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Craps for beginners:

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that's kind of a confusing way to look at it.

essentially at a table, you're looking at two types of bets - (1) pass line/come bets and (2) place bets. 

pass line and come function similarly, where you make the bet ahead of a roll that establishes the number you're aiming for, then once it's established, you bet odds on the number, which get paid depending on how difficult it is to hit. 

a place bet you can make whenever you want, but typically you want to make after the come out (it's off on the come out anyway).  it's one stack, and it's something you want to eventually press, but there aren't "odds" that you can add to it.  like shaka said, they're already baked into the bet.  it's also a bet that you can call "off" at anytime, or completely take down if you want.  (pass line or come bet you can take down your odds, but your initial bet is stuck.  it's also "working" on the come out).

otherwise, i think you have it correct.  you should go to a simulator to practice before you play.

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Vegas trip report from this week:

I generally stick to 5/6/8/9 bets, and then pass line for the table minimum about 1/2 the time with varying odds depending on feel.   If I get pretty far into a shooter I'll start to get on the hardways as well.

Played a $10 table for a about a half hour at Caeser's Tuesday morning.   Wasn't really feeling it there and gave back $100 or so.  Went over to Harrah's and they just went from $5 to $10 when I walked up.  I played about an hour there and gave them another $100.   I was kind of pissy at that point so I went to play poker instead.   

Wednesday morning I started out at Harrah's again and it was $5.  I played for 2 hours and gave them $50.  Walked over to the Linq and they had a $5 table going.  Sidenote: when I walk up to a table for the first time I wait for a new shooter or a come out roll before placing a bet so I can get a feel for what is going on at the table.   So I walk up and this asain guy is shooting and he keeps throwing 6's and 8's like crazy and I have no money on the table.   If I would have jumped in when I walked up I would have been at the $60 level on 6/8 I think so I missed out on some winnings there.  Dice finally go back around to that guy and he keeps making his point but not hitting 6/8 all that much.   Still I think I made $200 off his turn to shoot that go round.  I played there for about 2 hours and come out up about $400 for the session.   

Wednesday afternoon after the pool I am feeling like playing some more dice so I go to the Flamingo to a $10 table there.   Lost $200 pretty quick and left after about an hour.   At that point the whiskey started telling me to go to Caeser's and play there.   I get there and it's $25 minimum which not usually in my comfort zone but I told myself I would buy in for $100 and put $30 on the 5/6/8 and see what happens.   The shooter hit one number each before crapping out. That was enough for me so I cashed out and got a Smashburger and took a nap.  

Thursday morning I played for an hour at the Westgate for an hour, didn't do much there but break even.  Went to the Golden Nugget after that and donated $100 to them.  Went over to Binion's and with the help of my wife gave them a quick $100.   We also played roulette there for a minute to get off our feet and they had this roulette wheel with 2 balls on it for every turn, the payouts were half of the normal rate on inside numbers and the payout structure outside was all weird as well.   No more craps that day as we went into full party mode.  

Friday morning I had some time before our flight so I went back to Binion's.   Started out pretty bad there, down $200 pretty quick as I was putting max odds on the pass line and was ice cold.  All week I was pretty damn cold throwing the dice so I went back to my old ocd method of holding the dice before throwing them and I caught fire.   I started making points and my last turn had the 6 pressed up to $120 before crapping out.  It was time to go which fucking sucked because I was just starting to turn it all around.   Cash out for a little over $600 profit for that session and came out up about $200 on craps for the trip.  

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On 8/16/2018 at 6:14 AM, pearlandhorn said:

Been looking at another betting strategy besides the HG method. 

Assuming a $10 min table: $10 pass line, after point is established, $75 on the Don’t Come (DC), after that roll, min place bets on every number except the point and don’t come, add a $10 come bet. When that come bet moves to a new point, double odds, work your way up to max odds on that come bet and start collecting. Keep placing min come bets and getting odds. If your DC is rolled, you lose that, come off on  points and odds that you have on your come bets and reapply the DC. 

