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Русский корабль - иди нахуй


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1 hour ago, B00M said:

The other difference is that all those people linking up can be identified in real time and disappeared in the following days

What's going to happen to them?  They'll be mobilized and sent to Ukraine?  Because the semi-able-bodied men that are left are going to be sent to Ukraine at some point anyways, and everybody knows it.  A year ago they were rounding up men off the streets and at bus and train stations, so the upcoming conscriptions will resort to them searching homes on a large scale and dragging the men out and sending them to Ukraine with a week's worth of training after they've fired half-a-magazine through a rusty AK-47.

That period between 1905-1917 is worth taking a look at, because it feels like we are somewhere in that timeframe.  I do think there is a tipping point, because they are starting to run low on men (witness them relaxing the physical and mental disability standards for conscripts).  And plenty of Russians realize they get nothing out of the Ukrainian fight except the losses of relatives, lowered wages, financial disruption, and the quality of goods and services is dropping.

1 hour ago, B00M said:

we need to find a way to get western ideals of individual liberty and opportunity to the general Russian population… we need to tear down and publicly air out the KGB/FSB/whatever in the courts, no matter how bad it may make some western leaders look … it will require massive money and humility from the west to actually change Russia. Do we care that much? 

We tried.  Maybe half-assed, but we tried in the wake of the Soviet Union collapsing.  A whole lot of Western companies moved in and tried to show them how to get away from all of the infamous shortages, bring in free market ideas, and generally get away from the dictatorships of old (and the oligarchs did take note), wages rose, many Russians had access to Western goods, and many Russians were able to travel around Europe and see the standard of living among the Eastern European nations that resulted when those countries followed the lead of their Western European brethren.  Not to mention that even those Russians who couldn't travel abroad still could see some of that through the internet.

As for why the Russians let Putin do what he did, to eventually become another dictator, and put themselves in a position where all of the things they had gained since 1991 were being systematically taken away, that's worthy of a long-ass thread and there's multiple books about it, but ultimately:

Russia gonna Russia.

I've seen a few analysts say that part of the problem is there are still enough people around in Russia that remember the Soviet Union and feel like it commanded respect, whereas the world shits on them now, but it's going to take another few decades to clear that group out.

Edited by atomheartbevo
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A huge problem for Russia, ironically, is that they don't have a Politburo that can remove Putin like they had in the Soviet Union days, which is why the comparisons to 1905-1917 and the removal of the Romanovs are brought up.  Nicholas II didn't have anybody keeping him in check, and he was too stubborn to see the writing on the wall and the need for reforms and he wasn't keyed into what/how the peasants were thinking/feeling, so he just let that pressure cooker build up steam until it was too late to do anything.

If/when shit goes down, it'll be nuts.  I'm assuming that any Russian forces still in Ukraine will surrender or try and head home, and if anybody ends up in charge in Russia I'd see them recalling Russia troops from Ukraine anyways - it'd be a popular move with the troops, and they may want to do something about those troops (the troops do have a lot of power in their hands, and the last thing a new leader wants is Russian generals next door to Russia with combat-hardened troops).

Edited by atomheartbevo
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8 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

What's going to happen to them?  They'll be mobilized and sent to Ukraine?  Because the semi-able-bodied men that are left are going to be sent to Ukraine at some point anyways, and everybody knows it.  A year ago they were rounding up men off the streets and at bus and train stations, so the upcoming conscriptions will resort to them searching homes on a large scale and dragging the men out and sending them to Ukraine with a week's worth of training after they've fired half-a-magazine through a rusty AK-47.

That period between 1905-1917 is worth taking a look at, because it feels like we are somewhere in that timeframe.  I do think there is a tipping point, because they are starting to run low on men (witness them relaxing the physical and mental disability standards for conscripts).  And plenty of Russians realize they get nothing out of the Ukrainian fight except the losses of relatives, lowered wages, financial disruption, and the quality of goods and services is dropping.

We tried.  Maybe half-assed, but we tried in the wake of the Soviet Union collapsing.  A whole lot of Western companies moved in and tried to show them how to get away from all of the infamous shortages, bring in free market ideas, and generally get away from the dictatorships of old (and the oligarchs did take note), wages rose, many Russians had access to Western goods, and many Russians were able to travel around Europe and see the standard of living among the Eastern European nations that resulted when those countries followed the lead of their Western European brethren.  Not to mention that even those Russians who couldn't travel abroad still could see some of that through the internet.

As for why the Russians let Putin do what he did, to eventually become another dictator, and put themselves in a position where all of the things they had gained since 1991 were being systematically taken away, that's worthy of a long-ass thread and there's multiple books about it, but ultimately:

Russia gonna Russia.

I've seen a few analysts say that part of the problem is there are still enough people around in Russia that remember the Soviet Union and feel like it commanded respect, whereas the world shits on them now, but it's going to take another few decades to clear that group out.

IMG_1665.thumb.jpeg.b290acff948d8659986d332fe0a65819.jpeg

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12 hours ago, B00M said:


 

we need to find a way to get western ideals of individual liberty and opportunity to the general Aggy population… we need to tear down and publicly air out the KGB/FSB/whatever in the courts, no matter how bad it may make some western leaders look … it will require massive money and humility from the west to actually change Aggy.
 

