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Vic Mackey

30 For 30 On Michael Jordan: The Last Dance

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Another thing about the Jordan vs Lebron argument that always baffled me is Jordan getting a pass for all his playoff failures outside the 6 Finals appearances. Lebron gets trashed for his Finals record and losing in the Finals. No mention at all of Jordan's playoff failures. It's like he only played for 6 years and was 6 for 6. He was 6 for 6 in terms of Finals but how many seasons did he play outside of that where he was bounced early or didn't make it? I'd rather make the Finals and lose than lose in the first few rounds.


He sure didn’t get a pass during the Pistons/Bad Boy era. I’m sure an episode will be dedicated to this.

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6 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

This is great for me because my vivid memories of Jordan started in 94-95. I was 10 during that season. When Orlando beat him. Then he had his second 3peat from 96-98. That's the Jordan I remember. And then his Wizards tenure. I didn't watch him in the 80s when he had to pay his dues or his first 3 peat days. 

 

Son of a bitch, you just made me feel older than Methuselah...

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Vic Mackey said:

And any question that Jordan needed Pippen's help should put to rest. He did without any doubt. He even said so much. Most of the Jordan fans claimed he did it all on his own and Lebron is the only one who needed help. Every damn player in the NBA helps. The last time I can remember one single player carrying his team was in 2007 when Lebron took a god awful roster to the Finals. And especially in these days with how everyone is teaming up and stacking the teams. No way in hell you can only do it with one star.

Another thing about the Jordan vs Lebron argument that always baffled me is Jordan getting a pass for all his playoff failures outside the 6 Finals appearances. Lebron gets trashed for his Finals record and losing in the Finals. No mention at all of Jordan's playoff failures. It's like he only played for 6 years and was 6 for 6. He was 6 for 6 in terms of Finals but how many seasons did he play outside of that where he was bounced early or didn't make it? I'd rather make the Finals and lose than lose in the first few rounds.

LeBron quit on the court.

Jordan NEVER fucking did.

 

That's all you need to know.

Edited by Iceman

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Late 80’s Jordan was the most entertaining Jordan.  He was at the absolute peak of his athletic ability and had absolutely no regard for his health.   It was a magical thing to watch, and I am eternally grateful that a lot of the Bulls games were on WGN.  The WGN thing is often overlooked in telling the Jordan story, but much like the Cubs/WGN and Braves/TBS,  those teams and players benefited tremendously from having their games broadcast nationally when that was not the norm.

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Did anyone else think Jordan's eyes were kind of jaundiced in the present day interviews? Also, college/draft Jordan sounded completely different- he sounded unsure, soft-spoken, and kind of stumbled on his words. His confidence and killer-drive completely changed his demeanor after that first season.

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4 minutes ago, TaxMaster said:

Did anyone else think Jordan's eyes were kind of significantly jaundiced in the present day interviews? Also, college/draft Jordan sounded completely different- he sounded unsure, soft-spoken, and kind of stumbled on his words. His confidence and killer-drive completely changed his demeanor after that first season.

yes

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And any question that Jordan needed Pippen's help should put to rest. He did without any doubt. He even said so much. Most of the Jordan fans claimed he did it all on his own and Lebron is the only one who needed help. Every damn player in the NBA helps. The last time I can remember one single player carrying his team was in 2007 when Lebron took a god awful roster to the Finals. And especially in these days with how everyone is teaming up and stacking the teams. No way in hell you can only do it with one star.
Another thing about the Jordan vs Lebron argument that always baffled me is Jordan getting a pass for all his playoff failures outside the 6 Finals appearances. Lebron gets trashed for his Finals record and losing in the Finals. No mention at all of Jordan's playoff failures. It's like he only played for 6 years and was 6 for 6. He was 6 for 6 in terms of Finals but how many seasons did he play outside of that where he was bounced early or didn't make it? I'd rather make the Finals and lose than lose in the first few rounds.

That’s because once Jordan had a team capable of winning titles, that’s what they did. Nobody ever beat them (at least over a full season) and they left on top. Jordan had pretty much no help for the first 5 years of his career. There was also the matter of 3 championship teams in his way early in his career. Once Jordan and that group (Jordan, Pippen, and Jackson) figured out how to win, they were almost unbeatable.

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27 minutes ago, TaxMaster said:

Did anyone else think Jordan's eyes were kind of jaundiced in the present day interviews? Also, college/draft Jordan sounded completely different- he sounded unsure, soft-spoken, and kind of stumbled on his words. His confidence and killer-drive completely changed his demeanor after that first season.

