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12 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

I think you know and you'll see a lot of shitty people cheering it on.

The only cheering I have seen thus far is for Hamas.  To the remarkable contrary, the comments from Israel, including from people with family members currently (if they are lucky alive and) held hostage by Hamas, has been almost uniformly empathetic toward Gaza's civilian population.

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15 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I’ve never once denied atrocities. I said “very solider.” So you think every soldier in Israel is an evil motherfucker? I don’t. I also don’t think every Palestinian is an evil motherfucker, but the non ent ones in Gaza sure as shit are used as human shields.

 

41 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

This is the exact same straw man you have repeatedly used in this thread, when you tell people “you don’t think you’re advocating for the genocide of Palestinians but that’s what you’re doing” to paraphrase your earlier posts/stances. 
 

and speaking of straw men and putting words in people’s mouths, you can take your second paragraph and fuck right the hell off. You legit think Israeli soldiers are going to giggle while sniping children? So you just assume they’re equally horrible folks at the start as Hamas. That’s telling. And That is bullshit. And also fuck you for what is essentially a personal attack on me. I like you as a poster generally, and I disagree with your takes here and you basically accuse me of reveling in child death and drinking baby blood. Get all the way fucked, you should fucking apologize. 
 

you keep saying no one is saying Israel can’t respond and defend themselves, but you shit all over them doing so, and you offer no suggestions for how they should accomplish a reprisal, because no one can. Maybe a strongly worded letter? Hamas uses their civilians as shields because they don’t give a fuck about them, only killing Jews, per their charter. Israel says “evacuate north Gaza” and critics say “that’s forced migration!” Everything they do by certain people is framed as an excuse for genocide. But they didn’t ask for a thousand of their children and spouses to get killed and abducted on Saturday. 

Confused Harry Potter GIF

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@BrickHorn I read an interesting essay and thought of you and @longhornmatt. It's superficially around the atrocity propaganda and social, cultural prejudice and refers to The paper, by psychologists Christian S. Crandall and Amy Eshleman, is: “A Justification-Suppression Model of the Expression and Experience of Prejudice.” https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~schaller/Psyc590Readings/CrandallEshleman2003.pdf?

 It's a bid of an aside, so I'll just spoiler it for anyone interested in reading it below. The part that stuck out to me though I'll quote below:

Quote

 

Even people who are generally committed to egalitarian goals have ample material to find victim-blaming justifications. The many children in Israel and Gaza who have died or who will die can’t possibly be responsible for any of this. And yet, a “Well, what did they expect?” attitude was pervasive in the few minutes I spent scrolling X. So, to get back to the original question: Do those social media posts matter? 

Based on the Crandall and Eshleman framework, I think they do. If social norms appear to justify violence against a group, a whole lot of latent prejudice is going to come out of the woodwork at once. Jay Van Bavel, a professor of psychology and neural science at NYU, put it succinctly:

“Genuine prejudices are often restrained by values and norms, until the situation allows people to justify their expression. …This is why it's crucial not to openly justify or rationalize violence against other groups. People who were (secretly) prejudiced all long will see this as a justification to express their own virulent beliefs, which can lead to mass discrimination or violence.”

Van Bavel referenced another study (https://www.stoppestennu.nl/sites/default/files/uploads/social_norms_and_the_expression_and_suppression_of_prejudice_the_struggle_for_internalization.pdf) which found that social norms were strong predictors of individuals’ expressions of prejudice. In that work, the people who worked hard to suppress their own prejudices were the most influenced by social norms, and would express strong prejudice when it seemed socially acceptable.

Is this Justification-Suppression Model view of the world depressing? Perhaps, in that it says that there are massive aquifers of prejudice bubbling just below our collective surface. But I find it hopeful. It suggests that effort matters, and practice matters, and individual values matter, and that social norms can prevent prejudicial behavior, even when prejudice is common.

 

Spoiler

Does it matter what we post on social media in the wake of atrocities?

I don’t tend to have hot takes about news. As Adam Grant noted this week, some of us are slow, and private, in formulating our thoughts. I think, for nearly everyone for nearly all events, it is ok not to post a take at all, or even to have one succinct enough to post.

I have been scarce on social media for a while now, but when I took a look at X (the erstwhile Twitter) in the wake of the massacre in Israel, the first content that the algorithmic “for you” feed presented to me included justifications — and even some outright celebrations — of horrific civilian deaths in Israel. I expect, if I check back soon, the algorithm will be ready for me with posts making light of civilian deaths in Gaza. Does it matter?

In the early days of this newsletter, I occasionally used it to try to process some of my own thoughts about current events. Not even to come to conclusions, necessarily, but to turn to research to try to find something more useful for my thinking than what I was getting from the news and social media. To do that, I would try to come up with a specific question, and begin to investigate it. (This post, regarding the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan, was an early example.)

I decided to do that again this week. My question was whether the reactions of the general public on social media to deaths in Israel and Gaza are important — aside from just being alternately heartening and painful to their target audiences. I certainly don’t purport to have a complete answer. But I started at “I don’t know,” and after reading an influential research paper about prejudice, my needle has moved in the “it probably matters” direction.

The paper, by psychologists Christian S. Crandall and Amy Eshleman, is: “A Justification-Suppression Model of the Expression and Experience of Prejudice.”

In it, Crandall and Eshleman are trying to make sense of a huge body of research on the prejudices that people express, whether on the basis of race, religion, sex, nationality, or simply negative feelings about employees at a competing business.

They point out that a wealth of research has shown that the expression of prejudice, even for a given individual, is not stable from moment to moment, and varies highly with the context. For example, people are more likely to act on stereotypes when they are stressed, tired, drunk, frustrated, distracted by a cognitive task, or after they’ve been insulted, even if the insult has nothing to do with the group targeted by their prejudice.

Crandall and Eshleman write:

“All of the theories we have reviewed can be reduced to the following structure. People acquire, early and firmly, prejudice toward racial out-groups. As cultural norms become increasingly negative toward straightforward prejudice, and as people mature, they become motivated and skilled at suppressing many of their prejudices. A simple equation summarizes these two-factor theories of prejudice:

prejudice + suppression = expression.”

