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8 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

I didn't consider his last response to be bad faith.  Misguided and simplistic, perhaps.  I can understand your disagreement with his opinion, especially given your personal attachment to and passion regarding this issue, but perhaps you might want to reflect on whether a kneejerk response like the last one was warranted.

Meh. He's essentially made the same post over and over and over in this thread. Despite being told repeatedly, by multiple posters, just how ignorant his perspective is (and gently at first mind you), it seems like he's just going to keep doing it. I have zero patience for it.

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3 hours ago, BrickHorn said:

Define “no one.”

Anyone with a brain who can see that Israel's response has not been proportional to the attacks on Oct. 7th.

It's like Groundhog day from 9/11. 

I said it then regarding the US use of force in Afghanistan (don't get me started about Iraq), and it applies to Israel in Gaza.  We should have relied entirely on special forces, and the CIA to root out Osama and Al Qaeda.  There was/is no reason to put the greater population in harm's way.  Too many civilians killed, leading to increased hatred toward the US/Israel, that will continue to stoke the flames of terrorism for decades to come.  

And at what cost?  How many civilian lives were lost?  How many dead and mangled soldiers?  How many trillions of dollars wasted?  And for what?  Ultimately it was the CIA and SEAL Team 6 that took out Bin Laden, as it should have been from the jump.

Israel is making the same mistake IMO.

Edited by DixonHur
Wrong date...oops
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37 minutes ago, statsman said:

It is awful. It hurts to think about. 
 
How should it end? Hamas should surrender. Hamas fucked up (Iran helped them make the mistake). They picked a fight they can’t win, unless they can pressure Israel to stop. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and any Gazan civilians holding hostages should release them, if still alive. 
 
Israel is less restrained than before. There are more innocents being killed. They are not letting safety of hostages override all. It looks like this will continue until Hamas surrenders or is wiped out. I don’t see another choice between supporting Israel, supporting Hamas (cease fire), or doing nothing. I guess records can be made for future war crime trials…for both sides, for what good it will do  

What more is there to say?

 

The strategy should be to treat Hamas as terrorists and fight them as such, not full scale war against 2 million residents of Gaza. I compared it earlier to the U.S. approach (in theory) in Afghanistan. We weren't just bombing the shit out of every city because terrorists might be hiding there, we were strategic in targeting terrorists (again in theory). I've kind of checked out on this a bit, but I heard on the radio this morning that at least 27,000 Palestinians have been killed in the fighting. An article I saw in the Economist (I think, it was a reputable source) said that official members of Hamas are estimated at 30K to 35K. The dead are almost overwhelmingly not part of that group. It's is completely disproportionate and in my view the definition of "collective punishment" which is a war crime. The same clip from this morning said that over a million people are now in the refugee camps on the southern border town of Rafah, more in fact, they said it was about 60-70% of the population, and Israel's next move is to basically wipe them out with a ground offensive. Israel is literally wiping Palestinians off the map. It's infuriating that, even if Biden wanted to flat out call Israel war criminals, he is completely hamstrung by the overwhelming majority view of voters in this country that think Palestinian = Muslim = Terrorists = "they want to exterminate the Jews." That's just how it is, a temporary ceasefire is all that can be accomplished. I want to see Bibi hung in Brussels, on a live stream, in public, because he is pure evil, no different that Hamas at this point, but with real political power and the support of the western military powers.  

Edited by 'stache
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6 minutes ago, Skipper said:

This is why nobody posts in this thread.  It's turned into a group think circle jerk where any statement other than "Fuck Israel" is met with responses like this. 

This is just objectively incorrect and literally anyone who has actually followed the thread will tell you the same.

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2 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

It's just interesting that no one wants to talk about this anymore now that it's abundantly clear how wrong it is.

Even the horny ass warmongers in the DT thread have stopped posting their dumbass ops tweets every day.

It was also interesting when Oct 7 happened, there were no outrage posts and condemnation from posters when it was abundantly clear how wrong that was

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1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

Anyone with a brain who can see that Israel's response has not been proportional to the attacks on Oct. 8th.

It's like Groundhog day from 9/11. 

I said it then regarding the US use of force in Afghanistan (don't get me started about Iraq), and it applies to Israel in Gaza.  We should have relied entirely on special forces, and the CIA to root out Osama and Al Qaeda.  There was/is no reason to put the greater population in harm's way.  Too many civilians killed, leading to increased hatred toward the US/Israel, that will continue to stoke the flames of terrorism for decades to come.  

And at what cost?  How many civilian lives were lost?  How many dead and mangled soldiers?  How many trillions of dollars wasted?  And for what?  Ultimately it was the CIA and SEAL Team 6 that took out Bin Laden, as it should have been from the jump.

Israel is making the same mistake IMO.

I tried to make this comparison early on shortly after the attacks and got repeatedly screeched at for it.

The problem is, it's not a mistake (at least in their eyes), it's a deliberate strategy in furtherance of ethnic cleansing.

