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Dallas officer kills man after mistaking apartment for her own, police say


'stache

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2 hours ago, 'stache said:

There is no way she had a “reasonable” belief it was her apartment. She may have in fact thought that (still skeptical) but that belief is not reasonable. As I recall reasonableness is tested by way of the ordinary person. An ordinary person does not mistake another persons apartment for their own. And if her story is right that she was new to the building and the floors look similar a reasonable person would pay extra attention and in any event wouldn’t be so sure of themselves to blast another person with a pistol. Nothing about any of that is reasonable.

Agree. If you walk through the front door and see a stranger, it would be reasonable to first make sure you haven't making a mistake before opening fire.

Opening fire before making sure you haven't made a mistake is reckless and stupid. Reckless and stupid people shouldn't be carrying guns, and they shouldn't be cops.

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13 hours ago, 4th and 5 said:

I’ve commented on this way back when but It takes 10 of 12 grand jurors to find probable cause.

She will be indicted, of that I am sure, for what, I am not. If she Is not I believe the new DA will present the case to another grand jury next year  

But it should be murder as she intentionally caused the death of another. He conscious objective or desire in pointing a firearm at him and pulling the trigger twice is a textbook murder case.

She has the defenses of self defense and mistake of fact. Her belief does not have to be correct, it just has to be reasonable, even if it is wrong. You have the right to defend yourself from apparent danger as if it were real.

The state, not the defense, has the burden of DISPROVING, BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT, the applicability of both of the defenses.

I'm looking forward to watching this trial. I would love to try this case.

I am afraid this is going to be what may get her off. If the grand jury believes that she was defending herself against what she believed was a threat to her life, then she was justified in her actions. 

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2 hours ago, Kyle said:

Anyone no drunk on identity politics emotional hysteria ...

How does the fact she was off duty impact potential liability of the city? As a parallel, is it the fact she is a cop or a government employee change the situation as opposed to a private citizen? If she was a waitress at Hooters could the family sue the restaurant chain?

Not a good analogy with the Hooters waitress. For one thing, the cop most likely shot the victim with her service pistol provided by the police department, and she was in uniform. Hooters doesn't allow their waitresses to leave the property in their uniform 

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1 hour ago, immortal13 said:

Not a good analogy with the Hooters waitress. For one thing, the cop most likely shot the victim with her service pistol provided by the police department, and she was in uniform. Hooters doesn't allow their waitresses to leave the property in their uniform 

I had heard that point in another discussion, which make sense. I'm not convinced the city should be liable, but that's a reasonable connection.

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3 hours ago, bigup2dahorns said:

I believe the question is if she acted in a police capacity and is the city liable. I’m not a lawyer and not familiar with case law that would make it clear in either way. Sounds like it will be argued in court, unless someone here can set us straight.

Exactly. I agree with the sentiment above that cops should be held to much higher standards, but that was an answer to a different question. While I get the outrage machine has to be fueled and funded, this should be considered different IMHO than a "police shooting." This is more akin to the cop in Addison that shot those kids for trying to break in his car (different scenario, but he was not on duty). However, the same "shoot first, ask later" mentality that too many cops have obviously was at play.

Edited by Kyle
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8 minutes ago, Kyle said:

Exactly. I agree with the sentiment above that cops should be held to much higher standards, but that was an answer to a different question. While I get the outrage machine has to be fueled and funded, this should be considered different IMHO than a "police shooting." This is more akin to the cop in Addison that shot those kids for trying to break in his car (different scenario, but he was not on duty). However, the same "shoot first, ask later" mentality that too many cops have obviously was at play.

That and it also raises the legitimate question of whether a female is suitable for that line of work, (see Tulsa cop shooting example). Did she panic out of fear and just start shooting, ignoring her police protocol and training? 

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DMN is saying she was indicted on a murder charge. Not really clear if murder charge means indicted on murder or just manslaughter. 
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/courts/2018/11/30/grand-jury-gets-back-work-deciding-whether-indict-amber-guyger-killing-botham-jean


Should be cleared up at the press conference this afternoon
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1 minute ago, immortal13 said:

I would like to know what the verbal exchange was after that door was open. What were her commands and what was his response? Did he charge towards her? I'm not blaming the victim, just interested in the facts. Since hers will be the only account, I guess we will probably never know the real truth

I'm not sure of the exact commands, but he didn't respond or charge at her.  The body placement and limited evidence matched her account.  She never claimed he charged at her.  There was a lot of misinformation early on about arguments and noise complaints, so I don't know if those were all debunked or what, but I don't think any official neighbor testimony has conflicted with her account.