In other words, our latent prejudices are basic emotional reactions, honed over years of bonding with our own in-groups, but the expression of those implicit feelings is moderated by factors like our explicit values, our self-image, and the norms of our society. This moderation takes effort, especially at first, and especially if the prejudice is very strong. That is why, Crandall and Eshleman write, people in studies display more prejudice when they are mentally fatigued or overwhelmed; they don’t have as many cognitive resources available to engage in suppression, even when it fits with their values.

The paper reminded me of Nobel laureate Daniel Kahneman’s writing in his book, Thinking, Fast and Slow, about our brain’s so-called “System 1” and “System 2.” Kahneman writes:

“-System 1 operates automatically and quickly, with little or no effort and no sense of voluntary control.

-System 2 allocates attention to the effortful mental activities that demand it, including complex computations. The operations of System 2 are often associated with the subjective experience of agency, choice, and concentration.”

System 1 is very efficient for handling most of our daily activities, from understanding a simple sentence, to quickly interpreting social situations. System 2 steps in when you’re trying to park in a tight spot, evaluate a complicated logical argument, or monitor whether your own behavior is appropriate for a given situation — which might involve modifying your reflexive desires or initial instincts.

That sounds to me conceptually akin to what Crandall and Eshleman are explaining about prejudice: there’s a gut reaction, potentially followed by a more thoughtful moderation that yanks the reaction in line with our larger goals. Except, their model involves more than just suppression of prejudicial gut reactions. They call it the “Justification-Suppression Model” for a reason.

According to their framework, after the gut feeling of prejudice is moderated by suppression factors (self-image, values, norms, etc.), it is bolstered by justification factors — rationales to embrace the prejudice without guilt or shame, or any change in one’s self-image. Basically, the gut feeling goes into a stew along with the suppression and justification factors, and out comes the actual expression (or lack thereof) of prejudice.

Sometimes, the psychologists write, the very feeling of being encouraged to suppress prejudice becomes a justification for expressing more of it. They note that researchers have found, particularly in strongly prejudiced people, a sort of “rebound” effect, in which individuals made to suppress a prejudice may eventually rebel against that suppression, and experience very positive emotions (a release of tension) when they eventually let their prejudice emerge. Thus, they feel incentivized to express more prejudice.

But suppression can be maintained over the long-term, and the factors that help are pretty general. Practice apparently has an impact, as do social norms, and an individual’s commitment to egalitarian goals.

Justification factors are more idiosyncratic, and often involve stereotypes specific to the target group. One theme, though, according to Crandall and Eshleman, is that “We do not like people who harm themselves.” They reference work showing that we will often “find responsibility among those who are suffering that justifies prejudice and discrimination,” whether that pertains to people who smell bad, are out of work, or are victims of historical and social forces beyond their control.

That resonates with what I think is going on on social media. Even people who are generally committed to egalitarian goals have ample material to find victim-blaming justifications. The many children in Israel and Gaza who have died or who will die can’t possibly be responsible for any of this. And yet, a “Well, what did they expect?” attitude was pervasive in the few minutes I spent scrolling X. So, to get back to the original question: Do those social media posts matter? 

Based on the Crandall and Eshleman framework, I think they do. If social norms appear to justify violence against a group, a whole lot of latent prejudice is going to come out of the woodwork at once. Jay Van Bavel, a professor of psychology and neural science at NYU, put it succinctly:

“Genuine prejudices are often restrained by values and norms, until the situation allows people to justify their expression. …This is why it's crucial not to openly justify or rationalize violence against other groups. People who were (secretly) prejudiced all long will see this as a justification to express their own virulent beliefs, which can lead to mass discrimination or violence.”

Van Bavel referenced another study which found that social norms were strong predictors of individuals’ expressions of prejudice. In that work, the people who worked hard to suppress their own prejudices were the most influenced by social norms, and would express strong prejudice when it seemed socially acceptable.

Is this Justification-Suppression Model view of the world depressing? Perhaps, in that it says that there are massive aquifers of prejudice bubbling just below our collective surface. But I find it hopeful. It suggests that effort matters, and practice matters, and individual values matter, and that social norms can prevent prejudicial behavior, even when prejudice is common.

Like it or not, social media influences social norms. So if you do choose to post on social media, or to share a post, stop to think about the larger narrative it enforces. Hopefully, the narrative is that the harming of innocents is always a tragedy to be mourned, no matter who those innocents are.

 

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11 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Who’s saying Israel shouldn’t do anything? No one is making that argument 

No one is expressly making that argument. However, the arguments that have been made don't leave a lot of options other than not doing anything. It's like telling someone they are free to go to the other side of a river, but also telling them not to use the bridge and not to swim across. 

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13 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

I find it helpful to remind myself the difference between people vs organizations in this conflict. 

Israel government policy and actions are clear, and in many cases unacceptable. 

Hamas policy and actions are horrific and deserve immediate response. 

The beliefs and actions of “the majority” of Palestinian and Israeli citizens is less clear, as I’m sure it is for many.

That makes it impossible to take a strong stand for either side, at least it does for me. But, there’s zero doubt the attacks on Hamas are going to be historic, and they should be. 

Polling generally makes it clear that the average Palestinian and the average Israeli want peace with each other.

It's the psychos in charge of both countries that don't.

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2 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

No one is expressly making that argument. However, the arguments that have been made don't leave a lot of options other than not doing anything. It's like telling someone they are free to go to the other side of a river, but also telling them not to use the bridge and not to swim across. 

I think their job is probably to build a boat. I’m not saying that’s easy. It’s obviously not. But that should be the job.

There is some middle ground between mass migration or bombing and not doing anything. 

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16 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Michael Jordan took that personally

 

law and order crazy shit GIF

16 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

I find it helpful to remind myself the difference between people vs organizations in this conflict. 

Israel government policy and actions are clear, and in many cases unacceptable. 

Hamas policy and actions are horrific and deserve immediate response. 

The beliefs and actions of “the majority” of Palestinian and Israeli citizens is less clear, as I’m sure it is for many.

That makes it impossible to take a strong stand for either side, at least it does for me. But, there’s zero doubt the attacks on Hamas are going to be historic, and they should be. 

Well said

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2 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Nope.

