parts of the world are going to have them *anyway.*  Generation-for-generation, they'll just live a slightly worse life than your kids might have. And they'll steer the future in a relatively worse direction than your kids might.  (this is merely broad level extrapolation).

Either way, they can all be fed. Surely you've heard, access to food has not been a natural problem of production - its been an 'artificial' problem of distribution. Take the look at global food yield, and show me what 'effects of climate change' its been experiencing.  Also note the relative growth of yield vs population.

**

TLDR civilization has been doing good, actually. The world is not ending soon. You dont have to believe in what Swedish teenagers say and do things because Greta told you to. You can do good things, for the sake of feeling good.

I choose not to be doomer-pilled. You can too.

all-the-metals-we-mined-infographic-2021-updated-scaled.jpg

crop-yields.png

population.png

index-of-cereal-production-yield-and-land-use.png

While it's your right to behave and act in whatever manner you want within legal guardrails, there are a lot of people who are not so materially and self-centered in their focus and impetus for their actions in this life. Lots of folks have belief systems that fall somewhere on the spectrum that humans, the miraculous form made from specs of dust as you said, are and should be good stewards of the world we inhibit. That extends to being good stewards of the environs we live to the holistic environment-- animals, oceans, and curtailing the negative impacts on climate where that can be reasonably controlled, etc. etc. That means sometimes sacrificing the optimal gain for the selfish purposes of humans, especially in the short-term.

Edited by BeardIP
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1 hour ago, BeardIP said:

While it's your right to behave and act in whatever manner you want within legal guardrails, there are a lot of people who are not so materially and self-centered in their focus and impetus for their actions in this life. Lots of folks have belief systems that fall somewhere on the spectrum that humans, the miraculous form made from specs of dust as you said, are and should be good stewards of the world we inhibit. That extends to being good stewards of the environs we live to the holistic environment-- animals, oceans, and curtailing the negative impacts on climate where that can be reasonably controlled, etc. etc. That means sometimes sacrificing the optimal gain for the selfish purposes of humans, especially in the short-term.

Well said.  These two schools of thought (yours vs 52-80s) are much like John Muir vs Gifford Pinchot in terms of conservation.

Muir believed in conservation of nature as a temple or spiritual vessel for humans, whereas Pinchot believed in using resources in a "responsible" way (I wouldn't say sustainable) for the people who live here NOW.

I fall more to the Muir side of the spectrum, but Pinchot has some decent points as well.

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1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

You might not be "against" having children, and I believe you have and love your N-2 offsprings, but the general sentiment of "humans = bad" is common amongst the climate doomer community, and active promotion of population reduction is their belief.  It is also a plain fact, and also in that graphic, that wealthier and more educated slices of the population have far fewer children than the rest. That's not an optimal situation, broadly speaking.. *insert Mike Judge reference here*.

 

Compressing gas at high pressures and transporting it from station to station seems way less good than delivering electricity.  Which we already do pretty much everywhere.

Derrick Jensen is an example of someone that is very much against humans and sees humans as the core problem. I have strong issues with many of his views. But just to clarify my own position...I don't see humans as "bad." I see some human behaviors as bad and believe those behaviors (and certain economic views) as bad. 

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1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

The tech I've seen is based on electrolysis of H2O.

The only “hydrogen powered car” im aware of are the extant FCEV represented commercially by a few models. 

Theres 1 fueling station very near to me. There used to be 2, but one literally blew up a few years ago. 

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1 hour ago, Woodrow Call said:

Derrick Jensen is an example of someone that is very much against humans and sees humans as the core problem. I have strong issues with many of his views. But just to clarify my own position...I don't see humans as "bad." I see some human behaviors as bad and believe those behaviors (and certain economic views) as bad. 

unsustainable fuel / power / pollutive byproducts + unsustainable single use plastic practices + further destruction of environment for development

it's pretty hard to see a sustainable planet where humans and the natural world co-exist successfully with these three practices.

not anti-human, but we continually fail to consider all stakeholders in conversations on these topics.

