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Jevan Snead story

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So we know that the body can cause protien buildup on our neurons due to a chemical imbalance, age, and now physical trauma, which all lead to the brain calculating incorrectly.  I am still intrigued by the physiological process of how emotional trauma also lead the brain down the road to mental illness.  How does that occur?  What's going on in the body at the organ and cellular level?  Is there a "memory effect" so to speak that if you continually light up the regions of the brain that represent sadness/depression that the circuitry will tend to gravitate that way more easily?  Or is it more on the side of the hormone source that triggers this and makes it more permanent in the long run?  Or in other words, your brain/emotions keep asking for the sad hormone, we're just gonna keep that valve open now.

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9 hours ago, UDontKnow said:

You're welcome to continue this dialogue with me via PM because it's starting to clutter the thread, so this will be my last post on the topic. 

I am sorry about your friend who took his life. I do not know the situation and it appears likely that medications may have been helpful in his case if his situation was identified early enough and if medication treatment was started immediately after identification. Most mental health is delivered by your friendly Primary Care doctors. God Bless them because they have it rough and they deal with every issue coming through the door. The lion's share of patients that go to psychiatrists have suspected mental health problems that are either acute or above the level of comfort that Primary Care doctors have in treating suspected mental health problems.

So what, who cares? My point is that for the patient population that I treat for depression, over 90% are being prescribed antidepressants. So I am not suggesting that there is "no distinction between needing meds and not needing them." The majority of patients I have on antidepressants believe that the medication is an all-cure, a magic bullet and I have to regularly counsel them that it is an inaccurate view. I try to get them to embrace a global "wellness view" meaning (in addition to their prescribed antidepressant) healthy diet, adequate amount of exercise, avoidance of tobacco and alcohol (alcohol is a depressant), and psychotherapy so that they can learn to cope with life stressors that either cause and/or exacerbate existing depression.

I never withhold the prescription of approved, evidence-based pharmacologic treatment for any mental health condition, including depression, especially if the patient feels it would be of benefit, but at the same time, I never force prescribed antidepressants on an unwilling patient either. Just as crucial as it is for me to provide a professional opinion, is my duty to educate and empower a patient while respecting their decisions when it comes to their health. I hope this clears up any confusion and again, you're welcome to continue corresponding with me via PM.

TwiceHorn's comment was important because the misunderstanding of depression is what often leads people not to get help. The common understanding of depression is situational. That is true of clinicians as well, they themselves are unclear on the distinction. So they overtreat, throwing meds at everything. Which is a commonly held view among people who could be called subject matter experts. Call it a Type I error. 

I am a member of more than one profession where a diagnosis of depression can be a career limiting, or a career ending, maneuver. Unsurprisingly, there is an concentration of suicides within these groups. They don't get treatment. They feel empowered not to get treatment because they think they push through it. If you can just keep going, it'll work out. But it doesn't. Lives are ruined or ended because people don't get meds. Those same people would never think they could push through a torn ACL, or a tibia fracture. But the common cultural understanding is the depression is mere weakness. The reality is it is a medical illness that requires medication. You are helpless against the illness.

Your patients have sought help, often not voluntarily. Of course they're on meds. It's the patients who need meds and don't get them that I am concerned about. From my foxhole, there's a shitload of those people. And many, many of them have bad outcomes. 

Put simply, the more you tell people that depression is a medical illness, and meds are the treament, the more lives will be saved. All the alpha males and females that think they can push through it are wrong, and they are risking their lives.

Jevan Snead, it appears, did not have CTE. He was, very likely, an alpha male who did not seek treatment but did kill himself. The article does not disclose that he receieved any medical treatment for what was likely to be a serious medical condition, or that he had a real diagnosis, so who knows, but if he had been pharmacologically or otherwise treated, most likely they would have mentioned it. So I don't think it's off topic, I think it's entirely on topic. I think he's exactly the situation I'm describing.

Anyway, that's my opinion from my foxhole. Many people who need meds aren't getting them and bad outcomes are happening. Type II error. You can treat a problem that occurs at the neurosynaptic level with talk therapy all day long, ut people need meds. But let's not just put it in the water supply, but let's find those folks who aren't seeking help and treat them. I want popular culture to understand it is a medical illness for which medical treatment is required. If they do, they'll get better and lives will be saved.

