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Are evangelicals just now code word for white nationalists? Given the complete abandonment of their principles to justify their support of Trump, I wonder what is really behind this voting coherent.  

I grew up in small town America where Christianity was rule of law but never met a true evangelical so don’t understand if this group actually exist outside of politics. 

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11 minutes ago, Washpark said:

Are evangelicals just now code word for white nationalists? Given the complete abandonment of their principles to justify their support of Trump, I wonder what is really behind this voting coherent.  

I grew up in small town America where Christianity was rule of law but never met a true evangelical so don’t understand if this group actually exist outside of politics. 

They fucking suck.  

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i consider myself an evangelical but i'm not white nor am i a nationalist.  i haven't even been an american citizen but for 13 years or so.

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Oh goody. Here comes the broad brush on a hijacked term and the usual triggered responses from the usual posters about faith and religion.

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I consider myself an evangelical Christian of the Anglican persuasion.  That means that I don't have to cross my fingers when I recite the Nicene Creed every Sunday.  I'm also no white nationalist. As to our political leaders, we pray for them regularly:

O LORD our Governor, whose glory is in all the world; We commend this nation to thy merciful care, that being guided by thy Providence, we may dwell secure in thy peace. Grant to THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, and to all in Authority, wisdom and strength to know and to do thy will. Fill them with the love of truth and righteousness; and make them ever mindful of their calling to serve this people in thy fear; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who liveth and reigneth with thee and the Holy Ghost, one God, world without end. Amen.

As to any individual politician's personal morality and spiritual life -- that's totally on them and between them and their creator.

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Hey Newdoc. I got all the Evangelical cred you might could ask for. SBC yo. I can quote Scripture and I have the Scofield in the new and old KJV plus others. Does that count? If I am a believer that has disavowed the stance of Jeffress and the son of Graham do I count? Can I now leave the Baptists and go unto  the Methodists or maybe even go all the way and be an Episcopalian? That's still Protestant right? 

Bring it on. let's dance

Edited by cactusflinthead

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I guess I roughly fall under the term if we're talking theology. I didn't vote for trump and consider his election a great moral failing by our country. He's morally unfit for office, corrupt, and generally a disaster. I also greatly dislike the politicization of the church. As bad as it's been for the country, it's much worse for the church. The anti-faith zealots should be rooting for a slow burn of politicized religion; not so much that we turn into the Taliban but enough that we're too busy marginalizing ourselves seeking worldly power to actually be the church.

That said, the mental games you have to play to get from evangelicals largely supported trump to evangelicals are white supremists is pretty substantial. But hey, we all need a good enemy and it's easier if our enemies are somehow less than us.

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5 hours ago, DalTxHornFan said:

I consider myself an evangelical Christian of the Anglican persuasion.  That means that I don't have to cross my fingers when I recite the Nicene Creed every Sunday.  I'm also no white nationalist. As to our political leaders, we pray for them regularly:

O LORD our Governor, whose glory is in all the world; We commend this nation to thy merciful care, that being guided by thy Providence, we may dwell secure in thy peace. Grant to THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, and to all in Authority, wisdom and strength to know and to do thy will. Fill them with the love of truth and righteousness; and make them ever mindful of their calling to serve this people in thy fear; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who liveth and reigneth with thee and the Holy Ghost, one God, world without end. Amen.

As to any individual politician's personal morality and spiritual life -- that's totally on them and between them and their creator.

I didn’t realize that any religion had prayers specifically for a politician.  

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Evangelical is a useless term these days. It’s completely divorced from its historical, theological meaning. 

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3 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

Evangelical is a useless term these days. It’s completely divorced from its historical, theological meaning. 

About a decade or so ago, I noticed a trend where some people started to openly say they were Christian and asking you if you were one. Almost as if they were asking you if you were as good as them.  I know some that would say yes even if they weren’t the best person in the world.  Evangelical seems to have replaced Christian as that term now.