Yall should watch the YouTube links I posted earlier. Jordan had come directly from the golf course with Ahmad Rashad. I imagine that they'd already been drinking, in addition to the glass that the Director alluded to being refilled during the interview.

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One thing Netflix and the like have done to me is now I have an appetite for 2-3 episodes a night of whatever I am interested in....like 5 nights in a row.

This waiting is bullshit.  LOL.

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Finally watching. This is one of those few times I wish I was older so I could have been able to watch this era of college and nba basketball live

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Did anyone else think Jordan's eyes were kind of jaundiced in the present day interviews? Also, college/draft Jordan sounded completely different- he sounded unsure, soft-spoken, and kind of stumbled on his words. His confidence and killer-drive completely changed his demeanor after that first season.

Hidden liver issues?

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14 hours ago, HoffaJimmy said:

 

It was annoying but a way for them to cover basically everything and everyone related to that season, give history on where the players came from, their journey to ending up on that Bulls team, and how it all came together. 

I hated it at first but understand why they are doing it. 

Next episode being the Rodman/Pistons episode should be great. 

Saw this on Twitter holy shit you would never see a roster like this in today's NBA-

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Ron Harper was an unheralded glue guy with the Bulls.  He could score before he went to Chicago to become a defender and ball handler.  He was an excellent addition.    

 

14 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

I get where Reisndorf is coming from on the Pippen contract but that went to extremes.  Pippen ended up being the second best player in the league and at that point, do the right thing.  Jordan could have also held out unless Pippen got paid more.

Jerry was very aware of Pippen's value.  He wanted to get the equivalent to one of the best in the game for Pippen but not pay Pippen as one of the best.  He was dick and Reisndorf was all for it.  Fuck him too.    

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3 hours ago, Zepol87 said:

Finally watching. This is one of those few times I wish I was older so I could have been able to watch this era of college and nba basketball live

Lakers Celtics were fire.  Detroit trashed the place up but they made Jordan stronger both mentally and physically.  They got him focused and I don't know what he would have been without Detroit.  There's definitely going to be an episode on them.   

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Interesting note in the Pippen contract situation.

 

12 hours ago, SHOOTER12 said:

Son of a bitch, you just made me feel older than Methuselah...

Ha. I read that and thought, “Vic’s an old!”

 

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2 minutes ago, Burt Macklin said:

Interesting note in the Pippen contract situation.

 

Ha. I read that and thought, “Vic’s an old!”

 

You're not helping with that crap, damn.

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14 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

Another thing about the Jordan vs Lebron argument that always baffled me is Jordan getting a pass for all his playoff failures

he absolutely did not get a pass, you were just too young to experience the criticism at the time

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ESPN, you can rebrand away from 30 for 30 any time now, given that your network is more than 40 years old and the person who coined that stupid term is long gone, and given that it doesn't actually mean anything outside of that context.

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12 hours ago, crash_davis said:

Yall should watch the YouTube links I posted earlier. Jordan had come directly from the golf course with Ahmad Rashad. I imagine that they'd already been drinking, in addition to the glass that the Director alluded to being refilled during the interview.

I find it interesting that at one point, Jordan told reporters he had "fear of failure" type nightmares where he was literally an alcoholic and had lost everything. Oddly specific fear to express itself in a dream like that. 

Who knows if it's true (it's true that those stories came from Jordan to the reporters, it's not necessarily true that Jordan had nightmares like that)-- Mickey Mantle used to tell a bullshit story about having a nightmare where his tombstone said "BANNED FROM BASEBALL" after the casino business in 1983 but later admitted he made it up. 

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3 hours ago, SwanderedTalent said:

ESPN, you can rebrand away from 30 for 30 any time now, given that your network is more than 40 years old and the person who coined that stupid term is long gone, and given that it doesn't actually mean anything outside of that context.

Maybe they can drive interest by interjecting their political stances into all of their sports commentary...

 

Not sure show titles and window dressing will make a difference for them.  The actual content is all most of us tune in for.

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3 hours ago, SwanderedTalent said:

he absolutely did not get a pass, you were just too young to experience the criticism at the time

 MJ not getting a pass in 1990 is irrelevant to a Jordan vs. Lebron debate.  The question is, do people give him a pass now when comparing the two?

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10 minutes ago, CurlyDumps said:

The question is, do people give him a pass now when comparing the two?

I personally don't think so. The major criticism of Jordan was "you can't win playing the way he plays, he's too much of an individual scorer to win a title". After he won six titles, that criticism stopped, for what are hopefully obvious reasons. That's not getting a pass. 

