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Posted

The polarized political environment cannot be ignored.  Wife and husband both being moderates, but falling on opposite sides of the middle used to be a thing that happened.  It is nonexistent now - and with the widening split in male/female political leanings among the young folks... that's a recipe for a lack of second dates.  

Additionally, Gen Z has some WEIRD views on otherwise healthy relationships.  I've seen them refer to Seniors dating Juniors as "grooming", which can't be a healthy headspace to be in at that age.

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Posted
6 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

The single ones are socially active, going to bars, parties, girls night out shit. They will talk to guys. Some will go on dates. But if you a follower of Tate and any of that nonsense, you will not get a second date. They are keenly aware of the political environment and make no bones about avoiding dudes who wear a certain type of hat.

 

This is a big thing.

Women snuff out the BS pretty easily - most, but not all, do not take kindly to being told what to do with their body, trying to be coerced into tradwife bullshit and the Tate toxic masculinity stuff.  There was a whole thing in the last decade of single young male Trump supporters who didn't understand why they can't get dates or second dates with women

Uhh....duh. 

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Posted
1 minute ago, Chuckie Finster said:

I've seen them refer to Seniors dating Juniors as "grooming", which can't be a healthy headspace to be in at that age.

Any age gap on the internet is considered "grooming" or "creepy"

A 30 year old man dating a 23 year old woman is basically a hatefest of "omg, that is so creepy, date someone your own age, what a weirdo"

Age gaps didn't used to be so scrutinized unless it was obviously weird (20+ years, mid-to-late 20s dating late teens, etc). 

Posted

Eh, as I alluded to above, stop being a net negative in women’s lives and you’ll be fine. Understand what they want, provide that and boom you get the girl. 

Whether it’s politics, emotional IQ, money, picking up after yourself, helping around the house or whatever, be the excellent version of you and someone will buy. 

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Posted

I have a coworker that loves to create problems where they don't exist - all so she can provide tons of commentary on it and then be the hero who comes up with a solution. 

 

 

This thread is basically the same thing. 

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Posted
10 hours ago, Dnaguy said:

Triggering @immamac was not on my bingo card when creating this thread.

Working with younger men at my new place of employment (something I am not used to as I've always worked in fields with older work forces), has given me perspective / is why I'm so intrigued by this topic.

I work with one guy who knocked up his gf, they were married, and now is fucking hustling at 24. He hates how poor he is. He's grown up quick. It's not all bad for him though. His wife is a smoke show even after popping out a kid. Benefit of being young I guess.

Then I've some other young guys who have gainful employment, seem affable, and yet are not out there trying.

Look, I was no catch. I had shit game. I was employed, could hold a conversation, and am generally fun enough to be around for at least a couple outings.

I tried. All. the. time. Did I shoot a high percentage? God no.

I was eventually the lucky recipient of the downward slope of looks and expectations that women would accept. My mid to late 20's were fun. The caliber of girls that were out of my league in high school and college had to make some tough choices, and I was one of those least shitty ones.

Maybe the swipey apps took all the fire out of the belly, but when I'm the inappropriate one in the office, we have a problem.

I'm domesticated with kids. I should be horrified about your weekends and the places you woke up. But if all my stories can one-up yours? Nah.

Back in my day, we only had essentially one model that was celebrated:  completely hairless / skinny blonde Paris Hilton style.

Now there's a rainbow of colors of hair and skin, hair down there, bare, skinny, thicc, skinny thicc, and all flavors in between. We had these I guess. I was too stupid to realize it / girls were to shamed to flaunt it. It was sad when you think about it.

At no point in human history has man had the ability to go out and lay waste to as many and all varieties of ass. 

And yet, it would seem as if we are living in a 1930's Ukraine. All the fertile soil and abundance of the harvest, yet the people working the fields are starving to death.

I think this is actually some of the problem.  The ease of getting laid if you're not a troglodyte on the apps is exceptionally easy....which in turn means when a guy gets rejected they don't know how to handle it.  The other thing I read regarding the apps was that something like the top 20% of male profiles get 90% of the positive swipes.  And for girls its is more evenly distributed.  Meaning, the middle set of girls are getting attention from the top 20% of dudes and that's their expectation for a more meaningful relationship.  But when that top cohort of males looks to settle down they are not settling with a girl they'd fuck on a whim.  So you end up with the middle groups of men and women as dissatisfied, incel, not in a relationship, childless at 40, etc.  Because expectations get ruined.  