Please. Offer up a suggestion. What should they do? Let me guess, it's not your responsibility to suggest anything, you're not an expert on the region? None of us are experts. But I'll tell you what, if there was a reasonable and likely suggestion that made sense, I bet we'd have all heard it by now form the US and Irsrael. There isn't one. |
I hope desperately there is one, and they find it, becuase what israel is doing is fucking EXACTLY what Hamas wants. They want Israel to invade, kill a bunch of poeple, create new Martyrs, and ensure this hatred exists for another generation or two. And Israel is going to fucking do it. 

1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

Confused Harry Potter GIF

Do you think every Israeli soldier is as fucked up and malicious as that guy? The 650k Isralies that headed back to Israel and have been called up to Military service? Are they all that guy, in your estimation? Because that's what you're implying. And if you believe that, fine, but then you're no different than other posters who insist that every Palestininan is the same as HAMAS, and that all Palestinians are the same as the invaders who killed and abducted Israelis. 

Both sides have, and continue to do awful fucking shit. I recognize that. You apologize for one, while ignoring the other. 

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4 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

No one is expressly making that argument. However, the arguments that have been made don't leave a lot of options other than not doing anything. It's like telling someone they are free to go to the other side of a river, but also telling them not to use the bridge and not to swim across. 

I mean, from my perspective people are just expressing their anguish at what's unfolding, and giving the rhetorical I hope they do the best they can to minimize collateral damage. I see no one saying anything that could be construed as instructive to Israel.

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I stand with Israel so long as it is respecting the human rights of civilians. That means Israel doesn't get to just shout "human shield" in bad faith while slaughtering innocent people. No, it's not justifiable if those civilians have offensive opinions or political leanings, either.

By the way, are they not just a little bit concerned that their own hostages could be killed by these indiscriminate bombings??

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2 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Please. Offer up a suggestion. What should they do? Let me guess, it's not your responsibility to suggest anything, you're not an expert on the region? None of us are experts. But I'll tell you what, if there was a reasonable and likely suggestion that made sense, I bet we'd have all heard it by now form the US and Irsrael. There isn't one. |
I hope desperately there is one, and they find it, becuase what israel is doing is fucking EXACTLY what Hamas wants. They want Israel to invade, kill a bunch of poeple, create new Martyrs, and ensure this hatred exists for another generation or two. And Israel is going to fucking do it. 

Do you think every Israeli soldier is as fucked up and malicious as that guy? The 650k Isralies that headed back to Israel and have been called up to Military service? Are they all that guy, in your estimation? Because that's what you're implying. And if you believe that, fine, but then you're no different than other posters who insist that every Palestininan is the same as HAMAS, and that all Palestinians are the same as the invaders who killed and abducted Israelis. 

Both sides have, and continue to do awful fucking shit. I recognize that. You apologize for one, while ignoring the other. 

Oh we’re doing this thing again lol.

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2 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I stand with Israel so long as it is respecting the human rights of civilians. That means Israel doesn't get to just shout "human shield" in bad faith while slaughtering innocent people. No, it's not justifiable if those civilians have offensive opinions or political leanings, either.

By the way, are they not just a little bit concerned that their own hostages could be killed by these indiscriminate bombings??

I think I saw reporting that already happened, the hostages I mean. I think though it was just Hamas claiming that so take it with a grain of salt. It’s just as likely, maybe more so, that they have been executed.

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1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

I stand with Israel so long as it is respecting the human rights of civilians. That means Israel doesn't get to just shout "human shield" in bad faith while slaughtering innocent people. No, it's not justifiable if those civilians have offensive opinions or political leanings, either.

By the way, are they not just a little bit concerned that their own hostages could be killed by these indiscriminate bombings??

My problem is this only comes up during conflicts and skirmishes (in this case likely all out war) and allows everyone to ignore Israel's conduct at all other times. It's unjust and it is no surprise whatsoever that terrorist factions arise out of the situation. But if I said that last part publicly, I'd be fired for being a genocidal anti-semite, or if I were at college, I'd be doxxed as hateful and supportive of terrorism. 

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5 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Polling generally makes it clear that the average Palestinian and the average Israeli want peace with each other.

It's the psychos in charge of both countries that don't.

I have gone down a polling arugment with Chainsaw. I cited a recent poll, and he cited a recent poll, and it wasn't clear the answer. Mine said more than 50% had a positive feeling of HAMAS. His said 70% want peace. That being said, we can certianly fucking agree that both ruling groups are fucking shit. 

You've accused me of being brainwashed by Western Media. What media should I be paying attention to that has this situation nailed?

 

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4 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Please. Offer up a suggestion. What should they do?

As an American, I think that we should first concern ourselves with what we do. A few thoughts, stop dumping endless arms and military funding into the region (including both Israel and Arab countries). That might be a good place to start. 

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4 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I stand with Israel so long as it is respecting the human rights of civilians. That means Israel doesn't get to just shout "human shield" in bad faith while slaughtering innocent people. No, it's not justifiable if those civilians have offensive opinions or political leanings, either.

By the way, are they not just a little bit concerned that their own hostages could be killed by these indiscriminate bombings??

Excellent, I agree wholeheartedly with your first paragraph. 

I haven't expressed this much, but I was thinking about this earlier, and my sad suspicion is that Bibi was written off the hostages as lost to further his offensive, and the anguish of the common Israeli. Because he's a piece of shit. If he cared about hostages, he wouldn't be bombing Gaza.

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6 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

what should Israel do that will deter future events, make every hostile nation around them second guess doing something similar themselves and project strength, and happen in a timely enough fashion that a ton of HAMAS pieces of shit won’t escape via their networks? I have no idea. I’m d not think anyone has an idea.which leads me back to my point; if everything above can’t be met to satisfaction, the answers seem to be,  “don’t do that.” Which may as well be don’t do anything. Which I view as an unlikely bordering on impossible reaction.

Here's the problem I have with that argument:

Everyone keeps asking "Well, what should Israel do in the wake of Hamas' actions?" While it's a valid question, and an important one to be sure, one of the problems surrounding this whole conflict is that the shoe is never on the other foot.

What I mean by that is no one ever asks "Well, what should Palestinians do in the wake of people being shot to shit or beaten every Ramadan/March of Return or their homes in the West Bank being taken away by some dipshit from Brooklyn, while some Kyle Rittenhouse ass non-military/police Israeli settler is standing there watching and laughing with his body armor and rifle because the Israeli government is still doing ethnic cleansing out in the open?" No one cares to ask that question, because the answer is always "deal with it or die" basically.