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2 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

It was also interesting when Oct 7 happened, there were no outrage posts and condemnation from posters when it was abundantly clear how wrong that was

This is just untrue, man. Everybody, minus a small percentage of fringe degens, has repeatedly condemned the attacks. Including myself.

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9 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

This is just untrue, man. Everybody, minus a small percentage of fringe degens, has repeatedly condemned the attacks. Including myself.

Your first posts after 10/7 were totally about condemnation and not “this is just what happens”

IMG_0368.thumb.jpeg.bc56b4bbf02b372a3582411733959144.jpegIMG_0369.thumb.jpeg.5761133ce941dee45a0976ee13ffebc7.jpeg

 

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19 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Anyone with a brain who can see that Israel's response has not been proportional to the attacks on Oct. 7th.

The point of my question was not whether it would be reasonable to criticize Israel’s actions in Gaza, but rather to understand what makes you believe many (much less all) are critical of those actions. 

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2 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

The point of my question was not whether it would be reasonable to criticize Israel’s actions in Gaza, but rather to understand what makes you believe many (much less all) are critical of those actions. 

Understood.  But my comment still remains true.  It was not directed at you personally.

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20 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Your first posts after 10/7 were totally about condemnation and not “this is just what happens”

IMG_0368.thumb.jpeg.bc56b4bbf02b372a3582411733959144.jpegIMG_0369.thumb.jpeg.5761133ce941dee45a0976ee13ffebc7.jpeg

 

Yeah and guess what?

I still believe that clever and careful manipulation of Western leaders and media has led to the Western world easily outright dismissing the scores of dead Palestinian bodies that have piled up over the decades and the atrocities that are committed by the Israeli government regularly.

I still believe that Oct. 7th was absolutely a result of Israel reaping what it has sewn. I stand by the idea that violent backlash against a belligerent, violent occupier is an understandable/rational action.

That being said, I have and still do condemn Hamas and its deliberate targeting of civilians. They are disgusting right wing fundamentalists, much like Bibi's government on the Israeli side.

This is why I always say that you're just out for a gotcha on this specific topic, for whatever reason.

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On 2/8/2024 at 10:58 AM, Boss Hogg said:

Again, it’s an existential fight for Israel. All that matters to them is winning. It doesn’t make what they’re doing right, but don’t be surprised by it.

Take it from one of our top generals in WW2  

Le May’s strategy was to “bomb and burn “em till they quit.” He once said, "I'll tell you what war is about. You've got to kill people, and when you've killed enough, they stop fighting." On another occasion he said, “I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal. Fortunately, we were on the winning side.”

This is Bibi's strategy.  

He's going to beat Gaza to death, and even if they live they'll never forget how bad it was and they'll never do anything to repeat it.

Want to know why Germany and Japan aren't a threat anymore?

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1 minute ago, Bullneck said:

This is Bibi's strategy.  

He's going to beat Gaza to death, and even if they live they'll never forget how bad it was and they'll never do anything to repeat it.

Want to know why Germany and Japan aren't a threat anymore?

If you can't see the difference between Nazi Germany/Imperial Japan, and Gaza, there's no helping you.

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6 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

This is Bibi's strategy.  

He's going to beat Gaza to death, and even if they live they'll never forget how bad it was and they'll never do anything to repeat it.

Want to know why Germany and Japan aren't a threat anymore?

They're not a threat anymore because we removed their belligerents from power.

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1 minute ago, Bullneck said:

This is Bibi's strategy.  

He's going to beat Gaza to death, and even if they live they'll never forget how bad it was and they'll never do anything to repeat it.

Want to know why Germany and Japan aren't a threat anymore?

Because they are nation states that could and did execute an instrument of unconditional surrender.....followed by a relatively benevolent occupation....including an unprecedented rebuilding plan funded and directed by their former foe.

So....the parallels to Israel v the Palestinian people (because that's clearly what Bibi is fighting) are.....pretty limited.

Bibi's approach is guaranteed to do one thing, long-term: create at least one, probably two, generations of Palestinians who hate Israel with the white hot intensity of a thousand suns.  His real goal is extermination of the Palestinians, but as Hitler showed us, full-on extermination is actually tough to accomplish.  It requires a full machinery of extermination.  Military force alone won't get you there.  So, Bibi is pursuing genocide, but not even effectively.  He'll get all of the negatives of trying to genocide your opponent without the only "benefit" (your opponent no longer exists).  It's not just evil, it's dumb and self-destructive.  But, that's what bad actors do.  Like Hamas.  Great move, guys.  You set in motion something that got tens of thousands of your people killed, and countless other lives destroyed/ruined.  Well-done.  So, fellas, how's this "campaign of genocide against our enemy" thing going for you?  Seems...not so great.

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4 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:
7 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

This is Bibi's strategy.  

He's going to beat Gaza to death, and even if they live they'll never forget how bad it was and they'll never do anything to repeat it.

Want to know why Germany and Japan aren't a threat anymore?

 

 

Seemingly so.  My arm chair opinion is that this will backfire far beyond their worst expectations. 

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Just now, BurgleBro said:

 

Seemingly so.  My arm chair opinion is that this will backfire far beyond their worst expectations. 

