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Posted
2 hours ago, BillyBadAss said:

For the folks that think the Dems blundered this, what outcome did you want to see it as a success? 

In my eyes, if the Rs acquiesced and extended the subsidies, ultimately that would have helped the Rs, not the Dems. The Trump voters aren't getting the same info you and I are, they need to touch the stove and see the dysfunction affect them personally to be swayed. 

 So what was the desired outcome? 

Extend the shutdown longer to extract maximum pain to make the Rs look even less able to govern? I can see that I guess - but at the risk that it backfires or doesn't really change the opinions of the average low info Trump voter. 

Force the Rs to nuke to fillibuster? What good does that do the Dems? (asking honestly).  Can't they just nuke it next time they are in control if they want it out of the way? 

What? 

 

 

Pain. I wanted pain and chaos. It's the only thing people understand.

  • Hook 'Em 2
Posted
1 hour ago, Dbeasy said:

You’re living in a fantasy world. 
image.gif.57bd3e1e755ae95349432998fe828b12.gif

No he isn't, I understand the cynicism of this board, but y'all don't grasp just how much damage MAGA and Republicans have suffered this year, and next year will be worse.

Posted
36 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You always skip over that last part.  It's the most important part.

We usually wind up the same place, but I’m a skeptic, not a cynic. GOP politicians and base democrats are both saying the same thing. That should be a big yellow flag.

35 minutes ago, Lamar said:

Congrats on the win!

I’m not a Democrat, it’s not my win. But I’m happy the GOP is so fractured. 
 

37 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Narrative is all that fucking matters. And I don't trust the Democrats to win it.

parroting GOP talking points isn’t the way to win, that’s for certain. 

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Posted
2 minutes ago, The Dog said:

 

I'm so goddamn sick of this argument. WE KNOW THE GOP WAS NEVER GOING TO SAVE HEALTHCARE. We knew they weren't going to back down. All everyone asked is to hold the line. DO NOTHING.

Trump and Republicans were being blamed for the shutdown. LET THEM DESTROY EVERYTHING AND TAKE THE FALL.  "But Hank, people will suffer! You don't care about them!" WE ARE ALREADY SUFFERING.  The pain needs to get EXPONENTIALLY worse to break the mass psychosis in the country. 

We were winning the narrative. And then willingly threw it away, and got nothing in return. 

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Posted
8 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

parroting GOP talking points isn’t the way to win, that’s for certain. 

You did it again. Having a realistic view of how this plays out is not a GOP talking point. You're better than this. 

 

Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

You did it again. Having a realistic view of how this plays out is not a GOP talking point. You're better than this. 

 

Realistic, eh?
Let’s try doing this differently. For those who think the GOP “won the shutdown,” what did they gain and what did it cost them?

Edited by Bozo_Casanova
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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

"We won, guys! People will hold Trump and Republicans accountable at the polls! They won't forgive or forget this!" 

 

Nice strawman, but as long as you’re going there, what happened last Tuesday?

Edited by Bozo_Casanova
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Posted

Let's just ignore the very loud and very clear disappointment from the Dem electorate and many Ds in Congress who voiced their displeasure over the decision to cave.  Or even worse, let's gaslight them.

Posted
8 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Do you think those margins would have been as big if Dems weren't showing some fight and a spine during the shutdown?

 

 

They shut down the government for over a month and it cost them no support while the GOP was bleeding. What are you talking about?

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Posted

the war could have been won on this, this was the hill to die on. MAGA dies if they don't cave, full stop and in no uncertain terms and with no caveats. That's what Bozo doesn't get.

 

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Posted
8 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Do you think those margins would have been as big if Dems weren't showing some fight and a spine during the shutdown?

 

 

Yes.  I think the Dems would have done roughly the same in the non-Federal elections during a Federal shutdown.  I think the results demonstrate an intensifying trend: Democrats now do better in off-cycle elections.  Trump is able to bring out the voters when he is on the ballots, but much of MAGA doesn't care about anything but Trump.  

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Posted
3 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

They shut down the government for over a month and it cost them no support while the GOP was bleeding. What are you talking about?

Compromising definitely cost the Democrats support and opened up their left flank. 

Posted
5 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Let's just ignore the very loud and very clear disappointment from the Dem electorate and many Ds in Congress who voiced their displeasure over the decision to cave.  Or even worse, let's gaslight them.

