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Sustainable living


wild_turkey

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I think we need a general thread on sustainability where we can discuss topics related to sustainable living. I'm mostly interested in lifestyle decisions and behaviors that we as individuals can make, rather than discussing bigger topics like public policy.

Here are some specific topics that come to mind:

  • Single use plastic
  • Recycling
  • Electric vehicles
  • Internet shopping and food delivery services
  • Lawn, gardening, and composting
  • Home energy demand
  • General purchasing decisions
  • Travel
  • ???

There is a wealth of information spread amongst surly posters, and some collaboration would be productive. Perhaps some positive encouragement or accountability would even be possible? I'm just spitballing a little bit, but anything we could do to help educate and guide each other towards a more sustainable lifestyle.
I'll put some of my initial thoughts in separate posts to make it easier to quote without creating a huge wall of text up front. Thanks in advance for those of you who wish to join the discussion.

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 Single use plastic

I think most reasonable people who are not climate change deniers would agree that single use plastic is bad for the climate and the planet. Plastic obviously has its positives, but it may also be one of the worst things we've ever done to this planet. There's plastic in the clouds, plastic in the Mariana Trench, the ocean is full of plastic, our bodies have microplastics in them. It's disgusting. It's been discussed throughout this site and I started an older thread about plastic in the environment here:

I still think it's a bit complicated when it comes to purchasing decisions, and I think much of this is intentional on the part of industry. For instance, I know that #1 plastic can be recycled in my city, and I trust that when I put it in the blue bin, it gets recycled. If this is actually true, then would I be better off buying orange juice in a plastic bottle or a paper carton? The #1 plastic bottle seems recyclable according to most sources, whereas the paper carton has a plastic liner that seems to complicate it's recycleability.

Or suppose someone wants a Coke, and their choice is the bottle that claims to be 100% recycled already vs. the aluminum can. We know the can is recycleable, but what about the energy and resources required to create it in the first place? How significant is that, and is it possible that the aluminum can could actually be the worse for the environment?

These types of dilemmas arise with many purchasing decisions, so it's often difficult for the consumer to choose. I personally don't always know the answer, hence the reason I think a thread like this would be useful for discussion and education.

I think it's easy to do simple things like taking reusable bags to the store. If I forget my bags at Target, they'll put my groceries in 15 different plastic bags. Sometimes individual bags for individual items, like the eggs and bread couldn't coexist. I'm surprised that's still commonplace in 2023, but here we are.

I'm interested in ideas to reduce plastic in other areas. One of our friends uses a business called a "refillery" that will refill common household items like detergent, dish soap, shampoo, etc into reusable containers. It seems like a great idea, but there isn't one in our city. Maybe Whole Foods does something similar? Central Market does not.

Edited by wild_turkey
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Recycling

This could easily be its own thread, but we'll try it here. I think most cities do a terrible job at educating residents on recycling. See my comments above about plastic. I'm shocked at how few of my friends even attempt to recycle, and with those that do, it seems like there is significant confusion or even lack of effort to get it straight.

Also recycling capabilities and procedures vary by city, so the resident has to make some effort to know what can be done. My city (Fort Worth) has a website to help, but even that website gives vague instructions. I tried to clarify if #5 plastic (yogurt and other food containers) can be recycled and they referred me to the website, which doesn't say specifically which plastics do. So, should I buy that yogurt or not? More importantly, why is almost every yogurt in a #5 plastic container when it seems recycling of #1 and #2 plastic is more ubiquitous?

What about recycling other things like batteries, old electronics, running shoes that you no longer use, garden hoses, scrap metal, etc?

I run quite a bit so I go through shoes fairly quickly. They're still in okay condition for wearing around but beyond their mileage limits for actual running. So they get converted to yard shoes, except that I have way too many retired running yard shoes, so they get ?thrown away? That doesn't feel right. I'm not sure they're actually good enough for Goodwill, but I did find several services that will take them, including this one:

https://gotsneakers.com/

I guess the point is, I'm trying to become more conscious about how I actually dispose of things. If it doesn't easily fit in the blue bin, and doesn't easily go to Goodwill, there may be other good options for stuff besides just throwing it away.

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Electric vehicles

They clearly seem to be the direction of the auto industry, which I personally support. My wife has a Tesla which is our primary vehicle. I have a 4Runner, admittedly not fuel efficient, but luckily it only gets used for ~30 miles a week.

