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Things not going well in Venezuela

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7 minutes ago, Laxtonto said:

There has been a long-standing, steady echo of the need to make the resort owners whole in South Florida. Bigger yet are the sugar plantations and nickel mines that were nationalized. This would be billions of dollars and would radically change Cuba.

Think about how different the Caribbean would be if Cuba were the playground of the US. Make it a rival to Las Vegas with year-round beaches and beautiful Cuban beauties. Make Havana the destination for those looking for a beach vacation instead of Cozumel, the Caymans, or Jamaica. This would hurt Mexico significantly from a tourism standpoint and provide a huge boost to the Gulf economy. It would most likely lead to more stability in the Caribbean and freeze out many of the ideological movements in the region. Lots of the revolutionary mindset and corruption in the Caribbean are byproducts of Cuba's safe haven.

?u=https%3A%2F%2Fc8.alamy.com%2Fcomp%2F2

I just want some cigars and to see the donkey show with Johnny Ola.

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  • Carrizo Chorizo
    Carrizo Chorizo

    Trump has focused heavily on foreign policy to his own detriment. I wish he would focus more domestically, but what can I do? Let's go way back to January 2025. What was one of the first big push

  • So, just so we're clear on your logical consistencies: Supplying weapons and funding to a sovereign nation who was invaded unprovoked by a country with a heavily vested interest in destabilizing the

  • Fudge Nuggets
    Fudge Nuggets

    We need the War Crimes tribunal to send the dotard a fake letter asking him to show up in The Hague to receive his Nobel Peace Prize like the cops do with  free TVs for crooks with outstanding warrant

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13 minutes ago, Hmbre97 said:

Yeah, China for sure won't use this as justification for action i.e. Taiwan

Was China looking for justification? Is this the trigger for an invasion they weren't going to do, until just now? Wow!

10 minutes ago, Foosters said:

"We're gonna be running it (Venezuela) as a group. We're gonna run it properly. We're gonna invest billions in the oil infrastructure."

"We're not afraid of boots on the ground, we don't mind saying it. We're not afraid of running it properly."

Lmao

Were you expecting that US companies weren't going to be involved resuscitating the Venezuelan industry and fields? We're the only ones with the technology to fix their fields, with refineries that can handle their crude uncut. We're the ones that made it viable in the 80s and 90s. To think otherwise is naive.

Edited by MagicSoccerSpray

24 minutes ago, El Mas Chingon said:

That is on the list of possibilities. Although low in my opinion.

How have things been going in Venezuela recently? Super duper?

FWIW my Venezuelan cleaning lady and her family back home are all very excited about this. People here need to quit stanning for Maduro.

Why is this so hard for people to understand? They were an outpost for Chinese, Russian and even Iranian influence in our hemisphere. Also, to a lesser extent drug trafficking.

TDS on display.

He reasserted a policy that is over 200 years old. Today is a good day for the USA.

Your ability to be consistently wrong is impressive.

Just quoting to say that obviously the US has not had a single policy in LatAm on what the Monroe Doctrine is or how it's to be employed. TR was not FDR was not JFK was not Carter who was not Reagan.

5 minutes ago, El Mas Chingon said:

What are you opposing exactly?

And they should never be cut in. Would’ve leaked it obviously.

Yall oppose this.

Yes absolutely

11 minutes ago, MagicSoccerSpray said:

You're right, the US should give up defending its interests, and enacting it's foreign policy objectives for the foreseeable future, because it did so poorly in the past. Isolationism has always been an effective and viable policy going back centuries. MTG whole-heartedly agrees.

You do know what trump campaigned on right? "No more wars" "America First" and other such isolationism? This move is 180° different from what he said a year ago. Tariffs are fucking isolationism!! You doughnut

13 minutes ago, MagicSoccerSpray said:

And Trump pardoned that president because he's a moron who cares about himself first, second, and third. The country comes after.

If you understand this, I am baffled why you think this move is good for the country.

Truly, some impressive doublethink!

1 hour ago, El Mas Chingon said:

but what’s the worst that could happen?

Trump could think this regime change thing is easy and try it elsewhere like Cuba or Iran. And controlling Venezuela means Rubio has the economic means to squeeze Cuba.

