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Israel-Hamas war thread


Brisketexan

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21 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

I was not aware of that incident.  Interesting CIA briefing released in 2006 indicates it was an accident (Israeli army mistook ship for an Egyptian freighter), and that the Liberty was closer to shore than it was supposed to be.  Other than conspiracy theories I couldn't find any hard evidence to suggest a different impression. https://theintercept.com/2017/06/06/fifty-years-later-nsa-keeps-details-of-israels-uss-liberty-attack-secret/

Regardless of whether it was intentional or accidental, how does that incident over 50 years ago apply to the current hostilities?

I have read every account by the survivors of that incident, and to a man, they all agree that the attack was deliberate, that the Liberty was in international waters, and that the US aided in the coverup.  Israel has never acknowledged that the attack was deliberate.  This is exactly indicative of how Israel views its relationship with the US.

Edited by NeverMarryAStripper
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12 minutes ago, NeverMarryAStripper said:

I have read every account by the survivors of that incident, and to a man, they all agree that the attack was deliberate, that the Liberty was in international waters, and that the US aided in the coverup.  Israel has never acknowledged that the attack was deliberate.  This is exactly indicative of how Israel views its relationship with the US.

Clearly you are a lot closer to this than I.  However I would point out that at least veteran involved does not share that opinion.  From the article:

Quote

Not all veterans involved believe in a cover-up, however. Former Navy Chief Petty Officer Marvin Nowicki, the chief Hebrew-language analyst aboard a U.S. Navy EC-121 spy plane that was intercepting Israeli aircraft communications as they were assaulting the Liberty, believed the attack was an accident. He stated in a letter to the Wall Street Journal in 2001 that though he heard and recorded Israeli pilots’ and captains’ references to the U.S. flag flying on the deck of the Liberty, these remarks were made only after the attack was underway, and not before. It was when aircraft and motor torpedo boat operators moved closer to the Liberty, recalled Nowicki, that they were able to recognize and therefore reference the American flag.

While he wasn't on the ship itself, he certainly had some first-hand knowledge of the events.

Again, how does this have anything to do with the current conflict?

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13 minutes ago, HotSauce said:

I'm sure you wouldn't support the enemies of someone who had bombed and starved your entire family. 

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Can’t judge him too harshly for that in some ways, given what the Arab governments (and Iran more recently) have been trying to do for the last 75 years, and triggered by 10/7. 

fwiw - I always thought the Israeli West Bank settlement policy  was egregiously wrong from the getgo, but the PLA made the mistake of rejecting the concessions TelAviv made a few years back. 
Unfortunately the innocent children are suffering because of the actions of their elders. 
 

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3 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Clearly you are a lot closer to this than I.  However I would point out that at least veteran involved does not share that opinion.  From the article:

While he wasn't on the ship itself, he certainly had some first-hand knowledge of the events.

Again, how does this have anything to do with the current conflict?

The Liberty incident was a wake-up call to not put all our thirst in the Israelis.

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They are a victim of the Hamas terrorists their parents voted for.
But keep on with the denial.

Dude. I have a feeling that politically speaking you and I are more aligned than I am with the above posters giving you a rightful rash of shit for your post.

Now that we’ve got the preamble out of the way, rejoicing or finding any humor whatsoever in the death of innocent people is fucked up. Doubling down and justifying the deaths of innocents because of the sins of their fathers is…..wow.
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4 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Can’t judge him too harshly for that in some ways, given what the Arab governments (and Iran more recently) have been trying to do for the last 75 years, and triggered by 10/7. 

fwiw - I always thought the Israeli West Bank settlement policy  was egregiously wrong from the getgo, but the PLA made the mistake of rejecting the concessions TelAviv made a few years back. 
Unfortunately the innocent children are suffering because of the actions of their elders. 
 

Well let's just hope Israel can get better at identifying foreign aid workers and hopefully not blow our troops away as they're building the pier to help provide relief efforts. 

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I am not rejoicing in the death of innocents. 
That is your mistaken interpretation.

I am pointing out that Hamas and the people who vote and support them are the hypocrits.

But yes, the innocents kids are certainly victims of their government’s actions.

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2 minutes ago, mdmost said:

Well let's just hope Israel can get better at identifying foreign aid workers and hopefully not blow our troops away as they're building the pier to help provide relief efforts. 