One thing I wonder about the EV industry is the life cycle impact of a vehicle. Sure, using electricity is better than gasoline, probably even if the electricity source is dirty energy like coal, and a much better difference for people who can use clean energy. But how much good data is available to consumers on the impact of producing EVs (especially the batteries) and disposing of old EVs at the end-of-life? That isn't nothing. I blindly trust that the EV is still the better decision, but can someone share reliable data for this?

If we compare a Tesla 3 to a Honda Accord, over the life of the vehicles, including all production costs, energy, maintenance parts, etc...what is the expected environmental impact of each?

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Travel

I love to travel. It's an addiction that would be hard for me to give up, and I know that air travel in particular has a major carbon footprint.

So what happens when I purchase carbon offsets from the airline? Is that truly a good thing to do? Are they donating my $10 to a reliable cause like planting mangrove trees, or are they simply wasting it? Is there a better way to purchase carbon offsets on my own from a 3rd party independent from the airline?

I guess the ideal thing would be to travel less, or not at all, or at least not anywhere that I can't go by driving an EV that charges from solar, or perhaps in a sailboat. But given that it's unlikely to happen, what are some practical measures a travel addict can take to offset their carbon footprint? I'd rather not settle for faux solutions that merely assuage guilt, but actual tangible measures with proven results.

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I've been fortunate to have vacationed in Japan.   

 

Holy fuck, they take recycling seriously. 

 

We went to a festival, with lots of food and drink.  There was a garbage/recycling tent.  Every receptical was attended, with the attendant telling you what could and couldn't go in each bin. 

 

The hotels?  The maids set up a dozen (or so) trash bags in the hallway, and every single thing removed from a room was placed in the proper bag. 

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1 hour ago, wild_turkey said:

 Single use plastic

I think most reasonable people who are not climate change deniers would agree that single use plastic is bad for the climate and the planet. Plastic obviously has its positives, but it may also be one of the worst things we've ever done to this planet. There's plastic in the clouds, plastic in the Mariana Trench, the ocean is full of plastic, our bodies have microplastics in them. It's disgusting. It's been discussed throughout this site and I started an older thread about plastic in the environment here:

I still think it's a bit complicated when it comes to purchasing decisions, and I think much of this is intentional on the part of industry. For instance, I know that #1 plastic can be recycled in my city, and I trust that when I put it in the blue bin, it gets recycled. If this is actually true, then would I be better off buying orange juice in a plastic bottle or a paper carton? The #1 plastic bottle seems recyclable according to most sources, whereas the paper carton has a plastic liner that seems to complicate it's recycleability.

Or suppose someone wants a Coke, and their choice is the bottle that claims to be 100% recycled already vs. the aluminum can. We know the can is recycleable, but what about the energy and resources required to create it in the first place? How significant is that, and is it possible that the aluminum can could actually be the worse for the environment?

These types of dilemmas arise with many purchasing decisions, so it's often difficult for the consumer to choose. I personally don't always know the answer, hence the reason I think a thread like this would be useful for discussion and education.

I think it's easy to do simple things like taking reusable bags to the store. If I forget my bags at Target, they'll put my groceries in 15 different plastic bags. Sometimes individual bags for individual items, like the eggs and bread couldn't coexist. I'm surprised that's still commonplace in 2023, but here we are.

I'm interested in ideas to reduce plastic in other areas. One of our friends uses a business called a "refillery" that will refill common household items like detergent, dish soap, shampoo, etc into reusable containers. It seems like a great idea, but there isn't one in our city. Maybe Whole Foods does something similar? Central Market does not.

Reminded me of this meme:

image.jpeg.65fbc4203b93072ba9ce64f9a5ce1fb4.jpeg

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Recycling food containers is something I wonder about. The water I use to rinse out the container, at what point am I doing more damage by excessive water use  than is gained by recycling a mayonnaise jar?

You hit on electric vehicles. It bugs me that people talk about electric vehicles as if they were charged by inexhaustible pixie dust. Power plants use resources and are messy. What's the balance?

Edited by Not that Bob
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1 hour ago, wild_turkey said:

Recycling

This could easily be its own thread, but we'll try it here. I think most cities do a terrible job at educating residents on recycling. See my comments above about plastic. I'm shocked at how few of my friends even attempt to recycle, and with those that do, it seems like there is significant confusion or even lack of effort to get it straight.

Also recycling capabilities and procedures vary by city, so the resident has to make some effort to know what can be done. My city (Fort Worth) has a website to help, but even that website gives vague instructions. I tried to clarify if #5 plastic (yogurt and other food containers) can be recycled and they referred me to the website, which doesn't say specifically which plastics do. So, should I buy that yogurt or not? More importantly, why is almost every yogurt in a #5 plastic container when it seems recycling of #1 and #2 plastic is more ubiquitous?