As far as simulations go, it’s pretty low risk. You may have $200 on the table but you will never lose it all and if you have a shooter that hits a few points, you will make money. Thoughts?

 

On 8/16/2018 at 9:33 AM, pearlandhorn said:

Here the video - kind of long.

I’ve actually watched this twice now. Seems like a very interesting strategy. I’ve been using the HG strategy for years, I love it, I’ve taught it to many people.  I’m going to try this new one next time I roll. At first it seems complicated because there is chip movement on almost every roll, but it’s seems easier to keep track of the level of bet. With HG I can lose track of the dollar amount to press to when it hits multiple times and whether the next 9 or 5 is a press or collect. You won’t have $300 or more on a 6, so you lose out on those huge presses but you can always put more money on the table. Been trying it out on a simulator this morning and up 1000 on a 10 table. 

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On 8/18/2018 at 9:35 PM, Bill Brasky said:

Vegas trip report from this week:

I generally stick to 5/6/8/9 bets, and then pass line for the table minimum about 1/2 the time with varying odds depending on feel.   If I get pretty far into a shooter I'll start to get on the hardways as well.

Played a $10 table for a about a half hour at Caeser's Tuesday morning.   Wasn't really feeling it there and gave back $100 or so.  Went over to Harrah's and they just went from $5 to $10 when I walked up.  I played about an hour there and gave them another $100.   I was kind of pissy at that point so I went to play poker instead.   

Wednesday morning I started out at Harrah's again and it was $5.  I played for 2 hours and gave them $50.  Walked over to the Linq and they had a $5 table going.  Sidenote: when I walk up to a table for the first time I wait for a new shooter or a come out roll before placing a bet so I can get a feel for what is going on at the table.   So I walk up and this asain guy is shooting and he keeps throwing 6's and 8's like crazy and I have no money on the table.   If I would have jumped in when I walked up I would have been at the $60 level on 6/8 I think so I missed out on some winnings there.  Dice finally go back around to that guy and he keeps making his point but not hitting 6/8 all that much.   Still I think I made $200 off his turn to shoot that go round.  I played there for about 2 hours and come out up about $400 for the session.   

Wednesday afternoon after the pool I am feeling like playing some more dice so I go to the Flamingo to a $10 table there.   Lost $200 pretty quick and left after about an hour.   At that point the whiskey started telling me to go to Caeser's and play there.   I get there and it's $25 minimum which not usually in my comfort zone but I told myself I would buy in for $100 and put $30 on the 5/6/8 and see what happens.   The shooter hit one number each before crapping out. That was enough for me so I cashed out and got a Smashburger and took a nap.  

Thursday morning I played for an hour at the Westgate for an hour, didn't do much there but break even.  Went to the Golden Nugget after that and donated $100 to them.  Went over to Binion's and with the help of my wife gave them a quick $100.   We also played roulette there for a minute to get off our feet and they had this roulette wheel with 2 balls on it for every turn, the payouts were half of the normal rate on inside numbers and the payout structure outside was all weird as well.   No more craps that day as we went into full party mode.  

Friday morning I had some time before our flight so I went back to Binion's.   Started out pretty bad there, down $200 pretty quick as I was putting max odds on the pass line and was ice cold.  All week I was pretty damn cold throwing the dice so I went back to my old ocd method of holding the dice before throwing them and I caught fire.   I started making points and my last turn had the 6 pressed up to $120 before crapping out.  It was time to go which fucking sucked because I was just starting to turn it all around.   Cash out for a little over $600 profit for that session and came out up about $200 on craps for the trip.  

Dang, sounds like an exact report of my craps playing last week in LV.  I didn't get the $600 payout at the end though.

 

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I don't necessarily play the HG method as I also play the pass line and typically 2-3x odds. I also will play all place numbers rather than inside. However, the timing in which i press and take bets down is similar.

