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2 minutes ago, SquishMitten said:

I’ll agree with where you started that it shouldn’t be vice versa, but I don’t follow the rest of your arguement. The Constitution is what it is. I think we can all agree that Congress then generally gets to further define what certain things mean, and SCOTUS gets to decide if what Congress enacts is in line with the intent of the Constitution. But when the Constitution doesn’t perfectly state its purpose (e.g., you can’t be President if you weren’t born here), there’s nothing to debate. Insurrection is not perfectly defined; thus, Congress has the authority to spell it out more specifically. There are criminal statutes that more succinctly define it (admittedly, I’m making an assumption on that point based on other posts, but I think the point is valid whether that is true or not).  When enacted, everybody knew exactly what it meant so they shortsightedly didn’t spell it out perfectly. Unfortunate, but I get it. We’d hopefully do it better now, but imagine if there was a Constitutional amendment tomorrow that said “anybody who participated in an attack to disrupt the certification of elections is barred from holding office” (or something along those lines), and a hundred years from now, a group of mouthbreathers attacked the Supreme Court building while they were hearing oral arguments on an election case. Would that count under the law I just hypothesized? 
 

Fuck it. I’m tired and don’t want to write anymore. I’m sure there’s obvious points/counterpoints in my argument that I skipped over because they seem obvious to me. I hate the orange POS, but I don’t think SCOTUS should affirm CO’s ruling as is. If in the next case they decide he’s immune, then we’re officially turbo fucked 

If you take an originalist POV, the ambiguity is on purpose and must be perceived in a manner as to give it a WIDE latitidude.

That's why this is all Calvinball.

Alito, Thomas, K-dawg, ACB, J Robs, and G-money should all look at this in the frame of: "The writers of the 14th amendment had all the political will, latitude, and incentive to write this as they deemed fit. They could have been very, VERY, limited in their scope of what the 14th amendment should be. Should it be for those convicted? Should their be a very fine definition of 'insurrection'? Would one need to be found guilty in some sort of impeachment like trial?.

The answer to all of these is no.

The writers wrote:

"No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability."

Engaged in.

Not convicted of.

Not proven beyond a reasonable doubt of.

Hell, the 'given aid and comfort to the enemies' is so incredibly broad in its language that it shows just what they wanted IMO.

They didn't want or thought the union could withstand the odiousness of anyone who would not uphold the constitution. Hard stop.

And the idea that we'd allow someone who stoked a plot to storm the capital and try to stop the certification of an election AND (and here's the real damning part IMO) engaged in a plot to field illegitimate electors so as to install himself as president is something of an anathema of what the intent of the 14th is and WAS.

Any pedantic parsing that the justices pontificate is nothing short of vile, villainous, and vacillating.

It's a total microcosm of our times.

A time where statesmen are lacking.

There is no courage in our leadership.

OUr government is all cock and no balls because we're so far removed from a true existential struggle for what it is to be an American citizen.

My grandfathers who fought WW2 knew what this country stood for.

My parents and boomers who inherited a prize do not.

GenX could give a shit.

My millennial brethren are just bitter on the promise we were told that hasn't materialized.

And GenZ doesn't know if they should swipe left, care, make a TikTok about it, or play roulette on their last score b/c it might just have Fentylnol in it.

 

The answer is obvious, IMO, if we open our eyes to the reality / scope fo the problem.

We're so wrapped up, however, in our own deluding bullshit to see it or even more sadly ... to care.

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1 hour ago, Satchel said:

To listen to Supreme Court Justices wring their hands about a state being allowed to potentially decide an election when the Supreme Court allowed a state to decide an election in Bush v. Gore is mind blowing.

 tenor.gif?itemid=15086629&f=1&nofb=1&ipt

 

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2 hours ago, Homercles said:

Frankly, the more confident and financially stable I become, I actually find myself caring more about other’s plights

I think as we get older, we get more experience and then you start realize that some of the yelling and screaming about certain things may not be true.

OBAMACARE IS OF THE DEVIL?!?!?!?!

Oh... hey... you're telling me Obamacare now requires my insurance company to cover the entire cost of my colonoscopy?  Hmmm... 

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10 hours ago, Satchel said:

To listen to Supreme Court Justices wring their hands about a state being allowed to potentially decide an election when the Supreme Court allowed a state to decide an election in Bush v. Gore is mind blowing.

The Supreme Court doesn’t want to dirty its hands much with voter suppression and gerrymandering issues. Because the red states who do that can allow a single state to swing an election.

But that is different because…….

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52 minutes ago, texasdago said:

I think as we get older, we get more experience and then you start realize that some of the yelling and screaming about certain things may not be true.

