Trump vs Beto

[Celery Man 20832]

Just now, Bat Guano said:

Can't disagree; and the world has changed, so maybe experience isn't a prerequisite anymore. And his message this election was very much a national one, with a few Texas specifics - a few tweaks and he could take it on the road.

I supported Beto a ton, and obviously while last night wasn't surprising (actually exceeded my expectations that he may lose by 10) it's a tough pill to swallow.  But I don't think Beto is ready for president in 2020 - regardless of where we are now, he's too green in a lot of different ways.  As someone who likes Beto and sees him as someone who could eventually help heal the country, VP would be a pretty good scenario for him to grow into what it is possible for him to be without getting too deep too fast (or just losing and disappearing as a two time loser).

[Bottlecap 1519]

Beto didn't win his conference championship, but i think he should play for the national championship. Fuck it, he's 'bama

[JBJ 3646]

24 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Which completely negates your point.

I think you missed the point.  He'll get slaughtered Super Tuesday by a more progressive candidate.  The primaries exist to reinforce the base and keep his type out.

His hope would be a large field and divided progressives with him the only "New Dem" type candidate.

Edited November 7, 2018 by JBJ

[Huckleberry 32660]

1 minute ago, JBJ said:

I think you missed the point.  He'll get slaughtered Super Tuesday by a more progressive candidate.  The primaries exist to reinforce the base and keep his type out.

2016 - The Democrats rig their primaries! The progressive candidate Sanders should have won, they cheated him out of it to protect their more centrist candidate!
2018 - The more centrist candidate will never win the primaries. Those exist to reinforce the base and select the less centrist candidate.

[DaysOff 7785]

VP is a shit job and nobody votes for a ticket because of the second name.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23355]

Since when is Beto a centrist? 

[Brandywine 1311]

All I can say is, If Trump is really serious about running in 2020, it is going to be the nastiest and ugliest race in history. He lied so much during the midterms and the name calling was way over the top. I can't believe we have a US President and our country that have fallen so low and allowed him to get away with it. Joe Scarborough says he doesn't believe Trump will run in 2020. That would be a gift from God.

[Huckleberry 32660]

3 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Since when is Beto a centrist? 

Supporters of the opposing party pick whichever description hurts the candidate in their opinion. Not surprising, but certainly not accurate or informative either.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23355]

29 minutes ago, Kyle said:

O'Rourke is everything ostensibly the Left hates

How do you figure?  

[Pancho 44183]

No, it won't be him, even though he has an Obama like following (which is good). 

I don't get the sense that he wants to. 

[Celery Man 20832]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

How do you figure?  

snowflake is referring to the liberal oppression of white males

[MissingInAction 24746]

Mack  Brown/Kevin Sumlin arrive in the swag copter at the Democratic national convention and sweep the nomination.

Edited November 7, 2018 by MissingInAction

[Celery Man 20832]

Just now, MissingInAction said:

Mack  Brown/Kevin Sumlin

cabinet full of butter and hard liquor

[Hugo Stiglitz 23355]

Just now, Pancho Negro said:

I don't get the sense that he wants to. 

Not at the moment but you can’t watch what Beto has been doing for the last year and conclude he didn’t love what he was doing. 

That kind of campaigning becomes addictive and isn’t something easy to stop.  Despite the lose, I think it’s clear he was making a difference and he knows it.

He’ll take a much needed rest and reassess in a month or two but my biggest takeaway from Beto is he is a fighter and not giving up anytime soon.

[Fudge Nuggets 19111]

Since when did experience make a shit of difference?  Are y’all not aware of who is President today?

[Celery Man 20832]

Since when did experience make a shit of difference?  Are y’all not aware of who is President today?

Still hopeful that now is an aberration

[JBJ 3646]

25 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

2016 - The Democrats rig their primaries! The progressive candidate Sanders should have won, they cheated him out of it to protect their more centrist candidate!
2018 - The more centrist candidate will never win the primaries. Those exist to reinforce the base and select the less centrist candidate.

Gotta kill those strawmen.

Answer this: who wins the B1G area primaries between Beto and Sanders?  How much worse does that get with a normal progressive and not a socialist?

Edited November 7, 2018 by JBJ

[Huckleberry 32660]

Gotta kill those strawmen.
Answer this: who wins the B1G area primaries between Beto and Sanders?  How much worse does that get with a normal progressive and not a socialist?