For any of you that play the HG method, when do you/do you ever, hedge the 7?  For example I got to the point where I was having anywhere from 60-120 across all place bets and maybe 100 or so on the pass/odds.  When I realized I had $600+ on the table after a long roll, I started hopping 7's for 10 each. (30 total). I realize it cuts down on the profit at that point when I hit a point, and is a complete loss when it hits 2,3,11,12, but it really stings to crap out and lose that much money on the place bet.  (Plus i will typically play the bonus bet which means a 2, 3, 11, 12 gets me close to 30X or 150X bonus payout).

The only other time I hop 7 is if I see the dice leave the table or if the stickman/banker changes in the middle of a roll.

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You’re not losing anything at that point.  That’s the beauty of a ‘system’ or presses.

 

To your own point, you are eroding your own winnings by hedging on the 7’s hopping.

 

IMHO, if you’re that apprehensive about losing your place bets, set a ‘win limit’ and take em down upon achieving that goal.

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On 8/24/2018 at 7:31 AM, slorch said:

You’re not losing anything at that point.  That’s the beauty of a ‘system’ or presses.

 

To your own point, you are eroding your own winnings by hedging on the 7’s hopping.

 

IMHO, if you’re that apprehensive about losing your place bets, set a ‘win limit’ and take em down upon achieving that goal.

Don’t be the guy who takes down pressed bets in the middle of a hot roll.  If you have to do that just call “off” and get your money at the next come out..

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semantics.

 

Make the play you feel is correct for your money.

 

Don't make a shit, otherwise.  Just don't be doing that "down, then up, then off, then up again horsehit."

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agreed on what slorch is saying.  if you see the big bets the system has allowed you to accumulate as "money you're losing" then you shouldn't be playing a system with an aggressive pressing schedule.

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On 8/21/2018 at 3:23 PM, Enchubben said:

I don't necessarily play the HG method as I also play the pass line and typically 2-3x odds. I also will play all place numbers rather than inside. However, the timing in which i press and take bets down is similar.

For any of you that play the HG method, when do you/do you ever, hedge the 7?  For example I got to the point where I was having anywhere from 60-120 across all place bets and maybe 100 or so on the pass/odds.  When I realized I had $600+ on the table after a long roll, I started hopping 7's for 10 each. (30 total). I realize it cuts down on the profit at that point when I hit a point, and is a complete loss when it hits 2,3,11,12, but it really stings to crap out and lose that much money on the place bet.  (Plus i will typically play the bonus bet which means a 2, 3, 11, 12 gets me close to 30X or 150X bonus payout).

The only other time I hop 7 is if I see the dice leave the table or if the stickman/banker changes in the middle of a roll.

I live for the rolls where I have pressed up some numbers to 240, 300 or higher.   It’s key to have taken profit along the way but this could be the best roll that you see in a year. This is how you can walk away up 4 or 5 or 10 grand.    

I completely get it if the money on the table is some high percentage of a months salary, you are thinking it’s time to take it down.  But you should have pocketed that much already.    If it gets too much, then just stop pressing the numbers.  And if that is still too much, take down the bets after the shooter has hit a point.   Of course it is your money and you can take down all your bets anytime you want.  Just be prepared for some complaints.  Note: please do not color up your chips during the roll!   

The only time I hedge a seven is if I had bet the Small, Tall and All and only the 4 or 10 is left for the All, I may lay the number to lock in some profit.  Of course if you do this every time, you are effectively increasing the house edge in the small tall all.  

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I saw a variant to the DC hedge strategy where you play the pass and dont pass on Come out roll at same time (push except midnight).  After point is made, lay max odds on DP to hedge the DC bet.  But dont most tables cap lay odds 6 to 5? which would make an incomplete hedge right (win $60 on DP a 75 on the DC) with a 7?  If DC travels, then take down lay odds on DP and recycle to pass line odds and continue the strategy.  Any thoughts?

Edited by disgustipated

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On 9/6/2018 at 4:04 PM, disgustipated said:

I saw a variant to the DC hedge strategy where you play the pass and dont pass on Come out roll at same time (push except midnight).  After point is made, lay max odds on DP to hedge the DC bet.  But dont most tables cap lay odds 6 to 5? which would make an incomplete hedge right (win $60 on DP a 75 on the DC) with a 7?  If DC travels, then take down lay odds on DP and recycle to pass line odds and continue the strategy.  Any thoughts?