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, troph said:

Lot going on here but fundamentally the world changes, women can live on their own and their ability to want more or want different has evolved. Not every rule has changed but some have. 

I have a unique perspective, and I am raising 2 boys and have a 3rd out of the house. My 17 year old is a really good looking young man and he’s got adult level game. Doesn’t always translate to the teens but he has it going on.

all this talk about masculinity is toxic is nonsense. Toxic masculinity is a problem. Lazy masculinity is a problem. You want the girl, figure out what she wants and needs and provide it. 

what’s his secret? Starts simple - good hygiene, fantastic smile, pays attention to what he wears. He works out, keeps his truck clean, has money and is not concerned about spending it on good times with friends. He saves money too. From there he likes to have a good time, understands the power of telling a good story, making people laugh, and making people feel good about themselves. 

he knows how to appreciate, compliment, carry on a conversation and frankly has being a good conversationalist as his his number one trait he is looking for in a girl after physical attraction when looking to date. 

he understands his emotions, he can talk about them, he can be vulnerable and he also knows that tending to his emotional wounds and needs is his responsibility first but that being seen is critical to a positive relationship. He is slow to anger, he is a great listener. 

in his personal time he’s always learning and wanting to be a better version of himself. He knows how to make things, he knows how to take care of things, he loves the outdoors, camping, and other guy things. But he loves the theatre too. He’s not afraid to follow his interests. He’s NOT a gamer but when friends come over he will whip their ass at Mario kart. He buys video games to entertain his friends when they come over, but rarely plays alone.

when it comes to being a man his ideas are forming but I’m pretty sure if I asked him to articulate it based solely on my observations of what he does and what he says he would say something like this … 

Positive masculinity, being a successful man means knowing who you are, managing your life well so that you can include another human in your life and you can be a positive addition to theirs, making others around you feel more confident, secure and positive about themselves. At times helping to carry whatever burden needs to be carried whether it’s hanging art on the wall, fixing a leaky toilet, talking out a work problem or working through our own emotional crosswires. When times are good, making people laugh, making memories, and celebrating life’s small and large accomplishments. Above all else, being kind, having fun, and being a net positive in a relationship is the secret to a happy wife and a happy life. 

I’ll sum it up by saying this we went to a theatre production of what the constitution means to me and the premise is that the constitution has not protected women like it was supposed to. He left feeling bad, I asked him, he said, “you know, I’ll be fine, I’m a straight white guy, but many people I love aren’t going to be ok and that upsets me.” <— that right there is positive masculinity. 

this young man has dated about 10 girls in 3 years of high school and he’s on his 4th legit girlfriend. Only one girl refused to keep seeing him, he’s been the one to break up with them.

boys and men need to up their game, what women have to tolerate has changed and what they want is more clear and it will require boys and men to up their game. 

but its not a criticism of masculinity its a criticism of lazy masculinity. 

Really good post.  

To some of the other posts:

Yes, young women have their own issues, challenges, and shortcomings too.

Yes, the problem isn't with masculinity, but there are problems with lazy masculinity, toxic masculinity, and just plain lost masculinity.

I know that my wife's antenna went up when our son was just 6, as she observed that the American "school model" was not a great fit for boys.  And by "boys," we mean the typical behavior set: rough and tumble, attuned to movement (not sitting still in a chair all day), being interested in kinetic and kinesthetic activities and stories, etc.  Because many of the things that are inherent to masculine traits can manifest in negative ways (e.g., violence), in many ways we have set up systems to quash and/or ignore those traits.  When you have something that is your nature, but no safe or socially acceptable outlet for it, that's a recipe for problems down the road.

Layer onto that the changing economic landscape -- now that we have decades of women having something closer to equal opportunity, including equal access to higher education, men are falling behind.  See the gender imbalance in college enrollment.  Shit, I've seen it firsthand: if we're looking for top notch candidates to hire, the bulk of the good resumes we get are from women.  That's just the way it is these days.  So, that tier of men below the very top -- the "mid-range" guys -- are finding things much more challenging, and success is harder to find.  Many men are missing something, and they feel it, even if they don't know exactly what it is.

