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Posted
22 minutes ago, TexEx15 said:

 

2 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Why you @ me?    Because some maniacs killed a bunch of people?

Just stop before it starts. It's the same tired arguments back and forth that gets nowhere. 

If you want to change minds: https://read.gov/aesop/143.html

Posted
Just now, FirstTimeCaller said:

Just stop before it starts. It's the same tired arguments back and forth that gets nowhere

Agreed. Something that would work should be proposed without the pork. Instead, we get tightened up braces and suppressor regs.  Where’s what’s her name and her welcome to America gif? 

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Posted

The blood on the floor in Uvalde really got me... Belongs in a warzone or 3rd world country. But nope, right in the middle of one of the wealthiest states in the wealthiest country in the world.

Posted
4 hours ago, GhostOfTomJoad said:

The picture of the childrens' body bags lined up in the hallway in Uvalde should be made into an xmas card and mailed to every single politician who accepts a dime from the NRA.

I am in. And some billboards in front of their HQ and events. 

Posted
23 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Why you @ me?    Because some maniacs killed a bunch of people?

Just hoping that at some point these people and children’s lives will mean enough that you actually support meaningful change through your vote rather than acting like you do on the internet. For example, voting for a candidate that believes in banning assault weapons rather than one that is beholden to groups like the NRA.

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Posted
19 minutes ago, TexEx15 said:

Just hoping that at some point these people and children’s lives will mean enough that you actually support meaningful change through your vote rather than acting like you do on the internet. For example, voting for a candidate that believes in banning assault weapons rather than one that is beholden to groups like the NRA.

Single issue voting should be discouraged. Hopefully the R’s can get onboard with some of the more sensible restrictions someday.  I fear they will not. 

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Posted (edited)

Just going to put this here, likely to be an unpopular take: a huge number of people are killed by guns in this country in this country each year. While mass shootings are becoming more common with time, only around 2% of gun deaths are from mass shootings. Of the other 98%, more than half are suicides. That’s icky, I know: sad people offed themselves with pistols. Hard to relate to. We had better avoid talking about that one.

I heard somebody say recently that healthy societies argue over distribution. Unhealthy ones argue over recognition. The debate about guns in this country seems to me more about winning culture wars than saving lives and preventing suffering and violence.

I am sorely angry with American Republicans and gun owners generally for fanning the flames of violence and promoting a gun culture or paranoia and agoraphobia while they cry crocodile tears about the mentally ill whom they refuse to care about. But- the catechistic Democrat line of banning AR-15s as a mechanism of preventing mass shootings continues to strike me as mostly performative and non-responsive, in the same way that Ivy League college admissions are a performative and beside the point way to think about affirmative action in education to address racial justice and inequality. 
 

At some point we have to ask ourselves whether we value human life and want to protect it, and to prevent tragedy and human suffering. If we do we will institute strong red flag laws, reform the NFA, control problem products like the AR-15 and hi capacity magazines, and focus our attention on our unaddressed mental health crisis, and nobody seems to be interested. A staffer for a current Democrat office holder tell me they know AR-15s aren’t going anywhere and there’s room for progress on things that would actually move the needle on gun violence but the politics of the base don’t support it in either party. Republican staffers have told me the the same thing.

And honestly, guys- cut the bullshit. Do you even care? It seems to me that if there is a bipartisan consensus about anything in this country, it is that we really don’t want to fix this. We’re too invested in the problem and the opportunities it creates to wave bloody shirts. Enjoy your crime scene porn.

#winning

Edited by Bozo_Casanova
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Posted
18 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Just going to put this here, likely to be an unpopular take: a huge number of people are killed by guns in this country in this country each year. While mass shootings are becoming more common with time, only around 2% of gun deaths are from mass shootings. Of the other 98%, more than half are suicides. That’s icky, I know: sad people offed themselves with pistols. Hard to relate to. We had better avoid talking about that one.

I heard somebody say recently that healthy societies argue over distribution. Unhealthy ones argue over recognition. The debate about guns in this country seems to me more about winning culture wars than saving lives and preventing suffering and violence.