Edited by troph
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10 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

To add some humor to this depressing thread, it's funny how the one unifying concept of most people around sustainability seems to be, "I hate single use plastics and want to do everything I can that is convenient to help-- EXCEPT PAPER STRAWS!"

uncooked pasta straws for the win!!

I fucking hate straws and haven't said anything about them because it's a high level target to make fun of progressives for the do nothing crowd.

Edited by troph
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20 minutes ago, mdmost said:

Am I uncouth because I never use a straw at a restaurant or fast food place? I don't understand why I would worry about germs in a glass if I'm not worried about germs on the plate or utensils they are providing me. 

I'm the same way and my wife thinks I'm crazy. Having worked in the service industry in various roles while I was in college, the cups are the LEAST of my concerns.

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2 minutes ago, TankedBevo said:

Having worked in the service industry in various roles while I was in college, the cups are the LEAST of my concerns.

Per my recollection of working in restaurants, one's chief concern should have been STDs picked up from a co-worker during shenanigans after closing time.

Allegedly.

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5 hours ago, BeardIP said:

While it's your right to behave and act in whatever manner you want within legal guardrails, there are a lot of people who are not so materially and self-centered in their focus and impetus for their actions in this life.

If a person wants to be the Mother Teresa of Earth stewardship, kudos to them, im a fan of self-agency. 

My point is that harboring weltschmerz over impending catastrophization of humankind is a very regressive belief system. In part because it is blind to the spectacular advancement humans have made so far, and will continue to make to support life. 

When my granddad grew up, the atomic structure was barely understood. Houses were lit with candles and oil lamps. The “airplane” glided the length of a football field. And he had never seen an automobile. When my dad grew up, there was nuclear energy, television was beamed down from satellites, and a human walked on the fucking moon. Now I can put a solar panel on my roof, harness electricity for free, and have it power a family sedan that goes 200 miles per hour. (Mine goes 160 from hydroelectric power but itll do). 

Human ingenuity did all that. 

If two spouses are of reasonable intelligence, make some kids. Chances are theyre going to be smart, capable, and their cohort together will produce some shit we cant even imagine to solve problems we havent even encountered.

My comments on being self-centered is not an endorsement of doing wanton wasteful shit, purely for the sake of it. Thats being a bad human. Modding an diesel truck to roll coal for jollies is bad juju. Owning one to occasionally tow a recreation boat is a prerogative that you should enjoy and not feel guilt over. 

So I will not flag hypocrisy against someone like @trophfor parking a F350 in his garage next to his Tesla. Hes probably a good human being making sensible choices, and a F350 with a Tesla is still better than 2xF350s.

I will pick a bone with someone like John Kerry flying around in private jets to sit in climate change conferences. NOT because I think his (“family’s”) jet contributes directly to the future calving of 1m3 of glacier that rises sea level and kills 4 bengali kids. But I think that level of hypocrisy is an insult to human integrity.

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12 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

My point is that harboring weltschmerz over impending catastrophization of humankind is a very regressive belief system. In part because it is blind to the spectacular advancement humans have made so far, and will continue to make to support life. 

"I don't believe in regression" - Ray Dalio

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For the record we have not burned a gallon of diesel since April. This year we have driven less than 500 miles with our F350. Conversely we’ve driven approximately 20,000 miles (some travel but mostly soccer mom shit) on electric power more than 2/3 of which originated from solar power.

Our electricity bill is somewhere between $50 per month (in the cooler months) and $220 per month (in the blast furnace months), with significant solar power pushed to the grid on extremely sunny days (anytime of year) and a significantly reduced draw during summer peak hours (afternoon sun or battery power early evenings).

we do as much as we can and will do more to reduce household waste and trash and hope to really step up composting to reduce methane produced from our household waste.

there’s probably more but fuck it I don’t care anymore.
 

In short we may not do enough but we are doing what we can to reduce carbon and help with clean energy.

BUT F350!!!!

I don’t tell anyone what to do. but by all means read my posts as telling others what to do.  And keep calling me a hypocrite or cozying up to that line if it makes you feel better.  
 

y’all have fun this thread is a fucking dumpster fire. 