And there are folks out there like Andrew Tate capitalizing on that yearning.  I don't know this stuff firsthand, I don't listen to his shit.  But I've watched my son and his broad peer group, and see the "successful" models and the ones that are doing poorly.  The Andrew Tate crowd, the "completely absorbed by playing video games online to the exclusion of real socialization" crowd, are not doing well.  They are either wallowing about in loserdom, or are angry and bitter.  On the other side, the guys who are putting themselves out in the world, have some activity that is connectional, has them interacting with real live human beings.  I look at some of my son's best friends from high school, all of whom have gone in different directions at school, and are doing pretty well.

My son is tall, good looking, and really learned to socialize and be out in the world during his gap year in Berlin.  He's comfortable in a variety of social situations.  He plays college baseball (it's not American college, it's more like a club sport over there), so has friends from a variety of teams, travels to tourneys, etc.  He's confident, he's decent and kind, and smart enough.  He treats women well, and does well with them.  He has several female friends who are real-deal friends.

Another buddy is a college athlete, and has a hobby of buying and refurbishing go-karts for re-sale (he's an engineering student, loves working with his hands).  Cool bit -- that's a hobby he got into working with my son on a project go-kart we bought years ago.  Again, he's a good and kind guy, confident and outgoing, and he does great socially.

Another buddy is a freakish super-genius.  At the U of Toronto, doing PhD level work in the lab as a junior.  He is networking with other geniuses, getting his name out there.  Again, he's a good dude.  He's odd.....but in his world of odd dudes and chicks, he's at home, and puts himself out there.

There are plenty of models of male success, they're not hard to execute on, but I suspect that many men don't have access to them.  Or, they are led astray.  One interesting thing about the three guys I just listed above: none of them have a big presence on social media.  Sure, they have an Instagram and Snapchat, they connect with people online, they all online game some....but their primary life and social focus is NOT via social media.

Hell, I remember my social "turning point" in that 14-15 yr old timeframe.  I was definitely a nerd type, happy to be absorbed in books, and with my tight little group of other nerd friends.  But...I was also really interested in girls, and wanted to figure out how to expand my social world.  So, I observed.  I hung out with a broad group of folks at school, and watched how they interacted.  I also started paying some attention to how I dressed (it was the 80s....so some of my efforts in that respect were....unfortunate at first).  As I grasped a model on how to be more social, I started venturing out and doing more things.  Which took some courage and confidence of the "fake it till you make it" variety.  But putting myself out there, while it included some awkward missteps (again...I was 14-15), showed me how easy it was to succeed.  I wasn't bad looking.  I was outdoorsy and active.  I was smart and funny (chicks dig funny).  And, I was a decent person -- I had a moral compass, my parents raised me to be considerate and kind, all-in-all.  I looked up one day, and I realized that it was actually easy to meet girls and date them.  My son had a similar transition (although his was different in that his handicap was a personal illness and then COVID - he was always better looking and more charismatic than I was).  He was a bit of an introvert, and realized he needed to get past that.  So he moved to Berlin, and told himself that when he got there, he was going to say "yes" to every social opportunity, even if he'd rather retreat to his room and play Minecraft.  So he did.  And he learned a lot.  And he grew, and built skills and confidence.  You gotta be willing to put yourself out there and fail/stumble some.  

There are also some challenges in how we've redefined male and female interactions.  Female agency and consent are emphasized now -- which is a good thing.  But the messaging on that can be terrifying to a young man figuring out how to navigate relationships.  Telling men over and over that they are all rapists or potential rapists is not helpful.  Making young men even MORE scared to make the first move because they are worried about being accused of something is a real handicap. I remember my son actually voicing that fear to us, and we had to talk him through it.  The flip side of that is that, if a girl is interested, she is much more likely to make the move than she might have been in decades past.  But how do you approach women, with the sexual hunger and aggression that most of us recall and recognize, and do so in the "me too" era without going astray?  It's not easy.

Finally, how much of this is failed parenting, lack of mentoring?  I don't know.  I suspect it's no small part of it.  It's something we paid attention to at home, starting because of those concerns my smart wife spotted when the boy was in first grade.  

 

Edited by Brisketexan
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Posted

and my straight girlfriends in the middle of, contemplating or just finishing their divorces... what do I hear? 

"I'm tired of doing all the work."

"I don't want to be with a bump on a log."

