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Game of Thrones Season 8 (Bookfags unite)


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22 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Letting R + L = J story out to the public could lead to some unexpected results. It brings up that the Robert's Revolution was basically a big lie that perhaps even Ned knew about. 

 

the red viper and littlefinger both knew it.  red viper almost explicitly says it meeting with tyrion, and littlefinger just letting sansa tell the conventional wisdom while nodding in that 'oh you still believe in santa' kinda way in the winterfell crypt when he gives her to the boltons. 

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1 hour ago, elfenix said:

the red viper and littlefinger both knew it.  red viper almost explicitly says it meeting with tyrion, and littlefinger just letting sansa tell the conventional wisdom while nodding in that 'oh you still believe in santa' kinda way in the winterfell crypt when he gives her to the boltons. 

The Red Viper and Littlefinger knew that R+L=J?  I don't think so.  

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Yeah, how do you figure that? Hell, if Littlefinger knew, there is no way he doesn't play that angle long before.

R+L=J is the ultimate secret of the story, no one alive in the current story know about it (until Sam and Bran) except Ned (and he's dead) and Howland Reed.

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2 hours ago, elfenix said:

the red viper and littlefinger both knew it.  red viper almost explicitly says it meeting with tyrion, and littlefinger just letting sansa tell the conventional wisdom while nodding in that 'oh you still believe in santa' kinda way in the winterfell crypt when he gives her to the boltons. 

Counter-point: the way you describe Littlefinger is the way he acts in every scene.

I’m curious about the Red Viper scene.  Do you remember what he said?  I seem to remember him implying he knew the kidnap/rape story was a load, but nothing about a love child.

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True but we do not know if he got the memo of the annulment and marriage to Lyanna. His sister was in KL, he may have been down in Dorne and Lyanna was in the TOJ(likely where the maester performed both). Also, there was a little war going on. He definitely would have known about Lyanna being at the TOJ, as it was in their land.

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2 hours ago, Go Pokes said:

The Red Viper and Littlefinger knew that R+L=J?  I don't think so.  

they both knew that R and L were a thing.  maybe not about J.  "and beautiful noble rheagar targaryen left her for another woman."  you don't say left for another woman if you think he was raping her. 

 

 

baelish clearly doesn't buy the story either.

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Yeah, what I do not think is likely though, is that either of them knew that Jon was the product of that relationship or that they made it official. Oh well, unless Bran has a time wasting vision, during the last 5 episodes, we will never know for sure. That is unless the fat man writes it in the books that he will likely need a posthumous ghost writer to finish.

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33 minutes ago, elfenix said:

they both knew that R and L were a thing.  maybe not about J.  "and beautiful noble rheagar targaryen left her for another woman."  you don't say left for another woman if you think he was raping her. 

 

 

baelish clearly doesn't buy the story either.

I'm not sure why you think either of these scenes are proof that RV and LF knew they were actually in love.  Feels like you're trying to interpret the scenes in a specific way to support your belief.  I'm going to go ahead and stick with what everybody else in the world believe about the situation.  

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2 hours ago, seven said:

Lots of people know that lyanna wasn't kidnapped and raped by some lunatic crazed rheagar. I don't think anyone ever had any idea about Jon though. 

Who are these people?  As far as we know, it was pretty much limited to R, L,  and the Maester who married them.  Or maybe he was a septon.   

 

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It's always been my impression that r + l was an open secret to the nobility in the south but not really brought up because now Bobby is king and he gets to make the history. 

I could be wrong. 

To be clear, I don't mean them getting secretly married or having Jon. I'm taking strictly about the kidnapped and raped story. 

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I need to interject a moment since I'm several hours behind the discussion on Jon riding the dragon: the directors made a distinct choice in favor of the dragon tilting its back toward the castle to show Varys, Tyrion, and that other dude that it was Jon piloting the dragon during the flyby.

That leads me to the conclusion that: a) it wasn't a throw-away line in the epilogue by one of the directors to explicitly state that only Targs can fly dragons and b) Dany doesn't know that there's a rule that only Targs can fly dragons, which is plausible seeing that she was raised in Essos with a shit brother obsessed about a golden crown and didn't learn family lore.

The witnesses to this feat, who have knowledge about the only-Targs-can-fly-dragons thing, will be pivotal in providing proof that Jon is a Targ.

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It's always been my impression that r + l was an open secret to the nobility in the south but not really brought up because now Bobby is king and he gets to make the history. 
I could be wrong. 
To be clear, I don't mean them getting secretly married or having Jon. I'm taking strictly about the kidnapped and raped story. 


You might be right. I don’t remember any mention of that in the books or show but I easily might have missed some off-hand comment.
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Jesus christ people,  no one knew R+L was J. He would have been dead or used as a pawn long before if that was true. People might have questioned whether lyanna didn't go unwillingly but no one imagined that rhaegar would have married her, if the red viper really had known he would have murdered ned too.

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Jesus christ people,  no one knew R+L was J. He would have been dead or used as a pawn long before if that was true. People might have questioned whether lyanna didn't go unwillingly but no one imagined that rhaegar would have married her, if the red viper really had known he would have murdered ned too.

Nobody thinks that. The debate is whether R+L was a poorly kept secret.
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14 hours ago, Go Pokes said:


Nobody thinks that. The debate is whether R+L was a poorly kept secret.

R + L =J is not widely known at all, no one suspects it because ned is so honorable.  The only people who know in the books are Howland and most likely some Daynes, including the wet nurse Wyla who is employed by the Daynes.  Some fans think Varys knows but nothing in the text supports that, and i think it would undercut Neds story.    