It will.  It doesn't even require complex thinking.

Just ask yourself "if I was a Palestinian resident of Gaza, after the events of the past months, what would I want to do regarding Israel?"  If your answer isn't "lash out to cause as much pain as possible wherever possible against anyone remotely associated with or supporting Israel," you are lying.  Bibi's plan might as well be titled "How to Create Generations of Terrorists to replace the few Terrorists that You Just Killed, and Then Some."

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15 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

I'm just pointing out inconsistencies in the moral outrage. I'm not out to get anyone. 

Have a great day

So I just looked back, and on the same fucking day of the 2nd post you screenshotted, I made multiple posts pointing out that Hamas' deliberate targeting of civilians was wrong, including this one:

image.thumb.png.14b5b2a43f89b959766ac272c5cc99ff.png

I'm struggling to see the supposed inconsistencies of my position.

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11 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

It will.  It doesn't even require complex thinking.

Just ask yourself "if I was a Palestinian resident of Gaza, after the events of the past months, what would I want to do regarding Israel?"  If your answer isn't "lash out to cause as much pain as possible wherever possible against anyone remotely associated with or supporting Israel," you are lying.  Bibi's plan might as well be titled "How to Create Generations of Terrorists to replace the few Terrorists that You Just Killed, and Then Some."

I've never understood Hamas' actual strategy or goal with respect to the 10/7 attack but maybe you just articulated it.  Get Israel to kill as many Palestinians as possible to extend multi-generational jihad.  Which would also explain to date their approach to recent cease-fire negotiations.

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Just now, Skipper said:

I've never understood Hamas' actual strategy or goal with respect to the 10/7 attack but maybe you just articulated it.  Get Israel to kill as many Palestinians as possible to extend multi-generational jihad.  Which would also explain to date their approach to recent cease-fire negotiations.

It goes deeper than this on a global geopolitical level, but the lead up, the attacks on 10/7, and the response of Israel really just plainly illustrate the reality of the situation:

Hamas needs a government like Bibi's in order to justify their existence and hold onto power, and Bibi needs Hamas effectively for the exact same reason, with differing goals of course. It's a vicious ouroboros.

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3 minutes ago, Skipper said:

I've never understood Hamas' actual strategy or goal with respect to the 10/7 attack but maybe you just articulated it.  Get Israel to kill as many Palestinians as possible to extend multi-generational jihad.  Which would also explain to date their approach to recent cease-fire negotiations.

I don't get it either because the Israeli government and settlers are doing well enough on their own to continue ramping up hatred.

For example, the speed at which settlers are colonizing the West Bank is accelerating. For those who pretend to think that Israel just wants to be left alone in peace and that Palestinians are the real problem, look no further than how people are actually voting with their feet by attempting to occupy the land "from the river to the sea" as three NEW settlements are planned.

 

Israel’s West Bank settler population grew nearly 3%. Supporters say Gaza war could give new push

JERUSALEM (AP) — The population of Israeli settlers in the occupied West Bank grew nearly 3% in 2023, according to a new report based on population statistics from the Israeli government.

The report, released Sunday by the pro-settler group WestBankJewishPopulationStats.com, found the settler population jumped to 517,407 as of Dec. 31, from 502,991 a year earlier.

The settler population has grown over 15% in the last five years, the report said. Last year, it passed the half-million mark, a major threshold.

This year’s report predicted “accelerated growth” in the coming years, claiming the Oct. 7 Hamas attack on southern Israel, which triggered the current war in Gaza, persuaded many Israelis who were formerly opposed to settlement-building on occupied land to change positions.

“Serious cracks have indeed developed in the wall of opposition to Jewish settlement of the West Bank,” it said.

Israel captured the West Bank, east Jerusalem and Gaza Strip in the 1967 Mideast war. The Palestinians seek all three areas for an independent state.

The international community overwhelmingly considers Israel’s settlements to be illegal and obstacles to peace by occupying land the Palestinians seek for their state. Israel considers the West Bank to be “disputed” and says the territory’s fate should be decided in negotiations. The Biden administration recently sanctioned four settlers for violence against Palestinians and activists in the West Bank.

The report projected that if the growth rate over the past five years continues, the settler population in the West Bank will exceed 600,000 before 2030.

The report did not include population figures for east Jerusalem, where more than 200,000 Israelis live in settlements that Israel considers to be neighborhoods of its capital. The Palestinians claim east Jerusalem as their would-be capital.

Israel’s government is dominated by settler leaders and supporters. The Israeli watchdog group Terrestrial Jerusalem says that since the start of Israel’s war in Gaza on Oct. 7, three settlement plans were either approved or are about to be approved in east Jerusalem.

Terrestrial Jerusalem called the speed of settlement approval processes over the last few months “frenetic.”

The report comes as a spasm of violence grips the West Bank.

Since the Hamas attack on Oct. 7, Israel has held the West Bank under a tight grip — limiting movement and conducting frequent raids on what it says are militant targets.