I am sorely angry with American Republicans and gun owners generally for fanning the flames of violence and promoting a gun culture or paranoia and agoraphobia while they cry crocodile tears about the mentally ill whom they refuse to care about. But- the catechistic Democrat line of banning AR-15s as a mechanism of preventing mass shootings continues to strike me as mostly performative and non-responsive, in the same way that Ivy League college admissions are a performative and beside the point way to think about affirmative action in education to address racial justice and inequality. 
 

At some point we have to ask ourselves whether we value human life and want to protect it, and to prevent tragedy and human suffering. If we do we will institute strong red flag laws, reform the NFA, control problem products like the AR-15 and hi capacity magazines, and focus our attention on our unaddressed mental health crisis, and nobody seems to be interested. A staffer for a current Democrat office holder tell me they know AR-15s aren’t going anywhere and there’s room for progress on things that would actually move the needle on gun violence but the politics of the base don’t support it in either party. Republican staffers have told me the the same thing.

And honestly, guys- cut the bullshit. Do you even care? It seems to me that if there is a bipartisan consensus about anything in this country, it is that we really don’t want to fix this. We’re too invested in the problem and the opportunities it creates to wave bloody shirts. Enjoy your crime scene porn.

#winning

Guns are a public health issue. Ban them.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, royiv said:

Guns are a public health issue. Ban them.

“Hell yes!”

- US Senator Beto O’Rourke*
 

 

 

Spoiler

* an explainer for the smoothbrains: I know he didn’t suggest banning guns. He said they would take their AR-15’s, and it cost him the election because it’s a nonstarter. You don’t get to enjoy the privilege of indulging in nonstarters if you are actually serious about gun violence. That’s the joke. 

 

Edited by Bozo_Casanova
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Posted
1 minute ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

“Hell yes!”

- US Senator Beto O’Rourke

 

Fuck off. Your "sensible gun owner" schtick is old. One side owns this crisis. Quit trying to both sides it. People say opinions on the issue can't be changed. They're wrong. I went from a gun owner that supported sensible gun control measures to someone who has disposed of all of his weapons that is now a gun ban absolutist. Why? Because one side won't budge so why should my new side negotiate with terrorists?

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, royiv said:

Fuck off. Your "sensible gun owner" schtick is old. One side owns this crisis. Quit trying to both sides it. People say opinions on the issue can't be changed. They're wrong. I went from a gun owner that supported sensible gun control measures to someone who has disposed of all of his weapons that is now a gun ban absolutist. Why? Because one side won't budge so why should my new side negotiate with terrorists?

You are very serious about this, I can tell. Tell me your very serious and practical path to a gun ban. How many people die of gunshot wounds while we wait?

Edited by Bozo_Casanova
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Posted
39 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

And honestly, guys- cut the bullshit. Do you even care? It seems to me that if there is a bipartisan consensus about anything in this country, it is that we really don’t want to fix this. We’re too invested in the problem and the opportunities it creates to wave bloody shirts. Enjoy your crime scene porn.

#winning

Is my sarcasm meter broken? Because, if not, holy fuck. 

Posted
9 minutes ago, royiv said:

Fuck off. Your "sensible gun owner" schtick is old. One side owns this crisis. Quit trying to both sides it. People say opinions on the issue can't be changed. They're wrong. I went from a gun owner that supported sensible gun control measures to someone who has disposed of all of his weapons that is now a gun ban absolutist. Why? Because one side won't budge so why should my new side negotiate with terrorists?

Oh and one more thing- now that your feet are planted so firmly on the high ground of righteousness, how about you spend the night volunteering in a domestic abuse shelter or staff a suicide hotline sometime? Or does the moral license of correct posture come with a dispensation?

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Is my sarcasm meter broken? Because, if not, holy fuck. 

This is not new for me. If there’s be thing growing up managing the fallout of mental illnesses, homelessness, domestic abuse, drug addiction and suicide taught me it’s that individuals care, but “people” don’t give a fuck and the politics of suffering mostly are a get out of jail free card. After, It’s only 26k suicides by handgun a year. Somebody will get to that eventually. 
Now, everyone gaze upon yon bloodstains and let your tears bathe you in absolution. You don’t have to actually accomplish anything.

