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4 University of Idaho students killed in home - Suspect in Custody


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Posted
15 minutes ago, Hitch said:

It’s apparent the prosecution were very, very poor communicators. At least two of the families were lied to about going to trial. I understand why they took the easy win, it’s human nature. Just be up front and honest. It’s a really low bar here. 

if I had not spent an entire career with clients sometimes telling me things that I told them that never happened, I would be more open minded. The reality is that whether people have lives ruined because of a serious injury or their loved one is a victim of a crime, the people receiving the communication are always in a very enhanced emotional state. They are dealing with lots of problems while trying to deal with a system that is not easy to understand.

And people generally want black-and-white answers to questions. The justice system is the last place to find a black-and-white answer.   So if you give them a long nuanced, how this is going to go, what generally happens is they focus on/only hear a couple key points - which usually involves them hearing that you agree with the points that they like.  It is human nature.

But I can tell you that when you get a result that is not exactly what the client wants, the knee-jerk reaction is often to blame the lawyers for not telling them this would happen, or for allowing this to happen because…..   I have had clients tell me that I never told them about things I told them about.  I often recorded initial interviews (with their permission), and several times I later played back the recording which totally refuted their claim.  I seldom got an apology, just a less angry client.

And sometimes the lawyers do a shitty job of communication, and sometimes lawyers forget things, and sometimes lawyers lie and break a promise.   Far more often it is a breakdown of communication caused by the clients not being lawyers and having to understand complex things while they are vulnerable and emotional.  Add to that the fact that an appellate decision or new legislation can make everything you had told the client earlier totally or partially incorrect.

TL;DR    While, you might be entirely correct, that is not the assumption that my decades of experience tells me is the most likely reality here.    And yeah, it can also be a mix of bad communicating lawyer and poorly comprehending client or victim family.

 

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Posted
15 minutes ago, royiv said:

Not in the least. 

That’s hard to believe, but probably for the better. I’m pro death penalty, but I wasn’t trying to make this into a discussion about it. That would be a disservice to the victim’s families and let this moron DA off the hook. 

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Posted

I’d prefer they just shoot this fuck in the head and toss him in the dumpster in the alley behind the jail.

But apparently my opinions on such matters aren’t well regarded.

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Posted
15 minutes ago, Hitch said:

That’s hard to believe, but probably for the better. I’m pro death penalty, but I wasn’t trying to make this into a discussion about it. That would be a disservice to the victim’s families and let this moron DA off the hook. 

You weren’t trying to make a discussion  about a high profile death penalty case where you repeatedly cast aspersions on the prosecution for a plea deal that doesn’t result in the death penalty into a discussion about the death penalty? Okay, and fuck off with your dumb attempt at moral high ground saying it is a disservice to the victim’s families. They’re not participating in this discussion on a random message board. You’re just disingenuously trying to avoid justifying your position. 

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Posted
11 minutes ago, royiv said:

You weren’t trying to make a discussion  about a high profile death penalty case where you repeatedly cast aspersions on the prosecution for a plea deal that doesn’t result in the death penalty into a discussion about the death penalty? Okay, and fuck off with your dumb attempt at moral high ground saying it is a disservice to the victim’s families. They’re not participating in this discussion on a random message board. You’re just disingenuously trying to avoid justifying your position. 

I meant the moral aspects of the death penalty. I absolutely think that it’s appropriate in this case and feel very good about it. Not sure why you’re so angry, but that’s not my problem I suppose. 

23 minutes ago, tbone_ said:

I’d prefer they just shoot this fuck in the head and toss him in the dumpster in the alley behind the jail.

But apparently my opinions on such matters aren’t well regarded.

That’s too good for him imo. 

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Posted

You don’t have to turn it into a moral discussion. My opinion is that the death penalty wastes a ton of monetary and human resources which results in victims of other crimes getting shortchanged. 

Posted
23 hours ago, royiv said:

Why are you guys so obsessed with putting someone to death? It’s incredibly expensive, time consuming and a waste of resources that only draws out the trauma for the families. It’s not like life in prison is some walk in the park. 