That's not a strawman, those are actual arguments that have been made. Do you know what a strawman is?

And O'Rourke wins them by even more than Clinton did.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19025]

I think he needs more experience.  There is a Senate seat up for grabs in 2020.  What about a run at Gov?

[Pancho 44183]

24 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Not at the moment but you can’t watch what Beto has been doing for the last year and conclude he didn’t love what he was doing. 

That kind of campaigning becomes addictive and isn’t something easy to stop.  Despite the lose, I think it’s clear he was making a difference and he knows it.

He’ll take a much needed rest and reassess in a month or two but my biggest takeaway from Beto is he is a fighter and not giving up anytime soon.

He has a shit ton of energy to do a national campaign, that’s for sure 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23355]

1 minute ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

I think he needs more experience.  There is a Senate seat up for grabs in 2020.  What about a run at Gov?

If I’m Beto, I’m not fucking with a Texas statewide election again.  Of course he needs more experience but that’s no longer of value in American politics nationally.  See Barack Obama and Trump.  

I’d feel a lot more comfortable with a wise states-person as POTUS but it’s no longer in the cards and I just came to this realization now.  Sadly, we are a reality TV governed country and Beto is ready for prime time right now.  

[ERhine 1894]

2016 - The Democrats rig their primaries! The progressive candidate Sanders should have won, they cheated him out of it to protect their more centrist candidate!
2018 - The more centrist candidate will never win the primaries. Those exist to reinforce the base and select the less centrist candidate.

November 6, 2018: Beto is a socialist.
November 7, 2018: Beto is a centrist who primary voters won’t support.

[WhatTheBuck 28696]

2 hours ago, Lagunamadre said:

Whose going to beat him?

Who's running against him? One of them will. 

[F250 28623]

I'd vote for Beto for President but I am pretty sure the Demogorgon will eat his face off in the general election.

It's going to take a young Bill Clinton to take out Trump.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23355]

Just now, F250 said:

I'd vote for Beto for President but I am pretty sure the Demogorgon will eat his face off in the general election.

It's going to take a young Bill Clinton to take out Trump.

So what you’re really saying is we need a Ross Perot

[F250 28623]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

So what you’re really saying is we need a Ross Perot

Well, in this situation Ross Perot is the living embodiment of the 7 deadly sins and is the incumbent president.

[RayDog 682]

6 minutes ago, F250 said:

I'd vote for Beto for President but I am pretty sure the Demogorgon will eat his face off in the general election.

It's going to take a young Bill Clinton to take out Trump.

That's the point. Beto is the closest the Democrats have to a young Bill Clinton.

Edited November 7, 2018 by RayDog

[NowThis 931]

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

He has "IT" which can't be quantified.  Call it an inspiring personality or youthful charisma. Ambitions politicians would kill for "IT".

Obama had "IT"

Bill Clinton had "IT"

Hillary DID NOT HAVE "IT"

and Trump? 

Beto really needs to move to the center, be more like a Bill Clinton w/o the pervy scandals and he'll do much better. A conservative Democrat (not necessarily Bill C.) would be ideal, or actually a liberal Republican would be good for the nation.  Beto needs to get tougher on immigration and needs to fine tune his healthcare message by saying he's going to cut defense. Wny massacre millions of people across the wordl, destroy their already pathetic nations, and at the same time loved ones die here due to billions going to war machines. The military is bad for people everywhere, it's excessive by 2x or 3x. Slash the mofo. 

[washparkhorn 9931]

I am going to attempt a substantive response, but understand the political mood abandoned substance years ago. Please be kind. I like Beto. I liked his campaign and the populist fervor he generated for what was a gargantuan task in Texas. He came close. Six years from now, I think we will look back at 2018 as a point in time when both parties were redefining themselves and Beto was a key indicator of the major shift we are experiencing (but just a little too early). 

It is too early for Beto for President in 2020 in my opinion. It's not an age thing. After Obama's keynote convention speech in 2004, I thought he was ready for a Presidential run. His speech was that good and touched a lot of early populists tired of racial/identity politics who turned out in droves for him in 2008.