 

I also hope the show doesn't further go down the robert rebellion is a lie road.  Lyanna and Rhaegar may have gotten the ball rolling, but it didn't start until Aerys murdered Brandon and Rickard with mock trials then called for Roberts and Neds head head (without any trials)

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On 4/16/2019 at 3:23 PM, Go Pokes said:

I'm not sure why you think either of these scenes are proof that RV and LF knew they were actually in love.  Feels like you're trying to interpret the scenes in a specific way to support your belief.  I'm going to go ahead and stick with what everybody else in the world believe about the situation.  

Lf clearly knew.  

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I'm just curious how anyone would say that Littlefinger knew. He wasn't a political player until well after Robert's Rebellion, only amassing his wealth and power after Robert was king. He was barely a teen (14-15) when the war happened and wouldn't join the small council until his 20s.

Oberyn just knew that when Rheagar left his sister, it started a war that resulted in her death. Rape or real love, he just knew he left Elia.

I'm not sure that anyone in real power knew what was going on with Rhaegar and Lyanna. They pretty much had vanished during much of the war until Rheagar returned to the Red Keep and then fought at the battle of the Trident.

Sure the maester that married them did. I would venture that the Kingsguard that were guarding the Tower of Joy (Dayne, Whent and Hightower) did too. And the silent sisters with them at the tower as well.

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20 hours ago, Go Pokes said:


Based on something from the books or TV show? Or are you saying that because of the facial expressions he made after she said that?

We're talking about just R + L right?  I doubt he knew about J, but yea, that look on his face and the fact that he was very aware of the history of those times

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16 hours ago, Captain Ron said:

I'm just curious how anyone would say that Littlefinger knew. He wasn't a political player until well after Robert's Rebellion, only amassing his wealth and power after Robert was king. He was barely a teen (14-15) when the war happened and wouldn't join the small council until his 20s.

Oberyn just knew that when Rheagar left his sister, it started a war that resulted in her death. Rape or real love, he just knew he left Elia.

I'm not sure that anyone in real power knew what was going on with Rhaegar and Lyanna. They pretty much had vanished during much of the war until Rheagar returned to the Red Keep and then fought at the battle of the Trident.

Sure the maester that married them did. I would venture that the Kingsguard that were guarding the Tower of Joy (Dayne, Whent and Hightower) did too. And the silent sisters with them at the tower as well.

I think Ned and Rob were barely older than 14.  These weren't 25 year olds we're talking about.  

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53 minutes ago, Barry_McCokiner said:

We're talking about just R + L right?  I doubt he knew about J, but yea, that look on his face and the fact that he was very aware of the history of those times

Correct.  I think we can all agree that nobody alive knew about Jon.  The question is whether or not it was commonly believed that they were in love or if everybody just assumed he abducted and raped her.  I'm with Captain Ron on this one (post 132).  I don't think that look from Littlefinger was anything other than another one of his many creepy looks.  I might be wrong, but I cannot recall a single mention in the books or TV show of it being widely known.  You'd think somewhere in those 3500 pages, the fat man would have at least mentioned that a lot of people knew the truth about R+L.  So until someone quotes a passage from the book or a clip from the show confirming what you are saying, I'm going to believe the opposite.   

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I think a few of the people, at the time, knew about it not being kidnap and rape but all of those are dead now, except for Howland Reed and Bran/Sam thanks to their little meeting last season. Now Jon himself knows. Those last three, they just know based on the show, not the books.

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18 hours ago, Barry_McCokiner said:

I think Ned and Rob were barely older than 14.  These weren't 25 year olds we're talking about.  

I'm not talking about his as as establishing him as too young to know anything. I'm establishing a timeline of him truly being "in the know" within Westeros circles. He wasn't doing anything governmental related until years after Robert's Rebellion. At that point Rheagar and Lyanna were both long dead, so how does he find out about their relationship? 2nd hand stories or reading.

Anyone that knew their relationship was most likely dead. The only person that potentially could know right now alive is Howland Reed. So then we get to the reading.

Which raises a big point - who wrote the histories of Robert's Rebellion? The winners, and to the winning side, the story was always Rheagar kidnapped Lyanna. Where would Petyr have ever gotten the idea that they were in love?

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5 hours ago, Captain Ron said:

I'm not talking about his as as establishing him as too young to know anything. I'm establishing a timeline of him truly being "in the know" within Westeros circles. He wasn't doing anything governmental related until years after Robert's Rebellion. At that point Rheagar and Lyanna were both long dead, so how does he find out about their relationship? 2nd hand stories or reading.

Anyone that knew their relationship was most likely dead. The only person that potentially could know right now alive is Howland Reed. So then we get to the reading.

Which raises a big point - who wrote the histories of Robert's Rebellion? The winners, and to the winning side, the story was always Rheagar kidnapped Lyanna. Where would Petyr have ever gotten the idea that they were in love?

Old Petyr seemed to be good at gathering intel. 

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10 minutes ago, AUS-97HORN said:

so who wants to guess which of our hero's die next week?

Im going with 

Jorah

Grey Worm

Lady Mormont

Davos

Tormund

Gendry

and I am guessing there needs to be a huge surprise death. 

one of the Starks,  or Jamie, or  hell even Dani

Sir brienne.   She isn’t needed to protect Sansa or Arya now. Can’t she her surviving.  She dies alongside tormund.

i don’t see Jon dying, otherwise the whole r+l=j storyline was pointless.

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