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SmokeyBear1861

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1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

Jesus christ some of you are a fucking beating, man. I should have put that in a different thread.

While I don't agree with it, making an institutional decision not to do pride week is a bit different from telling an individual in an organization they can't wear a jersey.

Yeah they're both "political."  But one may have worse optics than the other, notwithstanding any political bias.

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3 hours ago, chainsaw said:

I haven't seen the case made for why they shouldn't.

Just to make sure I understand your stance.  You believe that Israel should be disbanded, the Jews living there should move out or be forced out and the Palestinians should be given that entire area (Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, whatever…) to create Palestine.  That would be pre 1948, correct?

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34 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

Just to make sure I understand your stance.  You believe that Israel should be disbanded, the Jews living there should move out or be forced out and the Palestinians should be given that entire area (Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, whatever…) to create Palestine.  That would be pre 1948, correct?

Que @Brian Fantana

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7 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

From a purely rational and self-interest perspective, the fact that Hamas is not an existential threat to Israel is all the more reason to destroy them completely and rapidly. You would have to treat an actual existential threat much more seriously and carefully because of the damage they are capable of inflicting on you.

The balance of power has protected Hamas. Israel felt secure and safe, underestimated Hamas’ will and capabilities, and allowed that to cloud their vigilance. It is actually a fairly big humanitarian win that Israel allowed them to exist and govern this long given the asymmetry, very few other nations in a similar situation would tolerate their existence and just invest in Iron Dome. 
 

Hamas is in the in-between of not being strong enough to pose an existential threat but strong enough to kill 1000 plus people on a single day in the most spectacularly violent means imaginable. 

Lets get something clear, Israel funded newborn Hamas, Netanyahu was revealed recently to support the existence of Hamas.

“’Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,’ he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. ‘This is part of our strategy—to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.’”

 

Basically the fact that Hamas exists today is basically Israel's doing, from the 80s to today, all to thwart the PLO.

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6 hours ago, linux said:

Lets get something clear, Israel funded newborn Hamas, Netanyahu was revealed recently to support the existence of Hamas.

“’Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,’ he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. ‘This is part of our strategy—to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.’”

 

Basically the fact that Hamas exists today is basically Israel's doing, from the 80s to today, all to thwart the PLO.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2019-10-01/ty-article/israel-quietly-lets-in-gaza-workers-in-bid-to-ease-tensions/0000017f-e548-dc7e-adff-f5edf54e0000

They allowed aid to Hamas in exchange for reduced rocket fire. Just like all their efforts. It’s always giving up something for peace. A peace that is never kept by the other party. 

It’s not Israel’s fault Hamas exists. That’s absurd.

It’s also not the US fault Russian invaded Ukraine. Same absurdity 
 

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8 hours ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

You believe that Israel should be disbanded,

Not sure what you mean by this

8 hours ago, longhornmatt said:

the Jews living there should move out or be forced out

Not what I'm saying. Jews have always lived in the area, but not in the occupied territories.

8 hours ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

the Palestinians should be given that entire area (Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, whatever…)

The occupied territories have always been Palestine, so in a sense yes.

To provide some context, this is what @Brisketexan had said:

14 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

The conversation will never get any traction as long as it's painted as "no, see, all Palestinians are murderous antisemitic animals and must be caged" or "the Palestinian people are all innocent victims, and should get back everything they had pre-1948."  If you want to stick with white-hat v black-hat narratives, you'll get ongoing conflict.  Which is what we've been doing.  And what we've gotten.  So, by all means, keep pushing that narrative.  It's been super successful.

The point being made, along the lines of a classic "both sides" false equivalence, is that the status quo ante would be as bad as caging Palestinians.

It's not hard to make the case that caging Palestinians just because they are Palestinians is unacceptable.

But I don't see why pre-1948 borders can be seriously considered the moral equivalent of placing an entire people in cages. Maybe if you think it means the expulsion of all Jews, but I don't see why it would mean that. I just mean that the apartheid should end and Arabs should have equal rights.

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3 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Not sure what you mean by this

Not what I'm saying. Jews have always lived in the area, but not in the occupied territories.

The occupied territories have always been Palestine, so in a sense yes.

To provide some context, this is what @Brisketexan had said:

The point being made, along the lines of a classic "both sides" false equivalence, is that the status quo ante would be as bad as caging Palestinians.

It's not hard to make the case that caging Palestinians just because they are Palestinians is unacceptable.