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4 hours ago, Mole said:

I guess I roughly fall under the term if we're talking theology. I didn't vote for trump and consider his election a great moral failing by our country. He's morally unfit for office, corrupt, and generally a disaster. I also greatly dislike the politicization of the church. As bad as it's been for the country, it's much worse for the church. The anti-faith zealots should be rooting for a slow burn of politicized religion; not so much that we turn into the Taliban but enough that we're too busy marginalizing ourselves seeking worldly power to actually be the church.

That said, the mental games you have to play to get from evangelicals largely supported trump to evangelicals are white supremists is pretty substantial. But hey, we all need a good enemy and it's easier if our enemies are somehow less than us.

You ever hear of cowboy church?

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5 hours ago, cactusflinthead said:

Hey Newdoc. I got all the Evangelical cred you might could ask for. SBC yo. I can quote Scripture and I have the Scofield in the new and old KJV plus others. Does that count? If I am a believer that has disavowed the stance of Jeffress and the son of Graham do I count? Can I now leave the Baptists and go unto  the Methodists or maybe even go all the way and be an Episcopalian? That's still Protestant right? 

Bring it on. let's dance

The biggest difference between Baptists and Methodists, is the Methodists will say “hi” to each other in the liquor store. 

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I love how “evangelical” has become a dirty word. 

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Belief in supernatural ghosts or "spirits" who perform supernatural actions?

Have a local leader who preaches to you?

Give your money to it?

 

Yeah, you bitches in a cult. 

Evangelicals are just the cults that try to convince you and themselves that Jesus was white even though the dude was born in the middle east 2000 years ago. 

Edited by In10se

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11 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

I love how “evangelical” has become a dirty word. 

It should, since so many sold out to hop on the Trump train.

My wife goes to a large Baptist church, which means I occasionally do.  Plenty of them, you can tell they know that Trump is not a good person, is not much of a Christian, etc., but they are too locked into team politics to critically analyze him.

edit: On the other hand, plenty of people I talk to 1-on-1 are not comfortable with Trump and acknowledge his flaws.   But getting them to say it publicly is impossible.  And this is a church with large immigrant populations (they have a couple of services for Spanish and Korean speakers), with a lot of members who spend time and/or money supporting missions in South America, Africa, and India.  

Edited by atomheartbevo

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4 minutes ago, In10se said:

Belief in supernatural ghosts or "spirits" who perform supernatural actions?

Have a local leader who preaches to you?

Give your money to it?

 

Yeah, you bitches in a cult. 

Evangelicals are just the cults that try to convince you and themselves that Jesus was white even though the dude was born in the middle east 2000 years ago. 

This is a strong word count - to - retard comments ratio. 

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It's been hijacked by holier than thou types IMO. Grew up in a family with very straight forward religious views yet they never foisted those views on others, they didn't look down on others who didn't share their faith, they didn't preach to people. 

Fast forward to today and part of my family is that class of evangelicals who do think they're better than others because they're Christians, they preach incessantly, they never miss an opportunity to make everything about religion, they look down on people who drink (I'm the fucking devil). 

I can't speak to why trump gets a pass, but part of it is the anti christian vibe the DNC emits, and it does, so you can save the posts denying that fact.  

 

PRO TIP:  I'm atheistic now so this isn't a christian diatribe.

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1 minute ago, Rex Kramer said:

This is a strong word count - to - retard comments ratio. 

Truth hurts sometimes but it's still the truth.

It's ok though you can feel free to keep using supernatural forces to rationalize all your shitty beliefs and actions because it's what humans do best. Have at it but don't waste my time trying to tell me about it. 

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Trump doesn’t get any pass from me or anyone I know, all of whom are evangelicals. 

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1 minute ago, Rex Kramer said:

Trump doesn’t get any pass from me or anyone I know, all of whom are evangelicals. 

So in the next elections you and everyone you know are voting democrat? 

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Just now, In10se said:

Truth hurts sometimes but it's still the truth.

It's ok though you can feel free to keep using supernatural forces to rationalize all your shitty beliefs and actions because it's what humans do best. Have at it but don't waste my time trying to tell me about it. 

What makes you think I have any desire to tell you about it?  

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Just now, In10se said:

So in the next elections you and everyone you know are voting democrat? 

Absolutely not. I just won’t vote again if trump is running. Midterms and other elections, vote Dem?  Lulz. 