Palestinian health officials say 391 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli fire in the West Bank during that period. Most have been killed in clashes with Israeli forces. But the Israeli rights group Yesh Din says settlers shot and killed nine Palestinians in just the first month and a half of the war, among 225 incidents of Israeli civilian violence the group documented during that time.

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23 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I don't get it either because the Israeli government and settlers are doing well enough on their own to continue ramping up hatred.

For example, the speed at which settlers are colonizing the West Bank is accelerating. For those who pretend to think that Israel just wants to be left alone in peace and that Palestinians are the real problem, look no further than how people are actually voting with their feet by attempting to occupy the land "from the river to the sea" as three NEW settlements are planned.

 

Israel’s West Bank settler population grew nearly 3%. Supporters say Gaza war could give new push

JERUSALEM (AP) — The population of Israeli settlers in the occupied West Bank grew nearly 3% in 2023, according to a new report based on population statistics from the Israeli government.

The report, released Sunday by the pro-settler group WestBankJewishPopulationStats.com, found the settler population jumped to 517,407 as of Dec. 31, from 502,991 a year earlier.

The settler population has grown over 15% in the last five years, the report said. Last year, it passed the half-million mark, a major threshold.

This year’s report predicted “accelerated growth” in the coming years, claiming the Oct. 7 Hamas attack on southern Israel, which triggered the current war in Gaza, persuaded many Israelis who were formerly opposed to settlement-building on occupied land to change positions.

“Serious cracks have indeed developed in the wall of opposition to Jewish settlement of the West Bank,” it said.

Israel captured the West Bank, east Jerusalem and Gaza Strip in the 1967 Mideast war. The Palestinians seek all three areas for an independent state.

The international community overwhelmingly considers Israel’s settlements to be illegal and obstacles to peace by occupying land the Palestinians seek for their state. Israel considers the West Bank to be “disputed” and says the territory’s fate should be decided in negotiations. The Biden administration recently sanctioned four settlers for violence against Palestinians and activists in the West Bank.

The report projected that if the growth rate over the past five years continues, the settler population in the West Bank will exceed 600,000 before 2030.

The report did not include population figures for east Jerusalem, where more than 200,000 Israelis live in settlements that Israel considers to be neighborhoods of its capital. The Palestinians claim east Jerusalem as their would-be capital.

Israel’s government is dominated by settler leaders and supporters. The Israeli watchdog group Terrestrial Jerusalem says that since the start of Israel’s war in Gaza on Oct. 7, three settlement plans were either approved or are about to be approved in east Jerusalem.

Terrestrial Jerusalem called the speed of settlement approval processes over the last few months “frenetic.”

The report comes as a spasm of violence grips the West Bank.

Since the Hamas attack on Oct. 7, Israel has held the West Bank under a tight grip — limiting movement and conducting frequent raids on what it says are militant targets.

Palestinian health officials say 391 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli fire in the West Bank during that period. Most have been killed in clashes with Israeli forces. But the Israeli rights group Yesh Din says settlers shot and killed nine Palestinians in just the first month and a half of the war, among 225 incidents of Israeli civilian violence the group documented during that time.

What do they call that where you keep doing the same thing, while expecting different results?  It's on the tip of my tongue...

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2 hours ago, Skipper said:

This is why nobody posts in this thread.  It's turned into a group think circle jerk where any statement other than "Fuck Israel" is met with responses like this. 

This thread has not been even remotely pro Gaza. Thats absolutely fiction.

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1 hour ago, DixonHur said:

If you can't see the difference between Nazi Germany/Imperial Japan, and Gaza, there's no helping you.

You can't help me.

But it's not for the reasons you think.

1 hour ago, BurgleBro said:

 

Seemingly so.  My arm chair opinion is that this will backfire far beyond their worst expectations. 

Maybe.  I have no idea. 

Bibi looks like he's going to do his thing and remind all Jews that the world has been pretty merciless when dealing with them.  He's not trying to be anyone's friend.  Here's some light reading: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/voyage-of-the-st-louis

And since my first post on this thread in some time seems to have generated some reactions, I'm not saying I agree with what is going on or Bibi is a good leader in any respect.  Just pointing out what I see.  

Edited by Bullneck
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27 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

What a fucked up shitty perspective. 

Talk to Bibi then.  I don't have a dog in this fight.  Just pointing out what has happened and what will happen.

59 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

They're not a threat anymore because we removed their belligerents from power.

That, and we killed anyone who thought fighting was a good idea.

 

Edited by Bullneck
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Why did Hamas enact 10-7?

Hamas gets a lot of funding (and most of its ordnance) from Iran. Iran is working a lot of projects (countering SA, taking control of waterways, supporting Russia in Ukraine, who knows what in Syria). They’re getting regional blowback. There’s nothing that works to pull all the regional militants together, like a good fight with Israel.  
 
Sorry Gazans. You thought this was going to be about you. You’re there to serve Teheran’s needs. 

Edited by statsman
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1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

So I just looked back, and on the same fucking day of the 2nd post you screenshotted, I made multiple posts pointing out that Hamas' deliberate targeting of civilians was wrong, including this one:

image.thumb.png.14b5b2a43f89b959766ac272c5cc99ff.png

I'm struggling to see the supposed inconsistencies of my position.