OBAMACARE IS OF THE DEVIL?!?!?!?!

Oh... hey... you're telling me Obamacare now requires my insurance company to cover the entire cost of my colonoscopy?  Hmmm... 

 

Biden and Obama came through in telling the insurance companies to shove it up the ass.

 

Promises made. Promises kept.

 

Biden 2024

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9 hours ago, texasdago said:

I think as we get older, we get more experience and then you start realize that some of the yelling and screaming about certain things may not be true.

OBAMACARE IS OF THE DEVIL?!?!?!?!

Oh... hey... you're telling me Obamacare now requires my insurance company to cover the entire cost of my colonoscopy?  Hmmm... 

A twenty something probably doesn’t realize who pays when an uninsured person winds up in the ER for a nasty flu episode.  Those of us who are older realize that we all pay when that happens, and that it would be better and cheaper for all of us if that uninsured person had access to medical care that saw them visiting a doctor’s office and then heading over to a pharmacy for Tamiflu.

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2 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

A twenty something probably doesn’t realize who pays when an uninsured person winds up in the ER for a nasty flu episode.  Those of us who are older realize that we all pay when that happens, and that it would be better and cheaper for all of us if that uninsured person had access to medical care that saw them visiting a doctor’s office and then heading over to a pharmacy for Tamiflu.

Remember kids, Texas could expand Medicaid whenever it wants. Unfortunately, this state is run by a bunch of assholes.

Edited by David Dennison
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12 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

A twenty something probably doesn’t realize who pays when an uninsured person winds up in the ER for a nasty flu episode.  Those of us who are older realize that we all pay when that happens, and that it would be better and cheaper for all of us if that uninsured person had access to medical care that saw them visiting a doctor’s office and then heading over to a pharmacy for Tamiflu.

Honestly I think it is the opposite. The complete inability to think critically about how the common good and the individual interest can be aligned is almost exclusively a trait of older folks in my experience. At some point your views are just too hardened. Of course, that is anecdotal. 

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23 hours ago, Homercles said:

I’m about to turn 44 and was told the older you get, the more conservative you are…the ‘I got mine’ clause.  Frankly, the more confident and financially stable I become, I actually find myself caring more about other’s plights because I have fewer personal existential threats to concern myself with. 
image.gif.16e88918aeeb532e4174cad26baaaf07.gif

I've gotten more practical in my progressivism now in my 30's vs 10-15 years ago at UT, more willing to see the virtue of incremental progress or compromise.

My core views have not changed and if anything I feel stronger that the vast majority of this country is getting turbofucked by the system in place having really gotten in on the fun myself. If anything my biggest policy shifts are predominantly in realizing there are places where major change is needed that I hadn't really considered when I was younger (land use, policing, etc).

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Ive definitely moved more to the center and you can thank the 2016 election for that.

 

As for socialized medicine, seeing how treatment worked when dealing with injuries in Austria and France told me maybe our system here sucks.  That and people make medical decisions based on cost and not health because everything costs an ass load of money. 

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6 minutes ago, texasdago said:

That and people make medical decisions based on cost and not health because everything costs an ass load of money. 

"Insurance" companies make medical decisions for their customers on the basis of what is most profitable for their shareholders. Our system is fundamentally broken, and it will remain that way for as long as our medical system answers to shareholders demanding infinite quarterly growth

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42 minutes ago, Captainant said:

"Insurance" companies make medical decisions for their customers on the basis of what is most profitable for their shareholders. Our system is fundamentally broken, and it will remain that way for as long as our medical system answers to shareholders demanding infinite quarterly growth

Yup.  And it's amazing that people fight to keep the system and by people I don't mean corporations or lobbyists

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The complete inability to think critically about how the common good and the individual interest can be aligned is almost exclusively a trait of older folks in my experience.

FANTASTIC short form statement, and I will be stealing it. I don’t agree that it’s exclusively old folks, but it’s heavily weighted that way.
And I share your utter confusion and frustration about the phenomenon. Good public education is a great example. Yes, it benefits little Johnny or Jose if we spend money educating him: teaching him to read, do math, basic critical thinking and problem solving. And heaven forbid we should spend MY tax dollars helping…you know….THEM. But FFS, investing those tax dollars in Johnny and Jose make them into more productive members of society, helping our GDP which ultimately helps me. And it keeps them from resorting to stealing my car. And it keeps me from having to spend 10 years of prison costs on them.
Spend a dollar today, yielding $1.50 in returns, AND avoiding $5 in losses/costs later for each $1 spent? It’s a fucking no-brainer. But we can’t get there. Not even close.
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4 hours ago, gmr548 said:

Honestly I think it is the opposite. The complete inability to think critically about how the common good and the individual interest can be aligned is almost exclusively a trait of older folks in my experience. At some point your views are just too hardened. Of course, that is anecdotal. 