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2 minutes ago, In10se said:

Truth hurts sometimes but it's still the truth.

It's ok though you can feel free to keep using supernatural forces to rationalize all your shitty beliefs and actions because it's what humans do best. Have at it but don't waste my time trying to tell me about it. 

Your idiotic, ignorant, and  broad brush stroke comments aren't worth even debating. You continue being the ass wipe you've been since day one here.

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So in the next elections you and everyone you know are voting democrat? 

So it is that simple? I’m a Christian and don’t agree with Trump on numerous levels, so I must vote Democrat? Did you forget who the other candidate was?

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13 minutes ago, In10se said:

Truth hurts sometimes but it's still the truth.

It's ok though you can feel free to keep using supernatural forces to rationalize all your shitty beliefs and actions because it's what humans do best. Have at it but don't waste my time trying to tell me about it. 

Didn’t a female shaggy poster marry you only never to be heard from again?  How did that work out?

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7 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Absolutely not. I just won’t vote again if trump is running. Midterms and other elections, vote Dem?  Lulz. 

Inaction is condoning and giving him a pass. 

"Yet they did not listen or incline their ears, but stiffened their necks in order not to listen or take correction" - Jeremiah 17:23

"You shall speak all these words to them, but they will not listen to you; and you shall call to them, but they will not answer you. "You shall say to them, 'This is the nation that did not obey the voice of the LORD their God or accept correction; truth has perished and has been cut off from their mouth" - Jeremiah 7:27

Even your own holy book you pay no attention to is calling you on your bullshit. 

 

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2 minutes ago, T’Boo Ted Marshall said:


So it is that simple? I’m a Christian and don’t agree with Trump on numerous levels, so I must vote Democrat? Did you forget who the other candidate was?

The anti christ.

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2 minutes ago, In10se said:

Inaction is condoning and giving him a pass. 

"Yet they did not listen or incline their ears, but stiffened their necks in order not to listen or take correction" - Jeremiah 17:23

"You shall speak all these words to them, but they will not listen to you; and you shall call to them, but they will not answer you. "You shall say to them, 'This is the nation that did not obey the voice of the LORD their God or accept correction; truth has perished and has been cut off from their mouth" - Jeremiah 7:27

Even your own holy book you pay no attention to is calling you on your bullshit. 

 

I'm surprised you didn't burst into flames just typing those words.

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There’s a hell of a lot of room between ignoring a correlation and blanket application of the term

 

also fuck Robert Jeffress

Edited by Sawbonz

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4 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

There have been multiple studies showing the correlation between support for Trump and white racial grievance.  And there is plenty of obvious correlation between support for Trump and white evangelical Christians.    And with a number of high-profile white evangelical Trump supporters (e.g., Robert Jeffress), their white nationalism is manifest.

And let's be real honest here--most of the mainline protestant churches split over the issue of race/civil rights/slavery.  Along the way, the "southern" brand of those churches--whether it be Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist--became far more "evangelical" (at least as we understand the term in common parlance).  So the notion that evangelical churches are closely tied to racism has a serious historical foundation.

So while there are plenty of people who go to evangelical churches who don't have a racist bone in their body, I think it's absurd to ignore the correlation.

The catholic religion has broken off into so many sub categories based on political squabbles over the centuries that I can't believe much of it even ties back into the word of Jesus at this point. There are few exceptions but for the vast majority it's become a social club where the words themselves are not to be heeded and the example of Christ is not to be followed. 

Edited by JohnRedHorn

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36 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I can't speak to why trump gets a pass, but part of it is the anti christian vibe the DNC emits, and it does, so you can save the posts denying that fact.  

HUH

Edited by Shenanigans

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3 minutes ago, Shenanigans said:

HUH

And you think the DNC is pro christian ? For sure lots of democrats are christians or people of other faiths, but a large segment of the DNC is anti religion.  You think otherwise ?

Edited by Onboard 2.0

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1 hour ago, Rex Kramer said:

I love how “evangelical” has become a dirty word. 

They brought it upon themselves. When their "leaders" are guys like Robert Jeffress and Billy Graham Jr., then you get what you get.