Agreed with this. Lock him up forever and throw away the key. Be done with it. Don't have to deal with 20 years of appeals, etc.

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Posted
6 minutes ago, C-Man said:

Agreed with this. Lock him up forever and throw away the key. Be done with it. Don't have to deal with 20 years of appeals, etc.

Counterpoint:  Now the families have to deal with 30-40 years of expose/interview/tell-all media endeavors that rub salt in their wounds till they die.

 

If they could stick him in a deep dark hole and court order gag the media then you'd be spot-on.  That can't happen.

Posted
14 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Counterpoint:  Now the families have to deal with 30-40 years of expose/interview/tell-all media endeavors that rub salt in their wounds till they die.

 

If they could stick him in a deep dark hole and court order gag the media then you'd be spot-on.  That can't happen.

Yep. They’ll never get closure. 

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Posted
Counterpoint:  Now the families have to deal with 30-40 years of expose/interview/tell-all media endeavors that rub salt in their wounds till they die.
 
If they could stick him in a deep dark hole and court order gag the media then you'd be spot-on.  That can't happen.

Watch Richard Linklater’s God Save Texas: Huntsville. If you are arguing for the mental health benefits of capital punishment, the benefits could be detailed on a leaflet.

The victims’ families will suffer everyday for the rest of their lives. Eliminating appeals outweighs the continued existence of a murderer.
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Posted
5 minutes ago, Hitch said:

Yep. They’ll never get closure. 

At least one of the families disagrees with you. Why do you keep ignoring their wishes?

Posted
12 minutes ago, royiv said:

At least one of the families disagrees with you. Why do you keep ignoring their wishes?

They said they’re ok with no trial, I haven’t heard their position on him being put to death. I’m hoping another inmate does the job that Thompson couldn’t. 

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Posted

So now the people of the State of Idaho get the expense of another murder trial and accompanying civil rights investigation. The bloodthirst is getting spendy.

Posted
15 minutes ago, royiv said:

So now the people of the State of Idaho get the expense of another murder trial and accompanying civil rights investigation. The bloodthirst is getting spendy.

Justice isn’t free. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Eskimohorn said:

The victims’ families will suffer everyday for the rest of their lives

Agreed 

I don’t think the death penalty is a mental health curative.  I have some big issues with the state taking someones life.  At the end of the day I think it should apply to cases like this.  I watched about 3 min of the hearing the other day and had to turn it off because it was literally making me nauseous.  BK is the definition of evil.

Edited by Incredulity
Posted
1 hour ago, Hitch said:

Yep. They’ll never get closure. 

If you are waiting on the death of a perp to obtain closure on the death of a loved one, you're never going to get closure, no matter what happens.

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Posted
21 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

If you are waiting on the death of a perp to obtain closure on the death of a loved one, you're never going to get closure, no matter what happens.

Speak for yourself. It would help me. 

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Posted
23 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

If you are waiting on the death of a perp to obtain closure on the death of a loved one, you're never going to get closure, no matter what happens.

 

1 minute ago, Hitch said:

Speak for yourself. It would help me. 

It's pretty arrogant to presuppose what and how someone should grieve and what or how should bring a sense of emotional comfort and closure to someone who is not yourself.

Even if you vaguely agree on such broad concepts like "justice", the details can be widely different for different people (e.g. justice for one might be the death penalty in an eye-for-an-eye and for another it could mean a cosmic or spiritual justice like hell once life on earth ends, etc.)

Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

 

It's pretty arrogant to presuppose what and how someone should grieve and what or how should bring a sense of emotional comfort and closure to someone who is not yourself.

Even if you vaguely agree on such broad concepts like "justice", the details can be widely different for different people (e.g. justice for one might be the death penalty in an eye-for-an-eye and for another it could mean a cosmic or spiritual justice like hell once life on earth ends, etc.)

Also highly presumptive to assume that you will actually get something out of the death of another person in vengeance.

If you REALLY know that, might need to seek help.

I believe you consider yourself a Christian.  Accordingly, you will realize that, believer or not, the Bible is full of pretty good psychology, primitive as some of it is.  "Vengeance is mine" I think is one of those pretty solid psychological tips.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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Posted
5 minutes ago, Hitch said:

Speak for yourself. It would help me. 