I stand corrected. 

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1 hour ago, Bullneck said:

This is Bibi's strategy.  

He's going to beat Gaza to death, and even if they live they'll never forget how bad it was and they'll never do anything to repeat it.

Want to know why Germany and Japan aren't a threat anymore?

The 1.2 million Palestinians stuck in Rafah who are about to get mowed down like fish in a barrel aren't the ones who committed 10/7. Hamas has shown time and time again that they are not concerned with Gaza civilians, that's not their prerogative, and mowing down civilians isn't going to stop terrorism, because by definition, terrorists don't give a shit. The most basic difference with Germany and Japan have already been stated, and is obvious to anyone who gives it a modicum of thought. 

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3 minutes ago, statsman said:

Why did Hamas enact 10-7?

Hamas gets a lot of funding (and most of its ordnance) from Iran. Iran is working a lot of projects (countering SA, taking control of waterways, supporting Russia in Ukraine, who knows what in Syria). They’re getting regional blowback. There’s nothing that works to pull all the regional militants together, like a good fight with Israel.  
 
Sorry Gazans. You thought this was going to be about you. You’re there to serve Teheran’s needs. 

Because they're terrorists, full stop. Their intent was to terrorize. The other stuff is part of the bigger picture, but Gaza resident's are caught in the crossfire, and it's not antisemitic to think Israel's disproportionate response it's wrong, evil, and a war crime. Bibi's intent is not to wipe out the terrorists, it's the opposite, to create more of them so that they can always use "security" as a reason to oppress and eventually take over Gaza and the West Bank. 

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I’m circling back to the Iran thing. 
 
Anyone want to argue that the Islamic Republic isn’t anti-Semitic?

Iran shares no border with Israel. They have no economic or diplomatic relationship. Yet, Iran has been using its IRG to kill Jews since the ‘80s, and not just in Israel. They’ll kill senior Jewish Argentinians, they’ll kill any they can, wherever. 
 
Which means- Israel has decided Iran cannot have nukes. To Israel, a nuclear armed Iran is an existential threat, because those motherfuckers will use them. They’ve displayed with Hezbollah and Hamas that they’ll launch missiles at Israel indiscriminately, from the north and the south. This decision by Israel has made the study of physics, in Iran, a very dangerous curriculum, because Israel will murder Iranian atomic scientists. 
 
Iran is just loving all this shit going on. 

Edited by statsman
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3 hours ago, 'stache said:

It's infuriating that, even if Biden wanted to flat out call Israel war criminals, he is completely hamstrung by the overwhelming majority view of voters in this country that think Palestinian = Muslim = Terrorists = "they want to exterminate the Jews." That's just how it is, a temporary ceasefire is all that can be accomplished.

We’ve expedited arms shipments under emergency provisions. We continue to drop more arms into the situation. A ceasefire would be one of the best short term outcomes, but we could maybe also consider just not sending more weapons that will used by Israel to execute their ethnic cleaning operation. The reality is that we are increasing complicit in what is going down in Gaza. 

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25 minutes ago, 'stache said:

The 1.2 million Palestinians stuck in Rafah who are about to get mowed down like fish in a barrel aren't the ones who committed 10/7. Hamas has shown time and time again that they are not concerned with Gaza civilians, that's not their prerogative, and mowing down civilians isn't going to stop terrorism, because by definition, terrorists don't give a shit. The most basic difference with Germany and Japan have already been stated, and is obvious to anyone who gives it a modicum of thought. 

Is this aimed at me?  

Yes, I know a war crime when I see one.  That doesn't stop war crimes.

Pages and pages ago someone said 10/7 was like a Comanche raid.  It was things like Comanche raids that gave rise to sayings like, "The only good Indian is a dead Indian."  Were white settlers right or wrong for taking people's land?  We would have to say that's wrong, correct?

Again, I'm just observing what I'm seeing.  I don't have a dog in the fight.  Don't direct your anger or helplessness my way.  

Edited by Bullneck
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44 minutes ago, statsman said:

Hamas gets a lot of funding (and most of its ordnance) from Iran. 

I'm not going to argue or deny that the Palestinians have been used as pawns, but I guess you don't recall the article I posted a couple of weeks ago about how Israeli intelligence, itself, says Hamas has been getting a whole shitload of its bomb-making material from the tons of unexploded ordinance that the IDF has fired on them to enforce the blockade on Gaza.

A refresher:

Spoiler

Where Is Hamas Getting Its Weapons? Increasingly, From Israel.
The very weapons that Israeli forces have used to enforce a blockade of Gaza are now being used against them.

Israeli military and intelligence officials have concluded that a significant number of weapons used by Hamas in the Oct. 7 attacks and in the war in Gaza came from an unlikely source: the Israeli military itself.

For years, analysts have pointed to underground smuggling routes to explain how Hamas stayed so heavily armed despite an Israeli military blockade of the Gaza Strip. But recent intelligence has shown the extent to which Hamas has been able to build many of its rockets and anti-tank weaponry out of the thousands of munitions that failed to detonate when Israel lobbed them into Gaza, according to weapons experts and Israeli and Western intelligence officials. Hamas is also arming its fighters with weapons stolen from Israeli military bases.