What about recycling other things like batteries, old electronics, running shoes that you no longer use, garden hoses, scrap metal, etc?

I run quite a bit so I go through shoes fairly quickly. They're still in okay condition for wearing around but beyond their mileage limits for actual running. So they get converted to yard shoes, except that I have way too many retired running yard shoes, so they get ?thrown away? That doesn't feel right. I'm not sure they're actually good enough for Goodwill, but I did find several services that will take them, including this one:

https://gotsneakers.com/

I guess the point is, I'm trying to become more conscious about how I actually dispose of things. If it doesn't easily fit in the blue bin, and doesn't easily go to Goodwill, there may be other good options for stuff besides just throwing it away.

Recycling could be it's own thread because in my opinion it is a big scam. I'll have to google the links to reference, but from what I recall the overwhelmingly majority of what gets picked up in the green recycle cans your municipality gives you, just gets thrown in with the trash at the end of the day because both a) they don't care and b) people taint the recycle batch with non-recycles. We (America) would literally pay countries to take barges of our "recycle" trash and they would just compost it in Malaysia or burn it all in Indonesia until those countries got wise and stopped taking our literal garbage. 

I feel like the next big trillion dollar company is the smart guys who spin out of WM and figure out a TrashTech business in partnership with Elon to fly our garbage into the sun or outer space where it can get burned up. Sounds like a Futurama plot now that I type it out.

Here is one link: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/12/climate/plastics-waste-export-ban.html

Edited by BeardIP
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if you live in a city that promotes recycling (scam or not) you definitely get into the habit. i honestly feel bad now, like 'i don't know what to do with this bottle/can/paper!' bad when i'm visiting my family in podunk east Texas and they're just piling up the beer and White Claw cans for the trash dump. it's weird how your psyche gets trained. 

if i still lived in Texas and had to live thru the summers i'd just have to give the middle finger to the 'Ercot urges conservation!' messages.

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4 minutes ago, Not that Bob said:

Recycling food containers is something I wonder about. The water I use to rinse out the container, at what point am I doing more damage by excessive water use  than is gained by recycling a mayonnaise jar?

You hit on electric vehicles. It bugs me that people talk about electric vehicles as if they were charged by inexhaustible pixie dust. Power plants use resources and are messy. What's the balance?

Which is to say nothing of the needs EV (and tech in general has) for precious metals (i.e. Lithium demand, Cobalt maybe?, Nickel) that are found in un or underdeveloped countries (e.g. African countries like Ghana, etc.) that are raped by western powers to get to them like China (and us). 

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Which is to say nothing of the needs EV (and tech in general has) for precious metals (i.e. Lithium demand, Cobalt maybe?, Nickel) that are found in un or underdeveloped countries (e.g. African countries like Ghana, etc.) that are raped by western powers to get to them like China (and us). 

Well that could be true, but to what extent do we know that to be true? I also think the concerns about battery production and mineral mining get a little bit overplayed by EV opponents, i.e. the O&G industry. However, there is little transparency on this point, so people are left to form their own opinions. If you have some good links, please share.

And FWIW, the Salton Sea in California apparently has enough lithium to produce millions of EVs. If that production becomes operational and gets scaled up, it could entirely eliminate our need to get lithium elsewhere.
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9 minutes ago, Not that Bob said:

Recycling food containers is something I wonder about. The water I use to rinse out the container, at what point am I doing more damage by excessive water use  than is gained by recycling a mayonnaise jar?

You hit on electric vehicles. It bugs me that people talk about electric vehicles as if they were charged by inexhaustible pixie dust. Power plants use resources and are messy. What's the balance?

EV vehicles are a Trojan Horse, so are wind turbines, those are my main problems with "sustainables". The problem is that those are the face of "sustainables". 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/28/world/wind-turbine-recycling-climate-intl/index.html

I had no problem with recycling bins when I lived in Austin. Most people, I suspect don't. I worked for a disposal company for about 14 months. The glass recycle bins were combined with the regular trash, after the fact, as Austin didn't have a glass recycling plant, at the time. Just a lot of feel good recycling for naught.  