The criticism of Lebron James wasn't "you can''t win playing the way he plays". The most common criticism* of James was, "the best player should be able to win without changing franchises to stack the deck in his favor". That didn't abate until James went back to Cleveland and won a title, again for obvious reasons. 

I guess other than that, I don't follow the sport closely enough to know if there's some illegitimate criticism of James you feel he's still getting, where Jordan didn't. 

* granted, the other criticism of him I heard a lot was "he's an amazingly talented, completely phony, pretentious mouthbreathing hairplug pussybitch whiner" and that one may have stuck but I'm not addressing it here. 

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Ok, unpopular opinion by an old man yelling at clouds, but Pippen flat out said he exchanged money for long term security because he wanted to take care of his family.  So he got the security, then he's bitching that he's underpaid after his career takes off.

Sure it sucks for him that a top 5 player was getting the 122nd highest contract, but that's like me investing in 100% treasury bonds then bitching about a bull market.

Having said that, the asshole GM could have handled the personal side of UT a little better 

 

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I don't think that Pippen was upset that he had to play out his contract.  He was upset that the organization seemed to show no interest in re-signing him and, in fact, was actively seeking to trade him.  I'd be pretty furious too in his shoes, after giving my employer a better return on investment than he ever could have dreamed of.

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2 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

I don't think that Pippen was upset that he had to play out his contract.  

Yes, he absolutely was. Read Halberstam's "Playing For Keeps", it explains it in a lot more detail than ESPN is going to be able to, even in a ten part series. 

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47 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

I don't think that Pippen was upset that he had to play out his contract.  He was upset that the organization seemed to show no interest in re-signing him and, in fact, was actively seeking to trade him.  I'd be pretty furious too in his shoes, after giving my employer a better return on investment than he ever could have dreamed of.

Fair point.  I get that.  Like I said Krause could have worked on his people skills. 

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The organization should have taken care of him after a few championships and he never should have signed a long term contract. Both are true in this case. Hitting free agency after the lockout was good for him though as he cashed in later in his career. He earned over $100 million in his career, so nobody should feel sorry for him.

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39 minutes ago, Hate said:

The organization should have taken care of him after a few championships and he never should have signed a long term contract. Both are true in this case. Hitting free agency after the lockout was good for him though as he cashed in later in his career. He earned over $100 million in his career, so nobody should feel sorry for him.

He did lose most, if not all of it by being financially irresponsible. Vince Young has nothing on Pippen.

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38 minutes ago, Kermit said:

He did lose most, if not all of it by being financially irresponsible. Vince Young has nothing on Pippen.

Seems like he still has plenty

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1 hour ago, Not a cat said:

Fair point.  I get that.  Like I said Krause could have worked on his people skills. 

Let's not jump to conclusions, Matt.

Krause was invaluable because owners aren't good at dealing with players or coaches. He used his people skills to pick up paychecks (not in person, but his secretary did) and then deliver them (sometimes) to the players. Reinsdorf wouldn't be able to do that.

Krause was good at dealing with people! Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you?

 

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He did lose most, if not all of it by being financially irresponsible. Vince Young has nothing on Pippen.

He got burned bad by a financial advisor who went to prison. He also bought a $5 MM plane that apparently wasn’t flown. He’s in decent financial shape these days.

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1 hour ago, Stunns38 said:


He got burned bad by a financial advisor who went to prison. He also bought a $5 MM plane that apparently wasn’t flown. He’s in decent financial shape these days.

From what I read he gave him 20 million to invest. He’d gotten 8 of that back before the guy went to jail. I wonder how the rest shook out.

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23 minutes ago, Revolution512 said:

From what I read he gave him 20 million to invest. He’d gotten 8 of that back before the guy went to jail. I wonder how the rest shook out.

B5JaUlZ.gif

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From what I read he gave him 20 million to invest. He’d gotten 8 of that back before the guy went to jail. I wonder how the rest shook out.

Cheesecake Factory?

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On 4/20/2020 at 8:07 PM, Don Johnson said:

Jordan would’ve never followed someone like DWade around like a little puppy dog. 

As Jordan said, from his first day on the Bulls he targeted the team captain and went after him. LBJ was perfectly happy to be second fiddle to someone who wasn’t as good as him.  
 

 

Not to pick and it could just be a matter of interpretation, but when he made that statement, I took it as though he was talking about seeking out "other" teams captains. Not necessarily the captain of the current Bulls teams. To me he was talking about his place in the league in general - rather than just that Bulls team. 