"He has no idea what he wants, I can't live like this."

"the only thing he's good for is killing a snake and lifting heavy things."

all kinds of shit like that.

the answer is easy, do the fucking work, don't be lazy.

Posted
2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Really good post.  

 

and guess who is teaching him how to be a man?  a trans woman. You're god damn right I'm a groomer. I think I know a thing or two about gender and relationships.

Posted
34 minutes ago, troph said:

Whether it’s politics, emotional IQ, money, picking up after yourself, helping around the house or whatever, be the excellent version of you and someone will buy. 

Which raises the real question here: what are we going to do with our mediocre men?  Because, by definition, "mediocre or below" is at least half of all men.

Now, I see plenty of loser dipshits do just great with women....because there are plenty of loser dipshit women out there, too.  Really, the issue seems to be in that middle third of men and women.  As mid-range men fall behind and have less success, mid-range women don't see great partner prospects out there for them (see the dating app stat -- the top 20% of guys have their pick of the top 50% of women, and are pursuing them.  Those numbers don't match up well).

Posted
1 hour ago, BurntEyes said:

 

First agree with baboso. Don't fish much anymore due to time constraints, but miss it. @Brian Fantana What sort of fishing did you partake in? I'm asking as some there are wildly different experiences. Fly fishing trout in waders is vastly different that fly fishing trout on a float in Colorado. Neither is the same as spin or fly fishing trout or reds in the gulf. All of which are still different than trolling for sand bass, deep sea and certainly from bobber fishing at Lake Ray Hubbard. Some are incredible Zen, some super thrilling and some just meditation on relaxing.

I was mostly joking but when I fished a lot it was trout fishing from a boat in New Mexico mostly.

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Posted
3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Fuck yeah, I feel seen.

Sure, I'm happy for you, but when was the last time you made squirrel stew from your own culling.

That's what I thought city slicker!

Posted
1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

I was mostly joking but when I fished a lot it was trout fishing from a boat in New Mexico mostly.

Well, if you ever get a chance, do a float spin/fly trip on the Black, Snake or Taylor. If you're significant other enjoys outdoor adventure it would not suck to just ride along and camp. 

Posted
1 minute ago, BurntEyes said:

Sure, I'm happy for you, but when was the last time you made squirrel stew from your own culling.

That's what I thought city slicker!

Within the past 5 years.  The boy and I and one of our buddies had a great fucking afternoon hunting on a friend's place near Thrall.  All three of us, hopping fences and chasing down squirrels in the pecan trees.  It was a fucking blast, we were all laughing our asses off.

And yeah, it doesn't have to be hunting and fishing, but it helps.  Both of my kids appreciate growing up with that broad perspective of activities.  It makes them cooler, gives them the ability to interact with a diverse group of people, etc.  It's a life skill, being able to bullshit with a bunch of blue collar dudes telling lies around the campfire, or being able to talk fishing with a diverse group of people on the boat, etc.  There are other things that match up with this, doesn't have to be those -- work on a car in the driveway, build computers, play a sport, all kinds of shit that's real-world.

It's a trope to say that social media is poison, but it's a trope for a reason.

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Posted
3 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

I think this is actually some of the problem.  The ease of getting laid if you're not a troglodyte on the apps is exceptionally easy....which in turn means when a guy gets rejected they don't know how to handle it.  The other thing I read regarding the apps was that something like the top 20% of male profiles get 90% of the positive swipes.  And for girls its is more evenly distributed.  Meaning, the middle set of girls are getting attention from the top 20% of dudes and that's their expectation for a more meaningful relationship.  But when that top cohort of males looks to settle down they are not settling with a girl they'd fuck on a whim.  So you end up with the middle groups of men and women as dissatisfied, incel, not in a relationship, childless at 40, etc.  Because expectations get ruined.  

The apps.  Social Media.  The valley of unrealistic expectations.  Having to actually connect with someone face to face.  Going through the good times, and the the difficult.  

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Posted
10 minutes ago, troph said:

and my straight girlfriends in the middle of, contemplating or just finishing their divorces... what do I hear? 

"I'm tired of doing all the work."

"I don't want to be with a bump on a log."

"He has no idea what he wants, I can't live like this."

"the only thing he's good for is killing a snake and lifting heavy things."

all kinds of shit like that.

the answer is easy, do the fucking work, don't be lazy.