Also, Russia considers Zelenskyy to be illegitimate as does China with Taiwan’s President, so Trump just gave more ammo to our enemies.

14 minutes ago, Laxtonto said:

There has been a long-standing, steady echo of the need to make the resort owners whole in South Florida. Bigger yet are the sugar plantations and nickel mines that were nationalized. This would be billions of dollars and would radically change Cuba.

Think about how different the Caribbean would be if Cuba were the playground of the US. Make it a rival to Las Vegas with year-round beaches and beautiful Cuban beauties. Make Havana the destination for those looking for a beach vacation instead of Cozumel, the Caymans, or Jamaica. This would hurt Mexico significantly from a tourism standpoint and provide a huge boost to the Gulf economy. It would most likely lead to more stability in the Caribbean and freeze out many of the ideological movements in the region. Lots of the revolutionary mindset and corruption in the Caribbean are byproducts of Cuba's safe haven.

Are you retarded?

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15 minutes ago, El Mas Chingon said:

What are you opposing exactly?

And they should never be cut in. Would’ve leaked it obviously.

Yall oppose this.

No one opposes the outcome of maduro being gone. They oppose how Maduro was illegally removed. There's a real something there more than hand waving and political side picking. If you don't understand the difference then you are trolling.

Just now, immamac said:

No one opposes the outcome of maduro being gone. They oppose how Maduro was illegally removed. There's a real something there more than hand waving and political side picking. If you don't understand the difference then you are trolling.

Don't engage GRU just report and move on

I live in Spain and there are a shit ton of Venezuelans refugees here. They all despise Maduro. He has cratered the country (GDP is down 80% or something), imprisioned and murdered thousands, promised free elections in exchange for sanctions relief then engaged in one of the most brazen election thefts of all time. All the while (at an absolute minimimum) facilitating some pretty signficant drug/cartel activitiy and helping other countries avoid sanctions with Venzeuelan oil.

I am about as stringent an isolationist as you will find. But no one is going to shed a tear around the world for Maduro and it's pretty incredible to me that he continually acted as he has while sitting on the world's largest oil reserves. You'll see some bland "concerned" comments from the usual suspects, but a lot of silence and a lot of quiet agreement that this may have been for the best.

I hate that we'll have folks involved in the transition, but if you are committed to taking the step of pluking Maduro from his bed, zero US involvement in the transition is probably a messier/more de-stabilitzing result. He is no friend to the US or the globe, I'm glad he's gone, and I hope to god we don't fuck up the transition.

9 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Think of this in comparison to Crimea or what China might do to Taiwan. Blockade, lots of strikes on drug boats just to get people used to our presence and slowly shift the norms. A series of conflicting but also self-reinforcing demands and explanations. Cultivating ties with opposition figured to boost credibility.

A large military force comes in, grabs the President, and takes him to NYC. We announce its a “law enforcement” operation.

Then we say we will “run the country” but don’t explain how or what except that we will get the oil fields running. We leave it open to interpretation what that means and maybe we haven’t even decided, leaving ambiguity.

Did we go to war? Did we do a regime change? Did we just arrest a criminal? All of those? Something else?

Very Russian vibes. Hybrid/gray zone. We just didn’t use little green men, we used “FBI and DEA agents” that are clearly not FBI or DEA. And an amphibious assault ship that also doesn’t belong to the DEA.

We murdered fishermen, the indictment of Maduro is legally pathetic, and we arrested his wife because... why exactly? Bombing a country that posed no threat to the US, along with killing people in small boats so we could pound our chest, takes zero strategic planning.

7 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

Just quoting to say that obviously the US has not had a single policy in LatAm on what the Monroe Doctrine is or how it's to be employed. TR was not FDR was not JFK was not Carter who was not Reagan.

And Monroe himself didn’t have the ability to back it up and outsourced it to the British. It’s always been a general warning to outside the hemisphere powers that the United States considered itself the regional hegemon with a lot of leeway on what that means tied to ambition and capabilities.