You have zero idea if that’s true unless you’ve been in that situation. I’d personally like to think that I would follow the Christian teachings and values that I was raised on even though I no longer identify with the church, but I really have no idea.

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Posted
4 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

 

It's pretty arrogant to presuppose what and how someone should grieve and what or how should bring a sense of emotional comfort and closure to someone who is not yourself.

Even if you vaguely agree on such broad concepts like "justice", the details can be widely different for different people (e.g. justice for one might be the death penalty in an eye-for-an-eye and for another it could mean a cosmic or spiritual justice like hell once life on earth ends, etc.)

Yes and no.  The evidence on such matters -- as in, actually gathering input from people after the fact -- indicates that Twice's take is the general rule.

Not that I don't get Hitch's take; if one of my kids had been a victim, I'd almost certainly feel the same way.  I have an overdeveloped sense of vengeance, I admit it.  BUT...I'm also objectively rational enough to know that no matter how much I'd want that outcome, it is very likely, even certain, that once the perpetrator was dead...I'd still not have that closure.  That is because some things are so horrific that no "closure" or peace can be obtained by external events.  It can only be obtained by doing the one thing that so many of us are loathe to do: letting go.  And again, I don't know if I could ever pull that off.  I'd probably carry unspeakable pain, rage, and hate to my grave.  But that's my weakness, of which I am well aware.  I won't lie to myself and tell myself that I would obtain peace and closure that way.  

It's okay and human to want that revenge.  Just don't lie to yourself and insist that vengeance is the way to peace and closure.  Millennia of human experience tells us that's not the case.

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Posted
4 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

 

It's pretty arrogant to presuppose what and how someone should grieve and what or how should bring a sense of emotional comfort and closure to someone who is not yourself.

Even if you vaguely agree on such broad concepts like "justice", the details can be widely different for different people (e.g. justice for one might be the death penalty in an eye-for-an-eye and for another it could mean a cosmic or spiritual justice like hell once life on earth ends, etc.)

I can only speak to what the Goncalves family is saying publicly. I agree with them completely. 

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Posted
4 minutes ago, royiv said:

You have zero idea if that’s true unless you’ve been in that situation. I’d personally like to think that I would follow the Christian teachings and values that I was raised on even though I no longer identify with the church, but I really have no idea.

See, that’s just not the case. I know exactly what I’d want if my child were to be stabbed to death. 

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Posted
2 minutes ago, Hitch said:

See, that’s just not the case. I know exactly what I’d want if my child were to be stabbed to death. 

I agree.  I know what I'd want.

What we'd want is one thing.

Whether it would actually bring us peace and closure is quite another.

There's a metric shitton of things in this life that, if only I could get it, then it would surely make me happy/feel better/etc.  But then, having gotten one or another of those things, it's amazing how often the thing that I wanted did NOT ultimately make me happy/feel better/etc.  Knowing that pattern doesn't make me stop wanting those things.  But it has made me more realistic about the outcome I expect from getting them.  I'm suggesting that a realistic approach would be to acknowledge that the thing you very much want - vengeance - won't fill the void.

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Posted
Just now, royiv said:

You should seek counseling.

Because I want a serial killer put to death? That would be a really short session. 

 

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

I agree.  I know what I'd want.

What we'd want is one thing.

Whether it would actually bring us peace and closure is quite another.

There's a metric shitton of things in this life that, if only I could get it, then it would surely make me happy/feel better/etc.  But then, having gotten one or another of those things, it's amazing how often the thing that I wanted did NOT ultimately make me happy/feel better/etc.  Knowing that pattern doesn't make me stop wanting those things.  But it has made me more realistic about the outcome I expect from getting them.  I'm suggesting that a realistic approach would be to acknowledge that the thing you very much want - vengeance - won't fill the void.

It’s not going to fill the void of such an unimaginable loss. But it sure would help. 

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Posted
37 minutes ago, Hitch said:

It’s not going to fill the void of such an unimaginable loss. But it sure would help. 