Most of this just sound like incompatibility but neither side wants to admit it.

My wife and I never argue, because we share the same values. We both agree on what is a "big deal" and what is just bullshit. Neither of us is too fussed about being neat freaks, but we don't live like pigs, either. If the trash needs to go out, we just take it out. My ex-wife would make a scene and act like the sky is falling, but would never take the trash out herself, heaven forbid. Neither my wife nor I have expectations that we require the other to live up to, other than normal shit like don't be an asshole. She can eat crackers in bed and I don't bat an eye. I can rip ass in the living room and she laughs instead of acting like I killed a child.

We like doing activities together, like going to estate sales, or playing at Top Golf and shit. But she isn't interested in going to college wrestling with me, and I'm not going to those dreadful christmas choir shows she likes. There's a nice balance. We don't have to spend 100% of our waking lives together, it's ok to do shit on your own. 

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Posted
1 minute ago, Sandman said:

Most of this just sound like incompatibility but neither side wants to admit it.

My wife and I never argue, because we share the same values. We both agree on what is a "big deal" and what is just bullshit. Neither of us is too fussed about being neat freaks, but we don't live like pigs, either. If the trash needs to go out, we just take it out. My ex-wife would make a scene and act like the sky is falling, but would never take the trash out herself, heaven forbid. Neither my wife nor I have expectations that we require the other to live up to, other than normal shit like don't be an asshole. She can eat crackers in bed and I don't bat an eye. I can rip ass in the living room and she laughs instead of acting like I killed a child.

We like doing activities together, like going to estate sales, or playing at Top Golf and shit. But she isn't interested in going to college wrestling with me, and I'm not going to those dreadful christmas choir shows she likes. There's a nice balance. We don't have to spend 100% of our waking lives together, it's ok to do shit on your own. 

though you didn't wade into professional or emotional issues too much here, I can say you don't sound like any of these guys.  there really are grown men who are absolute bumps on a log. like for real.

Posted
1 minute ago, Sandman said:

We like doing activities together, like going to estate sales, or playing at Top Golf and shit. But she isn't interested in going to college wrestling with me, and I'm not going to those dreadful christmas choir shows she likes. There's a nice balance. We don't have to spend 100% of our waking lives together, it's ok to do shit on your own. 

This is definitely a key to relationship success, and something my wife and I realized we liked about each other early on.  Even in college, we could go to a party, and end up going our separate ways, talking to different groups of people etc., then come back together at the end.  Neither of us got hurt feelings because our date wasn't glued to our hip all night.

She's always wanted me to indulge in going hunting, fishing, tailgating, etc. with my friends -- "go, have fun."  Shit, sometimes, it's been "you need to call Pescado Rojo and put together a fishing trip."  And likewise, she does girl's weekends, goes out to regular dinners with girlfriends, etc.  It's healthy for both of us.

All of that comes from mutual confidence, I think.  Hell, maybe part of the bigger social issue is a crisis of confidence.  Trying to build yourself up on social media is an exercise in faking it.  Being confident and successful in the real world is much more intimidating, but the thing is....it's just not that hard.

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Posted
11 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Not to be a complete reactionary here. I think a big part of the problem is that we have as a society done away with male only spaces. And of course, colleges and workplaces and jibs shouldn’t be closed to women. 

But the pendulum really swung and any male-only club or activity outside of a few sports got smashed along with the patriarchy.  When you made those things and spaces transgressive, then actual transgressives like Tate filled the gap.

I was reading an article a while back about how some wives in the UK elbowed their way into their husband’s model train club meetings because they didn’t think it was fair for them to keep women out. I think about that a lot. 

Did they take all the imitation crab meat?

Posted

There's endless media articles like this which are "young men struggling, women most affected." Articles like this are why young men have tuned out mainstream media because it's endless negativity. I'll believe women want to get rid of traditional gender roles when it's common for women to ask out men and pay for dates but that isn't going to happen. If young women aren't interested in dating that's perfectly fine but stop bashing young men because there's already too much of that.