1 minute ago, Chopper said:

We murdered fishermen, the indictment of Maduro is legally pathetic, and we arrested his wife because... why exactly? Bombing a country that posed no threat to the US, along with killing people in small boats so we could pound our chest, takes zero strategic planning.

You seem to be confusing explanation with endorsement, so I’ll abandon this exchange here.

32 minutes ago, Chopper said:

Trump is motivated by democratic principles!

tell me GIF

Of course he is!! Just wait until people begin to understand that Venezuela won't be getting the leader they want, but rather the leader Trump chooses for them.

Liberation? Democracy? Remedy for a stolen election? Eh, not so much.

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6 minutes ago, Keef said:

I live in Spain and there are a shit ton of Venezuelans refugees here. They all despise Maduro. He has cratered the country (GDP is down 80% or something), imprisioned and murdered thousands, promised free elections in exchange for sanctions relief then engaged in one of the most brazen election thefts of all time. All the while (at an absolute minimimum) facilitating some pretty signficant drug/cartel activitiy and helping other countries avoid sanctions with Venzeuelan oil.

I am about as stringent an isolationist as you will find. But no one is going to shed a tear around the world for Maduro and it's pretty incredible to me that he continually acted as he has while sitting on the world's largest oil reserves. You'll see some bland "concerned" comments from the usual suspects, but a lot of silence and a lot of quiet agreement that this may have been for the best.

I hate that we'll have folks involved in the transition, but if you are committed to taking the step of pluking Maduro from his bed, zero US involvement in the transition is probably a messier/more de-stabilitzing result. He is no friend to the US or the globe, I'm glad he's gone, and I hope to god we don't fuck up the transition.

None of this matters. We can’t just ignore the rule of law and bring the force of the US military to bear because the target is an asshole. That is all completely beside the point.

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9 minutes ago, immamac said:

I didn't see enough to decide if gru yet. Banhammer is ready if i see more though.

Joining this morning and jumping into this thread with both feet seems a pretty strong indicator imo

2 minutes ago, Captainant said:

You do know what trump campaigned on right? "No more wars" "America First" and other such isolationism? This move is 180° different from what he said a year ago. Tariffs are fucking isolationism!! You doughnut

What makes you think I agreed with him? I didn't, and isolationism is dumb, not viable, and never really has been.

He can be a moron, and still do useful and good things, like kill Solemani, damage Iran's nuclear program, and depose Maduro. It's possible for both to be true. I am generally not a fan, but I'm also not such a dumb political cultural warrior that I overlook actions that advance my countries' interests.

2 minutes ago, Captainant said:

If you understand this, I am baffled why you think this move is good for the country.

Truly, some impressive doublethink!

Venezuelan socialism specifically, and Latin American leftism generally, have been a bleeding sore in the western hemisphere for far too long. Cuba should fall soon, and other erstwhile populist leftists like Columbia and Nicaragua's leaders will be weakened. Only Lula has a chance at maintaining his stance... till he's dead or voted out. Any chance China and Russia thought they had at causing trouble in our back yard just took a huge hit, not to mention Iran and their Hezbollah tools.

2 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Trump could think this regime change thing is easy and try it elsewhere like Cuba or Iran. And controlling Venezuela means Rubio has the economic means to squeeze Cuba.

Good

2 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Also, Russia considers Zelenskyy to be illegitimate as does China with Taiwan’s President, so Trump just gave more ammo to our enemies.

Were they looking for ammo? Did they need ammo? Does it matter? There is not a classroom, nor courtroom, that exists where such "ammo" matters.

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13 minutes ago, immamac said:

I didn't see enough to decide if gru yet. Banhammer is ready if i see more though.

When did you turn into Merrick Garland?

9 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

And Monroe himself didn’t have the ability to back it up and outsourced it to the British. It’s always been a general warning to outside the hemisphere powers that the United States considered itself the regional hegemon with a lot of leeway on what that means tied to ambition and capabilities.

You seem to be confusing explanation with endorsement, so I’ll abandon this exchange here.

Calling a military operation a "masterclass" isn't an endorsement? I'd love to know what dark turn your life took in the past few months but ... well, actually, I don't care.

Moscow reports appear to have been inaccurate and it looks like the Veep got an offer she couldn’t refuse.