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12 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

And you think the DNC is pro christian ? For sure lots of democrats are christians or people of other faiths, but a large segment of the DNC is anti religion.  You think otherwise ?

No lol. I feel that they are pretty neutral when it comes to religion. Far from being ANTI-christian.

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26 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

And you think the DNC is pro christian ? For sure lots of democrats are christians or people of other faiths, but a large segment of the DNC is anti religion.  You think otherwise ?

I don't think the Democratic Party as an institution is pro-Christian.  Nor do I think it is anti-Christian or anti-religion.  I think there are Democrats who may be anti-religion, but that isn't reflected either in the party's platform or in its officeholders.  And there are a lot more Democrats who are practicing Christians.

The conclusion that the Democratic Party is "anti-Christian," however, reflects an idiosyncrasy of modern evangelical Christianity--they honestly think that anything other than total obsequiousness to their goals constitutes persecution.  If you're not 100% in agreement with their agenda--many aspects of which most people in America find odious--then you're "anti-Christian."  So from that weird point of view that has nothing to do with reality, ok--yeah, maybe the Democratic Party is "anti-Christian."

Edited by Ghost of LL

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The only point on which you can argue the modern DNC platform is anti-Christian is its stance on abortion. The only point on which you can argue the modern RNC is pro-Christian is its stance on abortion 

Edited by Sawbonz

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Great posts in this thread, especially Ghost. Good stuff.

Onboard man. You started off with a quality post and then degenerated into retardation with the whole Christian victimhood crap again. There's about as much weight to the D's being anti-Christian as there is to the mythical war on Christmas. 

I agree that the term evangelical has been unfairly hijacked, but that happens. 

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2 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

About a decade or so ago, I noticed a trend where some people started to openly say they were Christian and asking you if you were one. Almost as if they were asking you if you were as good as them.  I know some that would say yes even if they weren’t the best person in the world. 

"blessed are the poor in spirit" and "blessed are those who mourn" speak to the realization of a Christian's depravity and the subsequent recognition of divine grace to be rescued.  by definition a Christian knows he is a human wreck.  

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

It's been hijacked by holier than thou types IMO. Grew up in a family with very straight forward religious views yet they never foisted those views on others, they didn't look down on others who didn't share their faith, they didn't preach to people. 

Fast forward to today and part of my family is that class of evangelicals who do think they're better than others because they're Christians, they preach incessantly, they never miss an opportunity to make everything about religion, they look down on people who drink (I'm the fucking devil). 

I can't speak to why trump gets a pass, but part of it is the anti christian vibe the DNC emits, and it does, so you can save the posts denying that fact.  

 

PRO TIP:  I'm atheistic now so this isn't a christian diatribe.

as evidenced from that first quote i think it's also influenced by non-Christians believing Christians should be different - which isn't wrong in that Jesus commands us to be holy-  and then ridiculing Christians when we're not perfect.  

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I've related this before, but might as well relate it again.

I grew up Catholic and went to Catholic schools until I went to college.  My wife and I visited and spent time at several protestant congregations before settling on a denomination that we're both heavily involved with nowadays.  I grew up in a heavily Jewish part of town, and ran around with a bunch of Jewish families.  I grew up in multicultural Houston, and spent a good amount of time with people from an even broader swath of cultures and faith.

Without question, the MEANEST people I have ever had to deal with in my life have been the showy type of "evangelical Christians."  And I don't just mean once or twice, I mean consistently.  From nearly 50 years of data-gathering, if you were to ask me which cultural and faith demographic in this country is just plain the meanest, I wouldn't hesitate to tell you 'fundagelicals."  And now, we see the culmination of the marriage of that "faith" and politics in a political movement that CELEBRATES meanness, name-calling, etc.

If Christianity was a "product," then the folks who have most loudly claimed the "brand" have all but destroyed its reputation among all of the kind of folks we'd like to see consuming it.  In short, if you're a kind, decent person, living "the way" that the Gospels teach (because that's what Christianity is -- it's a WAY -- it's not a magic ticket where you just shout "I love Jesus!" and you're in)....then you want NOTHING to do with the current brand.