Why not both? Maybe they should learn to win more elections and then they can get the policies they want. Until then, success is measured in terms of how much trouble they can create for the governing coalition without paying a political price.
In this case, it was a lot. 
 

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Posted
1 minute ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Why not both? Maybe they should learn to win more elections and then they can get the policies they want. Until then, success is measured in terms of how much trouble they can create for the governing coalition without paying a political price.
In this case, it was a lot. 
 

There was a lot of meat left on the bone. And you know it. 

 

Posted
4 minutes ago, immamac said:

the war could have been won on this, this was the hill to die on. MAGA dies if they don't cave, full stop and in no uncertain terms and with no caveats. That's what Bozo doesn't get.

 

Again, I think the Rs would have likely capitulated before things got too bad and accepted the offer to extend the subsidies for a single year. This would have been the worst possible outcome for Dems. Everyone will have forgotten about the shutdown in a year, and nobody would feel the pain of the increased premiums before the midterms. 

 

It seems you think the Rs would have held on long enough to tank the economy in ways that would still be felt next year - one can make some compelling arguments to that end, I'm sure, but to say it with "no uncertain terms and with no caveats"?  eh.. 

 

Posted
1 minute ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Let them keep bleeding?

This.  When your enemy is suffering, and it's getting worse.....keep it fucking going.  And then, keep it fucking going some more.  Don't stop until your enemy is a lifeless husk, AND you've lit that husk on fire.

This is an existential fight.

Someone should start treating it like one. 

Posted
Just now, BillyBadAss said:

Everyone will have forgotten about the shutdown in a year

I believe there will be multiple shutdowns during the Idiot in Chief's term.

Posted
3 minutes ago, BillyBadAss said:

Again, I think the Rs would have likely capitulated before things got too bad and accepted the offer to extend the subsidies for a single year. This would have been the worst possible outcome for Dems. Everyone will have forgotten about the shutdown in a year, and nobody would feel the pain of the increased premiums before the midterms. 

 

It seems you think the Rs would have held on long enough to tank the economy in ways that would still be felt next year - one can make some compelling arguments to that end, I'm sure, but to say it with "no uncertain terms and with no caveats"?  eh.. 

 

yes, because in chaos the Republicans fracture and don't even get to 50 votes to reopen the government even with the fillibuster gone. Also with the fillibuster gone they would be completely and utterly fucked. There would be so much shit passed or undone at midterms it would be the end of the GOP. It's the end of MAGA. People would have remembered the thanksgiving that they couldn't eat and that they couldn't travel to see their family for DECADES. 

They would have not only held on long enough, they would have done it in such embarrassing and completely incompetent and public fashion that the majority of those elected wouldn't be able to seek re-election because of the stink on them.

You are severely understating what the eventuality was. That eventuality involved a lot of pain from tens, if not hundreds of millions of Americans. 

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Posted
7 minutes ago, BillyBadAss said:

Again, I think the Rs would have likely capitulated before things got too bad and accepted the offer to extend the subsidies for a single year

No chance. These people have no desire to actually govern. 

 

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Posted
1 hour ago, The Dog said:

They were not "peeled off" but rather were selected by Schumer and the caucus to take the fall since none are up for re-election or are retiring. 

Yes. The actual number of Dems who wanted to end the shutdown was greater than the 8. I’d even wager at least one of the 8 voted against their own beliefs but were compelled to vote the way they did.

The notion that these were rogues is false. This was the work of Dem leadership and why Schumer needs to go.

 

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Posted
12 minutes ago, BillyBadAss said:

Again, I think the Rs would have likely capitulated before things got too bad and accepted the offer to extend the subsidies for a single year.

I think you vastly underestimate how much the Republicans hate the ACA.  They would have eliminated the filibuster well before funding the ACA.  

Posted
39 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Do you think those margins would have been as big if Dems weren't showing some fight and a spine during the shutdown?

 

 

To play Devils advocate, we’ve been asking for the Dems to play for naked political gain for awhile now and looks like they are finally executing the plan. I’d lump prop 50 in with this.

Posted
1 minute ago, berlinerbaer said:

To play Devils advocate, we’ve been asking for the Dems to play for naked political gain for awhile now and looks like they are finally executing the plan. I’d lump prop 50 in with this.

What plan are they executing right now? 

 

 



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