No one in the media ever, and I mean ever, brings on any Israeli official and takes them to task over their government's continuous and unjustifiable actions in the West Bank and Gaza, while they will happily bring any Palestinian on and scream "DO YOU CONDEMN?" in their face over and over again, as evidenced by the Palestinian ambassador's BBC interview.

4 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Do you think every Israeli soldier is as fucked up and malicious as that guy? The 650k Isralies that headed back to Israel and have been called up to Military service? Are they all that guy, in your estimation? Because that's what you're implying. And if you believe that, fine, but then you're no different than other posters who insist that every Palestininan is the same as HAMAS, and that all Palestinians are the same as the invaders who killed and abducted Israelis. 

Both sides have, and continue to do awful fucking shit. I recognize that. You apologize for one, while ignoring the other. 

Brother, no one said that. No one. You're literally just making it up in your head. I pointed out a specific instance as evidence that there is very little outcry when the shoe is on the other foot, from an atrocities standpoint. You responded by first just flat out denying that it happened at all, and then whatever this shit is.

Not a single damned person has apologized once for Hamas in this thread.

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2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

As an American, I think that we should first concern ourselves with what we do. A few thoughts, stop dumping endless arms and military funding into the region (including both Israel and Arab countries). That might be a good place to start. 

1.) Nice dodge.

2.) That's an interesting idea. But I don't think Hamas is getting their weapons from the United States. So doesn't this just fuck over Israel?

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Looks like the deadline is in about 30 minutes. I sure hope the elderly, the infirm, and all the children make it.

 

NYTimes article on some 500-600 US citizens stuck in the Gaza Strip with no way to get out.

Quote

 

On Friday, the Israel Defense Forces said civilians in the northern part of Gaza should evacuate to the south, “for their own safety and protection.”

“I feel like I’ve been abandoned by my country,” said Lena Beseiso, 57, who lives in Salt Lake City, Utah, and is caught in Gaza with her husband, two of her daughters and a 10-year-old grandson. “We’re American citizens and we’re not being treated as American citizens.”

John Kirby, a spokesman for the National Security Council, said that Israel’s blockade was for now preventing the American government from transporting its citizens out of Gaza. He said that the White House was in talks with Israel and Egypt about the safe passage of civilians out of Gaza, including Americans, but that no breakthrough had been reached.

“Right now, they — they can’t leave. So, we would have no physical means of permitting that transit out,” Mr. Kirby said during a press briefing on Thursday. “And so, that’s why we’re so actively having conversations with the Israelis and the Egyptians about a safe passage corridor so that people who want to leave can leave.”

U.S. officials estimated that 500 to 600 American citizens were in Gaza.

For now, there is nothing to do but wait and hope and pray. Ms. Beseiso and her family, who are in Gaza visiting relatives, tried to flee on Tuesday, she said, but the Israeli military bombed the Rafah crossing to Egypt while they were there, shuttering it. The family was told to return to Gaza for safety, and Ms. Beseiso is now sheltering in a building with her 87-year-old mother-in-law. The family has no water or electricity, she said.

 

 

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1 minute ago, SydneyCarton said:

1.) Nice dodge.

2.) That's an interesting idea. But I don't think Hamas is getting their weapons from the United States. So doesn't this just fuck over Israel?

It's not a dodge, its a recognition of what we can control directly wrt our role. Israel is extremely capable. They have the a substantial military industry (which we helped to fund/build). 

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3 minutes ago, F250 said:

When some people throw out phrases like "a population has to be responsible for its government" or quoting dumb shit kids say it sounds like they are justifying that Palestinian civilians do not qualify for basic humanitarian rights and should be treated no different than cockroaches.

Fucking a

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12 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

By the way, are they not just a little bit concerned that their own hostages could be killed by these indiscriminate bombings??

I heard an interview yesterday on NPR that mentioned that normally there is a public outcry in these situations for Israel to negotiate for the hostages but that doesn't seem to be the case this time. Emotions are so high that there appears to a general sentiment that the hostages are considered a causality of war.

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17 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I stand with Israel so long as it is respecting the human rights of civilians. That means Israel doesn't get to just shout "human shield" in bad faith while slaughtering innocent people. No, it's not justifiable if those civilians have offensive opinions or political leanings, either.

By the way, are they not just a little bit concerned that their own hostages could be killed by these indiscriminate bombings??

spacer.png

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29 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

The only cheering I have seen thus far is for Hamas.  To the remarkable contrary, the comments from Israel, including from people with family members currently (if they are lucky alive and) held hostage by Hamas, has been almost uniformly empathetic toward Gaza's civilian population.

If only Bibi and his cronies held that same empathy. You can be sure of one thing -- Bibi will choose the cruelest course of action.

 

17 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I stand with Israel so long as it is respecting the human rights of civilians. That means Israel doesn't get to just shout "human shield" in bad faith while slaughtering innocent people. No, it's not justifiable if those civilians have offensive opinions or political leanings, either.

By the way, are they not just a little bit concerned that their own hostages could be killed by these indiscriminate bombings??

Bibi likely doesn't give a shit because he is a piece of shit. I'm sure he views their deaths as a "necessary evil" that finally gives him the go-ahead to do what he wants to do -- level Gaza.

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17 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Here's the problem I have with that argument:

Everyone keeps asking "Well, what should Israel do in the wake of Hamas' actions?" While it's a valid question, and an important one to be sure, one of the problems surrounding this whole conflict is that the shoe is never on the other foot.

What I mean by that is no one ever asks "Well, what should Palestinians do in the wake of people being shot to shit or beaten every Ramadan/March of Return or their homes in the West Bank being taken away by some dipshit from Brooklyn, while some Kyle Rittenhouse ass non-military/police Israeli settler is standing there watching and laughing with his body armor and rifle because the Israeli government is still doing ethnic cleansing out in the open?" No one cares to ask that question, because the answer is always "deal with it or die" basically.

No one in the media ever, and I mean ever, brings on any Israeli official and takes them to task over their government's continuous and unjustifiable actions in the West Bank and Gaza, while they will happily bring any Palestinian on and scream "DO YOU CONDEMN?" in their face over and over again, as evidenced by the Palestinian ambassador's BBC interview.