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13 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

I would like to know what the verbal exchange was after that door was open. What were her commands and what was his response? Did he charge towards her? I'm not blaming the victim, just interested in the facts. Since hers will be the only account, I guess we will probably never know the real truth

You're among n < 10.

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3 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

Agree. If you walk through the front door and see a stranger, it would be reasonable to first make sure you haven't making a mistake before opening fire.

Opening fire before making sure you haven't made a mistake is reckless and stupid. Reckless and stupid people shouldn't be carrying guns, and they shouldn't be cops.

Reasonable person, cop or not, doesn't open fire unless they honestly believe they are in their own home which it appears is the case here. I'm just saying that if I found myself in (what I THOUGHT was) my own home and for whatever reason thought it was necessary to shoot to kill, I'm not walking back out to the street to check the address. I'm pulling my gun BECAUSE of what I believe the facts to be.

Fact remains is it would seem that she had options other than shooting to kill. Murder is the correct charge.

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6 minutes ago, El Diablo said:

Reasonable person, cop or not, doesn't open fire unless they honestly believe they are in their own home which it appears is the case here. I'm just saying that if I found myself in (what I THOUGHT was) my own home and for whatever reason thought it was necessary to shoot to kill, I'm not walking back out to the street to check the address. I'm pulling my gun BECAUSE of what I believe the facts to be.

Fact remains is it would seem that she had options other than shooting to kill. Murder is the correct charge.

I'm not sure your logic is correct here. The only reason it could be considered murder is because her action was deliberate, not because she had other options. If a jury is convinced that she really believed she was in her own home and she perceived the threat as real, she could be acquitted. 

Edited by immortal13
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Not a good analogy with the Hooters waitress. For one thing, the cop most likely shot the victim with her service pistol provided by the police department, and she was in uniform. Hooters doesn't allow their waitresses to leave the property in their uniform 

Also, part of her defense was his failure to follow her instructions. I’m pretty sure the only instruction I’m legally required to follow from a Hooter’s waitress is drop your pants and let me blow you.
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1 minute ago, bigup2dahorns said:

DA says the indictment is for murder

In order to get her to plead to manslaughter. Maybe I'm being skeptical but that's going to be a hard charge to convict. She's never wavered from her story. They'll be enough people on her jury thinking "this isn't murder". 

As asked earlier--in Texas--can a jury come back with a lesser charge or is that on the DA?

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1 minute ago, Cheeseweasel said:

300 witnesses? Gotta be more to this case than what the Cop is saying.

Lot of apartments in that building.  Not a single other tenant ever went to the wrong door and shot someone.  

I'm joking...but I'm kinda serious.  Those are potential witnesses as to whether her actions and beliefs were reasonable.

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Just now, Brisketexan said:

Lot of apartments in that building.  Not a single other tenant ever went to the wrong door and shot someone.  

I'm joking...but I'm kinda serious.  Those are potential witnesses as to whether her actions and beliefs were reasonable.

True. Plus everyone she's ever served with/trained with probably got interviewed.

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Just now, immortal13 said:

I bet she gets acquitted. All she has to do is convince a few jurors that she truly believed she was in her own apartment and in danger. She is white and a cop.....shouldn't be too hard to accomplish

Yes.  And layer on the fact that "as a result of my years of training, and expert ability to spot a threat, and his furtive movements and refusal to follow my lawful commands, this giant, drug-crazed man was reasonably seen as a threat who had to be neutralized, for my safety and that of those whom I protect and serve.  Back the blue."  She walks.

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13 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

As asked earlier--in Texas--can a jury come back with a lesser charge or is that on the DA?

A little research after I posed that question indicates that the jury could, in fact, return a guilty on manslaughter. I'm an expert in criminal legal proceedings now, thanks internet!

Just now, bigup2dahorns said:

The grand jury returned the indictment on murder only. No action on the manslaughter.

I believe that backs up what I found. No need to indict on manslaughter if she'll be tried for murder.

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Is it not a lesser included offense?
As you can tell, that ain't my area of practice.


Well I didn’t even go to law school so there’s that too. I’m just trying to relay what was asked and answered at this press conference. Reporter wanted to know what happened to the manslaughter charge from earlier (Texas Rangers) and the DA replied that it was no action on that.
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Seems appropriate.  John Creuzot will be the DA when this goes to trial and I trust him to do the right thing (/spike lee).  He's a good man, regardless of political affiliation, and has a track record of doing the right thing without regard for political consequences (he "invented" drug courts and other diversion programs in Dallas County many years ago as a judge).

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