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Posted
2 hours ago, BillyBadAss said:

For the folks that think the Dems blundered this, what outcome did you want to see it as a success? 

In my eyes, if the Rs acquiesced and extended the subsidies, ultimately that would have helped the Rs, not the Dems. The Trump voters aren't getting the same info you and I are, they need to touch the stove and see the dysfunction affect them personally to be swayed. 

 So what was the desired outcome? 

Extend the shutdown longer to extract maximum pain to make the Rs look even less able to govern? I can see that I guess - but at the risk that it backfires or doesn't really change the opinions of the average low info Trump voter. 

Force the Rs to nuke to fillibuster? What good does that do the Dems? (asking honestly).  Can't they just nuke it next time they are in control if they want it out of the way? 

What? 

 

 

Pain. I wanted pain and chaos. It's the only thing people understand.

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Posted
1 hour ago, Dbeasy said:

You’re living in a fantasy world. 
image.gif.57bd3e1e755ae95349432998fe828b12.gif

No he isn't, I understand the cynicism of this board, but y'all don't grasp just how much damage MAGA and Republicans have suffered this year, and next year will be worse.

Posted
36 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You always skip over that last part.  It's the most important part.

We usually wind up the same place, but I’m a skeptic, not a cynic. GOP politicians and base democrats are both saying the same thing. That should be a big yellow flag.

35 minutes ago, Lamar said:

Congrats on the win!

I’m not a Democrat, it’s not my win. But I’m happy the GOP is so fractured. 
 

37 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Narrative is all that fucking matters. And I don't trust the Democrats to win it.

parroting GOP talking points isn’t the way to win, that’s for certain. 

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Posted
2 minutes ago, The Dog said:

 

I'm so goddamn sick of this argument. WE KNOW THE GOP WAS NEVER GOING TO SAVE HEALTHCARE. We knew they weren't going to back down. All everyone asked is to hold the line. DO NOTHING.

Trump and Republicans were being blamed for the shutdown. LET THEM DESTROY EVERYTHING AND TAKE THE FALL.  "But Hank, people will suffer! You don't care about them!" WE ARE ALREADY SUFFERING.  The pain needs to get EXPONENTIALLY worse to break the mass psychosis in the country. 

We were winning the narrative. And then willingly threw it away, and got nothing in return. 

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Posted
8 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

parroting GOP talking points isn’t the way to win, that’s for certain. 

You did it again. Having a realistic view of how this plays out is not a GOP talking point. You're better than this. 

 

Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

You did it again. Having a realistic view of how this plays out is not a GOP talking point. You're better than this. 

 

Realistic, eh?
Let’s try doing this differently. For those who think the GOP “won the shutdown,” what did they gain and what did it cost them?

Edited by Bozo_Casanova
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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

"We won, guys! People will hold Trump and Republicans accountable at the polls! They won't forgive or forget this!" 

 

Nice strawman, but as long as you’re going there, what happened last Tuesday?

Edited by Bozo_Casanova
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Posted
Just now, Bozo_Casanova said:

What happened last Tuesday?

Do you think those margins would have been as big if Dems weren't showing some fight and a spine during the shutdown?

 

 

Posted

Let's just ignore the very loud and very clear disappointment from the Dem electorate and many Ds in Congress who voiced their displeasure over the decision to cave.  Or even worse, let's gaslight them.

Posted
8 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Do you think those margins would have been as big if Dems weren't showing some fight and a spine during the shutdown?

 

 

They shut down the government for over a month and it cost them no support while the GOP was bleeding. What are you talking about?

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Posted

the war could have been won on this, this was the hill to die on. MAGA dies if they don't cave, full stop and in no uncertain terms and with no caveats. That's what Bozo doesn't get.

 

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Posted
8 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Do you think those margins would have been as big if Dems weren't showing some fight and a spine during the shutdown?

 

 

Yes.  I think the Dems would have done roughly the same in the non-Federal elections during a Federal shutdown.  I think the results demonstrate an intensifying trend: Democrats now do better in off-cycle elections.  Trump is able to bring out the voters when he is on the ballots, but much of MAGA doesn't care about anything but Trump.  

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Posted
3 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

They shut down the government for over a month and it cost them no support while the GOP was bleeding. What are you talking about?