Yes, that was a “Liberty” type of incident from what we have seen so far. 
Too bad the Hamas leadership refuse to surrender and save the lives of their innocents.

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1 minute ago, Armybrat said:

So, where was the Palestinian disapproval of 10/7?

What was the consensus reaction from their citizens, outrage or celebration?

I don't know what degree of support vs opposition there was in the days immediately after, but I'm sure it was mixed and based on plenty of inaccurate information, because that's how things like that work everywhere. I'm sure plenty of Palestinians felt the murder of Israeli civilians was justified, just as many here have since felt that the murder of Palestinian civilians is justified. 

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1 minute ago, Armybrat said:

But I really do apologize if I offended anyone here and will withdraw and let y’all carry on without any comments from this old cunt.

 

It would be better if you would take down your incredibly dumb Facebook meme. Discussion is welcome and it’s clear now that you can engage with your opinions, but dumb Facebook memes are not.

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1 minute ago, Armybrat said:

But I really do apologize if I offended anyone here and will withdraw and let y’all carry on without any comments from this old cunt.

 

I apologize for calling you an old cunt. 

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14 hours ago, Grande Mart said:

I sometimes have apocalyptic dreams, perhaps from growing up in Amarillo and being told the commies were gonna nuke us from an early age since we had Pantex. I remember one when I was in college at UT probably sometime around 1997. I was walking around West Campus going to get a 40 oz from Grande Mart or something like that as I was wont to do, smoking a camel light, (damn I miss smoking) when all of a sudden I heard the Voice of God resounding over the Earth. It said “MAKE WAY FOR THE AK” in the loudest noise I had ever heard, then the shit hit the fan. It was quite intense. 

Heck of a post.

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6 minutes ago, royiv said:

It would be better if you would take down your incredibly dumb Facebook meme. Discussion is welcome and it’s clear now that you can engage with your opinions, but dumb Facebook memes are not.

Since it offends you, I would if I could. A mod will have to delete it.

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13 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

So, where was the Palestinian disapproval of 10/7?

What was the consensus reaction from their citizens, outrage or celebration?

And therein lies a huge part of the problem. Israel’s official policies towards the Palestinian people residing in Gaza has been one of oppressing the general population. When that happens, people see Israel as an oppressor and Hamas can seize upon that and effectively use propaganda to influence Gazans. People that were pretty normal people get radicalized because they think Hamas will solve their problems when, in reality, we know that not to be the case.

Hamas is a terrorist organization that invites and incites violence and by inciting violence on 10/7, invited violence upon Gazans. Now Gazans have been enduring bombs raining down on their heads, being forced from their homes, being denied food and healthcare for more than 6 months. Do you think Gazans are looking around and thinking “Praise Allah, Israel is here to save us?” Of course not, it just further radicalizes the populace and around and around we go.
Continuing to do the same shit on repeat doesn’t and will never work. Continuing with a failed policy only leads to death and suffering on both sides.

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28 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Looks like a job for a mod.

 

I reported your post and asked for help for you.  However, you might want to edit your most recent post to remove the photo you quoted.

Mods, feel free to delete this and other related posts to clean up the thread.

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9 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

I reported your post and asked for help for you.  However, you might want to edit your most recent post to remove the photo you quoted.

Mods, feel free to delete this and other related posts to clean up the thread.

Same for that one too.

Sorry I ever posted here.

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According to Doctors without Borders: "The pattern of attacks is either intentional or indicative of reckless incompetence."

Using visual evidence and internal communications, The Times looked at six aid groups whose operations or shelters came under Israeli fire despite using the Israel Defense Forces’ deconfliction system to notify the military of their locations.

These humanitarian organizations have a direct line to the I.D.F. and come from Western countries, including Israel’s strongest allies. Some of the locations struck had been clearly marked or located in a special humanitarian zone that Israel said was safe for civilians.

The pattern indicates that in Israel’s battle against Hamas, not even the places with every available avenue of protection are safe from I.D.F. strikes.

 

Edited by bolverk
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According to Doctors without Borders: "The pattern of attacks is either intentional or indicative of reckless incompetence."

Using visual evidence and internal communications, The Times looked at six aid groups whose operations or shelters came under Israeli fire despite using the Israel Defense Forces’ deconfliction system to notify the military of their locations.