2 minutes ago, MagicSoccerSpray said:

Were they looking for ammo? Did they need ammo? Does it matter? There is not a classroom, nor courtroom, that exists where such "ammo" matters.

What? There is tons of times in history where nations look for ammo/cover for their actions. You think Collin Powell traveled to the UN with yellowcake on his mind for no good reason?

Just now, Chopper said:

Calling a military operation a "masterclass" isn't an endorsement? I'd love to know what dark turn your life took in the past few months but ... well, actually, I don't care.

“We really appear to have learned from the Russians” is not an endorsement.

Odds on Europe deploying troops to Greenland in the next few months? I suspect we're sliding right into the Proud Tower territory right now whether we like it or not. A lot of long standing grudges/territorial desires about to get going.

I don't like the precedent this sets either, but the "this gives China an opening for Taiwan" crowd needs to tone it down. If they're going to take Taiwan, they're going to do it whether or not we ousted Maduro. I would bet that the US has signaled to China that it will live with a Chinese takeover of Taiwan once those chips are made in the US. Similarly, I wouldn't be shocked if Russia acquiesance on this was an off the record part of the Ukraine negotiations. None of this is "fair" or "right", but arguably all of it is in our long term interests, and I can live with that on the spectrum of Trump's historical decisionmaking.

3 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

“We really appear to have learned from the Russians” is not an endorsement.

"I’m realizing that everything about this from the operation to the PC ro the “law enforcement” angle is a master class in hybrid warfare.

Lots of growth opportunities for people to write think pieces on US gray zone tactics"

Apparently I misinterpreted you, and I apologize. Based on the above, I took your explanation as, basically, "creating plausible deniability is good."

2 minutes ago, Keef said:

I don't like the precedent this sets either, but the "this gives China an opening for Taiwan" crowd needs to tone it down. If they're going to take Taiwan, they're going to do it whether or not we ousted Maduro. I would bet that the US has signaled to China that it will live with a Chinese takeover of Taiwan once those chips are made in the US. Similarly, I wouldn't be shocked if Russia acquiesance on this was an off the record part of the Ukraine negotiations. None of this is "fair" or "right", but arguably all of it is in our long term interests, and I can live with that on the spectrum of Trump's historical decisionmaking.

Illegal behavior by a presidential administration is wrong, whether it's domestic or international, and it's in none of our best long-term interests. I realize you're in Spain and don't particularly need to gaf about what goes down in the US but the concept of law shouldn't be so difficult to get your head around.

Edited by Chopper
typos

16 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Also, Russia considers Zelenskyy to be illegitimate as does China with Taiwan’s President, so Trump just gave more ammo to our enemies.

Both of those things were true before this action in Venezuela. Russia and China don't need more "ammo," or justification for their war against Ukraine or actions against Taiwan. Russia has already been admonished by almost every country in the world outside their direct allies, and China regularly ignores the UN with their 9-dash line, militarization of the SCS islands, and more. They're not waiting on the U.S. to "normalize" action against another country, they're actively engaging in it now. The only thing stopping Russia is their own ineptness/arrogance and a surprisingly strong defense put up by Ukraine and western arms, and for China the only thing slowing them down is their own military readiness to actually successfully perform a cross-strait invasion, as well as the U.S. backstop of Taiwan.

It's laughable to think that if China could conquer Taiwan by force tomorrow that they'd hold back and say "Yeah, but international law and norms say that this just isn't right. Let's not do that."

53 minutes ago, El Mas Chingon said:

Venezuelans happy. People here should be too. Get over yourselves for a day.

lol Trump hates those people

9 minutes ago, Keef said:

I would bet that the US has signaled to China that it will live with a Chinese takeover of Taiwan once those chips are made in the US. Similarly, I wouldn't be shocked if Russia acquiesance on this was an off the record part of the Ukraine negotiations.