Edited by Thetexashammer

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14 hours ago, UDontKnow said:

I have to chime in here, because this statement is blatantly false. In psychiatry, we are asking the most in-depth of social histories compared to any other medical discipline to identify if there was/were a triggering event(s). That's also why sometimes hours can be spent talking to family members and friends to figure out what caused depression in a patient that otherwise had an unremarkable psychiatric (and for that matter, medical) history. The quickest example that comes to mind is depression in a setting of PTSD. I have treated adult sexual assault victims (without personality disorder diagnoses), both male and female, who have had chronic depression (technically, major depressive disorder, recurrent) and their symptoms commenced shortly after the trauma. Another scenario is the successful business person who lost everything during an economic downturn, became financially ruined, and then committed suicide (if it's not a culture-bound belief of disgrace similar to Eastern codes of honor, it is more than likely depression).

Depression and other mental illnesses are certainly linked to abnormal levels of multiple neurotransmitters and memory loss secondary to depression is called pseudodementia. Proper treatment (which differs patient to patient) for depression is crucial and if accomplished, the pseudodementia usually resolves. You are spot on about on how moderately to severely depressed patients begin viewing the various domains in their life through a lens that is marked by negativity which is why we send patients to therapy to develop coping skills and hopefully change their mindset such that everything in life isn't seen as calamity or catastrophe. Ideally, treatment encompasses the biopsychosocial model where the patient receives pharmacological/non-pharmacological (e.g. ECT, rTMS) intervention, therapy/counsleing, and family/friend support for their mental illness (including depression).

CTE is neuropsychiatric in nature. There is a chronic pattern of irreversible damage that has psychiatric manifestations that mimic dementia and often times with behavioral disturbance. The question is how do you reverse this brain damage? If that can be solved, then all the manifestations of CTE will not occur.

This guy sounds premed. 

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2 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

Jevan Snead, it appears, did not have CTE.

You made some good points, but the article painted a picture that looked like it could be more than depression. 

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7 hours ago, ImissWallyPryor said:

You made some good points, but the article painted a picture that looked like it could be more than depression. 

This. It documented how he was experiencing advanced memory loss at a very young age. 

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I know its a tangent. But I thought his transfer to Ole Miss was when Orgeron was coach there. Orgeron arranged for a local beauty queen in one of those tailgating dresses from the picture in the grove and she showed him the campus on a golf cart. Coach O was known as a nonstop recruiter and his tactics back at Ole Miss were detailed in a book by Bruce Feldman titled "Meat Market".

 

Anyway, I don't see how the depression and the concussions aren't related somehow, along with Sneads professional struggles and life after football.

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The thing that always stuck out to me was he had a pretty good sophomore campaign with signature wins in both Gainesville and Baton Rouge. I remember thinking that he was probably going to break out and have a great season in 2009 but he wound up regressing and turned in a much worse season.

When he declared early I just assumed he knew something was FUBAR at Ole Miss and that he was better off trying to get into the league rather than risk injury for a dead end team. Clearly I had no earthly idea he was going through those struggles.

Very sad story and should be a cautionary tale.

RIP

Edited by Pimphand

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On 1/30/2020 at 6:24 PM, ImissWallyPryor said:

I remember posting back on Hornfans that I wasn’t impressed by blindsided hits because they were like sucker punches. I was ridiculed by a few of the tough guys. 

Watching the recruiting film of an OU LB, Wort or whatever his name was, on Shaggy and it had Wort absolutely blindside a big left tackle 30 yards away from the play after the RB broke loose. Totally up-ended the dude and the hit had absolutely zero impact on the play. I called it a cheap shot and got unanimously negged. "That's how the game is played!" "Gotta keep your head on a swivel!" "This isn't a sport for pussies!" Seems like the only people parroting those lines these days are a bunch of dudes who were physical early bloomers who got a kick out of smashing people smaller than them. And I say that as someone who played for 10 years at all school levels until graduation in a football factory school district. There were dudes who wanted to play the game and there were dudes who wanted to hurt people without consequences.

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On 2/1/2020 at 9:46 AM, Gardner Barnes said:

I’m under management. Once a psych finally diagnosed me with traumatic brain injury and gave proper meds for moods.   But the forgetting stuff is getting worse.  
 

I often am At a place and forget why I am there. Like in an airport or mall or even driving for example. And I panic. 
 

in fact what made me post this was that I forgot to pick up daughter this am and she reminded me twice.  I told her she didn’t and she said check your phone.  
 

I told her ok I would be there. 
 

younall do know how frustrating this is. 

I wish I had seen this earlier so I didn't have to "back quote" from a previous page, but I wanted to let you know that you aren't alone in a lot of those issues.  I turn 49 next Sunday.  I haven't had thoughts of harming myself, but I do sometimes find myself having thoughts of worthlessness after a friend or family member does something minor to me that upsets me.  I'll end up taking whatever slight or offense and mentally blowing it way out of proportion in my own head.  Sometimes to the point that I consider giving up my relationship with whoever might have upset me.  After experiencing this for a while, I've kind of trained myself to recognize when I'm doing it and try to mentally step back and reevaluate things and be more rational, but it's really frustrating and upsetting.