I'd like to think Gen X will be different, but whatever.

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49 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


FANTASTIC short form statement, and I will be stealing it. I don’t agree that it’s exclusively old folks, but it’s heavily weighted that way.
And I share your utter confusion and frustration about the phenomenon. Good public education is a great example. Yes, it benefits little Johnny or Jose if we spend money educating him: teaching him to read, do math, basic critical thinking and problem solving. And heaven forbid we should spend MY tax dollars helping…you know….THEM. But FFS, investing those tax dollars in Johnny and Jose make them into more productive members of society, helping our GDP which ultimately helps me. And it keeps them from resorting to stealing my car. And it keeps me from having to spend 10 years of prison costs on them.
Spend a dollar today, yielding $1.50 in returns, AND avoiding $5 in losses/costs later for each $1 spent? It’s a fucking no-brainer. But we can’t get there. Not even close.

Some time ago there was a fellow who ran for city council where I live. He was of the 'no taxes, I'm a fiscal conservative, no social benefits for the community unless there is a fiscal ROI' variety. His platform was quite austere and he wanted no money to go into the parks department, despite the rapid growth of the community. One of the city's requirements for developers was setting aside some land for a park (I think it depended upon subdivision size) and this guy objected because parks have to be maintained and he didn't think residents should have to pay for parks all over town, etc. Well, I happened to look up this guy and guess what? He lived across the street from a park, a very nice park that was well maintained by the city. But two miles away in a neighborhood where some apartments were being constructed--well those residents were going to be SOL if he got elected--just some green space with no equipment for the children like this guy's neighborhood had because we'd already paid for his. I might've put the word out about that and was relieved that a slightly different fiscal conservative got elected. One who didn't mind funding parks that benefit all of the citizens but also kept an eye out against wasteful spending in areas such as hiring the retired  friend of one of the other members as a "consultant" when reviewing building plans when the city had its own architect. LOL.

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5 hours ago, gmr548 said:

I've gotten more practical in my progressivism now in my 30's vs 10-15 years ago at UT, more willing to see the virtue of incremental progress or compromise.

My core views have not changed and if anything I feel stronger that the vast majority of this country is getting turbofucked by the system in place having really gotten in on the fun myself. If anything my biggest policy shifts are predominantly in realizing there are places where major change is needed that I hadn't really considered when I was younger (land use, policing, etc).

I feel similarly, only it's been over 50 years since I was at UT.  Yes, I'm a boomer, but not one of those with an "inability to think critically about how the common good and the individual interest can be aligned."

At times, I get angry and revert to the borderline radicalism of my youth.  I guess what has changed the most is my opinion on how to go about effecting change and how quickly we can expect it.  (If ever.)

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6 hours ago, gmr548 said:

Honestly I think it is the opposite. The complete inability to think critically about how the common good and the individual interest can be aligned is almost exclusively a trait of older folks in my experience. At some point your views are just too hardened. Of course, that is anecdotal. 

Chuckle, the common good is so 1960s

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1 minute ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

The younger end of Gen X may be ok, but the older end is just as bad as the boomers.

I think it varies, I really do. Brett Kavanaugh is at the older end but Josh Hawley is at the younger end. Yet I know Gen X of various ages that are way to the left of those two. Gen X seems to march to their own beat but no one pays any attention regardless which could explain some of the disaffected MAGA types that went to DC wanting to be seen. As a whole, though, and perhaps moreso in middle America you're probably more correct than my own anecdotal experience.

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2 hours ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Some time ago there was a fellow who ran for city council where I live. He was of the 'no taxes, I'm a fiscal conservative, no social benefits for the community unless there is a fiscal ROI' variety. His platform was quite austere and he wanted no money to go into the parks department, despite the rapid growth of the community. One of the city's requirements for developers was setting aside some land for a park (I think it depended upon subdivision size) and this guy objected because parks have to be maintained and he didn't think residents should have to pay for parks all over town, etc. Well, I happened to look up this guy and guess what? He lived across the street from a park, a very nice park that was well maintained by the city. But two miles away in a neighborhood where some apartments were being constructed--well those residents were going to be SOL if he got elected--just some green space with no equipment for the children like this guy's neighborhood had because we'd already paid for his. I might've put the word out about that and was relieved that a slightly different fiscal conservative got elected. One who didn't mind funding parks that benefit all of the citizens but also kept an eye out against wasteful spending in areas such as hiring the retired  friend of one of the other members as a "consultant" when reviewing building plans when the city had its own architect. LOL.