These humanitarian organizations have a direct line to the I.D.F. and come from Western countries, including Israel’s strongest allies. Some of the locations struck had been clearly marked or located in a special humanitarian zone that Israel said was safe for civilians.

The pattern indicates that in Israel’s battle against Hamas, not even the places with every available avenue of protection are safe from I.D.F. strikes.

 

This.
I understand and accept that there will be civilian casualties in most wars. It is the nature of war.
But that does not excuse or allow for either 1) intentional targeting of civilians, or 2) reckless disregard of the risk to civilians. And seeing Israel’s conduct and the results of same - AND considering the statements of numerous Israeli officials SAYING that eliminating civilians is their goal - one of those two options is the only rational conclusion. Which makes Israel a state that is committing war crimes.
A state can be justified in taking military action to defend itself: Israel is.
A state can end up killing civilians incidental to its military action: Israel has.
A state CANNOT murder civilians on purpose or indiscriminately: Israel has.
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5 hours ago, Brisketexan said:


This.
I understand and accept that there will be civilian casualties in most wars. It is the nature of war.
But that does not excuse or allow for either 1) intentional targeting of civilians, or 2) reckless disregard of the risk to civilians. And seeing Israel’s conduct and the results of same - AND considering the statements of numerous Israeli officials SAYING that eliminating civilians is their goal - one of those two options is the only rational conclusion. Which makes Israel a state that is committing war crimes.
A state can be justified in taking military action to defend itself: Israel is.
A state can end up killing civilians incidental to its military action: Israel has.
A state CANNOT murder civilians on purpose or indiscriminately: Israel has.

also add purposeful starvation/withhold humanitarian aid to the CANNOT

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IDF is going into Rafah within the next 10 days, been bombing around the edges to gauge US reaction. It's on! 

Probably another 15,000 will die shortly. 

34,000 dead confirmed, another 13,000 missing, witnesses report the smell of corpses all over.  At the end, 70,000 dead meaning 1 of every 30 Gazans killed. 

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1 minute ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

IDF is going into Rafah within the next 10 days, been bombing around the edges to gauge US reaction. It's on! 

Probably another 15,000 will die shortly. 

34,000 dead confirmed, another 13,000 missing, witnesses report the smell of corpses all over.  At the end, 70,000 dead meaning 1 of every 30 Gazans killed. 

Legit question.  Are there combatants included in the 34000 dead? 

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I thought it was above 40k.

IDF AI is targeting any fighting age male including teenagers, and most likely including them in their Hamas killed. Also, anyone working for the Hamas government is included. So don't be a garbage man.

 

This article hedges about halfway though, but will suffice for knowledge of the programs.

https://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/2024/hss/gaza-war-israel-using-ai-to-identify-human-targets-raising-fears-that-innocents-are-being-caught-in-the-net.html

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7 minutes ago, leaf said:

Legit question.  Are there combatants included in the 34000 dead? 

yes, about 7,000 - 10,000 Hamas fighters killed. IDF tends to bloat the numbers, US Intel is always less.  The Israeli propaganda will say they were all hiding, but why blow up an entire building killing 50-100 civilians to get 1 low level guy? In fact, IDF troops are on the ground just minutes away, so why not go in the same way Osama Bin Laden was taken? the US Navy could easily have blown up that house, but his entire family survived.     

edit, yes - Israel include any Hamas civil workers and policemen in the body count. US does not.

Edited by Make em eat Taco Bell
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Israeli Officials Believe I.C.C. Is Preparing Arrest Warrants Over War
The officials said they believed that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and other Israelis could be charged, and that the court was also considering warrants for Hamas leaders.

Israeli officials increasingly believe that the International Criminal Court is preparing to issue arrest warrants for senior government officials on charges related to the conflict with Hamas, according to five Israeli and foreign officials.

The Israeli and foreign officials also believe the court is weighing arrest warrants for leaders from Hamas.

If the court proceeds, the Israeli officials could potentially be accused of preventing the delivery of humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip and pursuing an excessively harsh response to the Hamas-led Oct. 7 attacks on Israel, according to two of the five officials, all of whom spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to publicly discuss the matter.

The Israeli officials, who are worried about the potential fallout from such a case, said they believe that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is among those who might be named in a warrant. It is not clear who might be charged from Hamas or what crimes would be cited.

The Israeli officials did not disclose the nature of the information that led them to be concerned about potential I.C.C. action, and the court did not comment on the matter.