Compromising definitely cost the Democrats support and opened up their left flank. 

Posted
5 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Let's just ignore the very loud and very clear disappointment from the Dem electorate and many Ds in Congress who voiced their displeasure over the decision to cave.  Or even worse, let's gaslight them.

Why not both? Maybe they should learn to win more elections and then they can get the policies they want. Until then, success is measured in terms of how much trouble they can create for the governing coalition without paying a political price.
In this case, it was a lot. 
 

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Posted
1 minute ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Why not both? Maybe they should learn to win more elections and then they can get the policies they want. Until then, success is measured in terms of how much trouble they can create for the governing coalition without paying a political price.
In this case, it was a lot. 
 

There was a lot of meat left on the bone. And you know it. 

 

Posted
4 minutes ago, immamac said:

the war could have been won on this, this was the hill to die on. MAGA dies if they don't cave, full stop and in no uncertain terms and with no caveats. That's what Bozo doesn't get.

 

Again, I think the Rs would have likely capitulated before things got too bad and accepted the offer to extend the subsidies for a single year. This would have been the worst possible outcome for Dems. Everyone will have forgotten about the shutdown in a year, and nobody would feel the pain of the increased premiums before the midterms. 

 

It seems you think the Rs would have held on long enough to tank the economy in ways that would still be felt next year - one can make some compelling arguments to that end, I'm sure, but to say it with "no uncertain terms and with no caveats"?  eh.. 

 

Posted
1 minute ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Let them keep bleeding?

This.  When your enemy is suffering, and it's getting worse.....keep it fucking going.  And then, keep it fucking going some more.  Don't stop until your enemy is a lifeless husk, AND you've lit that husk on fire.

This is an existential fight.

Someone should start treating it like one. 

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Posted
Just now, BillyBadAss said:

Everyone will have forgotten about the shutdown in a year

I believe there will be multiple shutdowns during the Idiot in Chief's term.

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Posted
3 minutes ago, BillyBadAss said:

Again, I think the Rs would have likely capitulated before things got too bad and accepted the offer to extend the subsidies for a single year. This would have been the worst possible outcome for Dems. Everyone will have forgotten about the shutdown in a year, and nobody would feel the pain of the increased premiums before the midterms. 

 

It seems you think the Rs would have held on long enough to tank the economy in ways that would still be felt next year - one can make some compelling arguments to that end, I'm sure, but to say it with "no uncertain terms and with no caveats"?  eh.. 

 

yes, because in chaos the Republicans fracture and don't even get to 50 votes to reopen the government even with the fillibuster gone. Also with the fillibuster gone they would be completely and utterly fucked. There would be so much shit passed or undone at midterms it would be the end of the GOP. It's the end of MAGA. People would have remembered the thanksgiving that they couldn't eat and that they couldn't travel to see their family for DECADES. 

They would have not only held on long enough, they would have done it in such embarrassing and completely incompetent and public fashion that the majority of those elected wouldn't be able to seek re-election because of the stink on them.

You are severely understating what the eventuality was. That eventuality involved a lot of pain from tens, if not hundreds of millions of Americans. 

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Posted
7 minutes ago, BillyBadAss said:

Again, I think the Rs would have likely capitulated before things got too bad and accepted the offer to extend the subsidies for a single year

No chance. These people have no desire to actually govern. 

 

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Posted
1 hour ago, The Dog said:

They were not "peeled off" but rather were selected by Schumer and the caucus to take the fall since none are up for re-election or are retiring. 

Yes. The actual number of Dems who wanted to end the shutdown was greater than the 8. I’d even wager at least one of the 8 voted against their own beliefs but were compelled to vote the way they did.

The notion that these were rogues is false. This was the work of Dem leadership and why Schumer needs to go.

 

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Posted
12 minutes ago, BillyBadAss said:

Again, I think the Rs would have likely capitulated before things got too bad and accepted the offer to extend the subsidies for a single year.

I think you vastly underestimate how much the Republicans hate the ACA.  They would have eliminated the filibuster well before funding the ACA.  

Posted
39 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Do you think those margins would have been as big if Dems weren't showing some fight and a spine during the shutdown?

 

 

To play Devils advocate, we’ve been asking for the Dems to play for naked political gain for awhile now and looks like they are finally executing the plan. I’d lump prop 50 in with this.