CHIEF

 

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Recycling could be it's own thread because in my opinion it is a big scam. I'll have to google the links to reference, but from what I recall the overwhelmingly majority of what gets picked up in the green recycle cans your municipality gives you, just gets thrown in with the trash at the end of the day because both a) they don't care and b) people taint the recycle batch with non-recycles. We (America) would literally pay countries to take barges of our "recycle" trash and they would just compost it in Malaysia or burn it all in Indonesia until those countries got wise and stopped taking our literal garbage. 


The link to the Plastic in the Environment thread posted above covers a lot of that, and yes, some stuff gets shipped to Asia and dumped in the ocean, but recycling isn’t entirely a scam. Someone posted another link in the Climate thread (CR) that had some videos about recycling specifically in Austin. It goes into pretty good detail about how it works for Austin and what can actually be recycled.

There’s a lot of good recycling that does occur in most major cities, but as I mentioned, cities have done a terrible job at educating residents. The fact that you and many other people think it’s a scam is a problem, because then you become apathetic and don’t even try to recycle. And then you also have people who recycle a bunch of shit that can’t be recycled, and it messes up the system and reduces efficiency.
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I live in the Bay Area which i think of as being highly sensitive to this issue.  Yet there’s a ton of stuff with little triangle markings on it that isn’t accepted for recycling.  That annoys me. 
My town had a place you could drop of sheet plastic but they closed it.  San Jose used to take textiles in the recycle bin but they don’t where I live now.  
It’s not just the residents that aren’t trying very hard.  

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Lithium mining is an ecologic disaster and a time bomb.

https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/02/01/south-america-s-lithium-fields-reveal-the-dark-side-of-our-electric-future

Also, I have neighbors with electric vehicles that genuinely believe they are saving the environment but driving an electric car.  I typically like to bring their attention to the fact that at current we get most of our electricity from the coal fired electrical plant about ten miles away.  So they have burned coal to power them saving the environment.  

Don't get me wrong, I wish we had a magic solution that made environmental sense and economic sense.  The simple truth is right now, we don't, and anyone telling you otherwise is selling something, and you should be suspicious of their motives.  

I also don't recycle, not because I don't like the idea of it, but because I don't want my trash winding up in the ocean.  I'd prefer it be managed locally and under regulated environmental supervision.   Further, I'm not convinced that there is a net benefit of energy reduction created by recycling.  Personally, I'd like to see plastic usage more stringently regulated and reduced to necessity only.  Paper products make far more sense to me, whenever possible.  Additionally, we've proven that we are capable of sustainable forestry programs.  

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26 minutes ago, wild_turkey said:


Well that could be true, but to what extent do we know that to be true? I also think the concerns about battery production and mineral mining get a little bit overplayed by EV opponents, i.e. the O&G industry. However, there is little transparency on this point, so people are left to form their own opinions. If you have some good links, please share.

And FWIW, the Salton Sea in California apparently has enough lithium to produce millions of EVs. If that production becomes operational and gets scaled up, it could entirely eliminate our need to get lithium elsewhere.

DRC is the world's largest Cobalt producer and this is a good read entitled: Smartphones, computers and electric vehicles may be emblems of the modern world, but, says Siddharth Kara, their rechargeable batteries are frequently powered by cobalt mined by workers laboring in slave-like conditions in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893248/red-cobalt-congo-drc-mining-siddharth-kara

Kara says the mining industry has ravaged the landscape of the DRC. Millions of trees have been cut down, the air around mines is hazy with dust and grit, and the water has been contaminated with toxic effluents from the mining processing. What's more, he says, "Cobalt is toxic to touch and breathe — and there are hundreds of thousands of poor Congolese people touching and breathing it day in and day out. Young mothers with babies strapped to their backs, all breathing in this toxic cobalt dust."

Edited by BeardIP
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EV vehicles are a Trojan Horse, so are wind turbines, those are my main problems with "sustainables". The problem is that those are the face of "sustainables". 
[/url] https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/28/world/wind-turbine-recycling-climate-intl/index.html


I watched that first YouTube clip that’s critical of EVs. I don’t know if I take the guy seriously and I don’t know his credentials or political leanings, but I think his criticisms are similar to many EV opponents.

His first big criticism is that EVs aren’t charging with clean energy and are instead using predominantly fossil fuels. I share that concern, but I don’t think that’s a flaw in EV technology at all. That’s a problem with our energy sources, which is a huge separate topic. Simply put, I think we need EVs coupled with nuclear power, or greatly expanded clean energy in its various formats.

But the issue to me is that EV technology could be a tremendous step forward if the electricity sources will follow suit. Maybe it’s worth putting the cart in front of the horse here.