I know you think it would help.  But the accounts of most folks who have been through such things tells you that, for the most part, it actually doesn't.

Which is both hard for me (a vengeance minded guy) to grasp...but also, knowing just enough about human nature, loss, and grief, it also makes sense.  We don't find actual closure and peace by trying to "balance the ledger," because such ledgers can never be balanced.  To continue the metaphor, most people who speak of finding peace and closure get there because they "write off the debt."  Holding onto trying to collect on a debt that can never be repaid is a recipe for continued suffering and anger.  It's counter-intuitive at first, but in the bigger picture, it makes sense.

You say such things definitively -- "it would bring closure."  "It sure would help."  You may genuinely think that.  But first, you don't know that, as you haven't actually applied that path to yourself.  And second, looking to the folks who HAVE walked that path, they mostly tell us that what you think is generally not how it turns out.  Maybe listen to them, the folks who have come out on the other side.  They aren't speaking in the abstract or unknown like you and I are' they are speaking from actual experience.  They have more credibility than you or I on the matter.

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Posted
3 hours ago, royiv said:

You don’t have to turn it into a moral discussion. My opinion is that the death penalty wastes a ton of monetary and human resources which results in victims of other crimes getting shortchanged. 

To elaborate on this further... (not a lawyer, but google is my friend)

The cost of a capital case is around $1mm (on average) greater than a non-captial case - greater in some places.  And that is if both go to completion.  In this specific case, the cost is far different, as the dude pleaded guilty.

Then, there is the cost of appeals, incarceration, etc.  The costs of incarcerating a death penalty prisoner are significantly higher - there are estimates that it is 5x the cost.  Same with the appeals process.

Note that the prosecution represents the state - and not just the families of the victims.  Life without parole is better for the state in risk, financial, etc. dimensions.  You do not want to risk that the prosecution, law enforcement, the university, or anyone else fucked up some part of the process, lengthening the trial or enabling more appeal opportunities.  

He pleaded guilty and will be permanently out of the press very soon.  This is the best outcome for the state.  As @Brisketexan notes, I comprehend the desire for vengeance - esp. for this guy.  The debt metaphor is perfect.

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Posted
13 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I know you think it would help.  But the accounts of most folks who have been through such things tells you that, for the most part, it actually doesn't.

Which is both hard for me (a vengeance minded guy) to grasp...but also, knowing just enough about human nature, loss, and grief, it also makes sense.  We don't find actual closure and peace by trying to "balance the ledger," because such ledgers can never be balanced.  To continue the metaphor, most people who speak of finding peace and closure get there because they "write off the debt."  Holding onto trying to collect on a debt that can never be repaid is a recipe for continued suffering and anger.  It's counter-intuitive at first, but in the bigger picture, it makes sense.

You say such things definitively -- "it would bring closure."  "It sure would help."  You may genuinely think that.  But first, you don't know that, as you haven't actually applied that path to yourself.  And second, looking to the folks who HAVE walked that path, they mostly tell us that what you think is generally not how it turns out.  Maybe listen to them, the folks who have come out on the other side.  They aren't speaking in the abstract or unknown like you and I are' they are speaking from actual experience.  They have more credibility than you or I on the matter.

I have no issue listening to other’s advice and experience, but vengeance would certainly be part of my healing journey. I just don’t lose sleep over murderers being put to death. 

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Posted (edited)

Given how long it takes to execute someone, I imagine that many loved ones, of a murder victim, have passed away not seeing the perp executed. And sure you can complain that we take too long but that’s the system.

Odds are that the families unanswered questions would have remained unanswered even with a trial. And perhaps the prosecution had some holes in their evidence that possibly could have allowed him to walk. Someone can be guilty but the evidence can be weak.

in a perfect world, the DA or judge could have added some condition that the guy had to explain more about why he chose the deceased but that has nothing to do with admitting to doing it. 

Edited by Nice Guy Eddie
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Posted
1 hour ago, Hitch said:

Because I want a serial killer put to death? That would be a really short session. 

 

It’s not going to fill the void of such an unimaginable loss. But it sure would help. 

“You shall not murder.”