Also, the memory loss thing is really tough.  For me it's mostly short term, small stuff, but I pretty much have to write everything down or that info is gone in minutes if not seconds.  I hate it.  I even have to set reminders on my phone so that I'll remember to go back to work after lunch, or home at quitting time.  One time, after leaving work, I found myself about 45 miles in the wrong direction before I realized that I was supposed to be going home.  That kind of stuff doesn't happen to me often, but it happens.  I'll buy something 2 or 3 times because I forgot I already bought it.  I've even gone to the same movie a night or 2 later because I forgot I had already seen it.  20 years ago, I could retain mountains of data without much effort, but now so much of what I've done in the past is just gone.  It really is frustrating, and to compound it, my neurologist basically told me that there wasn't much they could do for me other than continue to track the progression of my issues.

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On 1/31/2020 at 9:00 PM, Macanudo said:

I'm not minimizing Sneads CTE issues but the article talks about how he transferred to Ole Miss because of all the tradition?  You mean barely being average when Eli was there, being relevant in 1958-1960 and Toomer's Corner?

Wow, he had dain bramage way before the hit against Okie State.

How insecure do you have to be to go off on this particular tangent on this thread?

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On 1/31/2020 at 11:30 AM, Hairy Biped said:

That's a very sad read.  And it's scary for me too.  I played tackle football for 6 years and suffered many injuries, including multiple concussions.  Now I struggle to walk and move about.  My orthopedist calls me the Noah's Ark of injuries because I have 2 of everything.  I was a defensive tackle and played the position very physically, including using my helmet as a weapon every play.  Back then, I was taught to put your facemask in the opponent's earhole when making a tackle and I also used my helmet inflict pain on blockers to help shed the block.  I would come home from games with severe headaches that wouldn't go away.  To go to sleep, I would lay on my back and hum loudly because that was the only way to get the pain to subside.  I thought little of it at the time, but now I have severe memory issues, much like was described in the article.  I used to have a great memory with the ability to retain tons of details.  Now I can't remember what I had for lunch an hour later.  A few years ago I had a MRI and was diagnosed with cerebral atrophy, which is a marker for dementia and possibly CTE.  I loved the experience of playing and still love the game today, but if I had a son, I would be super hesitant to let him play football now.  I'm sure with the information we now have, we can create new technologies and new techniques to mitigate many of the risks, but I'm not sure that even that is enough to make it worth the price you pay down the line.

Question, what is your age, time period played..i.e. 80-85 etc.

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On 1/30/2020 at 6:27 PM, TwiceHorn said:

Sad story.

 

Was watching Last Chance U and some Mississippi codger said they ought to take the face masks off.  Said that would eliminate most of the head-to-head contact and  . . .  some other stuff about how tough guys think they are.  I think he might be right on the former.

I used to think they ought to go back to leather helmets.

It'll immediately force the kids to start protecting their heads rather than use them as a weapon, which will then compel them to keep their heads up in order to see what they're hitting.

And as a side benefit, this will have the unintended consequence of immediately making them better tacklers.

It'll never happen, and honestly probably shouldn't, cause you can still catch a shoulder or a knee on the noggin and get slobberknocked, but getting rid of the facemask and reducing the weaponization potential of the helmet just has to happen if we're gonna minimize so much unnecessary head trauma to tacklers and their targets.

Edited by Augustus

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On 1/31/2020 at 8:36 PM, lemonandaturd said:

CTE is horrible and I hope after evaluation that Jevan was not a victim.    But Sonny Jurgensen is 85 and he had one of those double bar facemasks while Chuck Howley was face planting him on more than one occasion.  Roger Staubach, Fran Tarkenton, Joe Namath, Bradshaw, Montana and many others got hit like that and are still lucid.  Football is a dangerous sport.  Luck or unluck of the draw, I guess.  

Is it possible that some players (for whatever reason) are more susceptible to cte from head injuries.  Speaking from ignorance here and just spitballing.

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Question, what is your age, time period played..i.e. 80-85 etc.

He is 49. I’m 46.

 

I played late 80s - early 90s. He played late 80s. All the same basically. He describes what I go through.

 

He wrote about something I have done also. Arguments result in me shutting down and cutting people out. It’s a side effect of this shit and it takes effort to recognize when it is happening and to stop myself from doing that.

 

I dread becoming a burden. 15 years? Maybe less? As I said at this point I just want to be lucid for a few key moments in my life.