And now, I think that might be okay.  Christianity destroyed itself by becoming a cult of worship of self, and its institutions.  If they all fall and burn, let them.  The Gospel will survive.  The way will survive.  And we'll start over.

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2 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

You ever hear of cowboy church?

Speaking of, I'm sure most are legit, but I know of a few instances where a "cowboy church" was formed to avoid paying property taxes.

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This is all you need to know about evangelicals:

Quote

White evangelical support of Donald Trump is at an all-time high, according to a new study. The poll, conducted by the Public Religion Research Institute in March, found that a full 75 percent of white evangelicals surveyed had a positive opinion of Donald Trump, compared to just 22 percent holding an unfavorable view. Among white evangelical men, that number is even higher — 81 percent — while 71 percent of white evangelical women also view Trump favorably. The poll has been tracking Trump’s ratings since he first became a Republican primary candidate in March 2015.

Given that 81 percent of white evangelical voters voted for Trump, these latest findings suggest that the well-document turmoil of Trump’s presidency has done little to dissuade his core supporters. Nor are his supporters necessarily banking on the only Republican option out there: According to the poll, 69 percent of white evangelicals would prefer Trump, rather than another Republican candidate, as the 2020 presidential nominee.

It's not simply a marriage of political convenience. They love Trump because he's a piece of shit who is cruel to all the right people.

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20 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

"blessed are the poor in spirit" and "blessed are those who mourn" speak to the realization of a Christian's depravity and the subsequent recognition of divine grace to be rescued.  by definition a Christian knows he is a human wreck.  

as evidenced from that first quote i think it's also influenced by non-Christians believing Christians should be different - which isn't wrong in that Jesus commands us to be holy-  and then ridiculing Christians when we're not perfect.  

We don't ridicule certain Christians for failing to be perfect, we ridicule them for being viciously cruel assholes.

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10 hours ago, Washpark said:

Are evangelicals just now code word for white nationalists? Given the complete abandonment of their principles to justify their support of Trump, I wonder what is really behind this voting coherent.  

I grew up in small town America where Christianity was rule of law but never met a true evangelical so don’t understand if this group actually exist outside of politics. 

is it interesting that they support Trump? 

IMO evangelicals are just like the rest of America. Holding their nose when it benefits them. They aren't something different to me at all - except for the one small thing about wishing for the end of times. thats the scary part.

i'll say this a million times. give everyone a seat at the table. bring everyone to the debate. let them air their visions in public. that would really let us find common ground and also give the weird cliques in our society a chance to show themselves in public. 

some day....

giphy.gif

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31 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I've related this before, but might as well relate it again.

I grew up Catholic and went to Catholic schools until I went to college.  My wife and I visited and spent time at several protestant congregations before settling on a denomination that we're both heavily involved with nowadays.  I grew up in a heavily Jewish part of town, and ran around with a bunch of Jewish families.  I grew up in multicultural Houston, and spent a good amount of time with people from an even broader swath of cultures and faith.

Without question, the MEANEST people I have ever had to deal with in my life have been the showy type of "evangelical Christians."  And I don't just mean once or twice, I mean consistently.  From nearly 50 years of data-gathering, if you were to ask me which cultural and faith demographic in this country is just plain the meanest, I wouldn't hesitate to tell you 'fundagelicals."  And now, we see the culmination of the marriage of that "faith" and politics in a political movement that CELEBRATES meanness, name-calling, etc.

If Christianity was a "product," then the folks who have most loudly claimed the "brand" have all but destroyed its reputation among all of the kind of folks we'd like to see consuming it.  In short, if you're a kind, decent person, living "the way" that the Gospels teach (because that's what Christianity is -- it's a WAY -- it's not a magic ticket where you just shout "I love Jesus!" and you're in)....then you want NOTHING to do with the current brand.

And now, I think that might be okay.  Christianity destroyed itself by becoming a cult of worship of self, and its institutions.  If they all fall and burn, let them.  The Gospel will survive.  The way will survive.  And we'll start over.

So much this. The meanest people I've ever met in my life are hard core christians and coincidentally some of the nicest are agnostic/atheist.  