But I don't see why pre-1948 borders can be seriously considered the moral equivalent of placing an entire people in cages. Maybe if you think it means the expulsion of all Jews, but I don't see why it would mean that. I just mean that the apartheid should end and Arabs should have equal rights.

Show me on a map the occupied territories you are referring to please.  I just want to understand your view point of what that means.

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Just now, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

Show me on a map the occupied territories you are referring to please.  I just want to understand your view point of what that means.

He means that all of Israel should become Palestine and Jews would either live under Palestinian rule or leave, he’s just using a lot more words to say it. 

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14 hours ago, Anastasis said:

So awesome, images and reports of the bombing of the St. Porphyrius church compound in Gaza coming through. This is a place where Palestinian Christians in particular have been seeking refuge. Early reports are that the two story admin building that was housing refugees was flattened. The images and video being shared online are clearly in the church compound, and well, shit looks pretty bad. We'll get to see how this one shakes out. There were reports a week ago or so that were not accurate, so again, will need to let the assessments play out. 

 

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45 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Not what I'm saying. Jews have always lived in the area, but not in the occupied territories.

The occupied territories have always been Palestine, so in a sense yes [the Palestinians should be given that entire area (Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, whatever…)].

This is beyond fiction.  Jews have never historically lived in the West Bank or Gaza?

And, it confirms alignment with Palestinians that "Palestine" really means everything from the river to the sea.

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14 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

I don't necessarily mind the Israel jersey but the hypocrisy really pisses me off. Just another instance of people not so subtle hinting at which group they consider human.

I don't really know the backstory, but that seems like a bit of a leap to go from not participating in something to = calling others subhuman. 

Go Astros

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1 minute ago, Tonesky said:

This is beyond fiction.  Jews have never historically lived in the West Bank or Gaza?

And, it confirms alignment with Palestinians that Palestine really means everything from the river to the sea.

Apparently the non-Jews built those synagogues.  

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31 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

Show me on a map the occupied territories you are referring to please.  I just want to understand your view point of what that means.

There is a reason that you have never seen a single Palestinian representative/negotiator ever present such a map.

29 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

He means that all of Israel should become Palestine and Jews would either live under Palestinian rule or leave, he’s just using a lot more words to say it. 

Bingo!  [Except, for the fantasy of Jews living under Palestinian rule.]

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5 minutes ago, Nivek said:

I don't really know the backstory, but that seems like a bit of a leap to go from not participating in something to = calling others subhuman. 

Go Astros

Right.  All this really amounts to is spineless hypocritical economics.  Pride night in 2023 means angry cultists and lost revenue.  Supporting Israel; not so much.

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10 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

There is a reason that you have never seen a single Palestinian representative/negotiator ever present such a map.

Bingo!  [Except, for the fantasy of Jews living under Palestinian rule.]

Why are you so convinced that they would try to kill Jews? If that were true wouldn't you see more violence against Jews committed by Palestinian refugees in other countries? Wouldn't the poll numbers of Palestinians also be higher, in response to questions about violence, and lower, in response to disapproval of Hamas?

Why do you dismiss peace as a fantasy?

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1 hour ago, chainsaw said:

Not what I'm saying. Jews have always lived in the area, but not in the occupied territories.

The occupied territories have always been Palestine, so in a sense yes [the Palestinians should be given that entire area (Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, whatever…)].

 

47 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

This is beyond fiction.  Jews have never historically lived in the West Bank or Gaza?

And, it confirms alignment with Palestinians that "Palestine" really means everything from the river to the sea.

 

10 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

How long should we expect the Israeli military to be there?

Evasive non-sequitur. 

But, since you chimed in, want to confirm whether you also believe Jews have no historical presence in the West Bank and Gaza?  Or that "Palestine" refers to everything from the river to the sea?

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WhAt MaKeS yOu tHiNk ThEy’D WaNt To KiLl JeWs?

image.thumb.jpeg.375b217216de4e440797e0997147c0dc.jpegimage.jpeg.1352ee3b5994739252fd7a9e63def1c9.jpegimage.jpeg.850a5b7171ddad81bdbccab3c0edff21.jpegimage.jpeg.ab795f2b8e5e5f8ff1cf74acc4f8c401.jpeg

Imagine how far you have to crawl up your own asshole to ask that fucking question after October 7. Those first two photos are of a pre-school, BTW.