Gene Wilder Nonsense GIF by MOODMAN

8 minutes ago, Keef said:

I don't like the precedent this sets either, but the "this gives China an opening for Taiwan" crowd needs to tone it down. If they're going to take Taiwan, they're going to do it whether or not we ousted Maduro. I would bet that the US has signaled to China that it will live with a Chinese takeover of Taiwan once those chips are made in the US. Similarly, I wouldn't be shocked if Russia acquiesance on this was an off the record part of the Ukraine negotiations. None of this is "fair" or "right", but arguably all of it is in our long term interests, and I can live with that on the spectrum of Trump's historical decisionmaking.

It takes some real magical thinking to look at the history of US forcing regime change and the incompetence of the current admin and believe that this move is in our long term interests.

9 minutes ago, Keef said:

I don't like the precedent this sets either, but the "this gives China an opening for Taiwan" crowd needs to tone it down. If they're going to take Taiwan, they're going to do it whether or not we ousted Maduro. I would bet that the US has signaled to China that it will live with a Chinese takeover of Taiwan once those chips are made in the US. Similarly, I wouldn't be shocked if Russia acquiesance on this was an off the record part of the Ukraine negotiations. None of this is "fair" or "right", but arguably all of it is in our long term interests, and I can live with that on the spectrum of Trump's historical decisionmaking.

China controlling Taiwan and Russia controlling Ukraine is in our long term best interests?

5 minutes ago, Chopper said:

Illegal behavior by a presidential administration is wrong, whether it's domestic or international, and it's in none of our best long-term interests. I realize you're in Spain and don't particularly need to gaf about what goes down in the US but the concept of law shouldn't be so difficult to get your head around.

While we're at it, I'd also like to return to the pre-NIL era, only this time without SEC schools paying players under the table. Players can then really play for the love of the game and their university.

21 minutes ago, Keef said:

I live in Spain and there are a shit ton of Venezuelans refugees here. They all despise Maduro. He has cratered the country (GDP is down 80% or something), imprisioned and murdered thousands, promised free elections in exchange for sanctions relief then engaged in one of the most brazen election thefts of all time. All the while (at an absolute minimimum) facilitating some pretty signficant drug/cartel activitiy and helping other countries avoid sanctions with Venzeuelan oil.

I am about as stringent an isolationist as you will find. But no one is going to shed a tear around the world for Maduro and it's pretty incredible to me that he continually acted as he has while sitting on the world's largest oil reserves. You'll see some bland "concerned" comments from the usual suspects, but a lot of silence and a lot of quiet agreement that this may have been for the best.

I hate that we'll have folks involved in the transition, but if you are committed to taking the step of pluking Maduro from his bed, zero US involvement in the transition is probably a messier/more de-stabilitzing result. He is no friend to the US or the globe, I'm glad he's gone, and I hope to god we don't fuck up the transition.

I'm not sure, Immaac and the cloak room think it was "illegal".

21 minutes ago, Chopper said:

We murdered fishermen,

Drug smugglers until they're pulled over, then they're fisherman.

21 minutes ago, Chopper said:

the indictment of Maduro is legally pathetic, and we arrested his wife because... why exactly?

The indictment is longstanding, involves multiple members of his family, and has been upheld through multiple administrations, both Republican and Democrat.

21 minutes ago, Chopper said:

Bombing a country that posed no threat to the US, along with killing people in small boats so we could pound our chest, takes zero strategic planning.

Sorry for your loss, T&Ps for the arrested.

7 minutes ago, Surly Bevo said:

What? There is tons of times in history where nations look for ammo/cover for their actions. You think Collin Powell traveled to the UN with yellowcake on his mind for no good reason?

Does that world exist in the year 2025? Public opinion matters of course, just not as much as you would like it to.

1 minute ago, Chopper said:

"I’m realizing that everything about this from the operation to the PC ro the “law enforcement” angle is a master class in hybrid warfare.

Lots of growth opportunities for people to write think pieces on US gray zone tactics"

Apparently I misinterpreted you, and I apologize. Based on the above, I took your explanation as, basically, "creating plausible deniability is good."

Nothing he wrote is out of line, or untrue. This is the way wars are fought, and foreign policy is advanced now. No more declarations of war, or multilateral international law unfortunately.

Just now, Chopper said:

Illegal behavior by a presidential administration is wrong, whether it's domestic or international, and it's in none of your best long-term interests. I realize you're in Span and don't particularly need to gaf about what goes down in the US but the concept of law shouldn't be so difficult to get your head around.