So Media in general fucking sucks. Ok. Thanks to 9/11 and screeching evangelists here, and in Israel, no one wants to report fairly. You act like this is a hard fucking sell for me? Because it is not. You're talking about one of the many, fucked up, systemic issues of our culture, media, and the kind of thing that is out of control and probably unfixable in the short and medium term. you're talking about an injustice that spans decades, and European and American bias. you're talking about a fucked up big picture. No argument form me, I'd love a better, unbiased news media, we all know how fucked the world is right now with extremism fueled by the meida. I 100% agree with you.

But that's big picure that's fucked.  I'm talking about small picture, what does isreal do after last week RIGHT NOW? You're talking about how fucked up Climate Change is, and how it's ruinous and doesn't get proper and fair attention in our culture. I'm talking about the house that is on fire from a California wildfire. Just now. Just this instance. 

Quote

Brother, no one said that. No one. You're literally just making it up in your head. I pointed out a specific instance as evidence that there is very little outcry when the shoe is on the other foot, from an atrocities standpoint. You responded by first just flat out denying that it happened at all, and then whatever this shit is.

Not a single damned person has apologized once for Hamas in this thread.

I made the comment about Israeli soliders aren't giggling, and you AND Fresh Breath posted the same shit of an asshole Israeli sniper. yes, I hand't seen it before. Chalk it up to your paragraph and my response above. That being said, I have since clairifed that "EVERY SOLIDER" and you haven't addressed my statement, you're saying I'm making it up in my head. But I haven't seen you or her address the concept of how you feel about every military member being evil. You just posted a throwawy video of one guy, as if that proved it, and won't address it. That's not in my head ,and you're just NOW offering up clarification of what you were trying to illustrate, when previously you posted a link, used a meme to mock me, and after you called me a savage who enjoys watching people get dismembered. That failure of communication is on YOU. Because until your last post, it absolutely is no different than saying every isreli is evil and murderous. Which is what you are so incensed and eager to accuse me of regarding Palestinians.

Again, do you think EVERY solider is that guy in the video? I've got multiple days and and multiple posts on mulitple threads admitting Israel has oppressed and done horrible fucking shit, for decades, as well as ripping other motherfuckers for equatling all Palestinians for HAMAS. 

Yes, no one has apologized for Hamas, and they shouldn't. But some posters are more than happy to try and explain their actions. I can't explain anyone's fucking actions here. It's almost like the whole region is a fucking mess spanning decades and no one knows how to fix it. I'll add that organized religion is fucking stupid and these days generally seems like an excuse to hurt other people. 

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14 minutes ago, F250 said:

This. I don't think I have seen anyone here advocate Israel just ignore the attacks by Hamas. What many are questioning is the hyperfocus on the cause for Israeli retaliation and calling for the IDF to institute rules of engagement that adhere to international rules of war. Primarily the part about protecting civilians that are up shit creek without a paddle.

When some people throw out phrases like "a population has to be responsible for its government" or quoting dumb shit kids say it sounds like they are justifying that Palestinian civilians do not qualify for basic humanitarian rights and should be treated no different than cockroaches.

From my point of view, Israel is justified in waging war on Hamas. There isn't a need to the fan flames by dehumanizing Palestinians and Israel must implement rules of engagement and take every step necessary to avoid harming civilians. There is no need to reveal in the atrocities of the Hamas, that's for revenge porn fiends that get high off the thought of seeing mass uncontrolled violence.

The Office Thank You GIF

 

Michael gonna get a workout in this thread.

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1 minute ago, SydneyCarton said:

Yes, no one has apologized for Hamas, and they shouldn't. But some posters are more than happy to try and explain their actions. I can't explain anyone's fucking actions here. It's almost like the whole region is a fucking mess spanning decades and no one knows how to fix it.

This paragraph is literally just lamenting against the context of the situation.

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9 minutes ago, C-Man said:

Bibi likely doesn't give a shit because he is a piece of shit. I'm sure he views their deaths as a "necessary evil" that finally gives him the go-ahead to do what he wants to do -- level Gaza.

Yeah, he's a sociopath.  Sounds familiar.  He probably thinks hostages are "losers".

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7 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I'm not sure what you mean here, the context of the situation. But I'm lamenting fucking all of this shit. 

Why are you upset that posters are trying to explain the actions of Hamas? How else should people attempt to understand why this is happening?

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37 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

The only cheering I have seen thus far is for Hamas.  To the remarkable contrary, the comments from Israel, including from people with family members currently (if they are lucky alive and) held hostage by Hamas, has been almost uniformly empathetic toward Gaza's civilian population.

 

It's happened at least twice before, so I'm not sure why it wouldn't be happening now.

Quote

 

Israelis gather on hillsides to watch and cheer as military drops bombs on Gaza
People drink, snack and pose for selfies against a background of explosions as Palestinian death toll mounts in ongoing offensive

Israelis-watch-bombings-o-011.jpg?width=
As the sun begins to sink over the Mediterranean, groups of Israelis gather each evening on hilltops close to the Gaza border to cheer, whoop and whistle as bombs rain down on people in a hellish warzone a few miles away.

Old sofas, garden chairs, battered car seats and upturned crates provide seating for the spectators. On one hilltop, a swing has been attached to the branches of a pine tree, allowing its occupant to sway gently in the breeze. Some bring bottles of beer or soft drinks and snacks.

On Saturday, a group of men huddle around a shisha pipe. Nearly all hold up smartphones to record the explosions or to pose grinning, perhaps with thumbs up, for selfies against a backdrop of black smoke.

Despite reports that millions of Israelis are living in terror of Hamas rockets, they don't deter these hilltop war watchers whose proximity to Gaza puts them within range of the most rudimentary missiles. Some bring their children.

In the border town of Sderot, which has been struck by countless missiles from the Gaza Strip in recent years, one family gathers on a top-floor balcony, draped with an Israeli flag and banner of the army's legendary Golani Brigade. A house with a war view may even command a premium price these days.

An atmosphere of anticipatory excitement grows as dusk falls, in the expectation that Hamas militants will increase rocket fire after breaking their Ramadan fast, and the Israeli military will respond with force.

The thud of shellfire, flash of an explosion and pall of smoke are greeted with exclamations of approval. "What a beauty," says one appreciative spectator.