Quoting polling numbers and shit, GTFO. “Only ten perfect of Germans ever joined the NSDAP, what makes you think they can’t live peacefully with Jews in Poland?” 
 

Fuck your disingenuous bullshit. 

Edited by 956 Worldwide
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Just now, Tonesky said:

Evasive non-sequitur. 

But, since you chimed in, want to confirm whether you also believe Jews have no historical presence in the West Bank and Gaza?  Or that "Palestine" refers to everything from the river to the sea?

I believe Jews have a historical presence there. I'm just wondering how long we can expect the Israeli military to continue occupying the West Bank.

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18 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

WhAt MaKeS yOu tHiNk ThEy’D WaNt To KiLl JeWs?

image.thumb.jpeg.375b217216de4e440797e0997147c0dc.jpegimage.jpeg.1352ee3b5994739252fd7a9e63def1c9.jpegimage.jpeg.850a5b7171ddad81bdbccab3c0edff21.jpegimage.jpeg.ab795f2b8e5e5f8ff1cf74acc4f8c401.jpeg

Imagine how far you have to crawl up your own asshole to ask that fucking question after October 7. Those first two photos are of a pre-school, BTW.

Quoting polling numbers and shit, GTFO. “Only ten perfect of Germans ever joined the NSDAP, what makes you think they can’t live peacefully with Jews in Poland?” 
 

Fuck your disingenuous bullshit. 

conflating again.

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17 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

WhAt MaKeS yOu tHiNk ThEy’D WaNt To KiLl JeWs?

image.thumb.jpeg.375b217216de4e440797e0997147c0dc.jpegimage.jpeg.1352ee3b5994739252fd7a9e63def1c9.jpegimage.jpeg.850a5b7171ddad81bdbccab3c0edff21.jpegimage.jpeg.ab795f2b8e5e5f8ff1cf74acc4f8c401.jpeg

Imagine how far you have to crawl up your own asshole to ask that fucking question after October 7. Those first two photos are of a pre-school, BTW.

Quoting polling numbers and shit, GTFO. “Only ten perfect of Germans ever joined the NSDAP, what makes you think they can’t live peacefully with Jews in Poland?” 
 

Fuck your disingenuous bullshit. 

You're clearly being dismissive of the 60% that do think jews have a right to exist. Since they are in a position of power, being the majority, they should be adults and demand restraint. 

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18 minutes ago, Fud said:

 

 

Man, I am sure glad that twitter is here to clear this up and provide pictures of the crater in the church compound and the rubble of the admin/hall building. The katholikon of the church compound thankfully appears to have only superficial damage.

Here is the entrance to the compound, and an after picture. Note the inscription and cross above the entrance and in the rubble. The large crater with that has a tapestry of the nativity sitting in it in some of the online images is directly to the left of this image. 

image.png.a756ac9e82d539b691812d86ba718498.png

 

Image

 

 

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3 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

What the fuck am I conflating? Did or did not the current governing authority for Palestinians in Gaza plan, organize, and execute the above massacre against Jews (sorry, it’s against Israelis when they are being murdered). 

That "governing authority" is not the same thing as the people who live there, who haven't had elections in nearly 20 years and when they did the "governing authority" only won by 29k votes. The people, when polled, did not support ending the ceasefire.

Stop conflating, and stop assuming that hostilities would continue at the same intensity or frequency once the occupation (the reason behind the hostilities) has ended.

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1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

That "governing authority" is not the same thing as the people who live there, who haven't had elections in nearly 20 years and when they did the "governing authority" only won by 29k votes. The people, when polled, did not support ending the ceasefire.

Stop conflating, and stop assuming that hostilities would continue at the same intensity or frequency once the occupation (the reason behind the hostilities) has ended.

NoT aLl GeRmAnS 

PS: Hamas received a greater percentage of votes than the NDSAP ever did (44 vs 33). I’m on board with approaching the problem set similarly to the ways the Allies looked at Germany. 

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3 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Conflation. Just say you're prejudiced against Arabs, then. Own it.

EABOD.  The point is that no matter who we want to be in charge in Gaza, Hamas actually is and in no other circumstances do we say “you can’t fight a war against the entity trying to destroy you because not everyone they govern agrees with them. If you just surrender there will be peace.” 
 