I mean, I don't like it, but I also think you're being naive to "realpolitik" considerations. The US is the most powerful country in the world. We are NOT the most free society or the most just. That's propoganda and no one else around the world thinks that. We often act as an empire (which we are), protect our long-term interests, and generally act transactionally. This is what is occurring.

1 minute ago, Sawbonz said:

China controlling Taiwan and Russia controlling Ukraine is in our long term best interests?

I don't think either is "good", but I'm certainly not willing to go to war with China over Taiwan, nor am I willing to go to war with Russia over Ukraine.

4 minutes ago, Horn of Gabriel said:

Both of those things were true before this action in Venezuela. Russia and China don't need more "ammo," or justification for their war against Ukraine or actions against Taiwan. Russia has already been admonished by almost every country in the world outside their direct allies, and China regularly ignores the UN with their 9-dash line, militarization of the SCS islands, and more. They're not waiting on the U.S. to "normalize" action against another country, they're actively engaging in it now. The only thing stopping Russia is their own ineptness/arrogance and a surprisingly strong defense put up by Ukraine and western arms, and for China the only thing slowing them down is their own military readiness to actually successfully perform a cross-strait invasion, as well as the U.S. backstop of Taiwan.

It's laughable to think that if China could conquer Taiwan by force tomorrow that they'd hold back and say "Yeah, but international law and norms say that this just isn't right. Let's not do that."

Missing the point IMO, the U.S. and allies invented these concepts because they help us more often than not and blatantly throwing them away in favor Russian-style gibberish takes a tool away from us that they didn’t have available. It wasn’t a silver bullet but it was helpful to have available which is why even GWB worked so hard to try and reconcile the concepts.

21 minutes ago, MagicSoccerSpray said:

I'm also not such a dumb political cultural warrior

22 minutes ago, MagicSoccerSpray said:

Latin American leftism generally, have been a bleeding sore in the western hemisphere for far too long

Are You Sure About That John Cena GIF by MOODMAN

34 minutes ago, immamac said:

I didn't see enough to decide if gru yet. Banhammer is ready if i see more though.

His first posts were in the crypto thread pumping Bitcoin lol. He fits the profile pretty perfectly

Just now, Keef said:

I mean, I don't like it, but I also think you're being naive to "realpolitik" considerations. The US is the most powerful country in the world. We are NOT the most free society or the most just. That's propoganda and no one else around the world thinks that. We often act as an empire (which we are), protect our long-term interests, and generally act transactionally. This is what is occurring.

I don't think either is "good", but I'm certainly not willing to go to war with China over Taiwan, nor am I willing to go to war with Russia over Ukraine.

Tell me what logically follows legitimizing the illegal actions of dictators in Russia and China by mimicking them in the US

2 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Tell me what logically follows legitimizing the illegal actions of dictators in Russia and China by mimicking them in the US

In case you haven't been paying attention, we've been doing this sort of thing for quite some time now. So, whatever "legitimization" you're concerned about occured decades ago.

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Yeah no shit we've been doing this a long time.

What's baffling is someone can hold that thought and "American interventionism will solidify Latin America!" at the same time. gtfo

bafkreigjjzqjj5iv2yrzqvjwouj6dypshc7pb3o

Just now, Sawbonz said:

Tell me what logically follows legitimizing the illegal actions of dictators in Russia and China by mimicking them in the US

Flip it around. We know what is happening by de-legitimatizing their illegal actions, it's in our face right now. Russia illegally invades Ukraine without giving a fuck about international laws and norms, and China spends each day coming up with new ways to isolate and bully Taiwan on their way towards invasion.

This is realpolitik. Sternly worded letters from the UN aren't cutting it, and sanctions are bypassed.

11 minutes ago, Horn of Gabriel said:

It's laughable to think that if China could conquer Taiwan by force tomorrow that they'd hold back and say "Yeah, but international law and norms say that this just isn't right. Let's not do that."

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you’re not a complete moron and ask what, in your opinion, is the main factor in China’s thinking they cannot conquer Taiwan by force tomorrow, and how our doing the exact thing to Venezuela that they want to do to Taiwan will impact their reticence to proceed?