Shimrit Peretz, 19, has come with her off-duty soldier boyfriend, Raz Sason, whose army-issue assault rifle is slung across his shoulders.

"We come to look at the bombing," Peretz says, adding that this is their fourth visit to the hilltop. They plan to stay several hours: "It's interesting." The pair have brought a backpack filled with bottles of water and bags of crisps.

Peretz says that she doesn't worry about the Palestinian civilians caught in the bombing; Sason disagrees. Despite his concern for the innocents caught in the assault, the young conscript soldier wishes he was with his comrades across the border in Gaza. "I'd like to be going in, to help my country and help the soldiers inside," he says.

Given the dramatic views, media crews are coming to the area to cover the fighting. On a nearby hilltop, an ugly scene develops as a group of Israeli men threaten a photographer, accusing him of being a "leftist". We are warned against asking for interviews, as another cheer goes up.

 


Quote

 

Israelis Watch Bombs Drop on Gaza From Front-Row Seats
Israelis gathered on a hilltop outside the town of Sderot on Monday to watch the bombardment of Gaza.

Last Wednesday night, as he stood on a hilltop outside the Israeli town of Sderot and watched the bombardment of Gaza on the plain below, a Danish newspaper reporter snapped an iPhone photo of about a dozen locals who cheered on their military from plastic chairs while eating popcorn.

Allan Sorensen, a veteran Middle East correspondent for Denmark’s Kristeligt Dagblad, then uploaded the image to Twitter with a sardonic caption that described the macabre scene as “Sderot cinema.”

The image of the Israeli spectators was taken after 9 p.m. local time on Wednesday, the reporter said, about the same time that what was intended to be a “precision strike” from Israel’s military killed at least eight of their Palestinian neighbors, seated in similar plastic chairs at a beachside cafe in Gaza, waiting to watch the World Cup semifinal between Argentina and the Netherlands.

As his image reverberated around the social network, where it was shared more than 10,000 times, the reporter was surprised by the response. It was, he said in a telephone interview from Israel, “nothing new.” Similar scenes, of Israeli spectators gathered on the high ground above Gaza to view the destruction below, were documented in a Times of London article and a video report from Denmark’s TV2 during Operation Cast Lead in 2009.

Explaining that he has also previously witnessed Palestinians cheering news of bombings that killed Israelis, Mr. Sorensen said that in a war, “this is what happens.” Civilians and fighters on both sides, he said, “go through a process of dehumanizing the enemy.”

Despite the willingness of some residents to stand in the open watching the war unfold, Sderot is well within range of rockets launched by Islamist militants in Gaza and has been hit in recent days.

When he was a candidate for the American presidency in 2008, then-Senator Barack Obama visited the town and saluted “the brave citizens” of Sderot while standing in front of a collection of spent rockets that had been fired at them from Gaza. He was also presented with an “I Love Sderot” T-shirt that channeled the dark humor of the residents, with the image of a heart on its front pierced by a rocket.

While some partisans of Israel on Twitter accused the Danish reporter of fabrication, the same scene, captured in photographs by several other journalists in recent days, was also witnessed by Mr. Sorensen’s colleague Nikolaj Krak, who wrote: “The hill has been transformed into something that most closely resembles the front row of a reality war theater. It offers a direct view of the densely populated Gaza Strip. People have dragged camping chairs and sofas to the top of the hill. Several sit with crackling bags of popcorn, while others smoke hookahs and talk cheerfully.”

When the bombs find their targets, Mr. Krak reported, “cheers break out on the hill, followed by solid applause.”

Mr. Sorensen, who stressed that he has “a complete understanding of what the people of Sderot have been going through for 14 years,” attributed the particularly vitriolic response to his Twitter report to the climate in Israel since three young religious students were kidnapped and murdered in the occupied West Bank last month. The journalist called the “extreme incitement to violence from very right-wing Israeli groups unprecedented” in the many years he has been reporting from the region.

An Israeli blogger, David Sheen, reported that a far-right rally in Jerusalem on Monday was marked by calls to kill Arabs and send Jews opposed to the bombardment to Gaza.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Why are you upset that posters are trying to explain the actions of Hamas? How else should people attempt to understand why this is happening?

It feels to me that people don't like the explanation because it feels like a justification. Someone on the early days of this thing said it best, "don't confuse an explanation for a justification of why something happened".

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46 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

I think their job is probably to build a boat. I’m not saying that’s easy. It’s obviously not. But that should be the job.

There is some middle ground between mass migration or bombing and not doing anything. 

I'd argue that the implication hasn't been merely to build a boat, but to build one that has a bunch of holes in the bottom of it, moves very slowly, and may sink as soon as its placed in the water. Maybe Israel can win a war with Hamas blindfolded and with both hands tied behind its back, but I wouldn't call it a realistic option. 

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2 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Why are you upset that posters are trying to explain the actions of Hamas? How else should people attempt to understand why this is happening?

 

Because the Explaining in question oftentimes veers pretty close to...apologizing for Hamas. Which was pointed out to me, that no one was apologizing for Hamas. Lets look at a typical sentence strucutre I'm sure you're famliar with: "I'm not apologizing for Hamas, but....."

Lets analyize a similar sentence structure commonly seen on this partiuclarly forum and 100% denounced by regular cloak room posters, justifiably: "I'm not a racist, but...."

So, I guess you have an opporuntiy here. Why don't you explain, so we can all understand, the reasons so we can all understand Hamas forcibly entering the homes, parks, and public places of Israel and kidnapping and mudering their citizens, including women, children, and the elderly. Please, explain that to me. We all want to understand. 

I'm certainly admitting that Israel has done horrible shit, is currently run by horrible fucking people, and they're probably about to do exactly what Hamas wants and do the most horrible shit we've seen to date. 

And for the record, I'm not really upset that anyone tries to defend any side of this, or how we got here. But when I expressed a different opinion of what I think Israel will do next, even though I think it's a huge mistake, I was attacked form multiple sides and implicitly and explicitly called a piece of shit. 

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48 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

As an American, I think that we should first concern ourselves with what we do. A few thoughts, stop dumping endless arms and military funding into the region (including both Israel and Arab countries). That might be a good place to start. 

 

 

Yeahhhhh if only it was that simple

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1 minute ago, Tonesky said:

To paraphrase Cheeto, there are pieces of shit on both sides.