The odds depend upon the point

6 or 8- Lay 6 to win 5.

5 or 9- Lay 3 to win 2

4 or 10- Lay 2 to win 1

 

The 'capping' of odds is the table max in your example?  If so, that varies from venue to venue.  Lake Chuck is generally 20-1 max. Shreveport is too, except Horseshoe is 100-1 max.

Vegas sounds like most properties are going with that 2X-3X-5X max odds, depending upon the point.

It's just one guy's opinion, but I would NEVER take down a don't bet( Don't Pass or Don't Come) that has already traveled to a point.  You have made it past the come out and the odds are in your favor.  That's exactly why the casino is so readily agreeable to the player taking it down.

Edited by slorch

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Correction: i see that you meant simply moving the odds from the flat bet on the Don't Pass and taking it to the Pass line bet.  Technically that is a wash, or exactly even, as the odds bets on both the pass line and Don't Pass pay out at true odds, or with no juice subtracted.

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On 7/31/2018 at 9:30 AM, Lurch said:

Broke out the Craps Shooter app last night to experiment with different starting stack sizes needed to play a pass/come/max odds strategy on a 3-4-5 table, playing a come every time regardless of how many points I already have up and leaving the odds on when the point is off.

Seems like $400/$600/$1000 starting stacks for $10/$15/$25 bets was sufficient

While testing $25 I had some solid rolls and found myself with $2k from my starting $1k stack. Since it’s not real, I go ahead and start making $50 bets. I run it up to $5k. So I start making $100 bets. Mind you, max odds potentially puts 31 units on the table ($3100 here) and hits pay 7 units ($700). I made it up to $10k, fell down to $4k and then ran that up to $14k before quitting... what I would do to experience that in real life!

I’ve been playing HG method so long (when was that posted?) I’d forgotten how fun this one could be.

 

Bold: This is how I like to play (although its been quite a while). Gets fun when you have all the points covered.

Italics: Do you mean "odds-on on the comeout roll"? The default is odds-off on the comeout roll, no? Why leave them on?

 

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Bold: This is how I like to play (although its been quite a while). Gets fun when you have all the points covered.

Italics: Do you mean "odds-on on the comeout roll"? The default is odds-off on the comeout roll, no? Why leave them on?

 

 

I’ve since switched to playing two points until I’m up 25% then three points to 50% then four points at 75% and load the bases once I double up. I then find a time to raise the base from $25 to $50 around $3k, then $100 around $5k, being ready to pull back when I lose. I’ve run a $1k (virtual) to $10k three times since this last post. Of course, I’ve also lost countless $1k buyins. I do like this approach.

 

Correct. There’s really no logic to having odds off on the come-out roll, other than 7 being a good number for everyone else at the table. That said, I’m back to leaving it off unless I have 6 and 8.

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I don't like the Odds bet and here's why:

I prefer to lose slowly and have fun. The entire point of trying to play better odds for me is to lose slower.  But despite having even odds, you don't lose slower playing the Odds bet.  You put more money on the table to lose at the same rate.

What you are doing, though, is betting a larger portion of your money pool each round, so the likelihood of catching a bad streak leading to an early exit go up.

On a long enough time scale and infinite money pool, it doesn't matter though.

Edited by JBJ

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You do, in fact, lose slower as you play/increase odds. You’re diluting the house edge which by definition means it will take longer for them to get it all.

 

You don’t have a strategy problem when you lose it too fast playing odds, you have a bankroll problem.

 

 

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Edit timed out:

 

Put another way, it doesn't increase the expected loss rate, it increases the variance.  You lose more when you lose but win more win you win.  This evens out over the long haul.

 

Playing 6/8 or insides does the opposite.  It increases expected loss rate (worse odds).  But more ways to win gives a narrower variance.