The same could not be said about ICE vehicles. They are by definition burning fossil fuels and will always be burning fossil fuels, and to commit to them out of fear of change is basically signing our own death sentence. We know exactly where that road will lead.

His second concern is about sourcing the lithium and other minerals to produce the batteries. Also a valid concern, but he presents no data, which makes this merely a talking point lacking evidence. And as I mentioned above, potentially new sources for these minerals (such as the Salton Sea) will become available to help that obstacle.
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Also, I have neighbors with electric vehicles that genuinely believe they are saving the environment but driving an electric car.  I typically like to bring their attention to the fact that at current we get most of our electricity from the coal fired electrical plant about ten miles away.  So they have burned coal to power them saving the environment.  


What if your neighbors had solar panels and charged their EVs from solar? Or what about people who choose to pay a higher rate for an energy provider that claims to use 100% renewable energy?

I’m honestly curious why your criticism is directed at the owner of the EV and not at the coal power plant. We obviously need to eliminate coal power plants.
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@wild_turkey What is your stance and understanding on greenwashing? Carbon credits, JP Morgan buying large acreages of forests and taking money to NOT cut trees down, Private Equity firms buying Forests to sell green credits to others, etc.

Here is an interesting read about Gabon wanting to pimp out it's rainforest for a price: https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023-gabon-rainforests-carbon-credits/

Edited by BeardIP
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Also, I have neighbors with electric vehicles that genuinely believe they are saving the environment but driving an electric car.  I typically like to bring their attention to the fact that at current we get most of our electricity from the coal fired electrical plant about ten miles away.  So they have burned coal to power them saving the environment.  


Also, what data do you or any of us have that validates the idea that an EV powered by coal is worse than an ICE? It’s easy to say that and criticize your neighbor for their choice, but do you really know that to be true?

If we think about the life cycle of a Tesla Model 3 vs. a Honda Accord, what is the total impact of each? The Honda accord is pretty straightforward because it’s always using the same basic gasoline. The impact of the Tesla could vary based on the owner’s electricity source.

Would an entirely solar powered Tesla be better than the Honda over its life? Would an entirely coal powered Tesla be worse? If the latter is true, then do we have even a rough idea of the break-even point?
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7 minutes ago, wild_turkey said:

 


What if your neighbors had solar panels and charged their EVs from solar? Or what about people who choose to pay a higher rate for an energy provider that claims to use 100% renewable energy?

I’m honestly curious why your criticism is directed at the owner of the EV and not at the coal power plant. We obviously need to eliminate coal power plants.

 

The reality of power generation is that we simply don't have enough of it, period.  Hydro is good, but ecologically damaging in its own right, and expensive (at least initially).  Nuclear is great, minus the huge initial cost (the new Votgle reactor only cost 13B and counting), and the part potentially glowing in the dark thing (our shit is pretty safe, and while we have talented engineers with great knowledge, failure of imagination is real).  We don't get much in wind here, not sustainable like in the Plains, but even there the actual output isn't great.  Solar panels are grossly inefficient, and rely largely on the same mining techniques as lithium, plus expensive.  The reason we have coal is simple, it's cheap.  So while I wouldn't mind personally paying say $100.00 more a month to ensure clean or cleaner energy usage, I gotta feeling with most people that shit don't fly.  

I blame the EV owner because most of them are blathering idiots that think nothing of the actual costs of things (environmental in this case).  Combine that with the fact that they just want to look "cool".  The better choice is keeping an older vehicle; you know the reduce portion of reduce, reuse, recycle.  I have no problem on calling someone out for attempting to conceal their vapidness with being "environmentally" engaged.  

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12 minutes ago, wild_turkey said:

 


Also, what data do you or any of us have that validates the idea that an EV powered by coal is worse than an ICE? It’s easy to say that and criticize your neighbor for their choice, but do you really know that to be true?

If we think about the life cycle of a Tesla Model 3 vs. a Honda Accord, what is the total impact of each? The Honda accord is pretty straightforward because it’s always using the same basic gasoline. The impact of the Tesla could vary based on the owner’s electricity source.

Would an entirely solar powered Tesla be better than the Honda over its life? Would an entirely coal powered Tesla be worse? If the latter is true, then do we have even a rough idea of the break-even point?

 

I don't need much in the way of data in knowing that keeping an older car is better than buying a new car, regardless of engine type for the environment.  1 thing is less than 2, and buying one simply for the sake of doing so isn't helping.  