Guys don’t worry it’s going to be great for our interests and Venezuelans when Trump turns over the country to whoever funnels him the most money through crypto

Just now, Chopper said:

Yeah no shit we've been doing this a long time.

What's baffling is someone can hold that thought and "American interventionism will solidify Latin America!" at the same time. gtfo

bafkreigjjzqjj5iv2yrzqvjwouj6dypshc7pb3o

This is also the most naked and open regime change we've pulled off in probably a century.

At least Iraq had some other cover, thin as it proved to be.

But the point that regime change never works out well remains through it all.

2 minutes ago, Keef said:

In case you haven't been paying attention, we've been doing this sort of thing for quite some time now. So, whatever "legitimization" you're concerned about occured decades ago.

We’ve been kidnapping foreign leaders and their spouses and charging them with US crimes while saying we will “run” their countries going forward for quite a while now?

2 minutes ago, elguapo said:

Guys don’t worry it’s going to be great for our interests and Venezuelans when Trump turns over the country to whoever funnels him the most money through crypto

Counter point: Cody Campbell and the Tech NIL fund stand to be some of the biggest losers.

"What the President has done is unconstitutional, reckless, and will have far-reaching effects well beyond last night’s strikes."

“The President has provided no legitimate justification for these unauthorized strikes nor any kind of long-term strategy for how he will deal with the fallout of this slapdash regime change—and he must now explain his unhinged statements that we will ‘run’ Venezuela. The American people can see for themselves how dishonest and cynical this entire venture is—we’re supposed to believe drug trafficking warrants the use of military force to topple a foreign government in one instance and then merits a full pardon for the former President of Honduras who was lawfully convicted of the same crime? And we should all be eyes wide open about the potential for self-enrichment and corruption by the Trump administration when it comes to profiting off Venezuela’s oil. This is not about law and order, because if it were, Trump wouldn’t have withheld these plans from Congress, and it is not about actually helping Americans suffering from drug addiction.

“Maduro is a corrupt and oppressive dictator—that much has always been clear. But what stops China or Russia from making similar claims about foreign leaders they don’t like and then using military force to overthrow them? This kind of careless use of military force threatens serious global instability—and none of that is good for Americans here at home.

“There needs to be serious oversight and accountability here. Trump administration officials must come before Congress and publicly explain their rationale and—importantly—just what exactly they think happens next here. Republican leaders should not just shrug their shoulders and let the President bomb whoever he wants on hardly more than a whim—they must join Democrats in pressing for serious accountability and insisting that the use of military force be authorized by Congress.

“If this escalates into a prolonged conflict of any sort, you can bet it won’t be Trump’s family putting their lives on the line—the American people do not want to be dragged into another costly foreign war with no real justification. It is outrageous for a President who is tanking our economy here at home to suggest that the American taxpayer spend a fortune to ‘run’ another country while doing nothing to make life better in America. I opposed the war in Iraq from the outset—and the parallels here are glaring. I will similarly oppose any war in Venezuela. I refuse to put the lives of servicemembers at further risk, and I refuse to saddle our children with yet another costly war for no good reason.”

https://www.murray.senate.gov/senator-murray-responds-to-trumps-illegal-military-operation-address-to-the-nation/

Edited by Chopper

6 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Missing the point IMO, the U.S. and allies invented these concepts because they help us more often than not and blatantly throwing them away in favor Russian-style gibberish takes a tool away from us that they didn’t have available. It wasn’t a silver bullet but it was helpful to have available which is why even GWB worked so hard to try and reconcile the concepts.

You're not wrong, and I'm not a fan of moving away from NATO etc. Unfortunately, through incompetence and atrophy, the world has moved away from following "international law" and the consequences of not doing so have severely weakened. In the current day, we must advance our interests as best we can.

5 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Tell me what logically follows legitimizing the illegal actions of dictators in Russia and China by mimicking them in the US

What logically follows if we don't? What happens if we don't advance our interests, in the name of optics and legalities, while the Chinese and Russians do? We weaken ourselves just so we feel better about it?

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