Where I live there is a long history of terrible treatment of the minority areas, including things like upkeep or improvements to parks.  So guess who was taking advantage of the nice parks in the nicer parts?

More recently there has been a clear effort to spread the wealth, so to speak, by the parks department.  For years I have run past this one particular park in a rough part of town, especially on longer runs on the weekends.  Happy to say that the last couple of years I see not just a lot of people but huge parties/events/cookouts at the improved facilities.  Like, I want to stop and see if they'll let me hang out, the food smells amazing.

The cynical side of me wonders about the motivation to spend $$$ to improve those certain parks.

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14 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Sorry brothers and sisters, but Gen X is literally the most Republican/Trumpiest generation.  https://www.npr.org/2023/12/27/1217878506/gen-x-conservative-disapprove-biden

Of course we know Gen X people who aren’t - it’s 60/40, not unanimous - but we have actual data on this.

I'm always curious what percentage of "disapprove" comes from left leaning and progressive voters.

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Sorry brothers and sisters, but Gen X is literally the most Republican/Trumpiest generation.  https://www.npr.org/2023/12/27/1217878506/gen-x-conservative-disapprove-biden
Gen X is the most Republican of the generations," said Jean Twenge, a psychology professor at San Diego State University and author of the book Generations, which examines what drives generational differences.
NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist pollingunderscores that point: By generation, Biden has the highest disapproval rating from Generation X (62%), compared with the Silent/Greatest Generation (48%), baby boomers (48%) and Generation Z/millennials (50%). Biden also has the highest "strongly disapprove" rating from Gen X (52%), compared with the Silent/Greatest Generation (41%), boomers (39%) and Gen Z/millennials (35%).
Of course we know Gen X people who aren’t - it’s 60/40, not unanimous - but we have actual data on this.

The thing is, that article really doesn’t support the idea that Gen X is more Republican. We have a high disapproval of Biden, but as noted plenty of times, a lot of folks who disapprove of him will still vote for him.
Also, we’re a bit schizophrenic - we were the first generation to push back on hypertensive political correctness, and the article also notes that we push back against current conservative book banning shit.
Layer on the fact that it’s the ultimate “left behind” generation, and you also have a feeling of being excluded from this American dream that everyone told us was right there, easy to grab (and it was…right up until the moment we reached an age where we could start achieving it, and then the ladder kept getting pulled up.)
So, the point I got is that we are likely the most vociferously “fuck all of these fuckers” generation.
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On 2/9/2024 at 8:13 AM, Homercles said:

I’m about to turn 44 and was told the older you get, the more conservative you are…the ‘I got mine’ clause.  Frankly, the more confident and financially stable I become, I actually find myself caring more about other’s plights because I have fewer personal existential threats to concern myself with. 

I feel the same way, but have also noticed that the older I get (just turned 53) the less I'm inclined to do anything about it.  

When I was younger I used to be out there volunteering and trying to save the world.  Now I just bitch about things on Surly.

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1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

It's really mind bottling.  I remember hearing how horrible socialized medicine was and how the Canadians and Europeans got shitty care.

Then I moved to Prague and the reality was totally different.  Sure the facilities a little drab...no fountains in the lobby or receptionists to greet you, but I had to go to the ER once when I threw out my back and it cost $3.  

That was inclusive of an MRI, and 3 weeks of rehab which included massages, PT and specialized whirlpool treatments.

My national health insurance was about $120/month.  Here I pay $700 a month with $60 specialist co-pays.

Americans have been so duped.

It's infuriating.

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2 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

It's really mind bottling.  I remember hearing how horrible socialized medicine was and how the Canadians and Europeans got shitty care.

Then I moved to Prague and the reality was totally different.  Sure the facilities a little drab...no fountains in the lobby or receptionists to greet you, but I had to go to the ER once when I threw out my back and it cost $3.  

That was inclusive of an MRI, and 3 weeks of rehab which included massages, PT and specialized whirlpool treatments.

My national health insurance was about $120/month.  Here I pay $700 a month with $60 specialist co-pays.

Americans have been so duped.

This right here. 

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19 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Of course we know Gen X people who aren’t - it’s 60/40, not unanimous - but we have actual data on this.