Edited by Bozo_Casanova
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Posted
19 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

You are very serious about this, I can tell. Tell me your very serious and practical path to a gun ban. How many people die of gunshot wounds while we wait?

You're a fucking moron. Please tell me your very serious and practical path to gun reform. How many people die of gunshot wounds while we wait? Because we currently have lots and lots of guns and lots and lots of gun violence.

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

“Hell yes!”

- US Senator Beto O’Rourke*
 

 

 

  Hide contents

* an explainer for the smoothbrains: I know he didn’t suggest banning guns. He said they would take their AR-15’s, and it cost him the election because it’s a nonstarter. You don’t get to enjoy the privilege of indulging in nonstarters if you are actually serious about gun violence. That’s the joke. 

 

It cost him the presidential election? Because you do realize he said that quote in 2019... during the presidential debate and not during the senate run against Cruz? 

Edited by FirstTimeCaller
Posted
57 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

A staffer for a current Democrat office holder tell me they know AR-15s aren’t going anywhere and there’s room for progress on things that would actually move the needle on gun violence but the politics of the base don’t support it in either party.

Such as?

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Posted
Just now, royiv said:

You're a fucking moron. Please tell me your very serious and practical path to gun reform. How many people die of gunshot wounds while we wait? Because we currently have lots and lots of guns and lots and lots of gun violence.

Are you personally willing to give cash money to a Democrat sponsor of an NFA reform that trades taking SBRs and suppressors off of NFA control in return for a federal red flag law?

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Posted
2 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

It cost him the presidential election? Because you do realize he said that quote in 2019... during the presidential debate and not during the senate run again Cruz? 

So he did. Well he’s not president, either. He sure did emote though. People cheered! Good for him.

Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Foosters said:

Such as?

Safe storage requirements and a red flag law with owner liability in return for faster NFA registration processing times and removing suppressors from NFA control is the specific thing that conversation was about. You know, actual gun violence prevention.

Edited by Bozo_Casanova
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Just going to put this here, likely to be an unpopular take:

It seems to me that if there is a bipartisan consensus about anything in this country, it is that we really don’t want to fix this. We’re too invested in the problem and the opportunities it creates to wave bloody shirts. Enjoy your crime scene porn.

I agree.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That this is an unpopular take.

 

Not as unpopular as a certain menu item at a golf resort in Miami, but unpopular nonetheless.

Edited by DDD Dad
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Posted
5 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Safe storage requirements and a red flag law with owner liability in return for faster NFA registration processing times and removing suppressors from NFA control is the specific thing that conversation was about. You know, actual gun violence prevention.

No, I don't know. That's why I'm asking you, the smug expert. 

But I do appreciate the insight that the myriad gun, safety, red flag laws, etc. that have been passed on the local and state levels in Democratic controlled regions, are just performative, and thus the Dems are equal to the GOP when it comes to addressing gun violence. Holy shit typing it out makes it seem even more insane than when you posted it

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Posted
5 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

So he did. Well he’s not president, either. He sure did emote though. People cheered! Good for him.

 Here's another little fact for you. The guy that won the nomination and the presidency has also said he wants to ban the gun. 

So you're 0-for-2, but keep thinking you're the smartest guy in the room at all times.

Posted
16 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Are you personally willing to give cash money to a Democrat sponsor of an NFA reform that trades taking SBRs and suppressors off of NFA control in return for a federal red flag law?

Why would I do that? I already stated that we should just get rid of guns. I think your hobby is dumb.

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Posted
4 minutes ago, Foosters said:

But I do appreciate the insight that the myriad gun, safety, red flag laws, etc. that have been passed on the local and state levels in Democratic controlled regions, are just performative, and thus the Dems are equal to the GOP when it comes to addressing gun violence.

No, not all, and not equal. But making an assault weapons (read: AR-15) ban the centerpiece of gun violence strategy is unproductive and stupid, plays directly into the GOP strategy, and what’s worse is that many of the Democrats pushing that strategy know it. 

Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Here's another little fact for you. The guy that won the nomination and the presidency has also said he wants to ban the gun. 

 

Joe Biden has never said he would “take” the gun. Those two things are not remotely the same. And I’m saying that as someone who is basically indifferent about the AWB. Biden stuck to a political nonstarter that happens to be a viable party line. O’Rourke jumped into the cooling pond at Hanford and then tried giving out hugs. Just a ridiculous own-goal.