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Posted
1 minute ago, berlinerbaer said:

To play Devils advocate, we’ve been asking for the Dems to play for naked political gain for awhile now and looks like they are finally executing the plan. I’d lump prop 50 in with this.

What plan are they executing right now? 

 

 

Posted
12 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Let them keep bleeding?

Sure, But, how long before Democrats start paying the price? My guess is early next week. 
Pigs get fat. Hogs get slaughtered.

11 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

It's not what the GOP gained. It's what we lost. 

 

Which was?

13 minutes ago, BillyBadAss said:

Again, I think the Rs would have likely capitulated before things got too bad and accepted the offer to extend the subsidies for a single year.

Probably. It was the right thing to do, and it was worth taking it to next week to find out.  But saving the GOP from their own angry voters before the midterms isn’t something Democrats should pay a price for. At the end of the day the GOP is going to wear the price of healthcare going up into November unless they actually do something tangible to fix it (and they’ll need Democrats for that).
 

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Posted
2 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Here’s the funny part to me. Later this week, Donald Trump will probably have a signing ceremony where the shutdown will end and he will take credit and all of the GOP congressman that surround him will applaud his leadership and they will talk about how the Democrats caused all this and then caved and did it for nothing, and you guys will all nod your heads in agreement. 


Touch grass, fellas. Democrats came out of this better than they went in.  The GOP is at each other’s throats and losing confidence in Donald Trump, and consumers are increasingly angry at him about the state of the economy. Take the W and chill the fuck out. 

That MAGA is infighting isn't a material win.  That people are getting harmed by the current fascist regime is a material loss.  Giving them the power to harm more people is not a material win.    Your need to recalibrate what matters and what doesn't matter.

Posted
1 minute ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Pigs get fat. Hogs get slaughtered.

We don't need all of our hogs to survive.  We just need one more than the GQP has.

What y'all consistently fail to get is that the slaughter is on, and ongoing.  There is not "avoid casualties" option anymore.  We are long past that point.  We are at point "when the dust clears, have more people alive in the rubble than your opponent does....then finish the job."

The village cannot be saved.  Civilian casualties are a foregone conclusion.  Stop worrying about that sort of thing.  That's loser talk, ESPECIALLY when your opponent will gleefully target civilians to get you to cave.  Accept the fact that (1) the collateral damage is going to be horrifying, and (2) it has to happen in order to have any chance of having any surviving Republic on the other side of this.

We've been invaded by old-school 20th century fascists, enabled by a massive fifth column within our country.  Fight back accordingly.

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Posted

It's been touched on in this thread, but what gets me even more than the caving is the complete messaging failure.  EVEN IF it was predetermined that Dems were going to end the shutdown, there is a smart way to communicate it.  "Democrats are ensuring that nobody suffers during the holiday season but will renew the fight for your rights in January" or some shit.  Instead we get "standing up to Trump didn't work."

Pathetic.
 

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Posted
2 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Touch grass, fellas. Democrats came out of this better than they went in.  The GOP is at each other’s throats and losing confidence in Donald Trump, and consumers are increasingly angry at him about the state of the economy. Take the W and chill the fuck out. 

angry adam sandler GIF

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Posted
1 minute ago, Chuckie Finster said:

It's been touched on in this thread, but what gets me even more than the caving is the complete messaging failure.  EVEN IF it was predetermined that Dems were going to end the shutdown, there is a smart way to communicate it.  "Democrats are ensuring that nobody suffers during the holiday season but will renew the fight for your rights in January" or some shit.  Instead we get "standing up to Trump didn't work."

Pathetic.
 

It's a great point. Instead of trying to own a strong message they capitulated quickly like a thief in the night. 

Posted

Bozo has the mistaken view that pointing out the true reality of a situation is somehow nothing more than a Republican talking point. That logic is so flawed it’s mind bottling. These are two different topics.