Intelligence gathered during months of fighting revealed that, just as the Israeli authorities misjudged Hamas’s intentions before Oct. 7, they also underestimated its ability to obtain arms.

What is clear now is that the very weapons that Israeli forces have used to enforce a blockade of Gaza over the past 17 years are now being used against them. Israeli and American military explosives have enabled Hamas to shower Israel with rockets and, for the first time, invade Israeli towns from Gaza.

“Unexploded ordnance is a main source of explosives for Hamas,” said Michael Cardash, the former deputy head of the Israeli National Police Bomb Disposal Division and an Israeli police consultant. “They are cutting open bombs from Israel, artillery bombs from Israel, and a lot of them are being used, of course, and repurposed for their explosives and rockets.”

Weapons experts say that roughly 10 percent of munitions typically fail to detonate, but in Israel’s case, the figure could be higher. Israel’s arsenal includes Vietnam-era missiles, long discontinued by the United States and other military powers. The failure rate on some of those missiles could be as high as 15 percent, said one Israeli intelligence officer who, like others interviewed for this article, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence matters.

By either count, years of sporadic bombing and the recent bombardment of Gaza have littered the area with thousands of tons of unexploded ordnance just waiting to be reused. One 750-pound bomb that fails to detonate can become hundreds of missiles or rockets.

Hamas did not respond to messages seeking comment. The Israeli military said in a statement that it was committed to dismantling Hamas but did not answer specific questions about the group’s weapons.

Israeli officials knew before the October attacks that Hamas could salvage some Israeli-made weapons, but the scope has startled weapons experts and diplomats alike.

Israeli authorities also knew that their armories were vulnerable to theft. A military report from early last year noted that thousands of bullets and hundreds of guns and grenades had been stolen from poorly guarded bases.

From there, the report said, some made their way to the West Bank, and others to Gaza by way of Sinai. But the report focused on military security. The consequences were treated almost as an afterthought: “We are fueling our enemies with our own weapons,” read one line of the report, which was viewed by The New York Times.

The consequences became apparent on Oct. 7. Hours after Hamas breached the border, four Israeli soldiers discovered the body of a Hamas gunman who was killed outside the Re’im military base. Hebrew writing was visible on a grenade on his belt, said one of the soldiers, who recognized it as a bulletproof Israeli grenade, a recent model. Other Hamas fighters overran the base, and Israeli military officials say some weapons were looted and returned to Gaza.

A few miles away, members of an Israeli forensic team collected one of the 5,000 rockets fired by Hamas that day. Examining the rocket, they discovered that its military-grade explosives had most likely come from an unexploded Israeli missile fired into Gaza during a previous war, according to an Israeli intelligence officer.

The Oct. 7 attacks showcased the patchwork arsenal that Hamas had stitched together. It included Iranian-made attack drones and North Korean-made rocket launchers, the types of weapons that Hamas is known to smuggle into Gaza through tunnels. Iran remains a major source of Hamas’s money and weapons.

But other weapons, like anti-tank explosives, RPG warheads, thermobaric grenades and improvised devices, were repurposed Israeli arms, according to Hamas videos and remnants uncovered by Israel.

Rockets and missiles require huge quantities of explosive material, which officials say is the most difficult item to smuggle into Gaza.

Yet Hamas fired so many rockets and missiles on Oct. 7 that Israel’s Iron Dome air-defense system could not keep up. Rockets struck towns, cities and military bases, giving cover to the militants who stormed into Israel. One rocket hit a military base believed to house part of Israel’s nuclear missile program.

Hamas once relied on material like fertilizer and powdered sugar — which, pound for pound, are not as powerful as military-grade explosives — to build rockets. But since 2007, Israel has enforced a strict blockade, restricting the import of goods, including electronics and computer equipment, that could be used to make weapons.

That blockade and a crackdown on smuggling tunnels leading into and out of Gaza forced Hamas to get creative.

Its manufacturing abilities are now sophisticated enough to saw into the warheads of bombs weighing up to 2,000 pounds, to harvest the explosives and to repurpose them.

“They have a military industry in Gaza. Some of it is above ground, some of it is below ground, and they are able to manufacture a lot of what they need,” said Eyal Hulata, who served as Israel’s national security adviser and head of its National Security Council before stepping down early last year.

One Western military official said that most of the explosives that Hamas is using in its war with Israel appear to have been manufactured using unexploded Israeli-launched munitions. One example, the official said, was an explosive booby trap that killed 10 Israeli soldiers in December.

The military wing of Hamas, the Qassam Brigades, has flaunted its manufacturing abilities for years. After a war in 2014 with Israel, it established engineering teams to collect unexploded munitions like howitzer rounds and American-made MK-84 bombs.

These teams work with the police’s explosive ordnance-disposal units, allowing people to safely return to their homes. They also help Hamas gear up for the next war.