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Posted (edited)

I think it's as simple as the primary media sources for that generation. Joe Rogan remains the top podcast whos primary demographic is young men and we know his approach to societal issues and "masculinity." UFC and its cast of horrible characters continues to increase in popularity and eclipsed boxing a long time ago, and boxing itself has lost most of its gentlemanly charm from prior generations. WWE used to be fun with over the top characters of all sorts, now the heels are beloved and 90% of the characters are just UFC types that aren't over the top acting, they speak directly to young male ego. The WWE did add women who can perform really well and can be considered empowering but lets be real most of the fans just see them as eyecandy. I don't know the solution, you would think that if women were rejecting them, they'd figure out that being a macho man dickhead doesn't work and they'd start acting normal but the nonstop onslaught of media trying to tell them that their definition of masculinity is correct might be too much to overcome even if pussy is on the line.  

Edited by 'stache
Posted

It's really funny how this thread is all stories about young men that don't have problems because it's actually not a problem. Where are the stories of the young men we all know that are incel morons, I wanna hear those stories.

Posted

Neither men or women are to blame. It's strange time for everyone. Everyone is pissed off about something. I mean EVERYONE. The internet is driving the madness.

The younger generation will sort out the new dating dynamics or we'll become like the other countries with negative fertility rates. 

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Posted
3 minutes ago, John80 said:

I'll believe women want to get rid of traditional gender roles when it's common for women to ask out men and pay for dates but that isn't going to happen.

Yeah, I see a lot of "I won't take your name" and "I won't combine incomes" but I never see any "Don't buy me an engagement ring". 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, troph said:

though you didn't wade into professional or emotional issues too much here, I can say you don't sound like any of these guys.  there really are grown men who are absolute bumps on a log. like for real.

Sure there are but there are plenty of grown women who are worthless as well.  I think this line of thinking has lost the script on what the real issues are for the younger generations, which as you and others have already pointed out, aren't exactly the same issues we faced at that age, and also aren't the same issues we're facing now as 40 and 50 year olds.

One of my best friends lost his wife to cancer about 6 years ago, and after a year or two he started dating again.  He's an engineering professional, financially stable, has two high school and college aged kids who are well adjusted and make good grades.  His deceased wife was also a professional and took care of her own shit. After a couple of years he started dating again, and what he's found are primarily women who are divorced who can't afford their own lives, and can't and won't take care of themselves.  Lots of gold-digging, lots of codepence.  He's looking for someone that is independent and capable, like his wife was, and he's not finding it.

But none of that's really at the core for the topic at hand.

Edited by utee94
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Posted
2 minutes ago, immamac said:

It's really funny how this thread is all stories about young men that don't have problems because it's actually not a problem. Where are the stories of the young men we all know that are incel morons, I wanna hear those stories.

My nephew is 33, MORBIDLY obese, and lives with my dad (his grandfather). He hasn't worked in a few years, last job was pizza delivery. He worked long enough to save the money for a nintendo switch and then asked my dad if he would kick him out if he quit his job. Dad said no, nephew quit the job. He allegedly has a health issue that prevents him from working and is currently on short term disability. I honestly don't think he's ever touched a titty in his life. He likes to paint warhammer figures at his mom's house and play in video game tournaments. 

To his credit, he (begrudgingly) helps with some day to day shit for my elderly father. Takes him to some appointments, go out to get him dinner, things like that. 

Posted
7 minutes ago, immamac said:

It's really funny how this thread is all stories about young men that don't have problems because it's actually not a problem. Where are the stories of the young men we all know that are incel morons, I wanna hear those stories.

I think the issues are probably overstated for clicks everytime some version of the original article gets circulated, but there is a very real issue of masculinity being marketed to young men these days in a pretty fucked up way and it definitly has reprecussions in the dating landscape.

Posted
11 minutes ago, immamac said:

It's really funny how this thread is all stories about young men that don't have problems because it's actually not a problem. Where are the stories of the young men we all know that are incel morons, I wanna hear those stories.

Seems to me like there's a lot more older men that are incel morons than younger ones, other than the Gen Z males that are basically chronically online hikikomori but there's probably not nearly as many of those as some people seem to think.

Posted
13 minutes ago, immamac said:

 Where are the stories of the young men we all know that are incel morons, I wanna hear those stories.

sir, this is a message board that is overwhelmingly male and where folks regularly post 50-100 times a day.

what could possibly lead you to believe we have any idea how to find incel morons

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Posted

The 2 biggest examples I know in my immediate circle of friends/ family who fit this discussion are actually my 2 brothers and they are 60+ years old.