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2 hours ago, wild_turkey said:

interested in ideas to reduce plastic in other areas. One of our friends uses a business called a "refillery" that will refill common household items like detergent, dish soap, shampoo, etc into reusable containers. It seems like a great idea, but there isn't one in our city. Maybe Whole Foods does something similar? Central Market does not.

We do something similar in-house. Our housekeeper stores large, bulk versions of all of our preferred liquids and refills them periodically. It’s not nothing, but how much waste doesn’t that really conserve in the grand scheme? It’s certainly minuscule compared to the mountains of food containers that get tossed out by the carefree people that live in my house rent free.

It drives me mad when I see a second bin get grabbed by the garbage man and wheeled to the truck. I compare that to the retired couple across the street who put out a half filled blue recycling bag and almost no food waste. They are both retired Indian doctors. I know they grow a bunch of their own food and probably eat mostly vegetables. I almost never see the Amazon or ups trucks stop at their house either. While our front door is barraged by the delivery trucks daily with packages.

Those packages are emptied of whatever junk we just couldn’t live without. Then the waste is carried out and broken down by me to see if I can make it all fit into the green bin.
It’s a trash centipede from the truck, to the front door, to the back alley and then to the big blue truck. I have got to get them better about their ordering habits. It’s going to just be plastic containers, cardboard boxes and turtles all the way down. 

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In spirit of the original post

We (my wife) is big into sustainable products for the house. We have permanent refillable dispensers for hand soap, dish soap, laundry detergent, dryer sheets. It cuts down on all the single use plastics in our house. We have recycled paper bags for carrying sandwiches instead of typical plastic bags. Stuff like that. 

Electric lawn equipment (mower, blower, trimmer). Yes I know its powered by gas plants, but I don’t have to drive to gas station to buy gasoline for them, which is nice. Plus they don’t smell and aren’t noisy as fuck. 

I want to buy an electric car, but our car is paid off, and don’t feel like we need another one right now. 
 

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I blame the EV owner because most of them are blathering idiots that think nothing of the actual costs of things (environmental in this case).  Combine that with the fact that they just want to look "cool".  The better choice is keeping an older vehicle; you know the reduce portion of reduce, reuse, recycle.  I have no problem on calling someone out for attempting to conceal their vapidness with being "environmentally" engaged.  


I certainly agree with your second point about keeping older vehicles longer. Ideally, everyone would do that.

The reality is that vehicles do eventually wear out and need replacing, or we have new drivers on the road getting a car for the first time. Regardless, vehicles are being produced and sold, so it’s worth asking which technology is truly better for the future of the planet.

Your first point however, is a gross stereotype that you have formed about the typical EV owner, which has nothing to do with the validity of the technology itself. There’s another one a few posts above, so in this thread so far, we have the following criticisms of EVs:
-Most EV owners are blathering idiots
-Most Tesla drivers commute an hour each way
Come on guys, you can do better than that. Both of those comments would also suggest that ICE drivers do not have long commutes and that ICE drivers are not blathering idiots, which is obviously absurd. Your perceived personality traits of a person using a technology should not even be in the discussion about the merits of the actual technology.
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7 hours ago, BamaATL said:

I blame the EV owner because most of them are blathering idiots that think nothing of the actual costs of things (environmental in this case).  Combine that with the fact that they just want to look "cool".  The better choice is keeping an older vehicle; you know the reduce portion of reduce, reuse, recycle.  I have no problem on calling someone out for attempting to conceal their vapidness with being "environmentally" engaged.  

Most of this paragraph is an opinion based on feels and anecdotal experience. 
 

I do agree that people should be keeping vehicles longer. My 4Runner is about to be 20 years old and still purrs. I don’t get how people get a new car every 2-3 years or sometimes fewer. Less?

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7 hours ago, Da Fino said:

. I compare that to the retired couple across the street who put out a half filled blue recycling bag and almost no food waste. They are both retired Indian doctors. I know they grow a bunch of their own food and probably eat mostly vegetables.

This should be another topic in this thread that is actually one of the most important. 
 

What we eat

 

American agriculture is one of the most environmentally harmful industries there is. We eat WAY too much meat and it uses WAY too much water. Not to mention fertilizers, animal waste runoff, overproduction of corn, etc. 

Seriously, this could be an entire thread on its own. 

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Good thread. I'm on the path to where I am thinking about this stuff more and more. Even a few years ago, it didn't register at all. Then I started to think about the plastic bag that I use for literally 10 minutes to go from store to home lasts 10 years. Seemed silly to me. Plastic trinkets and stuff from China (just went through Halloween with all the plastic spider rings, etc.) are made 8,000 miles away, shipped over here, used once, and then tossed. That's insane.