Arrest warrants from the court would probably be seen in much of the world as a humbling moral rebuke, particularly to Israel, which for months has faced international backlash over its conduct in Gaza, including from President Biden, who called it “over the top.”

It could also affect Israel’s policies as the country presses its military campaign against Hamas. One of the Israeli officials said that the possibility of the court issuing arrest warrants had informed Israeli decision-making in recent weeks.

The Israeli and foreign officials said they didn’t know what stage the process was in.  Any warrants would require approval from a panel of judges and would not necessarily result in a trial or even the targets’ immediate arrest.

Karim Khan, the court’s chief prosecutor, has previously confirmed that his team is investigating incidents during the war, but his office declined to comment for this article, saying that it does not “respond to speculation in media reports.”

Mr. Netanyahu’s office also would not comment, but on Friday the prime minister said on social media that any intervention by the I.C.C. “would set a dangerous precedent that threatens the soldiers and officials of all democracies fighting savage terrorism and wanton aggression.”

Mr. Netanyahu did not explain what prompted his statement, though he may have been responding to speculation about the arrest warrants in the Israeli press.

He also said: “Under my leadership, Israel will never accept any attempt by the ICC to undermine its inherent right of self-defense. The threat to seize the soldiers and officials of the Middle East’s only democracy and the world’s only Jewish state is outrageous. We will not bow to it.”

Based in The Hague, the I.C.C. is the world’s only permanent international court with the power to prosecute individuals accused of war crimes, genocide and crimes against humanity. The court has no police force of its own. Instead, it relies on its 124 members, which include most European countries but not Israel or the United States, to arrest those named in warrants. It cannot try defendants in absentia.

But warrants from the court can pose obstacles to travel for officials named in them.

The Hamas-led raid last October led to the killing of roughly 1,200 people in Israel and the abductions of some 250 others, according to Israeli officials. The subsequent war in Gaza, including heavy Israeli bombardment, has killed more than 34,000 people, according to Gazan officials, caused widespread damage to housing and infrastructure, and brought the territory to the brink of famine.

The Israeli assault in Gaza has led the International Court of Justice, a separate court in The Hague, to hear accusations of genocide against the Israeli state and has spurred a wave of protests on college campuses in the United States.

If the I.C.C. does issue arrest warrants, they would come with deep stigmatization, placing those named in them in the same category as foreign leaders like Omar al-Bashir, the deposed president of Sudan, and Vladimir V. Putin, the Russian president, who was the subject of a warrant last year tied to his war against Ukraine.

The I.C.C.’s focus on individuals rather than states differentiates it from the International Court of Justice, which settles disputes between states.

The I.C.C. judges have ruled that the court has jurisdiction over Gaza and the West Bank because the Palestinians have joined the court as the State of Palestine.

Mr. Khan has said that his team will be investigating incidents that have occurred since Oct. 7 and that he will be “impartially looking at the evidence and vindicating the rights of victims whether they are in Israel or Palestine.”

Mr. Khan’s office has also been investigating allegations of war crimes committed during the 2014 war between Israel and Hamas; one of the officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity believes the new arrest warrants would be an extension of that investigation.

Hamas and the Israeli military did not respond to requests for comment. The office of Yoav Gallant, the Israeli defense minister, declined to comment.

In general, Israeli officials say that they fight according to the laws of war and that they take significant steps to protect civilians, accusing Hamas of hiding inside civilian areas and forcing Israel to pursue them there. Hamas has denied committing atrocities on Oct. 7, saying — despite video evidence to the contrary — that its fighters tried to avoid harming civilians.

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21 hours ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

yes, about 7,000 - 10,000 Hamas fighters killed. IDF tends to bloat the numbers, US Intel is always less.  The Israeli propaganda will say they were all hiding, but why blow up an entire building killing 50-100 civilians to get 1 low level guy? In fact, IDF troops are on the ground just minutes away, so why not go in the same way Osama Bin Laden was taken? the US Navy could easily have blown up that house, but his entire family survived.     

edit, yes - Israel include any Hamas civil workers and policemen in the body count. US does not.

IDF has stated around 13K Hamas fighters killed.  Hamas says 32K civilians killed.  Both are probably inflated.