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I would have to think more on the idea that playing the odds hurts you in the long run.  It does in the sense that the house still has an overall advantage and that you’re gambling in general.  

but agree with lurch that not playing full odds is a bankroll issue.  Or out of fear.   I shake my head at players that refuse to put odds on the 4 or 10.   

I always go with full odds at least up to 5x.  I’ve been places that allow up to 100x, and I can’t back up $25 with $2500.  My bankroll can’t handle that level.

but full odds are your best chance to walk away a winner unless you get extremely lucky.  And if you got extremely lucky, most likely playing full odds would have only increased winnings by a larger factor.

Edited by Nice Guy Eddie

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$1 total for that entire shooter no matter how or where you bet? Or every time he hits a point you pay again?

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everybody at table drops a dollar on a shooter's come out roll to make point.  So on pass line, hit 7/11 win and pay another buck on next come out.   Curious where do people prefer to station themselves when playing?  I like the stickman's hook.

Edited by disgustipated

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I throw best with my right hand like a frisbee, so I just stay away from being immediately to the stickman’s right. Ideally I’m in the middle of either end where I can also get a good view of the talent walking by.

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I play at either end, closest to dealer.

1. I like to see whole field of table without turning my neck or having some fathead block my view.

2. No matter how crowded it gets, I ain’t moving.

3. Typically, as it curves back slightly towards the box man, people are not walking behind you as much.

Edited by slorch

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On 9/14/2018 at 4:10 AM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I would have to think more on the idea that playing the odds hurts you in the long run.  It does in the sense that the house still has an overall advantage and that you’re gambling in general.  

Not that it hurts you in the long run.  That it can hurt you in short runs.

Take these examples:

If you play Place bets on 5,6,8,9 you have 4 numbers to hit, so it is only a 25% chance to lose your entire bet of 4.4u.  The median round loses 1.6u if you are collecting the first 3 wins.  Anything can catch a terrible run, but this usually means losing slowly.

The Pass+MaxOdds bet gives you a 48% chance to lose at least 4/5/6u (assuming 3/4/5 table and not counting Crap-Out losses). And that number is 59% if you ignore your wins on 7/11. The median round loses 4u.  Translation: it's a lot easier to catch a bad run and lose quickly.

 

My gambling strategy is to be drinking quicker than I lose money - while also still giving myself a decent chance at a run and having fun. Playing a wider range of rolls in craps accomplishes that quite well.

Pass+Max Odds feels like lose, lose, lose, win it all back.  The problem is that sometimes I don't win it all back, sometimes I lose 50u really quick and have to catch up on the drinking.

Edited by JBJ

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On 9/19/2018 at 2:32 PM, disgustipated said:

everybody at table drops a dollar on a shooter's come out roll to make point.  So on pass line, hit 7/11 win and pay another buck on next come out.   Curious where do people prefer to station themselves when playing?  I like the stickman's hook.

I prefer to be next to the stickman, giving me the shortest distance to wall.  Always throw the flying V and try to minimize movement of the dice.

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i don't often touch the dice, but i typically like to be on either far end.  makes me feel like i'm driving.  i can see the table standing or leaning or talking to people.

if it gets crowded, or i'm throwing, then left of stick has been pretty good to me.  it's a nice, easy motion for a righty thrower. 

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What's the craps situation like in tunica?  Going to Gamecock/ole miss game next month and staying at the Gold Strike in Tunica.  

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I had a great run at Bellagio this weekend.  My last craps session, I was up to 240 on 6 and 8, 100 on 9, and 50 on 4 and 5.  I finished up 1600 on that session, and just over 7K for the trip.  One of the guys at the table who was betting huge (by the end, he had 500 on the pass line and 2K odds) cashed out for 25,700.

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Yes, I normally stay at Mirage, but Bellagio gave me 4 free nights and upgraded me to a fountain view room, so I couldn't turn it down.  I'll definitely be staying there again soon.

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Yes, I normally stay at Mirage, but Bellagio gave me 4 free nights and upgraded me to a fountain view room, so I couldn't turn it down.  I'll definitely be staying there again soon.
I still like Bellagio's casino a lot, but the rooms need a refresh. Last one i stayed in was just tired.