The thing is, that article really doesn’t support the idea that Gen X is more Republican. We have a high disapproval of Biden, but as noted plenty of times, a lot of folks who disapprove of him will still vote for him.
Also, we’re a bit schizophrenic - we were the first generation to push back on hypertensive political correctness, and the article also notes that we push back against current conservative book banning shit.
Layer on the fact that it’s the ultimate “left behind” generation, and you also have a feeling of being excluded from this American dream that everyone told us was right there, easy to grab (and it was…right up until the moment we reached an age where we could start achieving it, and then the ladder kept getting pulled up.)
So, the point I got is that we are likely the most vociferously “fuck all of these fuckers” generation.

Great point.  I'm Gen X and don't want Biden as President either, but I'm sure as hell going to vote for him given the alternative.  

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13 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

It's really mind bottling.  I remember hearing how horrible socialized medicine was and how the Canadians and Europeans got shitty care.

Then I moved to Prague and the reality was totally different.  Sure the facilities a little drab...no fountains in the lobby or receptionists to greet you, but I had to go to the ER once when I threw out my back and it cost $3.  

That was inclusive of an MRI, and 3 weeks of rehab which included massages, PT and specialized whirlpool treatments.

My national health insurance was about $120/month.  Here I pay $700 a month with $60 specialist co-pays.

Americans have been so duped.

Not to disagree with the general sentiment, but how did your other taxes compare?

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7 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Not to disagree with the general sentiment, but how did your other taxes compare?

The tax rate in the CR is 15% up to 36x the average wage, and then moves to 23% for anything above that....in other words, less.

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18 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Y’all can try to project your own feelings onto the rest of Gen X all you want, but it’s not because they’re so objective and above it all that they disapprove of Democrats but plan to vote D anyway.  Gen X is solidly Republican according to virtually every poll.  And markedly more Republican as they’ve gotten older, just like Boomers (and actually more R leaning than Boomers in 2022 midterms).

spacer.png

https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/first-read/poll-gen-x-gen-z-take-different-political-paths-rcna66264

Your generation is MAGA.  Deal with it.  It doesn’t reflect on you individually.

Do we know were these polls conducted? 

I'm just not buying the swing right over the past 10 years.  Perhaps I'm just in denial, but I'm inclined to believe there is a flaw in the poll's methodology.  

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1 hour ago, DixonHur said:

It's really mind bottling.  I remember hearing how horrible socialized medicine was and how the Canadians and Europeans got shitty care.

Then I moved to Prague and the reality was totally different.  Sure the facilities a little drab...no fountains in the lobby or receptionists to greet you, but I had to go to the ER once when I threw out my back and it cost $3.  

That was inclusive of an MRI, and 3 weeks of rehab which included massages, PT and specialized whirlpool treatments.

My national health insurance was about $120/month.  Here I pay $700 a month with $60 specialist co-pays.

Americans have been so duped.

My aunt was in a car wreck in Germany and wrecked her shoulder.  She had to have surgery and recovered in the hospital for a few days.  Total out of pocket bill was like $200.

The doctors over there gave her a packet of info on what all they had done and told her to follow up with a doctor when she got back home.  The doctor here said there were only about five surgeons in the US qualified to perform the same surgical technique she received.

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29 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Y’all can try to project your own feelings onto the rest of Gen X all you want, but it’s not because they’re so objective and above it all that they disapprove of Democrats but plan to vote D anyway.  Gen X is solidly Republican according to virtually every poll.  And markedly more Republican as they’ve gotten older, just like Boomers (and actually more R leaning than Boomers in 2022 midterms).

spacer.png

https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/first-read/poll-gen-x-gen-z-take-different-political-paths-rcna66264

Your generation is MAGA.  Deal with it.  It doesn’t reflect on you individually.

Looking at those numbers, Millenials will prefer Republicans as they age, too. My guess is, so will Gen Z.

And so it goes.

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1 minute ago, longhornmatt said:

It’s Hart Research, who has been doing the polling for NBC News and the Wall Street Journal for 30 years.  The quoted ones from the NBC News link were national polls.

I’m not sure there is a more polite way to say it:  you are in denial.  Are we really doing “fake news” to NBC now?  And because - of all things - the idea that 40-60 year olds could not possibly be Trumpy?

Yeah but it doesn't seem like a generation thing. Those numbers indicate it's an age thing. Gen X is old.

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3 hours ago, longhornmatt said:

It’s Hart Research, who has been doing the polling for NBC News and the Wall Street Journal for 30 years.  The quoted ones from the NBC News link were national polls.

I’m not sure there is a more polite way to say it:  you are in denial.  Are we really doing “fake news” to NBC now?  And because - of all things - it’s unfathomable that 40-60 year olds could possibly be Trumpy?  

Not fake news, I'm just suspicious of modern polling.  Polling has long been a land line thing.  I'm just wondering how they are collecting the data.

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