As for an airstrike vs a raid - OBL was in a compound and never left.  It was a static target.  They didn't drop a JDAM on it because it was in Pakistan.  We were not supposed to be in there or cross the border.  That's how he escaped the first time at the battle of Tora Bora.  If you watch the movie or read the book, that was the reason for the modified, stealth helicopters.  The other big reason was DNA confirmation was needed.  

This is more akin to the Battle of Fallujah (1 & 2) where the US basically leveled the entire city and inflicted tens of thousands of civilian casualties.  Neither the US or Israel did/is doing even a halfway decent job of distinguishing friend from foe and in both cases soldiers embed themselves extremely well in populated areas.  It's clumsy and crude and if you go house by house, can take months if not years to clear a city.  I think it was Chris Kyle talking about how the Marines used tanks at point blank range on buildings.  If they were getting shot at, regardless of who was in there, that building was gone.

Every urban battle turns the city into rubble and grinds the civilians into dust.  Look at what's happening in Ukraine now,  Russia can't ferret them out, so they just fuck it and level everything.  The Balkans, Hue, Stalingrad.  More recently Mosul.  Historically the ratio of civilian casualties to soldiers is 9:1.  That's not a justification, just that urban conflict when a portion of the population won't evacuate is a no-win situation for everyone.  With all the tunnels, drones won't really work.  

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48 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

IDF has stated around 13K Hamas fighters killed.  Hamas says 32K civilians killed.  Both are probably inflated.

As for an airstrike vs a raid - OBL was in a compound and never left.  It was a static target.  They didn't drop a JDAM on it because it was in Pakistan.  We were not supposed to be in there or cross the border.  That's how he escaped the first time at the battle of Tora Bora.  If you watch the movie or read the book, that was the reason for the modified, stealth helicopters.  The other big reason was DNA confirmation was needed.  

This is more akin to the Battle of Fallujah (1 & 2) where the US basically leveled the entire city and inflicted tens of thousands of civilian casualties.  Neither the US or Israel did/is doing even a halfway decent job of distinguishing friend from foe and in both cases soldiers embed themselves extremely well in populated areas.  It's clumsy and crude and if you go house by house, can take months if not years to clear a city.  I think it was Chris Kyle talking about how the Marines used tanks at point blank range on buildings.  If they were getting shot at, regardless of who was in there, that building was gone.

Every urban battle turns the city into rubble and grinds the civilians into dust.  Look at what's happening in Ukraine now,  Russia can't ferret them out, so they just fuck it and level everything.  The Balkans, Hue, Stalingrad.  More recently Mosul.  Historically the ratio of civilian casualties to soldiers is 9:1.  That's not a justification, just that urban conflict when a portion of the population won't evacuate is a no-win situation for everyone.  With all the tunnels, drones won't really work.  

the 32k , now 34k figure, is certainly an underestimate, only the known bodies are counted. 

Thousands of Gazans were killed, sometimes 1000 a day in the first few days even before IDF troops were even on the ground. Meaning self defense from being shot at is not an issue.  Besides, Israel has for years bombed the entire building to get 1 guy, even bombing entire streets murdering 15-20 to get someone in a car. 

The US killed hundreds of Pakistanis by airstrikes on Pakistani soil, so that wasn't an excuse to avoid a big bomb on Bin Laden. 

Edited by Make em eat Taco Bell
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2 minutes ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

the 32k , now 34k figure, is certainly an underestimate, only the known bodies are counted. 

Thousands of Gazans were killed, sometimes 1000 a day in the first few days even before IDF troops were even on the ground.

The US killed hundreds of Pakistanis by airstrikes on Pakistani soil, so that wasn't an excuse to avoid a big bomb on Bin Laden. 

No, I get it - there is little attention given to minimizing civilian casualties in urban combat.  Hamas and the IDF know this.  If Cartels invaded from Tijuana into SD and did what Hamas did, we'd nuke TJ from fucking orbit.  There's no moral high ground here.  There are no "proportional" response arguments that were entertained.  Hamas knew the IDF would lose their shit.  Just like OBL knew the US would lose their shit.  Israel also knew that if they keep shitting on the Gaza strip this shit is very much a probable outcome.  Israel isn't the good guy here, but they are allowing themselves to get pulled offsides and embroiled in the exact fight Hamas wants.  Israel has the tier 1 & 2 assets and decades with of urban fighting experience to do this in a more surgical way, they didn't fucking want to....and now it's too late.  History has too many examples illustrating that once you level a city, the advantage shifts to the defenders.