Then this past summer has me realllllly thinking about it all. 

But admittedly, I'm still at the point where I think about it a lot but don't change much behavior... because it's hard on an individual level. 

We have a small truck and SUV in the garage. Should we swap them out? We both drive about 8-10K miles per year so the idea of ditching a perfectly good car to get another that's more efficient seems wasteful and expensive. I'm about to drive all around the state for the holidays and wish like hell there was a train I could take.

Plastic use -- I'd love to cut down on it, but there are no serious options. Look in the grocery store. There's no detergent in a biodegradable package. Strawberries aren't packed in cardboard. 

We do cut down on Amazon purchases drastically, but there are still lots of things you can only really get there. If so, we try to group our orders all at once. Home energy we keep the house warm in the summer (80 during the day) and cool in the winter. 

Bottom line is that if the options are there, I'd jump at them even if they are a little more expensive. Problem is that for the most part we are locked in to what's widely available. 

 

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We have a small truck and SUV in the garage. Should we swap them out? We both drive about 8-10K miles per year so the idea of ditching a perfectly good car to get another that's more efficient seems wasteful and expensive.


Off the top of my head, I suspect you are right, that keeping your perfectly good cars would be the better environmental decision for right now. The math may work out differently if you drove 30k miles per year, or if you drove an F250 or Escalade that guzzles gas. I really don’t know how the average person can do that calculus to make informed decisions.

Thinking forward, there may come a point where you need to replace them, hand them down to a kid, etc. Then maybe, depending on the EV situation in 5-10 years, it’s time to switch?
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3 minutes ago, wild_turkey said:

Off the top of my head, I suspect you are right, that keeping your perfectly good cars would be the better environmental decision for right now. The math may work out differently if you drove 30k miles per year, or if you drove an F250 or Escalade that guzzles gas. I really don’t know how the average person can do that calculus to make informed decisions.

Thinking forward, there may come a point where you need to replace them, hand them down to a kid, etc. Then maybe, depending on the EV situation in 5-10 years, it’s time to switch?

 

I've mentioned in another thread that if I had a three-car garage, then I'd have a Hyundai hybrid that gets something like 52 mpg. I don't need a truck 98% of the time, but damn if it isn't great to have that 2%.

I do think we could realistically reduce down to one car, but it would take some adjustment.

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Well that could be true, but to what extent do we know that to be true? I also think the concerns about battery production and mineral mining get a little bit overplayed by EV opponents, i.e. the O&G industry. However, there is little transparency on this point, so people are left to form their own opinions. If you have some good links, please share.

And FWIW, the Salton Sea in California apparently has enough lithium to produce millions of EVs. If that production becomes operational and gets scaled up, it could entirely eliminate our need to get lithium elsewhere.



This reads to me like an o/g proponent trying to tell us drilling in Anwar isn't as bad as the seal huggers make it seem.

It's still early, and we need more data, but most of what I've read/watched doesn't look good environmentally.

That's not even touching the fact that if if we may be trading one headache ( middle east) for a heart attack in China. Lithium is a core component but not the only one, and the last reporting I read is china owns upwards of 60% of rare earth mines.

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One more thought -- I think on an individual basis, the only thing we can really do at this point is "reduce" if we want to be more sustainable. The alternative choices just simply aren't there on a convenient or cost-effective basis. 

 

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Are we talking about a household or society?  If we are talking about being truly sustainable as a household, then you are talking about being less dependent on "the grid", not more.  

  • Gardening.  Then learning canning to save and preserve excess 
  • Water collection for all non-potable uses such as irrigation and watering.  Next step would be your own well if applicable
  • Older ICE vehicles that allow for some measure of personal upkeep such as brakes, oil changes, and other basic maintenance
  • Chickens - obviously neighborhood dependent, but they clean up pests around the home, devour any and all leftovers, and provide a stead stream of eggs
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49 minutes ago, Smax said:

That's not even touching the fact that if if we may be trading one headache ( middle east) for a heart attack in China. Lithium is a core component but not the only one, and the last reporting I read is china owns upwards of 60% of rare earth mines.

This is the play with Taiwan.  They own the majority of the rare earth metals needed to make all our electronics, now they want a monopoly on all the chip/wafer production that provides up to 90% of all the electronics we use every day.  

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Rinsing out a plastic peanut butter jar takes 8 days and 200 gallons of water. 

Yep, those get thrown away in my house.