Also, just yesterday you said that Israel is responsible for the safety of Jews worldwide (and thus to blame for all the violence and hatred directed against them) that Israel should listen to the non-Israeli Good Jews you agree with. So fuck off with your conflation high horse. 

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9 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

EABOD.  The point is that no matter who we want to be in charge in Gaza, Hamas actually is and in no other circumstances do we say “you can’t fight a war against the entity trying to destroy you because not everyone they govern agrees with them. If you just surrender there will be peace.” 
 

Also, just yesterday you said that Israel is responsible for the safety of Jews worldwide (and thus to blame for all the violence and hatred directed against them) that Israel should listen to the non-Israeli Good Jews you agree with. So fuck off with your conflation high horse. 

There's a difference between "surrender" and ending an illegal occupation.

I did not say Israel is "to blame" but I did say that, for better or for worse, the government's decisions affect more people than its own citizens.

I've been consistent about how Jews (both in Israel and worldwide) are not a monolith, and there's a large and growing number of anti-war, anti-occupation Jews that we should be listening to. Their concerns are rooted not only in morality but also security. Listening to them means I'm victim-blaming? I don't think so.

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35 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Stop conflating, and stop assuming that hostilities would continue at the same intensity or frequency once the occupation (the reason behind the hostilities) has ended.

Once you understand that by this sentence, chainsaw is saying "once the jewish israeli state in the levant has ended."  He is too much of a coward to actually say it, but that's exactly what he's referring to.

Turn the levant into the Palestinian state.  Any jews that want to live there, go for it.  But they won't be living in a jewish Israeli state.  There won't be one.

And he thinks this pitch has a greater than 0% chance of working.

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6 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

“Ukraine should also surrender because not all Russians agree with Putin and if they just stop fighting there will be peace in Donetsk.” 
 

Fuck off with this shit. 

LMAO dude Ukraine has never displaced Russians from ancestral lands. For what it's worth, I have some sympathy for the clueless conscripts, who are overwhelmingly drawn for non-ethnically Russian areas, that have been sent to the front lines but my sympathy ends when they participate in war crimes against Ukrainian civilians.

I don't know what kind of popular support the war in Russia has among Russian citizens, but I don't think anyone would be justified in committing crimes against humanity in Moscow as a form of collective punishment for the decisions of Russia's government.

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Once you understand that by this sentence, chainsaw is saying "once the jewish israeli state in the levant has ended."  He is too much of a coward to actually say it, but that's exactly what he's referring to.

Turn the levant into the Palestinian state.  Any jews that want to live there, go for it.  But they won't be living in a jewish Israeli state.  There won't be one.

And he thinks this pitch has a greater than 0% chance of working.

That's not my position. I was only questioning why you believe it's on par with caging Palestinians. Is that really a fair comparison to make?

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2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

He means that all of Israel should become Palestine and Jews would either live under Palestinian rule or leave, he’s just using a lot more words to say it. 

 

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Once you understand that by this sentence, chainsaw is saying "once the jewish israeli state in the levant has ended."  He is too much of a coward to actually say it, but that's exactly what he's referring to.

Turn the levant into the Palestinian state.  Any jews that want to live there, go for it.  But they won't be living in a jewish Israeli state.  There won't be one.

And he thinks this pitch has a greater than 0% chance of working.

You two should be ashamed of yourselves for shamelessly straw manning like this. I honestly never thought I'd see Brisket argue in such bad faith until this situation unfolded.

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8 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

LMAO dude Ukraine has never displaced Russians from ancestral lands. For what it's worth, I have some sympathy for the clueless conscripts, who are overwhelmingly drawn for non-ethnically Russian areas, that have been sent to the front lines but my sympathy ends when they participate in war crimes against Ukrainian civilians.

I don't know what kind of popular support the war in Russia has among Russian citizens, but I don't think anyone would be justified in committing crimes against humanity in Moscow as a form of collective punishment for the decisions of Russia's government.

That's not my position. I was only questioning why you believe it's on par with caging Palestinians. Is that really a fair comparison to make?

Then state your position, and how it differs from what I posted.

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Just now, Brian Fantana said:

 

You two should be ashamed of yourselves for shamelessly straw manning like this. I honestly never thought I'd see Brisket argue in such bad faith until this situation unfolded.

Yeah.....I gotta tell ya, and I'm being dead-honest here - I'm not trying to straw man anything.  I truly can't see any alternate reading of what he said.  But if y'all want to put crystal clarity on your position, that would preclude any straw manning, intentional or accidental.