Yep. And all those pieces of shit are driving the bus there. None of us should lose sight of our humanity. That's how and why this situation is what it is. 

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2 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Yep. And all those pieces of shit are driving the bus there. None of us should lose sight of our humanity. That's how and why this situation is what it is. 

No shit. Apparently there are 5-600 American citizens trapped in Gaza right now, and there is nowhere to go. Pretty sure that's part of Bibi's collateral damage as well, I think he knows he can get away with it at this point. 

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1 hour ago, F250 said:

This. I don't think I have seen anyone here advocate Israel just ignore the attacks by Hamas. What many are questioning is the hyperfocus on the cause for Israeli retaliation and calling for the IDF to institute rules of engagement that adhere to international rules of war. Primarily the part about protecting civilians that are up shit creek without a paddle.

When some people throw out phrases like "a population has to be responsible for its government" or quoting dumb shit kids say it sounds like they are justifying that Palestinian civilians do not qualify for basic humanitarian rights and should be treated no different than cockroaches.

From my point of view, Israel is justified in waging war on Hamas. There isn't a need to the fan flames by dehumanizing Palestinians and Israel must implement rules of engagement and take every step necessary to avoid harming civilians. There is no need to reveal in the atrocities of the Hamas, that's for revenge porn fiends that get high off the thought of seeing mass uncontrolled violence.

That's been the case for 75 years and is a root cause of everything. Israel has accomplished this between skirmishes so when shit hits the fan its Israel defending itself against cockroaches who got guns and fought back.

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1 hour ago, F250 said:

This. I don't think I have seen anyone here advocate Israel just ignore the attacks by Hamas. What many are questioning is the hyperfocus on the cause for Israeli retaliation and calling for the IDF to institute rules of engagement that adhere to international rules of war. Primarily the part about protecting civilians that are up shit creek without a paddle.

When some people throw out phrases like "a population has to be responsible for its government" or quoting dumb shit kids say it sounds like they are justifying that Palestinian civilians do not qualify for basic humanitarian rights and should be treated no different than cockroaches.

From my point of view, Israel is justified in waging war on Hamas. There isn't a need to the fan flames by dehumanizing Palestinians and Israel must implement rules of engagement and take every step necessary to avoid harming civilians. There is no need to reveal in the atrocities of the Hamas, that's for revenge porn fiends that get high off the thought of seeing mass uncontrolled violence.

Well I'm sure Hamas will present themselves to openly fight the Isrealis on a traditional battlefield, given they are outmatched at every level.

One side is warning civilians to leave.  The other chooses to use them as shields.

 

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48 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Because the Explaining in question oftentimes veers pretty close to...apologizing for Hamas. Which was pointed out to me, that no one was apologizing for Hamas. Let’s look at a typical sentence strucutre I'm sure you're famliar with: "I'm not apologizing for Hamas, but....."

That’s on you for thinking historical context is apology.

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25 minutes ago, slorch said:

Well I'm sure Hamas will present themselves to openly fight the Isrealis on a traditional battlefield, given they are outmatched at every level.

One side is warning civilians to leave.  The other chooses to use them as shields.

 

As I said earlier in this thread,

“at least the blood is on Hamas’ hands not ours”. That’s your argument

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13 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

As I said earlier in this thread,

“at least the blood is on Hamas’ hands not ours”. That’s your argument

"I'm not defending Hamas, but..."

Who's hands is the blood really on, Hobbes? You tell us. Because most people here freely admit it's on both.

Hamas is literally advising Gaza citizens that Isreli's warning for people to evacuate to the South is psychological warfare to force a migration to leave their homes. They're telling them not to evacuate. In many places, as being reported on MSNBC, they're actively PREVENTING citizens from evacuating to the South. Who's hands are the blood on?

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It looks like Hamas also murdered at least 18 Arabs/Palestinians with dozens more wounded and several missing (maybe also kidnapped) last Saturday.

If nothing else, read the last four lines and recall all the recent comments about how all the Palestinians are irredeemable and brainwashed. Also, Johnny Sack's blatant racism in calling the Palestinian people "vermin."

 

Quote

 

Arab citizens of Israel were not spared in the Hamas-led massacres.

The family of Awad Darawsheh spent five agonizing days waiting for news. Mr. Darawsheh, a paramedic in his 20s, had been working at a music festival in southern Israel when Palestinian gunmen stormed in, firing at fleeing attendees and dragging others away as hostages.

On Thursday night, his family received word: Mr. Darawsheh had been shot dead during the attack, said Ashraf Ayoub, who oversaw him in the United Hatzalah emergency medical services organization.

Mr. Darawsheh joined a grim list: He was one of more than 100 killed in what appears to have been one of the worst massacres of the sweeping surprise attack launched by Hamas on Saturday. And his death underscores how the terror did not spare Israel’s Arab citizens.

About two million of Israel’s citizens are Arab. Many identify as Palestinian or share close family ties with those in the West Bank and Gaza.

Arab citizens hailing from Bedouin communities scattered across the south appear to have been particularly hard hit. Ata Abu Mdegem, the mayor of the Bedouin Arab city of Rahat in southern Israel, said that he knew of at least 18 Arab citizens from southern Israel who had been killed since the assault began. Some were killed when Palestinian rockets struck their towns, many of which lack safe rooms or sufficient public bomb shelters, he said, and others while working in the farms of towns near the Gaza Strip.

“We’re still in shock,” Mr. Abu Mdegem said. “There’s still so many unanswered questions and confusion.”

He said dozens of Arab citizens were wounded and several others were still missing and feared captured by Hamas.

Ali Abu Sabeelah’s cousin Amer, 25, is one of them. Amer, a construction worker, was in the southern city of Sderot when Hamas gunmen attacked.

“We eventually found his car. But he was gone,” Mr. Abu Sabeelah said, adding that the family wasn’t sure whether he was alive, dead, or had been captured.

Back in Rahat, at least four members of the same family — Yousef Zayadneh, his daughter Aisha and his sons Hamza and Bilal — were missing.

“These people came and killed left and right,” said Suleiman Zayadneh, their relative and a local official.

He said he was “proud of being Palestinian” and expressed fury that Hamas had committed such acts supposedly in the name of Palestinian nationalism and Islam.