If I can easily rinse and recycle it, I do so. If I can’t easily rinse it, straight to the trash.

With things like peanut butter, well with most things with a long shelf life actually, I try to buy the largest possible size. At least that way, the surface area (packaging) to volume (consumable product) is lower.
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2 hours ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

 

Plastic use -- I'd love to cut down on it, but there are no serious options. Look in the grocery store. There's no detergent in a biodegradable package. Strawberries aren't packed in cardboard. 

We do cut down on Amazon purchases drastically, but there are still lots of things you can only really get there. If so, we try to group our orders all at once. Home energy we keep the house warm in the summer (80 during the day) and cool in the winter. 

Bottom line is that if the options are there, I'd jump at them even if they are a little more expensive. Problem is that for the most part we are locked in to what's widely available. 

 

Not trying to be a dick but you’re not looking hard enough. There are plenty of options. Our detergent tablets come in a paper bag and we keep them in a metal tin. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Not trying to be a dick but you’re not looking hard enough. There are plenty of options. Our detergent tablets come in a paper bag and we keep them in a metal tin. 

 

Ok, where did you get them?

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1 hour ago, BabaYaga said:

Are we talking about a household or society?  If we are talking about being truly sustainable as a household, then you are talking about being less dependent on "the grid", not more.  

  • Gardening.  Then learning canning to save and preserve excess 
  • Water collection for all non-potable uses such as irrigation and watering.  Next step would be your own well if applicable
  • Older ICE vehicles that allow for some measure of personal upkeep such as brakes, oil changes, and other basic maintenance
  • Chickens - obviously neighborhood dependent, but they clean up pests around the home, devour any and all leftovers, and provide a stead stream of eggs

Gardening and chickens.... Yep, would love to see more of that. I live in a town with a lot of green space, but few community gardens. A few years ago they closed the Victory Garden I was a member at. Combined the 20 people on small plots delivered quite a bit of fresh and seasonal produce to the local food bank. 

When I was living on a bit of land (7 acres) we had 3 gardens on low use drip systems on either rain where possible. The rest was off a well. we had about 30 chickens and some ducks. Every week loaded up eggs and took them to that towns food bank. 

We could do a lot more. And sorry, you don't need strawberries at all times. Transportation of luxury foods has environmental impacts on all, and some society impacts where it is grown. Avocados and Quinoa come to mind. 

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So how many years will it be before electric machinery can do the heavy lifting?  Pulling a plow?  Excavation for new roads, etc.?  Commercial shipping/fishing?  This is a big can of worms.  How much work can be done in a day?  Charge times?  A contractor may need twice as many excavators to get the same amount of work completed if the duty cycle of the battery isn't long enough.  Their cost goes up, our cost goes up.  I guess, the world is trying to clean up its act and there are no "set in stone" answers.  All we can do is try some ideas and see what sticks.   

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EVs powered exclusively by hydrocarbon-sourced electricity is still cleaner than combustion vehicles. (Emission / distance traveled). 

Net emission is *inclusive* of the differences in manufacturing.  I.e. it is a total lifecycle / full chain calculation. 

Batteries in EVs are highly recycleable and can serve a life beyond powering a car. (just see how much salvaged batteries from old cars sell for…)

Battery chemistries are varied, and production cars are using battery mostly or fully free of controversial minerals like cobalt. 

Mining and extracting anything is not clean. Lithium extraction is not green…but compared to extracting crude oil? which is perpetually required to combust a motors?

Yall arent the first, second, or 1,000th person to have thought about these issues.  Plenty of literature in academic domain, or how about referenced here, by DoE, IEA, etc…

https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.html
 

https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/comparative-life-cycle-greenhouse-gas-emissions-of-a-mid-size-bev-and-ice-vehicle
 


 

 

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23 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

Germany charges manufacturers a tax on the amount of single use plastic packaging they produce. That goes a long ways towards minimizing unnecessary packaging. It makes too much sense to do that in the US.

They charge cost of packaging direct to consumer (as added cost at point of sale), which is refundable through recycling. Easy for US to do this. Its also done at public events where you pay for plastic beer cups and return them at the end. 

Same for charging for cost of grocery bags. And requiring a coin to unlock a grocery cart.

Ridiculously easy solutions to encourage specific behaviors.

**
People need to stop generalizing garbage and recycling handling based on a single expose’. How its handled is a local/municipal issue. Ive been to the facilities near my residences and seen what they do with them. Its different everywhere. Mine takes in organic waste, composts it, and gives back bags of soils for free. Its quite nice.

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