Same difference, same result.

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British Intelligence reports that Russia is heading for a defence spending of 30% of the total public expenditure in 2024, proposing a 10.8 trillion Rubles ($112 billion) defence budget which equals to 6% of the GDP and is a 68% increase over 2023. Russia is preparing for multiple years of fighting.

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1 hour ago, Hefeweizen said:

Credit to the UK

If you had told me back when this started that Finland and Sweden would be added to the NATO side and Boris of Bad Hair was to be the defender of Ukraine I would have laughed at it 

I still do, but it's full of schadenfreude. Putin changed the trajectory of how it was going in the EU. It's a realignment all right, but not what he expected.

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13 hours ago, KYHorn said:

For those who won't go there,  I'll keep it above CR territory.

In case you were wondering, the few on the far right who were holding everything up over Ukraine aren't happy about this. 

HOUSE DEM LEADERSHIP STATEMENT: 

"When the House returns, we expect Speaker McCarthy to advance a bill to the House Floor for an up-or-down vote that supports Ukraine, consistent with his commitment to making sure that Vladimir Putin, Russia and authoritarianism are defeated. We must stand with the Ukrainian people until victory is won."

From CNN updates:

 

Biden says US "will not walk away" from Ukraine and calls on Republicans to support new aid

Biden - "But let's be clear. I hope my friends on the other side keep their word about support for Ukraine. They said they were going to support Ukraine in a separate vote," the president said. "We cannot, under any circumstances, allow American support for Ukraine to be interrupted," he said.

-------

 

War and politics cannot be separated. The realpolitiks of war dictate.  It follows that one does not turn a blind eye to who supports funding war and who does not.

If mods feel this is inappropriate, please move.

 

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19 hours ago, BamaATL said:

Also flying under the radar, Senate has a billed teed up for Monday that will push forward funding.  I don't understand the mechanisms of all this, but apparently it more or less bypasses the budget stuff.  If what I have read is correct, and I understood it correctly, it removes this from the political squabbling.  

I am not sure what this references. I've read a R Senate member wants to try to bundle a huge amount of Ukraine funding with "border" funding.

Spending bills are constitutionally required to begin in the House of Reps. though so at this point it sounds like he (Graham) is seeing if he can float a proposal that would get bipartisan Senate support, and thereby give the Senate a stronger negotiating position with the House when the House finally sends a spending bill to them.

12 hours ago, KYHorn said:

British Intelligence reports that Russia is heading for a defence spending of 30% of the total public expenditure in 2024, proposing a 10.8 trillion Rubles ($112 billion) defence budget which equals to 6% of the GDP and is a 68% increase over 2023. Russia is preparing for multiple years of fighting.

I imagine it's a ploy to try to get the West to think it's a "forever war" and become more motivated to negotiate with ruski on their terms.

Apologies if this has already been posted in this thread. I don't recall seeing it. Regarding those connected and fortified Russian bunkers and tunnels...Apparently the Ukrainians are going to be the first to use the new XM1147 AMP tank rounds for the Abrams in battle. They replace 4 different types of rounds. From Task & Purpose.
 

Quote

The XM-1147 Advanced Multi-Purpose (AMP) round, a line-of-sight tank round developed by Northrop Grumman Defense Systems for the Abrams tank, is designed to do the job of four existing rounds, consolidating their abilities into one munition. It will replace the M830 High Explosive Anti-Tank (HEAT) and the M830A1 Multi-Purpose Anti-Tank (MPAT), both designed for light armor targets and aerial targets, in the case of the MPAT; the M1028 canister (CAN) round, used to hit infantry targets outside the range of machine guns; and the M908 obstacle reducing (OR) round, according to the Army release.

As Forbes reported this year, the AMP “can flatten bunkers, pulverize obstacles, breach concrete walls or take out groups of personnel. And it can destroy armored and unarmored vehicles and buildings, too.”

 

 

Edited by Chopper
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6 minutes ago, Chopper said:
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10) Finding an end-game in Ukraine is a genuine challenge. No one thinks we can pour endless amounts of money into the conflict. But if we are to negotiate a lasting peace, we need to do so from a position of strength, not a position of surrender.

I would just add that it also needs to be done in a way that doesn't allow the fucking russians to build up their military during a pause and then start all this anew a few years down the line. Which of course they will do if given room to do so.

 

 

Why do we need to find an end-game? That's Russia's problem. F16s and ATACMS out front should of told ya.

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9 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Why do we need to find an end-game? That's Russia's problem. F16s and ATACMS out front should of told ya.

In spirit I agree a million percent. But unless this one ends with Ukraine successfully invading Moscow and Putin swallowing poison in his bunker, there's eventually going to be some sort of negotiated settlement.

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11 hours ago, Chopper said:

In spirit I agree a million percent. But unless this one ends with Ukraine successfully invading Moscow and Putin swallowing poison in his bunker, there's eventually going to be some sort of negotiated settlement.

"Y'all go home, don't come back."

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