“Our strategy aimed to repurpose these pieces, turning this crisis into an opportunity,” a Qassam Brigades commander told Al Jazeera in 2020.

Qassam’s media arm has released videos in recent years showing exactly what they were doing: sawing into warheads, scooping out explosive material — usually a powder — and melting it down to reuse.

In 2019, Qassam commandos discovered hundreds of munitions on two World War I-era British military vessels that had sunk off the coast of Gaza a century earlier. The discovery, Qassam boasted, allowed it to make hundreds of new rockets.

Early in the current war, a Qassam video showed militants assembling Yassin 105 rockets in a sunless manufacturing facility.

“The most essential way for Hamas to obtain weaponry is through domestic manufacture,” said Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib, a Middle East policy analyst who grew up in Gaza. “It’s just a tweak of chemistry and you can make pretty much whatever you want.”

Israel restricts the mass importation of construction materials that can be used to build rockets and other weapons. But each new round of fighting leaves behind neighborhoods of rubble from which militants can pluck pipes, concrete and other valuable material, Mr. Alkhatib said.

Hamas cannot manufacture everything. Some things are easier to buy from the black market and smuggle into Gaza. Sinai, the largely uninhabited desert region between Israel, Egypt and the Gaza Strip, remains a hub for arms smuggling. Weapons from conflicts in Libya, Eritrea and Afghanistan have been discovered in Sinai, according to Israeli intelligence assessments.

According to two Israeli intelligence officials, at least a dozen small tunnels were still running between Gaza and Egypt before Oct. 7. A spokesman for the Egyptian government said its military had done its part to shut down tunnels on its side of the border. “Many of the weapons currently inside the Gaza Strip are the result of smuggling from within Israel,” the spokesman said in an email.

But the besieged streets of Gaza itself are increasingly a source of weapons.

Israel estimates that it has conducted at least 22,000 strikes on Gaza since Oct. 7. Each often involves multiple rounds, meaning tens of thousands of munitions have likely been dropped or fired — and thousands failed to detonate.

“Artillery, hand grenades, other munitions — tens of thousands of unexploded ordnance will be left after this war,” said Charles Birch, the head of the U.N. Mine Action Service in Gaza. These “are like a free gift to Hamas.”

This gets to my main criticism in all of this, which is that the draconian actions of Israeli far-right policies, led by Netanyahu for the last 30 years, have been wholly counterproductive to peace. Yes, Hamas is to blame on the other side of that, but they wouldn't have the military or political power that they do have if it weren't for the shit that the Israeli government has been doing since the West Bank and Gaza Strip were first illegally occupied.

 

Now, since we're comparing WW2 Germany to the Gaza Strip, we can do a pretty simple calculation here.

It's estimated approximately 400,000 German civilians were killed in WW2. This is from a pre-war population of about 69,000,000. That's 0.6% of the population.

It's estimated approximately 20,000 Palestinian civilians, not including 9,000 Hamas fighters, have been killed in this war. This is from a pre-war population of about 2,000,000. That's ALREADY 1.0% of the population.

 

Edited by bolverk
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3 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

Is this aimed at me?  

Yes, I know a war crime when I see one.  That doesn't stop war crimes.

Pages and pages ago someone said 10/7 was like a Comanche raid.  It was things like Comanche raids that gave rise to sayings like, "The only good Indian is a dead Indian."  Were white settlers right or wrong for taking people's land?  We would have to say that's wrong, correct?

Again, I'm just observing what I'm seeing.  I don't have a dog in the fight.  Don't direct your anger or helplessness my way.  

I disagree with your comment that Bibi's strategy is "to beat Gaza to death, and even if they live they'll never forget how bad it was and they'll never do anything to repeat it."

I don't think deterrence has anything to do with his actions. He knows he's not killing Hamas but civilians, and he knows that nothing he's doing is going to dissuade Hamas from being terrorists in the future. My proposition is that he knows damn well he's creating new terrorists with every bomb and that justifies his attempts to either exterminate or remove all Palestinians, or at a minimum, to keep them oppressed under the guise of "security."

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1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

It will.  It doesn't even require complex thinking.

Just ask yourself "if I was a Palestinian resident of Gaza, after the events of the past months, what would I want to do regarding Israel?"  If your answer isn't "lash out to cause as much pain as possible wherever possible against anyone remotely associated with or supporting Israel," you are lying.  Bibi's plan might as well be titled "How to Create Generations of Terrorists to replace the few Terrorists that You Just Killed, and Then Some."

It's the same type of error we make when we assume a show of American force will cow any opponent. We'll bomb 'em like crazy and pelt them with missiles. They'll be scared shitless.

No. They're as brave as we are. They will become angry at whomever killed their sons, brothers, friends, daughters, or countrymen. They will want revenge and to fight.

One thing Israel doesn't have to sweat out compared to Japan and Germany, no big alliance of America and Europe is going to lift a finger.

I can't even read about this shit anymore.

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7 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

Is this aimed at me?  

Yes, I know a war crime when I see one.  That doesn't stop war crimes.