 


 

 

Edited by troph
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42 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Her, fyi.

thats a lie. there are no women on the internet. 

 

14 minutes ago, troph said:

BUT F350!!!!

I don’t tell anyone what to do. but by all means read my posts as telling others what to do.  And keep calling me a hypocrite or cozying up to that line if it makes you feel better.  

I quite *literally* said I **dont** criticize your lifestyle as hypocritical - which is what someone else did upthread - and 3x said your choice in life should be yours guilt free. 
 

maybe once more en espanol instead?

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I think maybe troph was referring to the posters that originally criticized her for having a lake house and an F350.

The intent of this thread is not to criticize each other for things we do that are short of perfect. It’s just a place for discussion of various topics and to share ideas for how we can possibly improve or make more educated decisions. I appreciate some of the different viewpoints that are offered, even if I don’t agree with all of them.

I also don’t think sustainability is synonymous with carbon emissions or climate. It can apply to a lot of other areas in life, like what is the best type and source of fish to buy to avoid overfishing our oceans?

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57 minutes ago, Bevo&Pevo said:

In the last day or two, I'm starting to get this these guys advertising on the TV.  They claim no more plastic jugs.  Anyone use 'em?

Tru Earth Laundry Strips - Eco-friendly Laundry Detergent Sheets - Tru Earth

AI is watching me read this thread. 

Yep, got em.  They work fine.  

Right after I got them my MIL brought over a Costco size container of Tide pods, so I'm going through those before I refill on the Tru Earth ones.  I'm poor right now.

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On 11/9/2023 at 3:55 PM, Gil Bang said:

That's an area that I'm VERY familiar with.  It's one of the most economically-depressed areas in CA, and probably the US.  

And the Salton Sea, where I went waterskiing and fishing so many times as a youngster, is a mess. 

My mom was a helldiver. I don't know if they were still doing that when you were going, but I always thought it was the coolest thing. 

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5 minutes ago, Doc Sam Beckett said:

My mom was a helldiver. I don't know if they were still doing that when you were going, but I always thought it was the coolest thing. 

I don't know what that is.  I will look it up.  I've been going there since the mid 70's.  I was there two weeks ago.  It's special to me.  I'm still sad that Congressman Sonny Bono died tragically, because he was also a lifer down there.

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In the last day or two, I'm starting to get this these guys advertising on the TV.  They claim no more plastic jugs.  Anyone use 'em?
Tru Earth Laundry Strips - Eco-friendly Laundry Detergent Sheets - Tru Earth
AI is watching me read this thread. 

They appear to be significantly more expensive.

Tru Earth 64 laundry strips for $39.95

Tide 64 load (92 fl oz) laundry detergent for $12.99

I like things that are environmentally friendly, but I struggle when the cost is 3x higher.
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8 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

I don't know what that is.  I will look it up.  I've been going there since the mid 70's.  I was there two weeks ago.  It's special to me.  I'm still sad that Congressman Sonny Bono died tragically, because he was also a lifer down there.

She said it was put on by Helen's Place. If I remember correctly, you had to ski the length of the Sea during a competition or something, without falling, for 6 or 7 years straight. If you fell in year 4 or whatever, back to zero. She had a little trophy. It seemed like the place to be for a period of time 

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7 minutes ago, Doc Sam Beckett said:

She said it was put on by Helen's Place. If I remember correctly, you had to ski the length of the Sea during a competition or something, without falling, for 6 or 7 years straight. If you fell in year 4 or whatever, back to zero. She had a little trophy. It seemed like the place to be for a period of time 

Helen's Landing was certainly a thing.  I remember it well.    I'll bet that's it.  Thanks for this!

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42 minutes ago, wild_turkey said:


They appear to be significantly more expensive.

Tru Earth 64 laundry strips for $39.95

Tide 64 load (92 fl oz) laundry detergent for $12.99

I like things that are environmentally friendly, but I struggle when the cost is 3x higher.

When I was in Italy, I had to do laundry.  I found a laundramat.  Those sheets were the only thing that they sold. 