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I'm headed to Vegas on Wednesday for a quick 24 hour trip.  I'm only expecting to have 2-3 hours total to throw dice, but I'm looking forward to getting back to the tables.

I didn't make it all the way through the new DC strategy video, but it seems too complicated for me to keep track of.  I've tried HG's strategy few times with little success, but that may just be because I haven't been fully committed to it.  I've always been a pass/come line guy.  I'll typically make 2 or 3 come line bets and ride it out, once I get a couple of payouts, I'll throw in another come bet until I have the bases loaded.  I do like to play the small/tall/all bet when it's available, but I like to make sure the odds are acceptably high.  I've won it a couple of times in the past and in both cases it has turned around a particularly cold night of playing.

A strategy I've been considering but haven't tired yet is to go to one of those places that offers high odds limits and make low line bets with really high odds.  I forget the name but last time I was there (February) I rolled a few times at the place across the street from the Bellagio. It offers up to 100x odds.  So rather than playing $25 line bets with $75,$100,$125 odds on the pass/come lines, I'm thinking about playing $5 pass/come bets with the same size odds I would be using at the $25 table ($75,$100,$125) backing them up.  Since the odds are supposed to be the best bet, I figure it should would out?

I'll report back with results. 

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Threw some dice in Vegas this weekend.  I have been playing the HG strategy for 5 or 6 years now and it is the only way I have ever made money in Vegas.   Got in Friday at lunch, grabbed a bite to eat and hit the table at Paris for a little bit.  Walk up to the table, buy in for $200, and in 30 minutes I cash out with $1100.  This was two rolls.  Great fucking time. Was back up and down the rest of the trip and ended up the weekend with $800 in profit.  I hit a couple hard ways and parlayed two hard 10 rolls and damn if I wasn't close to hitting that 3rd...Damn good time.

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Overdue update:

I played A LOT of craps in 24 hours.  I'd guess it was ~8 hours or so.  I went up nicely the first night, raking about 1.5x my buy-in using the pass lline with 2 come bets strategy.  The next day I went into a bit of a hole while the wife was at the spa.  I was playing at the bellagio and it was an especially cold table, I couldn't just walk away, I kept waiting for the dice to turn, but they never really did.  I just kept buying back in.  So I spent that evening and the next morning before we went to the airport fighting my way back.  By they time I got in the cab I was back to only slightly down.  I had a lot of fun working my way back (I just wish I hadn't had to do that).  I think this is the first time I've ever gone to vegas an didn't play a single hand of blackjack.  I think the dice have me ruined for every other table game.

 

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13 hours ago, BTW said:

Overdue update:

I played A LOT of craps in 24 hours.  I'd guess it was ~8 hours or so.  I went up nicely the first night, raking about 1.5x my buy-in using the pass lline with 2 come bets strategy.  The next day I went into a bit of a hole while the wife was at the spa.  I was playing at the bellagio and it was an especially cold table, I couldn't just walk away, I kept waiting for the dice to turn, but they never really did.  I just kept buying back in.  So I spent that evening and the next morning before we went to the airport fighting my way back.  By they time I got in the cab I was back to only slightly down.  I had a lot of fun working my way back (I just wish I hadn't had to do that).  I think this is the first time I've ever gone to vegas an didn't play a single hand of blackjack. I think the dice have me ruined for every other table game.

We stayed at the Wynn but I avoided playing there.  Instead, played at Four Queens and echo your sentiment regarding being ruined by the dice.  Had a good evening on Saturday playing the pass line and ended up leaving Sunday +$28-nothing to gloat about, but having only played craps twice, it felt pretty good to take some of their money instead of leaving some of mine.  Went to El Cortez on Sunday and broke smooth ass even in an hour of play.  Looking forward to December and returning to the song of the siren that is the craps tables.

13 hours ago, BTW said:

 

 

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Never won at the bellagio in any game. Fuck that place.  Great hotel and spa though.

Dice will ruin you for sure, I haven’t played much of anything since I learned although I wouldn’t mind learning baccarat.

 

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