 

And for anybody on this thread to complain about white christians being "persecuted", you all fucking deserve it. The pedophile Roy Moore's most solid base is/was white evangelical christians. If over 80% of your people support a pedophile, the criticism is overly deserved. Don't complain about it, work to fix it.   https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/politics/alabama-exit-polls/?utm_term=.718ace030ad3

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2 hours ago, Rex Kramer said:

I love how “evangelical” has become a dirty word. 

and why do you think that is?

evangelical is what christ calls christians to be. spread the good news and all that. 

but what evangelicals have become in america is something very different, especially when we approach it from a political standpoint. it's become a self-identified voting bloc, and, similarly to traditional black churches, preach politics from the pulpit.

but also, this is why:

Quote

White evangelical support of Donald Trump is at an all-time high, according to a new study. The poll, conducted by the Public Religion Research Institute in March, found that a full 75 percent of white evangelicals surveyed had a positive opinion of Donald Trump, compared to just 22 percent holding an unfavorable view. Among white evangelical men, that number is even higher — 81 percent

trump is a horrible, odious, sinful entity. he's the polar opposite from evangelical christian. and yet they've warped their world view to support him. it's uncanny. and it's part of the reason that evangelical has become a dirty word. it's because evangelicals like to lie in the dirt. they played themselves.

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49 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And now, I think that might be okay.  Christianity destroyed itself by becoming a cult of worship of self, and its institutions.  If they all fall and burn, let them.  The Gospel will survive.  The way will survive.  And we'll start over.

Christianity this side of the millennial kingdom was never meant to be the popular choice.  it's supposed to be counter-cultural.  it's supposed to be radical.  and the Bible is exceedingly clear, few actually live and follow the true way.

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11 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

Christianity this side of the millennial kingdom was never meant to be the popular choice.  it's supposed to be counter-cultural.  it's supposed to be radical.  and the Bible is exceedingly clear, few actually live and follow the true way.

The thing that's supposed to be radical is the whole "love your fellow man" thing. The goal isn't to be "radical" no matter what is considered radical for the times. NAMBLA is radical. Should evangelicals support NAMBLA?

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OK- lots of thoughts here, and they may not be linear. What else is new.

  • "Evangelical" has become synonymous with "religious right" or "moral majority" in the common nomenclature. This is due, in part, to oversimplification on the part of the media. I don't see this as a "lubral conspiraceee", but as a way to talk about an issue or a group of people in a soundbite culture. We do the same with "Catholics" and "Muslims" and "Aggies" (although that latter one is probably dead on).
  • Doing so, though, denies that a good number of persons of color who are Christians hold to a faith that would meet all of the markers of "Evangelicalism". And, many Latino, Asian, and African American Christians that I know would have called themselves evangelical prior to 2016.
  • The post-election discussion of evangelical voting rates, though, pushed many of these people away from doing this. First, media reports conflated "evangelical" with "white evangelical" and disregarded these other voices. Additionally, Christians of color looked at their white "family" and have said "Nope", and moved away from the label that personified both. Rightfully so.
  • As has been mentioned here, there are a lot of people who would consider themselves liberal/left/progressive/democrats and also evangelicals (although they too are stepping away from that nomenclature). This includes a number of prominent Christian authors and speakers, including white folks (Shane Claiborne, Jim Wallis, Rachel Held Evans). Here's an interesting book on this discussion.
  • While the 2016 election has obviously been a significant event in this process, I would also highlight that the 2000 election (hanging chads and all) led to some of the foundations for the current state of affairs. W's "Compassionate Conservatism" and evangelical faith became a target for people frustrated with the election's results. The events of 9/11 also exacerbated this: the anti-muslim sentiment and the seeming hypocrisy of "compassionate conservatism" rushing the nation into War certainly didn't help.
  • Finally, I think it's important to point out that while "evangelicalism" (as it means "religious right") may not be synonymous with white nationalism, there's an enormous legacy of racism at the core of the evangelical engagement with politics. This article is a great summary: Real Origins of the Religious RightThe "pro-life" plank that everyone points to was a secondary element to this political move... the primary motivators were segregation and money.  'Merica.

That's all I've got... I'll go back to my regularly scheduled non-sequiturs over in the Lulz forum now.

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