I can go to Sprouts and buy food in bulk.  Rice, grains, etc.  Why can't I bring my own container and fill it with laundry detergent from a 55 gallon drum? 

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On 11/13/2023 at 8:26 AM, 52-80 said:

 

population.png

 

Dang. Of course, I always knew Asia had the highest population, but I didn't realize it was that far ahead. And I honestly had no idea Africa was second. In the span of 25 years, they've gone from being tied with Europe to nearly double the population. Sheeeet.

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17 hours ago, troph said:

For the record we have not burned a gallon of diesel since April. This year we have driven less than 500 miles with our F350. Conversely we’ve driven approximately 20,000 miles (some travel but mostly soccer mom shit) on electric power more than 2/3 of which originated from solar power.

Our electricity bill is somewhere between $50 per month (in the cooler months) and $220 per month (in the blast furnace months), with significant solar power pushed to the grid on extremely sunny days (anytime of year) and a significantly reduced draw during summer peak hours (afternoon sun or battery power early evenings).

we do as much as we can and will do more to reduce household waste and trash and hope to really step up composting to reduce methane produced from our household waste.

there’s probably more but fuck it I don’t care anymore.
 

In short we may not do enough but we are doing what we can to reduce carbon and help with clean energy.

BUT F350!!!!

I don’t tell anyone what to do. but by all means read my posts as telling others what to do.  And keep calling me a hypocrite or cozying up to that line if it makes you feel better.  
 

y’all have fun this thread is a fucking dumpster fire. 


 


 

 

F350's are awesome. So are teslas. Don't apologize for driving either. 

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11 hours ago, wild_turkey said:


They appear to be significantly more expensive.

Tru Earth 64 laundry strips for $39.95

Tide 64 load (92 fl oz) laundry detergent for $12.99

I like things that are environmentally friendly, but I struggle when the cost is 3x higher.

Several options are cheaper and closer to price as plastic detergents but Tru Earth is probably one of the first to market and does much more marketing.

We bought "Beyond" detergent strips recently, not necessarily just from a sustainable, ecological POV but also because we were using the big liquid dispensers which were heavy and awkward for our 80+ live-in mother and messy as well. I decided to try these in lieu of pods or other alternatives.

If they work well I'll keep using them. They're space saving and I often try to encourage these businesses even if it's more expensive. Hopefully they are more environmentally sound and eventually more economical.

Generally, I'm all for efforts to re-think wasteful behaviors. Mankind's evolutionary history is to find / create a problem - craft a solution. The solution does not always arrive perfectly formed. But if the intent stays "pure" - in this case manufacturing less waste and ostensibly caring more for the environment and our symbiotic animal and plant friends - then that should drive better and better iterations.

Or minimally, it will result in a "compromise" between the pro and con groups until a future date when an even better solution is presented and more widely recognized/accepted.

 

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On 11/8/2023 at 11:36 PM, mchookem said:

if you live in a city that promotes recycling (scam or not) you definitely get into the habit. i honestly feel bad now, like 'i don't know what to do with this bottle/can/paper!' bad when i'm visiting my family in podunk east Texas and they're just piling up the beer and White Claw cans for the trash dump. it's weird how your psyche gets trained. 

if i still lived in Texas and had to live thru the summers i'd just have to give the middle finger to the 'Ercot urges conservation!' messages.

IT's funny, I've worked in DC on a lot of sustainability issues.  The best recycling programs are actually rural self sort at the dump.  It encourages people who care to actually do the work to sort Aluminum, Paper, Glass, then separate sort Plastics by 1,2, & 5. 

 

Single bin recycling is a total failure.  If you actually care, we should incentivize aluminum over plastic and glass, and use a deposit system to ensure the bulk of it gets recycled.   I also think that with modern scrubbers, if we are going to send so much garbage to the dump, we might as well burn it.  What's the point of pulling hydrocarbons out of the ground so we can turn it into a non degradable substance, then throw it away.  We might as well get some steam heat out of it. Every load of garbage you burn is a load of coal or gas you don't have to burn to keep the lights on. 