As for OBL.  They wanted a scalp and got it.  You could argue they needed DNA confirmation, they also probably wanted the site intact.  They left with a shit ton of hard drives, cell phones, written material, etc.  

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2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

No, I get it - there is little attention given to minimizing civilian casualties in urban combat.  Hamas and the IDF know this.  If Cartels invaded from Tijuana into SD and did what Hamas did, we'd nuke TJ from fucking orbit.  There's no moral high ground here.  There are no "proportional" response arguments that were entertained.  Hamas knew the IDF would lose their shit.  Just like OBL knew the US would lose their shit.  Israel also knew that if they keep shitting on the Gaza strip this shit is very much a probable outcome.  Israel isn't the good guy here, but they are allowing themselves to get pulled offsides and embroiled in the exact fight Hamas wants.  Israel has the tier 1 & 2 assets and decades with of urban fighting experience to do this in a more surgical way, they didn't fucking want to....and now it's too late.  History has too many examples illustrating that once you level a city, the advantage shifts to the defenders.

As for OBL.  They wanted a scalp and got it.  You could argue they needed DNA confirmation, they also probably wanted the site intact.  They left with a shit ton of hard drives, cell phones, written material, etc.  

the US military killed over 400,000 civilians in Afghanistan, Iraq, and parts of Pakistan from 1991 - 2022. I didn't realize the number was that high, and probably higher, close to 1 million Iraqis alone if we believe various human rights organizations.  Even then, I don't think the US went WW2 mode in Berlin/Tokyo randomly wiping out massive swaths of residential areas.  War ethics should conform with the modern weaponry but Israel has purposely destroyed almost all infrastructure, every hospital, all 12 universities rubble.  I think we agree IDF could have avoided much of the civilian death toll.

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2 minutes ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

the US military killed over 400,000 civilians in Afghanistan, Iraq, and parts of Pakistan from 1991 - 2022. I didn't realize the number was that high, and probably higher, close to 1 million Iraqis alone if we believe various human rights organizations.  Even then, I don't think the US went WW2 mode in Berlin/Tokyo randomly wiping out massive swaths of residential areas.  War ethics should conform with the modern weaponry but Israel has purposely destroyed almost all infrastructure, every hospital, all 12 universities rubble.  I think we agree IDF could have avoided much of the civilian death toll.

Yeah, I'd heard it was close to a million.  Afghanistan had/has little infrastructure to destroy, but we did destroy hundreds of poppy fields, but in Iraq we leveled close to 60% of all the buildings in Fallujah and just fucking wrecked Baghdad (including the use of cluster bombs - hardly precise)

As for Israel, I'd be curious (which we'll never know) what their intel reports were?  Were there JTACs on the ground?  Was Hamas embedded in those areas?  Apparently that happened all the time in Iraq (according to us anyway).  I tend to think Hamas is using their tried/true tactics of embedding.....but we all know this.  The IDF got pulled into a fight they can't win without turning the entire city to rubble and now they are stuck.  They fucked around and let this come to a boil, and now they are fighting a war they can't win - just like we were in the ME.  

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9 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Yeah, I'd heard it was close to a million.  Afghanistan had/has little infrastructure to destroy, but we did destroy hundreds of poppy fields, but in Iraq we leveled close to 60% of all the buildings in Fallujah and just fucking wrecked Baghdad (including the use of cluster bombs - hardly precise)

As for Israel, I'd be curious (which we'll never know) what their intel reports were?  Were there JTACs on the ground?  Was Hamas embedded in those areas?  Apparently that happened all the time in Iraq (according to us anyway).  I tend to think Hamas is using their tried/true tactics of embedding.....but we all know this.  The IDF got pulled into a fight they can't win without turning the entire city to rubble and now they are stuck.  They fucked around and let this come to a boil, and now they are fighting a war they can't win - just like we were in the ME.  

I don't think the US wrecked Baghdad, even the immediate aftermath of the bombing live show broadcast worldwide, reporters noted limited damage.  For Baghdad alone, the US was gentle in comparison to Israel.  We know IDF was using AI to find every single low level Hamas operative, killing 20-100 people in the building for 1 guy who wasn't even weaponized at the time. 

IIRC Falujah had 80% of civilians evacuated to the countryside before the US moved in. 

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