Beto and the realignment of the political parties has not matured yet. Our current "Us v. Them" Divide is more of a media/corporate status quo v. people who see the system as broken and in need of change. By the time of Obama's speech, the nation was ready for a transformational leader on the long-festering race divide. The current populist battles are not well defined and fraught with peril. We are touching third-rail issues all of the time these days, which is an improvement, but there has been so much silence over the years that solutions are not well-defined yet. Beto can certainly work to better define the issues and solutions, but the emotions are too raw for any real policy positions in a 2020 Presidential campaign. 

Beto has a couple of other problems other than not being able to beat Ted Cruz - one of the most disliked national figures in the U.S. 

First - and this is as petty as it gets -the name issue is confusing for a nation that doesn't understand Texas and its long history of Latino/Caucasian integration as Texas grew up from infancy. We have our racists, reactionaries, revolutionaries, and regressives on all sides of the political spectrum - like every other state. But we also have a long history with our southern neighbors. After studying Texas History every year from first grade on, most of us learned the fact that Texas was a melting pot of Europeans looking for land and Latinos who knew the land. When I was in school, I saw little if any animus between Latinos and Caucasians (of non-Hispanic decent). My first girlfriend was Michelle Rodriguez. My best friends included a Beto and a Jorge. The major dividing lines were the jocks bullying the freaks (kids who smoked MJ) and the shop-kids bullying the developmentally disabled (a very sad chapter in this nation). 

Not all was wine and roses. We were extremely segregated from African Americans (think Orange County California and their housing covenants that kept black families out). We had one African American kid in my high school. To no one's surprise, he was a fast wide receiver and his dad just happened to secure a job with a television manufacturer in DFW, which allowed the family to move into our high school boundary and gave us a deep threat. We ended up losing to Odessa Permian in an area championship game. QB and a defensive lineman ended up at SMU (pre-death penalty). Lineman ended up playing for the Packers.

I am not sure if the rest of the country understands how a white kid in Texas would go by the name Beto. Frankly, it's a non-issue from my experience of living in Texas. Hell, I had aunts named Rosalee and Carmelita. It just wasn't a big deal back then for Texans bred and born in the State. There was anti-immigrant bias over similar job/food security issues that we have today. Things may have changed since I left Texas in 1986 for San Francisco, Chicago and then Denver, but back then there wasn't a big divide between Latinos and Caucasians. Where I grew up, it was the refugees from the Detroit auto industry (regardless of skin color) who had the most difficult time assimilating into the Texas way of doing things as the auto-assembly moved in droves to places like Arlington. 

Beto needs to get in front of that BS first name issue. (He may have already in Texas, but that hasn't trickled out to where I live in Colorado). It's too easy for Democratic and Republican candidates to accuse him of appropriating a Latino forename for political advantage (see the Elizabeth Warren Native American brouhaha). One way to explain it is for him to praise Texans for their Latino/Caucasian melting pot. It's a superficial issue, but then all politics are superficial. And Texas should be proud of its heritage of championing the diverse history of this State.

Second, and more important, Beto needs a way to connect to working and middle class voters. Joe Biden has that problem solved, but his political skeletons especially in the era of me-too will sink him very early.

We live in a divided country where we have one party who remains dominated by elites, national security marketers, and status quo neoliberals - who don't give a damn about poor, working class and middle class citizens (i.e., Trump's base). It's not natural for a billionaire Republican to bet the best hope for the overwhelming majority of ordinary Americans who most elites and wannabe elites have written off as worthless. Beto needs to find a way to work with these Americans and give them real hope of a future where their kids have a chance at the American Dream (whatever that is today). If Bernie can capture the hopes of Americans who work hard for a chance to get ahead, Beto can do the same. If Beto can capture that group, Trump and Demo Elites will rue the day Beto woke up and went after that forgotten majority of Americans. 

Trump and those to react to him just suck too much oxygen out of the room to move forward the discourse on the forgotten America. John Edwards was ahead of his time when he questioned the wisdom of having two Americas. We are stuck on stupid right now. People are dividing into camps and there isn't much dialogue between the camps. For a guy like Beto to come along as a healer, the divide has to narrow and the hateful rhetoric from both camps has to be shunned as non-productive for Americans as a whole. The problem is, of course, is that politicians love superficial divisions and will stoke anger to keep those divisions in place. Anyone who has the ability to reform the status quo will be targeted and taken down with any number of political weapons - including criminal charges.