Posted (edited)

The Democrats are just there to give the illusion of choice.  When there are only two guys in a race which one of them has to win, how do you ensure you always pick a winner?  You buy both sides, of course.  There are a handful of progressive Democrats in Congress.  A small handful.  The rest of them are Republicans who don't like to look mean/evil.  They have the same pay masters the Republicans do in Israel and the corporations.  So of course they were going to cave.  Have the shutdown go on long enough to pretend like you gave a shit and then pull the rug before the holidays so nothing actually changes.  Average Americans will continue taking it up the ass while the rich/wealthy continue to get everything.

image.jpeg.8c8cd57b0eece4c57a925a75ff7294bf.jpeg

Outside of the few truly good actors like Bernie or AOC, the entire Democratic Party is behind Americans losing their healthcare.  Chuck and them will go out and say they're voting no and want to keep the shutdown running, but in reality it's just the typical rotating cast of villains.  Senators who aren't up for election for a few years have to take the PR hit so Chuck and the rest can play pretend.  This slow march towards fascism and kleptocracy only happened because the Democrats were willing participants in it the entire time.  

Edited by SpiralOut
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Posted
2 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

You are wrong. Full stop.
Hostility to crypto in general and bitcoin in particular played a crucial, decisive role in the erosion of Democratic support among minorities and the shift of young men to the GOP and Trump in 2024. 

You had me until “decisive”.   Disillusionment at the economy and affordability when coupled with crypt keeper Biden until,  “Wait - the replacement is a colored woman” was decisive. 

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Posted
1 minute ago, Gatorubet said:

You had me until “decisive”.   Disillusionment at the economy and affordability when coupled with crypt keeper Biden until,  “Wait - the replacement is a colored woman” was decisive. 

It’s never just one thing, but the impact of that one thing was in excess of Trump’s margin of victory.  

Posted
1 hour ago, The Dog said:

 

Right. Agree. But that’s the point. The only way people will learn is actual pain. When they experience that pain and realize it’s coming from republicans, perhaps they will think better of their votes going forward. 

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Posted
30 minutes ago, Nivek said:

That MAGA is infighting isn't a material win.  That people are getting harmed by the current fascist regime is a material loss.  Giving them the power to harm more people is not a material win.    Your need to recalibrate what matters and what doesn't matter.

We the People already gave them that power. Making them own what they’ve done the only thing Democrats can do right now. 

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Posted

I think the disconnect within Dem electorate is between (at least) two factions. One believes in the "just win, baby" mantra when it comes to upcoming elections, that regaining "power" in 2026 or 2028 is enough. The other believes there needs to be a complete repudiation of Trump/MAGA in order for the country to survive. 

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Posted
8 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Right. Agree. But that’s the point. The only way people will learn is actual pain. When they experience that pain and realize it’s coming from republicans, perhaps they will think better of their votes going forward. 

I agree actual pain is what will make people learn (well, not MAGA because they are brainwashed beyond hope thanks to the conservative media sphere.)

Democrats basically said "ok GOP you win! everyone enjoy your higher medical premiums. see you in January."

Posted
2 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Touch grass, fellas. 

I have only read this thread amused/dismayed by how many think this makes a difference. Brisket writes enough in alignment of my POV that it hardly seems necessary that I comment much.

But the douchiness of posting the above while having 15913 posts on a message board, as of this writing, just needs to be noted at least one time. Also, the "this too shall pass" paternalism behind the comment is ridiculous. Probably the only thing standing between us a Trump coronation is his death.

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Posted (edited)

Your homeland is being transformed into a fascist state in real time, brown people are being deported for being brown, women have lost a bunch of their rights, and social safety nets are being cut left and right by wealthy "Christians," who are also whitewashing history books and going full xenophobe about everywhere except freaking South Africa, and we're in about the 2nd inning of this thing, but just go touch some grass, y'all.  Why so serious?

Edited by TexArcher
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Posted
57 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

It's been touched on in this thread, but what gets me even more than the caving is the complete messaging failure.  EVEN IF it was predetermined that Dems were going to end the shutdown, there is a smart way to communicate it.  "Democrats are ensuring that nobody suffers during the holiday season but will renew the fight for your rights in January" or some shit.  Instead we get "standing up to Trump didn't work."

Pathetic.
 


This^^^

They tried to end it on a Sunday night of a holiday weekend to try and avoid any outrage before it concluded. Trump casually dropped the Giuliani etc. pardon the same night hours after the voting started because they knew this was going to blow up back in the Dems faces by Monday morning and pardon news would get lost in the shuffle. Dems could have waited and made a big public showing of their ending the shutdown like you’re saying, but they knew it wasn’t going to go over well and tried to rush it through. 



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