 

are there any carve outs or mitigating circumstances described to get around this?

you seem to be a proponent of Hammurabi.  He’s from that mooslem area. 

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Posted
8 hours ago, Hitch said:

That’s hard to believe, but probably for the better. I’m pro death penalty, but I wasn’t trying to make this into a discussion about it. That would be a disservice to the victim’s families and let this moron DA off the hook. 

It’s hard to be 100% wrong on everything in a post like this, so congratulations I guess. 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, royiv said:

You don’t have to turn it into a moral discussion. My opinion is that the death penalty wastes a ton of monetary and human resources which results in victims of other crimes getting shortchanged. 

I fully agree, and beyond that the single worst action that ANY criminal justice system can carry out is to execute an innocent human. Not free a guilty one, not convict an innocent one, not fail to convict a guilty one, not fail to free an innocent one, but kill an innocent one. 

Sadly, all of them happen to frequently, but if one can be easily avoided and it comes with the benefit of potentially freeing up resources to avoid others, logic dictates that it should be pursued vigorously.

Logic, not morals, religion or emotions.

Logic. 

That's what pushed me to become anti-death penalty. It's illogical, highly illogical. 

Not that I don't FEEL certain offenders deserve it. I absolutely do FEEL that way. I just don't condone nor support it because my logic supersedes my emotion on this topic.

Edited by BurntEyes
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Posted
8 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Also highly presumptive to assume that you will actually get something out of the death of another person in vengeance.

If you REALLY know that, might need to seek help.

I believe you consider yourself a Christian.  Accordingly, you will realize that, believer or not, the Bible is full of pretty good psychology, primitive as some of it is.  "Vengeance is mine" I think is one of those pretty solid psychological tips.

100% agree with you, with respect to me. But I can compartmentalize (aka, have empathy) with others who might not share my worldview and spiritual beliefs. Far be it for me to sit in judgment (for many reasons, a big one you hit upon with me).

Posted
6 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

“You shall not murder.”

 

are there any carve outs or mitigating circumstances described to get around this?

you seem to be a proponent of Hammurabi.  He’s from that mooslem area. 

Not to get all semantic, but there is a distinction between the hebrew words "to kill" and "to murder". 

As Marlon Brando famously said, 

"I'm having a little trouble getting started, Father."

Priest : You are in the House of God now, my son. Speak from your heart.

"Well, I've done a lot of killin'. I've killed a lot of men and sinned a lot of women. But the men I killed needed killin' and the women wanted sinnin', and well, I never was one much to argue."

Posted

I think the DP discussion is an important one to have. Lots of heartfelt and thoughtful responses in this thread. 

Meanwhile, there are a ton of assholes in the true crime community posting that they STILL believe he is 100% innocent. Even after the plea deal. I do not understand this. They believe he was simply driving around stargazing that night. And that he has been framed. I can’t with this. I have been sparring with these fucktards for the better part of two years online. His Papa Roger fans. 

there will likely forever be a mystery surrounding the murder weapon and other questions people may have about the crime that the state isn’t able to answer. Maybe the killer will someday. Will some of those answers ever help the families heal? I don’t know. 

I just know that a person doesn’t take four consecutive life sentences along with a burglary charge and waive all rights to any and all appeals if they ain’t guilty. We all know there would be years of appeals were he to be found guilty by a jury and sentenced to death. And no one knows how a trial could go. So many chances to roll the dice for him. One of his super fans could have stealthed their way onto a jury. 

I think people confuse chaos for conspiracy in this case. What he did was similar in some ways (minus the sexual component and number of deceased) to what Ted Bundy did 47 years ago at the Chi Omega house. Kohberger is no different in my view. A psychopath walking around in human skin. 

my two cents. These fans of Bryan’s: These fucking people suck. All that’s left is for the families to face him on July 23-24th. And after that the gag order is over once he’s shuffled off to live behind bars in the dark recesses of his mind. Trying to still fool his parents he ain’t a fucking monster. 
 

👺 
 

Posted
1 hour ago, shadow_operative2.0 said:

Nicole, it’s time to let it go.

Please don’t become ctj or Brisket. 

A visit to a beautiful lake always helps. 😀 

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