Edited by Bateshorn
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1 minute ago, Bateshorn said:

The best recycling programs are actually rural self sort at the dump.  It encourages people who care to actually do the work to sort Aluminum, Paper, Glass, then separate sort Plastics by 1,2, & 5. 

 

Single bin recycling is a total failure. 

When single stream became a thing, I immediately was skeptical.  The very fact that you can't recycle soiled paper makes single stream seem laughable.  When I was growing up and Austin first started curbside recycling, we had to separate.  It wasn't that hard, but I get the idea of single stream getting people more in the habit of recycling.

I bet if the city went back to making people sort, they would do it now, having gotten used to recycling over the past 20 years or so.

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8 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

When single stream became a thing, I immediately was skeptical.  The very fact that you can't recycle soiled paper makes single stream seem laughable.  When I was growing up and Austin first started curbside recycling, we had to separate.  It wasn't that hard, but I get the idea of single stream getting people more in the habit of recycling.

I bet if the city went back to making people sort, they would do it now, having gotten used to recycling over the past 20 years or so.

We rented a cabin in rural VA during Covid, and when took our recycling out to the dump, they actually had the glass broken down by color: green, brown, clear, other. It was amazing. Most glass breaks in single stream and is only useful in asphalt production.  By separating by color, you incentivize potentially refiring and using the glass. But again, that requires education and dedication. 

 

The advice I give everyone with recycling:  If you aren't 100% sure, throw it away.  Don't wish cycle.  It's far more harmful than just landfilling. 

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20 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

We rented a cabin in rural VA during Covid, and when took our recycling out to the dump, they actually had the glass broken down by color: green, brown, clear, other. It was amazing. Most glass breaks in single stream and is only useful in asphalt production.  By separating by color, you incentivize potentially refiring and using the glass. But again, that requires education and dedication. 

Again, I think back to the Mexican cokes I got as a kid. Return the bottles, get new ones. The bottles are cleaned, sanitized, refilled, and capped. No melting them down to turn into something else or other steps. Too damn simple to make sense. Run it through HEB, Coca-Cola picks them up and drops off new ones. 

Of course, I can imagine the howling of putting your lips to a bottle that someone else drank out of... despite the fact we reuse silverware at restaurants.

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31 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

The advice I give everyone with recycling:  If you aren't 100% sure, throw it away.  Don't wish cycle.  It's far more harmful than just landfilling. 

Expand on what you mean here.  Do you mean stuff like styrofoam and plastic packaging?  I think most of that gets filtered out, at least in Austin.  Not sure why it would be more harmful when it would end up in the landfill anyway.

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9 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Again, I think back to the Mexican cokes I got as a kid. Return the bottles, get new ones. The bottles are cleaned, sanitized, refilled, and capped. No melting them down to turn into something else or other steps. Too damn simple to make sense. Run it through HEB, Coca-Cola picks them up and drops off new ones. 

Of course, I can imagine the howling of putting your lips to a bottle that someone else drank out of... despite the fact we reuse silverware at restaurants.

Most of New England has bottle and can deposit and this is the way it works.  you wash and save your empties and take them back to the corner store and get your money back.  Which obviously you just turn around and buy another 12 or 24 pack. Beer companies want their bottles back to clean, refill, and label.  Otherwise glass is heavy and prone to breaking and spoiling other recyclables. 

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29 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

We rented a cabin in rural VA during Covid, and when took our recycling out to the dump, they actually had the glass broken down by color: green, brown, clear, other. It was amazing. Most glass breaks in single stream and is only useful in asphalt production.  By separating by color, you incentivize potentially refiring and using the glass. But again, that requires education and dedication. 

 

The advice I give everyone with recycling:  If you aren't 100% sure, throw it away.  Don't wish cycle.  It's far more harmful than just landfilling. 

As I recall, Ecology Action over on I35 (about 7th or 8th, don't remember exactly), had a similar sort it yourself deal. I liked the system, and it seemed like some good was actually being done. Only problem was that the volunteers were pretty sanctimonious, sort of like the old underground record store employees. Definitely too cool for a mere customer like me. 

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