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Loved it too.  A few things.

Gambling/Murder- His dad's murder had nothing at all to do with gambling/mafia etc.  It was just random bad luck.  The killers are in prison.  They would have cut a deal if there was more to the story.  Just a shame.

Flu/Hangover- Silly rumor mongering.  He had food poisoning.  He was at the hotel with the crew all evening.  No Vegas runs.  

Krause/Reinsdorf- Hard for me to blame Krause too much.  Krause did not do anything that Reinsdorf didn't want or approve.  The players were a bit passive aggressive going after Krause instead of Reinsdorf.  Agreed that Krause was hard to like and had poor personal skills but he was who he was and Reinsdorf knew exactly what he was getting and it was exactly what he wanted.

Pippen- Again, tough to blame the Bulls for not re-negotiating.  They don't get to renegotiate contracts of players who go bust.  Players' like to say it is just a business when they get all they can for themselves and then get their feelings hurt when the owners act like it is a business.  Plus, the reality was that Pippen was a very, very good NBA player that was great as a number two.  He was not a number one player.  In '97 there were plenty of guys you would take over Pippen including: Ewing, Olajuwan, Malone, Shaq, Barkley etc.  You could build a team around those guys but not Pippen.  Krause actually realized this and was never going to give him a huge deal.  It is certainly arguable that Pippen was under paid late in his contract with the Bulls but then you would have to concede that he was massively over paid after the Bulls.

Phil Jackson- The genius of Phil was not his ability to handle Jordan but his ability to handle everyone else plus the triangle.  The same exists for Poppovitch, Kerr, Riley etc.  They had systems in place that gave the role players a routine.  There was little thinking or ad-libbing.  Very little standing around watching the super star.  Jordan forced out the previous coaches because they were not holding the rest of the team to a high enough standard.  Jordan did not really want to have to demand it from his teammates (although he certainly did) he wanted the coach to do it for him.  Phil was actually really good about demanding excellence from the bit players.  Of course Jordan was still incredibly hard on his teammates in practice.  The only other guy that had that same practice mentality was Magic.

Impossible to know if the championship run would have been able to continue or if they would have won when Jordan went to baseball.  IMO, I think they win in '99 for sure and probably win one of the middle two years.

One thing about Jordan, he was always very, very guarded in his public statements and image while playing.  Never political.  He cultivated an image to maximize his endorsements.  His father's death took a huge toll on him, even though he sort of downplayed it in the media.  Jordan's emotions after the '96 championship are amazing.  His first retirement had nothing to do with gambling at all.  He was tired, having marital issues, his dad was murdered, he was fantastically rich and just wasn't sure he could put in the effort he knew it would require to win it all.  He wasn't willing to play just to cash a check and not be 100%.

Greatest of all time when you combine ability, drive, work ethic, mental toughness and focus.  You sacrifice a lot to succeed at that level.  

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This hits Netflix in July. I wish we could binge watch it now.

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10 hours ago, Horns RD Standard said:

Not to pick and it could just be a matter of interpretation, but when he made that statement, I took it as though he was talking about seeking out "other" teams captains. Not necessarily the captain of the current Bulls teams. To me he was talking about his place in the league in general - rather than just that Bulls team. 

No, he was talking about the team captain of the Bulls, the team he was playing for, and prac-tizin' with every day.

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6 hours ago, sheeeit said:

Loved it too.  A few things.

Gambling/Murder- His dad's murder had nothing at all to do with gambling/mafia etc.  It was just random bad luck.  The killers are in prison.  They would have cut a deal if there was more to the story.  Just a shame.

Flu/Hangover- Silly rumor mongering.  He had food poisoning.  He was at the hotel with the crew all evening.  No Vegas runs.  

Krause/Reinsdorf- Hard for me to blame Krause too much.  Krause did not do anything that Reinsdorf didn't want or approve.  The players were a bit passive aggressive going after Krause instead of Reinsdorf.  Agreed that Krause was hard to like and had poor personal skills but he was who he was and Reinsdorf knew exactly what he was getting and it was exactly what he wanted.

Pippen- Again, tough to blame the Bulls for not re-negotiating.  They don't get to renegotiate contracts of players who go bust.  Players' like to say it is just a business when they get all they can for themselves and then get their feelings hurt when the owners act like it is a business.  Plus, the reality was that Pippen was a very, very good NBA player that was great as a number two.  He was not a number one player.  In '97 there were plenty of guys you would take over Pippen including: Ewing, Olajuwan, Malone, Shaq, Barkley etc.  You could build a team around those guys but not Pippen.  Krause actually realized this and was never going to give him a huge deal.  It is certainly arguable that Pippen was under paid late in his contract with the Bulls but then you would have to concede that he was massively over paid after the Bulls.