Pages and pages ago someone said 10/7 was like a Comanche raid.  It was things like Comanche raids that gave rise to sayings like, "The only good Indian is a dead Indian."  Were white settlers right or wrong for taking people's land?  We would have to say that's wrong, correct?

Again, I'm just observing what I'm seeing.  I don't have a dog in the fight.  Don't direct your anger or helplessness my way.  

The displacement and subjugation of America's indigenous population began way before the Comanches, and they weren't the only tribe targeted. The same can easily be said of the Palestinians and their Hamas "tribe".

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The war has brought unprecedented destruction to the Gaza Strip, with more than 28,000 people killed, more than 70% of them women and minors, according to local health officials. Vast swaths of the territory have been flattened by Israel’s offensive, around 80% of the population has been displaced and a humanitarian catastrophe has pushed more than a quarter of the population toward starvation.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-02-13-2024-1a0509346f4725ed40d1422808fed076

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11 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I disagree with your comment that Bibi's strategy is "to beat Gaza to death, and even if they live they'll never forget how bad it was and they'll never do anything to repeat it."

I don't think deterrence has anything to do with his actions. He knows he's not killing Hamas but civilians, and he knows that nothing he's doing is going to dissuade Hamas from being terrorists in the future. My proposition is that he knows damn well he's creating new terrorists with every bomb and that justifies his attempts to either exterminate or remove all Palestinians, or at a minimum, to keep them oppressed under the guise of "security."

Bibi's end result has nothing to do with the safety of Israel, and everything to do with staying out of prison. Everything they're doing must be viewed through that lens.

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1 hour ago, Bullneck said:

Talk to Bibi then.  I don't have a dog in this fight.  Just pointing out what has happened and what will happen.

That, and we killed anyone who thought fighting was a good idea.

Again, entirely false.  A metric shitton of German and Japanese combat veterans survived the war and simply rejoined civil society after the war.  That's a key difference between fighting an organized nation state vs. a terrorist movement.  German soldiers received orders, from their superiors, to lay down their arms.  They pretty much all did so.  Even the same for the Japanese, in spite of the stories of Japanese holdouts (which did exist).  So, NO, we did not defeat the Nazis or Imperial Japanese by "killing anyone who thought fighting was a good idea."  We did....the exact opposite -- we achieved a solution that put an end to the killing (surrender).

Bibi is trying to keep forever war, because then he stay in forever office, stay out of forever prison, and eventually achieve his lifelong goal, forever extermination of the Palestinian people.  There's not a single way in which Bibi is not a shitty human being, and he's fast-tracking his induction into the "shittiest murderiest world leaders" hall of fame.  The irony of Israel becoming the monster it claims to stand as a bulwark against is not lost on anyone who is actually paying attention.

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1 hour ago, Bullneck said:

Pages and pages ago someone said 10/7 was like a Comanche raid.  It was things like Comanche raids that gave rise to sayings like, "The only good Indian is a dead Indian."  Were white settlers right or wrong for taking people's land?  We would have to say that's wrong, correct?

I posted that. And you really missed the point.

And yes, Europeans were fucking wrong to steal the natives’ land. Is that even a question?

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4 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

But at least for the time being, it’s war, not genocide.

There are different kinds of war and not all combatants are on equal moral footing. Just saying “War is hell, shit happens” doesn’t address the issue. It’s a thought-terminating cliche at best.

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It’s hard to see a military objective for going into Raffah and what they want to accomplish. It’s just pushing civilians around. 
 

WWII doesn’t hold here because of the lack of a plan for the day after. Germany and Japan were occupied.  The occupying forces provided security and order and began returning civilians to their homes and began ferreting out the Nazis that needed to go from the people who were going to rebuild. If you don’t like that analogy, then IFOR and SFOR in Bosnia provided a similar framework with the High Rep. 

The issue is that Israel has no credibility or ability or desire to do this. But it’s what’s needed, Gaza does actually need to be occupied for a time, there needs to be a de-Hamasification, and new structures implemented.  This is where Israel fucked up with not supporting a state and then giving this job to partners with credibility. 

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41 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It’s hard to see a military objective for going into Raffah and what they want to accomplish. It’s just pushing civilians around. 
 

WWII doesn’t hold here because of the lack of a plan for the day after. Germany and Japan were occupied.  The occupying forces provided security and order and began returning civilians to their homes and began ferreting out the Nazis that needed to go from the people who were going to rebuild. If you don’t like that analogy, then IFOR and SFOR in Bosnia provided a similar framework with the High Rep. 

The issue is that Israel has no credibility or ability or desire to do this. But it’s what’s needed, Gaza does actually need to be occupied for a time, there needs to be a de-Hamasification, and new structures implemented.  This is where Israel fucked up with not supporting a state and then giving this job to partners with credibility. 

But, … Raffah is where Hamas was holding hostages. 
 
Thats how Hamas operates. For all the talk about the need for surgical strikes, Hamas looks for the population centers and sets base there. Because, Hamas really wants the Israelis to have to kill a bunch of civilians in order to get to them. 
 
As for a day after idea- who does have the credibility to manage Gaza? 

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