I think what most people fail to see is that Trump was the natural evolution of a nation that began criminalizing politics with LBJ and his "illegal war" - which then moved on to Nixon's Watergate, Reagan's Iran-Contra, and Clinton's sexual adventures. This trajectory is not sustainable, but it wins elections. We need a Ford-type politician willing to end our national nightmare and get the country moving forward - together - again. There isn't much hope in the current crop of potential nominees, so perhaps that is Beto's greatest opportunity to get the nomination and beat Trump.

Congrats to Beto and his supporters. Great job rallying passion for a candidate. I have not seen that enthusiasm since Bernie v. Hillary in 2016. Same result, but the more people who understand they have power to affect outcomes, the better we will be as a nation.

 

[Foosters 17688]

1 minute ago, NowThis said:

and Trump? 

Beto really needs to move to the center, be more like a Bill Clinton w/o the pervy scandals and he'll do much better. A conservative Democrat (not necessarily Bill C.) would be ideal, or actually a liberal Republican would be good for the nation.  Beto needs to get tougher on immigration and needs to fine tune his healthcare message by saying he's going to cut defense. Wny massacre millions of people across the wordl, destroy their already pathetic nations, and at the same time loved ones die here due to billions going to war machines. The military is bad for people everywhere, it's excessive by 2x or 3x. Slash the mofo. 

Why would it matter what his positions are? We just saw the GOP run entire campaigns lying about what Dem positions are.  GOP ran ads against Dems claiming they were advocating open borders, taking away social security, wanting to model our country on Venezuela, and removing protections for pre-existing conditions. No matter what the Dem positions are, that same message will be broadcast. About 40% of the nation will believe it.

[DaysOff 7785]

He should go on Big Brother, Survivor or Dancing With The Stars.  That'll do more for him than running for office again.  Idiocracy.

Lolz

[RayDog 682]

Beto's postions have 60% public approval. How are they not centrist?

Democrats commonly labeled as centrist are now more accurately right wing Democrats.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23355]

1 minute ago, RayDog said:

That's the point. Beto is the closest the Democrats have to a young Bill Clinton.

Yeah, other than the woman problems, things that separate Beto from young Bill:

Beto doesn’t waffle or flip flop on the issues like Bill did.

 

It sounds people want Beto to be more malleable and less genuine/authentic.  More like a slimey politician.  

People fucking hate that, see also Hillary and conversely why Bernie was so popular.

[Huckleberry 32660]

4 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

words

The Beto thing is easily extinguished with the simple picture of him as a three-year-old. Nobody who isn't already dead set on voting for the Republican will think a three-year-old was plotting to gain political favor.

The actual real issue for him is that he's not actually charismatic. He's nowhere near Bill Clinton in that department, not even close.

[BLKNSTY 289]

Bloomberg/Beto
Biden/Beto
.
.
.
.
Beto/Gillum
Bernie/Beto
Warren/Beto

I think Bloomberg/Beto or Biden/Beto would have the best chance. Fuck Florida, don’t nominate anyone from CA to the ticket, and get you the Mid-West.

Bloomberg/Beto would be the best two-some any rational, business-minded, fiscally responsible, socially liberal person.

[Fozzz 152]

Just now, RayDog said:

Beto's postions have 60% public approval. How are they not centrist?

Democrats commonly labeled as centrist are now more accurately right wing Democrats.

You act like we live in a real, functioning democracy where popular policies are implemented faithfully by our elected leaders. 

[DaysOff 7785]

Barack Hussein

[RayDog 682]

Just now, Fozzz said:

You act like we live in a real, functioning democracy where popular policies are implemented faithfully by our elected leaders. 

I am a dreamer. What can I say.

[NowThis 931]

6 minutes ago, RayDog said:

Beto's postions have 60% public approval. How are they not centrist?

Democrats commonly labeled as centrist are now more accurately right wing Democrats.

well the vote was 48% so something missed the target, despite massive turnout. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23355]

Call me a classist but the last thing we need is another NY billionaire as president.

I’ll hear Bloomberg and Steyer out but they’ve already got a strike against them, at least with me.

Edited November 7, 2018 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Fozzz 152]

Barack Hussein

Obungler

Odumbo

Barfsack Ocrumbo!