Phil Jackson- The genius of Phil was not his ability to handle Jordan but his ability to handle everyone else plus the triangle.  The same exists for Poppovitch, Kerr, Riley etc.  They had systems in place that gave the role players a routine.  There was little thinking or ad-libbing.  Very little standing around watching the super star.  Jordan forced out the previous coaches because they were not holding the rest of the team to a high enough standard.  Jordan did not really want to have to demand it from his teammates (although he certainly did) he wanted the coach to do it for him.  Phil was actually really good about demanding excellence from the bit players.  Of course Jordan was still incredibly hard on his teammates in practice.  The only other guy that had that same practice mentality was Magic.

Impossible to know if the championship run would have been able to continue or if they would have won when Jordan went to baseball.  IMO, I think they win in '99 for sure and probably win one of the middle two years.

One thing about Jordan, he was always very, very guarded in his public statements and image while playing.  Never political.  He cultivated an image to maximize his endorsements.  His father's death took a huge toll on him, even though he sort of downplayed it in the media.  Jordan's emotions after the '96 championship are amazing.  His first retirement had nothing to do with gambling at all.  He was tired, having marital issues, his dad was murdered, he was fantastically rich and just wasn't sure he could put in the effort he knew it would require to win it all.  He wasn't willing to play just to cash a check and not be 100%.

Greatest of all time when you combine ability, drive, work ethic, mental toughness and focus.  You sacrifice a lot to succeed at that level.  

Great post.

Agree about the dad's murder.  A testament to his background and character that he chose to get a couple hours sleep in his car instead of just getting a hotel room (which probably never crossed his mind).  I'm sure that just weighs on MJ to this day.

Disagree a little bit on Krause.  Reisndorf is a supreme prick and is obviously throwing Krause under the bus in this documentary.  But Krause's representation in the doc is fair.

Very astute comment on Pippen.  In the doc, Jackson alludes to the fact that at one point Scottie may have been the second best player in the NBA (and he may not have been wrong), but to your point, Scottie could never carry a team.  You couldn't build a team around him.  There is no one in NBA history that can touch him as a No. 2, but that's what he was, a No. 2.

Another astute comment on Jackson. I had never really thought about his coaching on those terms, but I think you are right.

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On 4/21/2020 at 3:17 PM, SwanderedTalent said:

Yes, he absolutely was. Read Halberstam's "Playing For Keeps", it explains it in a lot more detail than ESPN is going to be able to, even in a ten part series. 

I guess I mean that, if the Jerrys had assured him that they were going to take care of him after he played out his bargain contract (like they did with MJ), Scottie would have been much more content making "peanuts." But they offered him no light at the end of the tunnel.

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I never understood how people failed to understand that having your father murdered may have an effect on you and cause you to reevaluate your life. By the time his father was murdered Jordan was worth well over 100 million dollars. What sort of gambling debt could have forced his creditors to kill his father? That shit makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. 

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5 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

I guess I mean that, if the Jerrys had assured him that they were going to take care of him after he played out his bargain contract (like they did with MJ), Scottie would have been much more content making "peanuts." But they offered him no light at the end of the tunnel.

Maybe, but it never seemed to me like the players trusted anything out of Krause's mouth. 

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

By the time his father was murdered Jordan was worth well over 100 million dollars. What sort of gambling debt could have forced his creditors to kill his father? 

101 million dollars?

But I agree. In all my years of watching TV and movies, I am pretty sure that Jordan's father is worth more to the gamblers alive and under threat than dead because having Michael Jordan shaving points could have been worth a lot. That far-fetched scenario makes more sense to me than just outright killing him. 

 

Edited by SwanderedTalent

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

I never understood how people failed to understand that having your father murdered may have an effect on you and cause you to reevaluate your life. By the time his father was murdered Jordan was worth well over 100 million dollars. What sort of gambling debt could have forced his creditors to kill his father? That shit makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. 

Didn’t it say last Sunday night ( or maybe I read it online while researching the theories last weekend?) that MJ shorted one of his gambling debts to the tune of about 1-to-3 versus what was allegedly owed.  At a certain point, gambling creditors are gonna make a statement if you feel like you can take liberties with them, regardless of capacity to pay.

Kill dad.  Then mom’s next, mofo.   Y’all are thinking waaaay too nicely for a bookmaker/ crime thug.

Edited by Iceman

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