Edited by Bozo_Casanova
Posted
1 hour ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

At some point we have to ask ourselves whether we value human life and want to protect it, and to prevent tragedy and human suffering. If we do we will institute strong red flag laws, reform the NFA, control problem products like the AR-15 and hi capacity magazines, and focus our attention on our unaddressed mental health crisis, and nobody seems to be interested.

Literally every person I know that wants to do something about the gun problem is in favor of all of this.  WTF are you smoking tonight man?

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Posted
1 minute ago, Biff Tannen said:

Literally every person I know that wants to do something about the gun problem is in favor of all of this.  WTF are you smoking tonight man?

Forget it. He's rolling. 

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Posted
1 hour ago, fattyflattie said:

Single issue voting should be discouraged. Hopefully the R’s can get onboard with some of the more sensible restrictions someday.  I fear they will not. 

Good thing the GOP/GQP have myriad other abhorrent policy positions -- or perhaps better started, non-policy positions -- to choose from. Voting against R's these days is far from a one-issue vote.

 

1 hour ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Just going to put this here, likely to be an unpopular take: a huge number of people are killed by guns in this country in this country each year. While mass shootings are becoming more common with time, only around 2% of gun deaths are from mass shootings. Of the other 98%, more than half are suicides. That’s icky, I know: sad people offed themselves with pistols. Hard to relate to. We had better avoid talking about that one.

I heard somebody say recently that healthy societies argue over distribution. Unhealthy ones argue over recognition. The debate about guns in this country seems to me more about winning culture wars than saving lives and preventing suffering and violence.

I am sorely angry with American Republicans and gun owners generally for fanning the flames of violence and promoting a gun culture or paranoia and agoraphobia while they cry crocodile tears about the mentally ill whom they refuse to care about. But- the catechistic Democrat line of banning AR-15s as a mechanism of preventing mass shootings continues to strike me as mostly performative and non-responsive, in the same way that Ivy League college admissions are a performative and beside the point way to think about affirmative action in education to address racial justice and inequality. 
 

At some point we have to ask ourselves whether we value human life and want to protect it, and to prevent tragedy and human suffering. If we do we will institute strong red flag laws, reform the NFA, control problem products like the AR-15 and hi capacity magazines, and focus our attention on our unaddressed mental health crisis, and nobody seems to be interested. A staffer for a current Democrat office holder tell me they know AR-15s aren’t going anywhere and there’s room for progress on things that would actually move the needle on gun violence but the politics of the base don’t support it in either party. Republican staffers have told me the the same thing.

And honestly, guys- cut the bullshit. Do you even care? It seems to me that if there is a bipartisan consensus about anything in this country, it is that we really don’t want to fix this. We’re too invested in the problem and the opportunities it creates to wave bloody shirts. Enjoy your crime scene porn.

#winning

News flash, we'd like to ALL of these things but you know well and good that one party doesn't support any of the shit you mention, or does NOTHING to actually put any of that into action. I'm not a "ban all guns" guy. I definitely don't think every Tom, Dick and Harry American should be able to own AR-15 style weaponry. But I'm sensible. You can't win every game on the schedule in the very first game.

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Posted
11 minutes ago, royiv said:

Why would I do that?

Because that is a politically viable path to a federal red flag law that would save lives if it didn’t come with Democratic primary challenges attached to it. 

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Posted
4 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Literally every person I know that wants to do something about the gun problem is in favor of all of this.

And what I am telling you is what has been communicated to me: ANY grand compromise that delivers those things in return for stuff gun owners want but does not deliver an AWB comes with primary challenges. It’s an incentives problem.

what would you support giving the GOP in return for those things?

Posted
5 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Because that is a politically viable path to a federal red flag law that would save lives if it didn’t come with Democratic primary challenges attached to it. 

 

1 minute ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

And what I am telling you is what has been communicated to me: ANY grand compromise that delivers those things in return for stuff gun owners want but does not deliver an AWB comes with primary challenges. It’s an incentives problem.

what would you support giving the GOP in return for those things?