“What national pride? What religion?” he said of the gunmen. “The people who came to shoot and kill — they know nothing of religion.”

 

 

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"They're all brainwashed"

From Haaretz:

Quote

 

Israel's Arab Citizens, Torn Between Innocent Israeli and Palestinians Victims
For many Arabs in Israel, the sorrow of witnessing the many innocent Israelis being hurt on one side quickly turned into the anguish of seeing the many innocents being struck within the Strip

The attack by Hamas on the Israel's Gaza border communities Saturday and the war that unfolded in its aftermath have shocked Israel's Arab society. As in any round of violence, Israel's Arab citizens find themselves torn between their identities as both Palestinians and Israelis and their basic values – which stand above everything.

The prevailing atmosphere in Israel's Arab society is that of silence mixed with vigilance and dread. Like all Israelis, the country's Arab citizens are following events in the media. The visuals captured in the Israeli communities near Gaza were initially perceived by them as reflecting a military victory, and there were even those who compared the surprise attack to the breach of the Bar-Lev line during the Yom Kippur War of 1973.

However, once the horrific atrocities carried out by Hamas began to circulate in the media, showing citizens being kidnapped and murdered, the perception changed. Many Arab citizens expressed grief and pain over the harming of innocents, along with concerns about the consequences of such an attack both on the Gaza Strip and Israel's Arab society.
Israel's Arab citizens did not miss the gushing flow of information about the many dead, wounded, kidnapped and those whose whereabouts are unknown. Many of them have lost their relatives, friends, or family members, some from Arab communities in the Negev where there are no shelters. Activists in nonprofit organizations and public benefit corporations that engage in activities for the Bedouin population near Gaza were also killed or wounded in the attacks.

Within two days, however, the photos from the severe attacks on Israel's south were replaced by those showing Israel's attacks on Gaza. Israeli media did not broadcast these visuals, but the country's Arab citizens saw almost everything live on Arab satellite channels and social media posts.

The sorrow of witnessing the many innocent Israelis being hurt on one side of the Gaza border was now turned into the anguish of seeing the many innocents being struck within the Strip. Israel's Arab citizens face a complex situation.

Attorney Hanan Alsanah, a social activist and member of the Be'er Sheva office of Itach-Maaki, an association of women lawyers for social justice, does not hide the pain and dilemma in Arab society, but emphasized that one should focus primarily on basic human values.

"The heart weeps," Alsanah wrote on Facebook. "It weeps for the many friends we have lost, for the innocent citizens on both sides who paid such a price. The heart weeps for all the people missing; for the citizens in the unrecognized and unprotected [Bedouin] villages, many of whom died and are not even mentioned. The heart weeps for the children, the women, the young and the elderly. The heart weeps! Because we knew we were led by erratic individuals who were setting the whole area on fire, and we did not do enough."

At least for now, and as the scars of Operation Guardian of the Walls of 2021 are still healing, Israel's Arab citizens refrain from protesting the current devastation and loss of innocent lives in Gaza. To deal with the situation, the Arab parties and members of the High Follow-up Committee for Arab Citizens of Israel established an emergency committee and situation rooms that include professionals, advisors and experts to help Israel's Arab population as the war continues.

Muhammad Baraka, chairman of the Higher Arab Monitoring Committee in Israel, told Haaretz that Israel's Arab citizens are not blind to the unfolding events.

"Our position has always been against harming civilians, but what happened Saturday must not give Israel the legitimacy to brutally attack the civilian population in Gaza. 60 percent of the wounded there are civilians. These are women and children. Nothing can justify this. Since 1948, the Palestinians have always suffered, so no one can teach us what civilian suffering is. The struggle shouldn't be about revenge but how we'll be able to end the reasons for all this, for the Palestinians who also wish to live like human beings."

Haaretz spoke to Baraka while National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir addressed the media outside the police station in the southern city of Sderot. Ben-Gvir said that there is a solid possibility that riots would break out across Israel in a similar fashion to what we have seen during Operation Guardian of the Walls.

"Ben-Gvir wants to start a fire and unleash flames within the borders of the Green Line because that is his area of responsibility," Baraka said and referred to the minister's call to allow all residents of Sderot to carry weapons "In Arab society we're not afraid of Ben-Gvir, we behave responsibly as we understand the complexity of the situation."

Lawyer and social activist Khaled Azbarka of the People's Committee in the city of Lod, who represented many young Arabs who participated in the riots during Operation Guardian of the Walls, agrees with Baraka that Ben-Gvir's statements are inciting.

"Ben-Gvir wants his agenda to influence [the situation in] Israel so he'll be able to stir up his base for his own interest, but that won't happen," Azbarka said, clarifying that the Arab citizens want no escalation. "Israel's Arab society shows responsibility. We expect that the government and the Israeli public as a whole will also behave this way and not turn every Arab into an immediate suspect and a terrorist."

Many Arab Israelis feel that Hamas has crossed the line this time, so they prefer to keep a low profile. A social activist who usually organizes demonstrations explained why he avoids them now: "The whole situation is complex. It's also the number [of victims] on both sides, but there's no doubt what happened during Operation Guardian of the Walls still resonates and there are quite a few young [Arab] people who are still behind bars. On top of that, you have our extreme government and a general atmosphere that can give the police [the legitimacy] to shoot, for example, a convoy of five cars that carry a Palestinian flag."

Israel's Arab citizens are extremely cautious even online, as various right-wing organizations monitor posts that they suspect as incitement to violence and report them. Attorney Sawsan Zaher, the legal advisor of the committee that deals with emergencies in the Arab community, said that in recent days she has received many inquiries and complaints from Arab citizens and students about sanctions being taken against them for various online statements.

Zaher claims that many posts express sorrow over the death of innocent children, women and civilians in the Gaza Strip and do not include inciting claims. She added that monitoring these posts is a violation of freedom of expression and that the committee is examining how to take legal action against the police and universities who act against those who express a legitimate position. "In light of the current situation, we need to examine to what extent freedom of expression is eroded to zero in Israel of 2023," she said.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

As I said earlier in this thread,

“at least the blood is on Hamas’ hands not ours”. That’s your argument

No it isn’t. I described the situation of human shields and civilian casualties.

 

Nobody is innocent, nor did I say it expressly or implied.

You really have to be binary about it all don’t you?  Every fucking time.

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