One has never been married.  Never close.  All he does is work and sleep.  I think he has Rockford Files on endless replay on his TV. Never does shit on his days off or his vacations.  I would never wish that kind of companionship on any partner for him.
2nd one: Was married in his 20's. Divorced for "being a bump on a log" to borrow a phrase from this thread.  Lived with another lady in his 50's and she eventually booted his ass out for "being a bump on a log."  The funny part about his outlook is that anytime I get a suggested friend on FB that has huge hooters or otherwise extremely attractive; he will be listed as a "common friend."  He dreams of that knockout girl, but brings virtually NOTHING to the table.

The phenomenon is hardly new.

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Posted
3 minutes ago, Iceman said:

The 2 biggest examples I know in my immediate circle of friends/ family who fit this discussion are actually my 2 brothers and they are 60+ years old.

One has never been married.  Never close.  All he does is work and sleep.  I think he has Rockford Files on endless replay on his TV. Never does shit on his days off or his vacations.  I would never wish that kind of companionship on any partner for him.
2nd one: Was married in his 20's. Divorced for "being a bump on a log" to borrow a phrase from this thread.  Lived with another lady in his 50's and she eventually booted his ass out for "being a bump on a log."  The funny part about his outlook is that anytime I get a suggested friend on FB that has huge hooters or otherwise extremely attractive; he will be listed as a "common friend."  He dreams of that knockout girl, but brings virtually NOTHING to the table.

The phenomenon is hardly new.

this is the point...

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Posted
21 minutes ago, immamac said:

It's really funny how this thread is all stories about young men that don't have problems because it's actually not a problem. Where are the stories of the young men we all know that are incel morons, I wanna hear those stories.

The boy had experiences with each of the two archetypes at university.

One was one of his suitemates (they put 6 random people together in a shared suite, half male and half female).  One of the guys, Nial, ended up being an Andrew Tate disciple.  When they'd all go out, he'd hit on women way too aggressively and with little smoothness, and then get pissed that they wouldn't fall for his obvious charms (instead of thinking "huh...something I'm doing isn't working, maybe I should adjust my approach").  In short, the problem was everyone else, never him.  Finally, he started being abusive and demeaning to two of the women in the flat.  My son stepped in, that really pissed him off, and he went off on him.  He moved out, they don't speak any more, but when they see him around, he still isn't ever with a date, and still seems to be an angry dude.

The other was a roommate he interviewed and then let move into his next flat.  He was an intern with Barclays, doing technical work for them (the UK has a sort of hybrid higher ed-intern thing people can do, instead of university).  The job was 95% remote.  So, he just stayed in his room.  All the fucking time.  Terrible hygiene, the room smelled.  He'd leave food out in the kitchen, have food rot in the fridge, never take out the trash.  The boy tried to include him in some group activities, including girls.  Fella was just so painfully awkward.  He even admitted at one point, when my son laid down some rules on how to live like a civilized human, "yeah, I guess my dad should have taught me some of this stuff."  Eventually, he flamed out and moved back home.

Those are the two closest examples, but I'm sure the boy could share a shitload more.  He hangs out with a lot more 20 year old dudes than I do.

Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, immamac said:

this is the point...

right, masculinity isn't the problem, lazy masculinity is the problem (so is this stupid fucking alpha male masculinity bullshit).  but you're not paying attention if you think the landscape on what women have to tolerate hasn't changed. It's changed A LOT. Most men adapt because undefeated. but to keep up, average men do have to adapt and up their game now.

My oldest son has issues. I'd rather not share about them on the internet though.  My youngest is TBD, he's a gamer but he's also straight A's, leader in band, excels in music, and he's ambitious, works out, charming, funny and has cuteAF freckles, dimples and hazel eyes.... so when he decides he wants it, he could be ok. 

Edited by troph
Posted
1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

"this one time, at band camp...."

band ain't like band when we were in school. there are some good looking guys, fit as can be and some cute girls too. that's what happens in a school of 3500-4000.

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Posted
46 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Which raises the real question here: what are we going to do with our mediocre men?  Because, by definition, "mediocre or below" is at least half of all men.

Now, I see plenty of loser dipshits do just great with women....because there are plenty of loser dipshit women out there, too.  Really, the issue seems to be in that middle third of men and women.  As mid-range men fall behind and have less success, mid-range women don't see great partner prospects out there for them (see the dating app stat -- the top 20% of guys have their pick of the top 50% of women, and are pursuing them.  Those numbers don't match up well).