Why should we be appeasing radical gun owners to get rules in place that save lives? You can't negotiate with terrorists.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, C-Man said:

I definitely don't think every Tom, Dick and Harry American should be able to own AR-15 style weaponry

Every Tom Dick and Harry American can own an actual machine gun my man. They just have to pay for it (expensive) and go through the NFA process to do it, which takes 6-9 months, which is exactly the same as the process to get a can to make your .22lr plinker 24dbs less noisy. 
 

one of those things is not on the list and should be. One of them is and shouldn’t. Tradeoffs could and should be made.

Edited by Bozo_Casanova
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Posted
3 minutes ago, royiv said:

Why should we be appeasing radical gun owners to get rules in place that save lives? You can't negotiate with terrorists.

That’s cute. When I do this bit on the Gun Owners thread they have tantrums about it too. Y’all deserve each other. 

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Posted

This pisses me off.  I'm talking to you, @Bozo_Casanova.  Fuck your both-sides stance.

 

Suicide is awful.  It has hit my family.  The family never recovers.  Access to a gun makes it all the more likely.

Murder is awful.  Access to a gun makes it all the more likely.

Mass shootings are awful.  Access to guns makes them all the more likely.

 

Get rid of the guns and you probably eliminate the vast majority of these deaths.  Of course mass shootings are relatively rare.  Who the fuck cares?  All of these deaths are tragic.  Why are you, a person of apparent high intellect and great empathy treading a stupid fine line of "well . . ."?  Fuck that, man.

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Posted
34 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Safe storage requirements and a red flag law with owner liability in return for faster NFA registration processing times and removing suppressors from NFA control is the specific thing that conversation was about. You know, actual gun violence prevention.

Not sure if we've talked about the suicide component of guns on this thread or if it was another one.  But you raised a legit point.  We lose a lot of people, a disproportionate amount to suicide-by-gun in this country.  So much so it begs the question, why?  We have just many unhappy people as anywhere else.  We have way more drugs and tall buildings.  There are vast studies done that suggest that there'd be far less suicide if a quick and painless way, like a bullet through the brain, wasn't so readily available.  That long walk to the bridge gives one significant time to ponder and reflect.  Even swallowing a bottle of pills can give one time to vomit and call for help.  So while we want to wish away that 2% that die from mass shootings, we should also reflect upon the fact that we take our own lives with guns far, far more than any other country does too.  Because we don't treat addiction, don't treat mental health, and don't treat suicidal/homicidal red flags except that we offer them as much firepower as possible, with no money down.  

And then your "safe storage" mention.  Why is it the country that prides itself on a well regulated militia.  That exercises its constitutional right.  That apparently has no issues with mass shootings or firearm suicide.  That prides itself, even sucks its own dick, over "Responsible Gun Ownership" and "Gun Safety" and "Trigger Discipline" keeps fucking shooting itself?  We have the means, the money, and the resources to properly secure our weapons.  And yet, one nation stands boldly apart from "shithole countries" and is singularly best at accidental shootings, child deaths by gun, un-secured weapons, stolen weapons, and mistaken discharges...the United States.  The one country charged with being well-armed and well-secured...we can't help but mistakenly have thousands upon thousands of accidental deaths because "responsible gun owners" do such a bang-up job of storing their guns.  

We're fucking idiots.  Toddlers, even.  With stupidly easy access to stupid amounts of stupidly powerful weapons.  

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Get rid of the guns and you probably eliminate the vast majority of these deaths.  Of course mass shootings are relatively rare.  Who the fuck cares?  All of these deaths are tragic.  Why are you, a person of apparent high intellect and great empathy treading a stupid fine line of "well . . ."?  Fuck that, man.

My friend, I am sorry that you have also experienced these things. And for that reason we don’t have the privilege of distance from the issue or fantasy. Solving real problems starts with clearly viewing the world as it is, not as we want it to be. 

Edited by Bozo_Casanova
Posted
Just now, Bozo_Casanova said:

My friend, I have sorry that you have also experience these things. And for that reason we don’t have the privilege of distance from the issue or fantasy. Solving real problems starts with clearly viewing the world as it is, not as we want it to be. 

So you've experienced these things yet you have the clear view?  And I don't?  

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