 

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5 minutes ago, Gardner Barnes said:

He is 49. I’m 46.

 

I played late 80s - early 90s. He played late 80s. All the same basically. He describes what I go through.

 

He wrote about something I have done also. Arguments result in me shutting down and cutting people out. It’s a side effect of this shit and it takes effort to recognize when it is happening and to stop myself from doing that.

 

I dread becoming a burden. 15 years? Maybe less? As I said at this point I just want to be lucid for a few key moments in my life.

 

Was just curious because when I played (late 60's-mid 70's) we were taught to play exactly the same way. Your helmet was meant to inflict serious damage.

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This makes me think back on how many times I have slammed my head in either sports or car accidents, did any of these cause a problem with my brain?

RIP to a Longhorn.

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Just now, Rabidhorn said:

This makes me think back on how many times I have slammed my head in either sports or car accidents, did any of these cause a problem with my brain?

RIP to a Longhorn.

Yes, they did. You just have to hope they didn't cause a serious problem.

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1 hour ago, Gardner Barnes said:

He is 49. I’m 46.

 

I played late 80s - early 90s. He played late 80s. All the same basically. He describes what I go through.

 

He wrote about something I have done also. Arguments result in me shutting down and cutting people out. It’s a side effect of this shit and it takes effort to recognize when it is happening and to stop myself from doing that.

 

I dread becoming a burden. 15 years? Maybe less? As I said at this point I just want to be lucid for a few key moments in my life.

 

If you don't mind answering more personal questions; how has this affected your professional career/life? Is it harder to maintain work? Is it like the article about Jevan said where you would be impulsive and maybe just quit a job after one bad day? That is scary too outside of the personal stuff.

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I have a high school senior that recently played his last game of football.  He was a varsity starter on OL for 3 years.  Big kid, moves pretty well.  He was being pursued by smaller schools (FCS and D3), so it's not like there would have been a lot financial help through athletic scholarships.  Anyway, he signed his enlistment papers for the Navy last summer and completely stopped talking with the college recruiters.  We just need to get through a few more weeks of wrestling and I'll be happy.

I have a sophomore that also  is playing football and wrestles.  This one is smaller and plays DB.  There is no way that this boy is going to get any colleges of any size interested in him for football.  Kid plays football like he thinks he's the biggest kid on the field.  I have secretly wished that he would just quit football and focus on wrestling.  I know that there are risks in wrestling, but the violence of the hits that he is involved in with football just seem bigger.  I have held my breath several times over the years with both of these boys on the football field.  A few weeks ago the sophomore told me that he may just quit football all together and focus on wrestling.  Inside I was relieved.

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14 hours ago, Augustus said:

How insecure do you have to be to go off on this particular tangent on this thread?

Not insecure at all.   Just an observation.

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On 2/3/2020 at 3:21 AM, Augustus said:

I used to think they ought to go back to leather helmets.

It'll immediately force the kids to start protecting their heads rather than use them as a weapon, which will then compel them to keep their heads up in order to see what they're hitting.

And as a side benefit, this will have the unintended consequence of immediately making them better tacklers.

It'll never happen, and honestly probably shouldn't, cause you can still catch a shoulder or a knee on the noggin and get slobberknocked, but getting rid of the facemask and reducing the weaponization potential of the helmet just has to happen if we're gonna minimize so much unnecessary head trauma to tacklers and their targets.

I've thought the same things. I've also thought they should completely overhaul how to tackle even if gives more advantages to the offense. I've even had an extreme idea of maybe making a first down 15 or even 20 yards to counteract the offensive advantages. At a minimum, we need to completely erradicate the "bring the pain" or "lay the wood" mentality on defense. Just stop the ballcarrier, the safer the better.

But I get hungup when I recall reading that offensive linemen are most at risk, not because of massive highlight hits, but repetitive rattling of the brain over and over during the game. I don't know much about blocking techniques, so maybe there is a way to fundamentally change how that position works too, but I just don't know. And I think that would cause the game to be completely different if not unrecognizable, even moreso than leather helmets or different forms of tackling.

Edited by 'stache

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One major difference between football and rugby is that giving up a a few yards (or meters, for pedants) when making a tackle in a rugby match is no big deal. In football, you can't afford to give up any yardage when making contact due to the downs system. Thus, hard collisions to stop the ball carrier are basically necessary (otherwise it'll be very difficult to prevent the other team getting a first down and retaining possession of the ball). In rugby, that's not the case and so there's no need to have a major impact when making a tackle.