I'm glad someone finally brought this up.  Lost in these discussions is that the same things apply to women (at least half of them are mediocre or below, just like the guys). This discussion, every time it comes up, whether tacitly or explicitly, puts women on a pedestal by default and assumes the very traditional notion of women being the one who sets expectations that men must meet, when in reality it cuts both ways.  You reach a certain age, as most of us here have, where you've either been through a divorce or seen many friends and acquaintances go through one.  Can anyone honestly say that in every situation it's predominantly the man's lack of effort/attractiveness/etc. that leads to the split?  In my experience, at least, it's about right down the middle in terms of which partner was the piece of shit.   That's a hetero couple only observation.  All of my gay friends who settled down have stayed happily married, so whatever secret they've figured out, they need to share it with the straights.

Being toxic, or even just boring, is not a gender specific state of being.   Many aspects of traditional male/female gender roles are in the process of flipping or altering in some way, and mid-tier women will have to recalibrate their expectations just like mid tier men have done for most of modern history. 

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Posted
34 minutes ago, immamac said:

It's really funny how this thread is all stories about young men that don't have problems because it's actually not a problem. Where are the stories of the young men we all know that are incel morons, I wanna hear those stories.

We’re all 1% alpha top dogs of course it is skewed

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Samson's Wig said:

reminds me I sealed the deal with my current wife on an offshore fishing trip in Mexico. she saw me with my feet up relaxing, maxing life out catching wahoo or something like that, and thought damn she's got her life figured out. I want some of that.  fishing is always the answer. 

Edited by troph
  • Like 1
Posted
2 minutes ago, troph said:

reminds me I sealed the deal with my current wife on an offshore fishing trip in Mexico. she saw me with my feet up relaxing, maxing life out catching wahoo or something like that, and thought damn she's got her life figured out. I want some of that.  fishing is always the answer. 

Yeah but I bet you tipped like shit!!!!!

Posted
3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Yeah but I bet you tipped like shit!!!!!

what makes you say that? 25% but the key is, make sure she sees you doing it without it looking like your showing off.

  • Like 1
Posted
39 minutes ago, Iceman said:

I don't even know who Andrew Tate is.

and fuck y'all for making me look it up.

Same here, except for the “fuck y’all”.

That Tate guy seems like a genuine asshole (not the Surly kind).

  • Like 2
Posted
1 minute ago, troph said:

what makes you say that? 25% but the key is, make sure she sees you doing it without it looking like your showing off.

Mrs. Brat is always somewhat peeved when I tip - usually 25-30%.

Posted
3 minutes ago, troph said:

reminds me I sealed the deal with my current wife on an offshore fishing trip in Mexico. she saw me with my feet up relaxing, maxing life out catching wahoo or something like that, and thought damn she's got her life figured out. I want some of that.  fishing is always the answer. 

The friends I've had over the years who were the most naturally attractive to women were always the ones who were the most relaxed and positive.   Be chill, know how to smile and have fun, and remember that people, regardless of gender, are all essentially looking for the same thing.  The rest will take care of itself without a ton of effort.  Too many young men get caught up in their heads and worry themselves to the point of fearing women while simultaneously becoming a beatdown to be around.  That negative headspace isn't anything new.

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Posted
Just now, Armybrat said:

Mrs. Brat is always somewhat peeved when I tip - usually 25-30%.

I'm a good tipper, but my wife will even give me the side-eye if I only tip 25%.  She's pretty fucking free with my money.

I also gave the boy the speech about "not today, I know you're a poor student with no money, but once you start working, and you go to a bar to actually sit at the bar with a date, friends, whatever....tip nicely right at the start of the night.  Talk to the bartender, tell him/her 'I appreciate you taking good care of me tonight,' and slip them a 20 at the beginning of the night."  Doesn't have to be visible to anyone else, it's about having a rapport with the bartender, and being treated well and engaging with them.  The visibility is "huh, the bartender seems to think this guy is a great dude, I guess I should too."  If you go someplace frequently, and can do it with a regular bartender, even better.

At present, he's still bitching about spending 3 pounds on a pint of shitty Tennents, but he'll get there.

tennentslager_glasses.jpg

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