I miss those days.

[Huckleberry 32660]

Just now, NowThis said:

well the vote was 48% so something missed the target, despite massive turnout. 

[Tom 2959]

3 hours ago, Spankytoes said:

The guy that couldn't beat Ted Cruz, one of the most unlikely guys in politics, is going to challenge Trump, one of the most unlikable Presidents ever? Why not start a Wendy Davis v. Trump thread while you're at it? 

Dumb take. 

Beto came within 2 points of beating a Republican senator in Texas.  Name any other Democrat that comes within 2 points of a Republican senator.

[NowThis 931]

2 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Barack Hussein

Obungler

Odumbo

Barfsack Ocrumbo!

I miss those days.

Obama bin Biden was the best. 

[Incredulity 11441]

5 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Barack Hussein

Obungler

Odumbo

Barfsack Ocrumbo!

I miss those days.

Drumpf, Dotard and Lard Ass just don't do it for you?

[RayDog 682]

5 minutes ago, NowThis said:

well the vote was 48% so something missed the target, despite massive turnout. 

I meant 60% in national polling. In that respect Cruz is right that he is a better candidate outside of Texas.

[Fozzz 152]

Dotard is okay.  Drumpf is terrible.  I have heard nothing that even remotely approaches the majesty of Barfsack Ocrumbo.  

[clapclapclap 9000]

I'll offer a rare serious post, as someone who is primarily Republican but would prefer Congress and the  presidency at times rotate between the GOP and responsible Democrats.  Am actually glad the Dems gained the House (though more happy that the GOP extended their Senate hold) and hope (but don't expect)  that they may expose enough of Trump that he declines to run in 2020 (yeah, unlikely.)  If Trump runs, and especially if he is able in the next 2 years to flip another Supreme Court seat, I'd be open to voting for a competent, moderate Dem (or perhaps even a pragmatic liberal.) 

Just continually shake my head at all the races the Dems lose because they didn't run/couldn't get out of the primaries a serious, moderate candidate (and often vice-versa for the GOP.)  With all the Dem governors, mayors, and competent executives, why continue trotting out so many phony, pandering clowns?  Kamela, Biden, Booker, Gillibrand, etc. don't excite anyone in the independents/middle that you need to get over the hump, absent some lucky situation (which the volatile Trump could provide, but can you count on it?)  Seems like a Hickenlooper, Inslee, or even Brown could win fairly easily.  Proven successful executives of some of the best state economies, and I'm sure there are plenty of others, those are just 3 that immediately popped into my head.  Jerry Brown may be old, but Democrats hold up California as the most successful state in the country, with a booming economy.  Proven competence that they'll at least run the country well is most likely to entice me to hold my nose and cross the aisle. 

I see that in exactly none of the current candidates (until Hickenlooper jumps in.)  Sorry, Beto running a billion Joel Osteen type commercials does nothing for me.  He talked a bit more about substance in the debates, but that hyper, bouncing around style is just odd.  Maybe that's all that is needed in the current climate, there's been plenty of lightweights do well in the Prez primaries, but it seems like in 2020 America may well be worn out by the never ending reality TV politics, where a moderate, accomplished governing type could excel.   Seems like those types did better in this year's governor races than the newby media rock stars.  Bush, Clinton, Reagan, and Carter all won after being successful governors, while the other Bush, Nixon, LBJ, and Truman had served as Vice Prez in successful administrations.  Obama and JFK are relatively rare exceptions.

Edited November 7, 2018 by clapclapclap

[NowThis 931]

1 minute ago, RayDog said:

I meant 60% in national polling. In that respect Cruz is right that he is a better candidate outside of Texas.

Beto signs are spotted from Oregon to Connecticut, he's been on CNN and MSNBC town halls, on the late night shows etc. He's more Obama than Bill Clinton, just needs to be more specific in policy details - talk numbers, percentages, specific things to cut or create. Message wasn't too clear and the negative ads were very effective.  

[RayDog 682]

Just now, NowThis said:

Beto signs are spotted from Oregon to Connecticut, he's been on CNN and MSNBC town halls, on the late night shows etc. He's more Obama than Bill Clinton, just needs to be more specific in policy details - talk numbers, percentages, specific things to cut or create. Message wasn't too clear and the negative ads were very effective.  

I agree on all of that.