I played both Union and League (years ago) at 6'2' and around 205. I was the guy designated to stop the other team's ball carrier in penalty situations (where I'd basically be standing motionless and the guy would be coming at me with the ball and a running start). I learned very quickly not to meet him head-on. Instead, I would wrap up as he would pass next to me and then ride him down over 3-4 yards (utilizing weight shifts as in judo). Neither one of us would get hurt this way. In football, though, you can't afford to surrender the YAC. So violent collisions (with or without direct head contact) are essentially mandatory.

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On 2/3/2020 at 3:26 AM, SHOOTER12 said:

Is it possible that some players (for whatever reason) are more susceptible to cte from head injuries.  Speaking from ignorance here and just spitballing.

There has to be a spectrum of susceptibility. We're discussing football, but the sport with the most repetitive head trauma is boxing. The worst damage inflicted is in the Heavyweight class (simple physics). Everyone mentions Ali and his serious mental/neurologic problems, but many championship heavyweights (Foreman, Frazier, the Klitschkos, Lennox Lewis, etc) seem to be absolutely fine. Lewis and the Klitschkos are even known as being pretty intelligent.

On the other hand, several times a year a boxer will end up brain-dead after taking a bad shot in a match. I enjoyed boxing and Muay Thai when I was much younger and think both sports are great for fitness, but I never had any desire to compete due to the concerns about taking one too many shots.

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I know the recruiting at Ole Miss is a tangent, but a big focus of the book Meat Market was on Joe McKnight, who was the hot playmaking running back of that year's high school class. Coach O wanted him at Ole Miss, but didn't want him playing against him for LSU, so he sold USC to recruit the kid hard. Anyway, McKnight died in a shooting accident in 2016, and his google search result has a short bio followed by date of birth, date of death, and 40 yard dash time. The little sidebar to the search result kind of put things in perspective for me, like do we only value the kids as football players?

 

Anyway, different people grieve or react to deaths in different ways. Some people remember the stuff on the field first then the other stuff. I follow Texas football and B12 and SEC from far away so I don't really know the kids from High School.

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I think my head trauma's may be making my manic depression worse, I caught myself today breathing hard and seeing spots after I thought my wife was goading me into a fight. Am I going to do something nuts? I wish I had never read that story.

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24 minutes ago, B00M said:

Thought this ted talk was eye opening

 

Couldn't they get someone who looks a little less like Kevorkian, Jr.?

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4 hours ago, B00M said:

Thought this ted talk was eye opening

 

Awesome, it's good to see folks thinking outside the box...and getting results.

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Damnit, [mention=339]Gardner Barnes[/mention].  That's scary as hell.  Are you getting any kind of specialized treatment or anything beyond just trying to manage yourself?  



Yes. I am under medical management. Once we finally fingered out what was going on it made it a lot easier for everyone in my immediate family.

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Went down a rabbit trail and stumbled on this article, in which Yancey Thigpen (former Steelers, Oilers/Titans WR) kinda throws in a discussion of his struggles at the end of the interview. Relevant portion is below: 

Spoiler

So, what’s been the plan since retirement? Anything specific you’re working on?

Honestly, I’m physically used up. I’m not complaining, but I really don’t do much now. I got pretty beat up while I played and I’m feeling all of it.

I have made some good investment decisions. My three girls keep me busy! I’m retired obviously, but I also invested in some smaller businesses. I don’t do any work as far as those are concerned though.

Basically, I’m a house husband. My wife doesn’t work either though! I have three beautiful girls that demand time with their daddy. And I want to give them all they want and deserve. Well, all they deserve anyway!

And I’ll be honest. I’ve shied away from doing interviews. I haven’t felt comfortable speaking nowadays. Sometimes I lose my focus. My wife will ask me where I’m going with a conversation sometimes. I’m not sure if it’s a concussion thing. I’m getting some help from the NFL. The biggest problem is realizing what the problem is. But I’m working on it now.

https://steelersnow.com/exclusive-with-former-steelers-wr-yancey-thigpen/

 

Edited by KYHorn

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I've began to worry more and more about this, i'm 41  I played until i was 32,  there are legit days when I'll walk into a room and forget why i went in, or forget the name of a friend i spoke to yesterday and have to go into facebook and start scrolling,  little dumb things like that.  not all the time, but it def puts me on notice when i sit there and say,  why the F did i walk into this room.    I assume old age until i read these stories.

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38 minutes ago, Sgt Hulk said:

I've began to worry more and more about this, i'm 41  I played until i was 32,  there are legit days when I'll walk into a room and forget why i went in, or forget the name of a friend i spoke to yesterday and have to go into facebook and start scrolling,  little dumb things like that.  not all the time, but it def puts me on notice when i sit there and say,  why the F did i walk into this room.    I assume old age until i read these stories.

Normal

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