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Just now, Brisketexan said:

Yeah.....I gotta tell ya, and I'm being dead-honest here - I'm not trying to straw man anything.  I truly can't see any alternate reading of what he said.  But if y'all want to put crystal clarity on your position, that would preclude any straw manning, intentional or accidental.

The guy came back and literally said “what makes you think there’d be violence once Palestinians were given all of the territory governed by Israel.” 
 

How are we supposed to read that? 

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13 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

LMAO dude Ukraine has never displaced Russians from ancestral lands. For what it's worth, I have some sympathy for the clueless conscripts, who are overwhelmingly drawn for non-ethnically Russian areas, that have been sent to the front lines but my sympathy ends when they participate in war crimes against Ukrainian civilians.

I don't know what kind of popular support the war in Russia has among Russian citizens, but I don't think anyone would be justified in committing crimes against humanity in Moscow as a form of collective punishment for the decisions of Russia's government.

That's not my position. I was only questioning why you believe it's on par with caging Palestinians. Is that really a fair comparison to make?

Russia literally says that Ukraine was committing crimes against humanity in Novorossiya vis a vis ethnic Russians and that’s why they invaded. 

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7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Yeah.....I gotta tell ya, and I'm being dead-honest here - I'm not trying to straw man anything.  I truly can't see any alternate reading of what he said.  But if y'all want to put crystal clarity on your position, that would preclude any straw manning, intentional or accidental.

I'm not gonna speak for him but that seems like the least charitable way to read into that.

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Brisket, you know as well as anyone that there are plenty of ways to protect Jewish Israelis and their political power even in a unified state with Palestinians. This "they'll outfuck and outreproduce the Jews and then kill them all" is just replacement theory shit and is as likely to happen there as it is to happen here.

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18 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Then state your position, and how it differs from what I posted.

My position is in the immediate term there should be a ceasefire, there should be a restoration of basic necessities to the people of Gaza, and there should be peace talks mediated by the UN. Hostages should be returned immediately, whose return I understand has been on the table for days.

Long term, the solution most Palestinians would have supported (before the attacks and retaliation) was 1967 borders, with no apartheid or other bullshit. Dignity for everyone involved. I think Israel could support that as well, if Palestine were to put measures in place that forbid terror groups or their current/former members from holding any kind of office (so we don't have a repeat of 2006).

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22 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Yeah.....I gotta tell ya, and I'm being dead-honest here - I'm not trying to straw man anything.  I truly can't see any alternate reading of what he said.  But if y'all want to put crystal clarity on your position, that would preclude any straw manning, intentional or accidental.

Legit do not understand how you can say “let’s return to the pre-1948 borders” and it mean anything else. That’s when the Jewish state in the Levant was founded. 

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11 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Legit do not understand how you can say “let’s return to the pre-1948 borders” and it mean anything else. That’s when the Jewish state in the Levant was founded. 

and that's as bad or worse than caging people on the basis of their race?

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You say "...solution most Palestinians would have supported (before the attacks and retaliation) was 1967 borders" and follow with "I think Israel could support that as well, if Palestine were to put measures in place that forbid terror...holding office."

So Palestine can no longer support that, but Israel could? This twisting of tenses is probably disingenuous as it implies Israel should pursue your proposal while acknowledging Palestine no longer would. Even if it isn't, it's actually correct: Gaza would not accept a peace fire, because Hamas is in charge of Gaza. Terror organizations don't voluntarily go away. They grow (hezbollah) or are exterminated. They killed and raped and tortured human beings as a recruiting event and pledge drive. That's it. 

 

There is no solution possible with Hamas. If you don't know that, you should.

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52 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

My position is in the immediate term there should be a ceasefire, there should be a restoration of basic necessities to the people of Gaza, and there should be peace talks mediated by the UN. Hostages should be returned immediately, whose return I understand has been on the table for days.

Long term, the solution most Palestinians would have supported (before the attacks and retaliation) was 1967 borders, with no apartheid or other bullshit. Dignity for everyone involved. I think Israel could support that as well, if Palestine were to put measures in place that forbid terror groups or their current/former members from holding any kind of office (so we don't have a repeat of 2006).

I asked a simple question based on your pre 1948 comment. You were unable to speak like an adult and answer it in a simple sentence and adding a simple map of what you believe.

IMG_0254.gif

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